Vergil - Portrait of a Warrior

[AgentRedgrave]

@Chancey289 I write too, and I think the character's fine

 

[Foxtrot94]

@Chancey289 I write too, and I think the character's fine

Cause it is. He has more layers of personality than just brooding and they are in DMC3. But the people who don't like him will always be blind to that no matter what. That's why I can't give Chancey's opinion (with all the respect) a lot of credit.

 

[AgentRedgrave]

Cause it is. He has more layers of personality than just brooding and they are in DMC3. But the people who don't like him will always be blind to that no matter what.

Clearly, anyway I don't think I said it yet in any posts. But I think your analysis of the character was perfect, I had a strong urge to play some DMC3:SE immediately after I read it.

 

[Gel]

I know now why there isn't a answer about honor code and samurai code, because it never existed until recently.
So Vergil doesn't need honor at all.
"The samurai originated during the Heian period (794-1185 A.D.) in Japan (‘samurai’ is derived from ‘saburafu’, which means “to serve”). They were local strongmen employed by military nobles who brought them along as servants on trips to the capital. Despite what the typical modern samurai image may lead you to believe, there was nothing loyal, chivalrous, or noble about these men. If anything, they were ambitious warriors who sought to enrich themselves above all else. They were not loyal to their masters by decree of some unwritten honour code (read: bushido or “the way of the warrior” didn’t exist at this point), nor were they inherently good by any stretch of the imagination. They were loyal only because they were rewarded for their services, and their allegiances could shift at any time. The court provided strong monetary incentives to those who put down rebellions, and thus samurai would eagerly carry out orders no matter what moral strings were attached, often killing their fellow warriors. The samurai at this point in time were nothing but employed thugs; mercenaries with no calling to king or country."
Taken from:https://thegoldeneggs.wordpress.com/

 

[Veloran]

So we agree in disagree.

Just a question:
When you talk about a code of honor related to samurais, is this the code you're talking about?
Because if it is, Vergil doesn't fit on it.

Seven Virtues of Bushidō (as envisioned by Nitobe Inazo)
The Bushidō code is typified by seven virtues:

• Righteousness (義 gi?)
• Courage (勇 yū?)
• Benevolence (仁 jin?)
• Respect (礼 rei?)
• Sincerity (誠 makoto?)
• Honour (名誉 meiyo?)
• Loyalty (忠義 chūgi?)

Associated virtues

• Self-Control (jisei?)
• Filial piety (孝 kō?)
• Wisdom (智 chi?)
• Fraternal Respect (悌 tei?)

Vergil would probably consider himself to embody at least eight or nine of those eleven virtues. Not sure just how correct he'd be, but yeah.

Vergil is always just presented as this petty one dimensional Saturday morning cartoon villain. This is Capcom we're talking about here after all. That's pretty much their forte. Hell, look at their games. I believe myself, and other writers here can do better than they could ever do.

In the hands of a better writer, Vergil could be a more interesting character. Instead, he's there to fulfill a very trite archetype and nothing more. The original games could never even keep a consistent character arc. At least the latest game has an arc for these characters. It establishes things. Is it the best I've ever seen? F#ck no. There's a lot of things I would have personally done differently. But it's competent at the very least and does its job in a game like this.

And yea, Vergil in DMC 3 still isn't honorable. He's just a selfish, petty, d!ckhead. He has complete disregard for anyone he deems inferior and is willing to sacrifice anything for means to an end. If you look up the word honorable in the dictionary, Vergil sure as hell doesn't live up to that quota. To put it bluntly, some people here seriously have no idea what they're talking about when it comes to defending this accusation. Gel, I wouldn't even worry about it.

Why are you always such an incredible buzzkill?

Conversation conversation conversation, then BAM "No it sucks completely shallow totally worthless everything everyone's said is wrong!"

C'mon man.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

I've said it many times, and I'll say it again; even with this new supplemental information from UMvC3, Vergil has still only ever been depicted in DMC3 as a very one-dimensional "screw everyone, get power" character. It's great to hear more of that motivation, and Foxy's examination (still great, beeteedubz) still certainly shows off just how horrible and "screw everyone, get power"-y he is. He cares about no one, is not above using them for his own gain, and has no patience for those in his way, even his own brother.

He's not honorable in any stretch of the word, least of all not just because he prefers not to use guns. Honor requires a great deal of respect, both given and demanded.

Vergil is certainly a fun character, and a decent foil to the equally not-so-deep Dante, but neither are ever going to be shining examples of great writing. They use the barest minimum of melodrama to keep the audience interested. That's what melodrama does, it holds up in the moment, but rarely upon deeper reflection, and Devil May Cry characters are not intricately deep. Not that they really need to be.

 

[Foxtrot94]

Clearly, anyway I don't think I said it yet in any posts. But I think your analysis of the character was perfect, I had a strong urge to play some DMC3:SE immediately after I read it.

Thx. Although it wasn't that much of an effort since I remember DMC3 like it was yesterday LOL

But yeah I probably even missed something, but ya know, no work is perfect, right? At least, if I find something I missed I can always edit the post (perks of being Gold hehehe...).

Tbh I'd like to do something like this for more characters but unfortunately I don't have a lot of times, with trainings, university, and soon, The Witcher 3! Ha, that's gonna kill my social life I tell ya!

 

[Foxtrot94]

Update: I found my original post to end a little abruptly so I edited it adding a couple paragraphs.

 

[Bazilican]

@Chancey289 I write too, and I think the character's fine

I think it lacks what the fans hype him as.

Cause it is. He has more layers of personality than just brooding and they are in DMC3. But the people who don't like him will always be blind to that no matter what. That's why I can't give Chancey's opinion (with all the respect) a lot of credit.

You mean like with DmC Vergil, right? Or our we playing fan fave these days?

 

[Demi-fiend]

Or our we playing fan fave these days?

When did we ever stop?

 

[WolfOD64]

You know, I find all this talk about Vergil’s “redeeming qualities” and “honor” to be infinite sources of amusement. I remember encountering Vergil in DMC3, and he was one of the few good things to come out of that game. Were his motives and origins shrouded in the mist of lazy writing? Certainly. But throughout the time I saw him on-screen, he always came off as a raging ass-hole…cold-blooded, irredeemable, calculating, doing things that would shock most people or defy any empathic sentiments.

But honestly…that’s why I liked him. Because of how ridiculously-evil he was.

I never felt the need to justify anything Vergil did, or use my own nonsensical head-canon to paint a fictitious portrait about how “honorable” he is.

He didn’t have honor, or a code…something that was reflected really well about how dismissive he was about shedding the blood of a million innocent, bystanding humans to open the Hellgate, or slaughtering his own brother. He could impale Dante or backstab Arkham, or desecrate the freshly-slain corpse of Beowulf just to try out his fancy new gauntlets, and he wouldn’t so much as bat an eye-lash. He was vile, sadistic…wrapped up in his own narcisstic pipe dreams of being the perfect Demon. Hell, his preference for swords over guns just adds to his level of sadism if you ask me: he’s like those ancient Sith you hear about in old Star Wars lore who prefer a vibroblade over a lightsaber, because the bloodless dismemberment of a lightsaber isn’t “as rewarding or satisfying as the warm spray of blood off the steely edge of a vibroblade.”

Villains can be fun to watch because they’re easy to sympathize with or side with over the protagonist, but sometimes you like them because they’re so despicable.

That was always the main appeal of Vergil to me: being deliciously despicable. The only thing the character was really missing was some actual, clearly-presented motives (and no, an illusion in ONE panel of the DMC3 manga doesn’t count, since a completely different writer handled that, instead of the one who conceived the scenarios and dialogue for DMC3 with completely different intentions), and eventually, DmC would deliver on that in spades, far more than the original series ever did.

 

[DarkSlayerZero]

Villains can be fun to watch because they’re easy to sympathize with or side with over the protagonist, but sometimes you like them because they’re so despicable.

That's why I like Gilver.

 

[Veloran]

That's why I like Gilver.

And that's why the first novel isn't canon.

 

[Demi-fiend]

I never felt the need to justify anything Vergil did, or use my own nonsensical head-canon to paint a fictitious portrait about how “honorable” he is.

You know what this reminds me of? Bad Boy Syndrome.

It's like when someone stays with their abusive partner simply because they still believe they can "bring out the good in him."

That sort of logic can be dangerous in the wrong hands.

 

[Chancey289]

You know, I find all this talk about Vergil’s “redeeming qualities” and “honor” to be infinite sources of amusement. I remember encountering Vergil in DMC3, and he was one of the few good things to come out of that game. Were his motives and origins shrouded in the mist of lazy writing? Certainly. But throughout the time I saw him on-screen, he always came off as a raging ass-hole…cold-blooded, irredeemable, calculating, doing things that would shock most people or defy any empathic sentiments.

But honestly…that’s why I liked him. Because of how ridiculously-evil he was.

I never felt the need to justify anything Vergil did, or use my own nonsensical head-canon to paint a fictitious portrait about how “honorable” he is.

He didn’t have honor, or a code…something that was reflected really well about how dismissive he was about shedding the blood of a million innocent, bystanding humans to open the Hellgate, or slaughtering his own brother. He could impale Dante or backstab Arkham, or desecrate the freshly-slain corpse of Beowulf just to try out his fancy new gauntlets, and he wouldn’t so much as bat an eye-lash. He was vile, sadistic…wrapped up in his own narcisstic pipe dreams of being the perfect Demon. Hell, his preference for swords over guns just adds to his level of sadism if you ask me: he’s like those ancient Sith you hear about in old Star Wars lore who prefer a vibroblade over a lightsaber, because the bloodless dismemberment of a lightsaber isn’t “as rewarding or satisfying as the warm spray of blood off the steely edge of a vibroblade.”

Villains can be fun to watch because they’re easy to sympathize with or side with over the protagonist, but sometimes you like them because they’re so despicable.

That was always the main appeal of Vergil to me: being deliciously despicable. The only thing the character was really missing was some actual, clearly-presented motives (and no, an illusion in ONE panel of the DMC3 manga doesn’t count, since a completely different writer handled that, instead of the one who conceived the scenarios and dialogue for DMC3 with completely different intentions), and eventually, DmC would deliver on that in spades, far more than the original series ever did.

I love ridiculously evil villains too, those can be fun. But I still just never hopped aboard the Vergil train. I don't think he looks cool or really owns the self aware cheese I loved about this series in the first place. Which is mainly in DMC 1. He's just participating in Itsuno's badly done melodrama and plots that can have jarring tones. He just bores me. Vergil kind of reminds a little bit of Wesker in a way, but Wesker is at least more fun. He's a Saturday morning cartoon too, but there's this charm to someone like him. And at least a silly villain like him is a little more rounded. Vergil is the trite anime archetype I've seen plenty of times already being a very avid anime fan. It's just lame.

I'm not saying the new Vergil is up there when it comes to villains for me. There are plenty of other villains I have a lot more of an affinity more. Especially in comic books. Just old Vergil is lame :/. Dante was always the more fun of a character, well at least from DMC 1 because that was the definitive Dante.

 

[Foxtrot94]

@WolfOD64 were you talking with me when you talked about "justifying his actions" and considering him honorable? Because I take my distance from both of those (you may be surprised, since I'm a fan of the character, but I don't think he's "honorable"). In fact I didn't insert that anywhere in my original post, not even in the end where I made that sort of "roundup" of the various aspects of his personality.

In response to Chancey... meh. Obviously it's up to personal preferences, but I've always preferred Vergil over Dante, although I love em both (I'm sorry but he IS charming as a character, you not liking him doesn't mean anything). Always preferred his badass persona and his layers of personality and his style, except when he's Nero Angelo of course.
Especially considering that his personality blends with his style of fighting and vice versa, obviously. Something that I've never seen done better in any other Devil May Cry, unfortunately, not even the other Itsuno directed ones, which is really good when it comes to this kinda stuff in an action game.
Tbf, I've never even seen the level of epicness and atmosphere of his last fight against Dante again in a Devil May Cry game, and I hope they'll nail it again in a hypothetical DMC5, or DmC2, or whatever it comes next.

 

[Bazilican]

My problem with Vergil was always that people over-hyped him.

People always said that Vergil was this deep, honorable, badass swordsman who had dark troubles, but believed in his will for power to be the justifiable reason for his goal and it was a cover up to hide the fact that he let his mother die.

Naw...I only saw HALF of that.

What I saw was not a deep thinking individual who had prioritized himself with what he truly wanted, I saw a brat in a man's body who wanted power just to have power and was willing to kill anyone and anything to get to it. That honor thing fell off for me when he started using beuwolf as a punching bag, stabbed Arkham in cold blood (yeah, Arkham was gonna betray him, but he could've ended him with a single cut of his head), and even tried to kill his own brother. That's NOT honor. That's sociopathic.
And the guilt over his dead mother seemed to fly over my head because there was too much angst coming from the boy in blue that I could barely see that so-called guilt. All I saw was him sucking his father's cock in trying to be just like him, but seemed to have a selective memory in remembering that SPARDA. WAS. A GOOD GUY. He protected humanity and sacrificed his power, while Vergil here's killin' anything that's in his way for that power. And it probably wouldn't work for him because he's evil. Sparda's power is for good people not assholes. So honestly, Vergil's the foolish one here.
And ask for goals, all I saw was "I WANT DADDYZ POWA!" and that was about all there was to him. Yeah being buddy buddy with his brother whom he tried to kill earlier was a bit of an opening up for him, but even then, it was just a means to an end to get the power that he himself had no idea what he was going to do with.

So yeah, I WILL say new Vergil, despite him being a giant rich, preppy, douchebag who was embarrassing as a final boss and the final villian, (you can tell I really hate nVergil) at least had an ACTUAL character, and an actual goal, and even had a transformation towards this goal.

So for me it's like this;

Old Vergil's goal: Get power to be like father. kill anything in my way even if its my brother.
New Vergil's goal: Kill demon king, rule humanity with brother as rightful kings. (After downfall)Get more power to kill Dante, and rule humanity as the next Demon King.

 

[Foxtrot94]

seemed to have a selective memory in remembering that SPARDA. WAS. A GOOD GUY. He protected humanity and sacrificed his power, while Vergil here's killin' anything that's in his way for that power. And it probably wouldn't work for him because he's evil. Sparda's power is for good people not assholes.

Yep. That's the point Veloran made somewhere earlier an I agree with him.

 

[DarkSlayerZero]

And that's why the first novel isn't canon.

And? Like that's suppose to invalidate my reasons for liking him, it doesn't.

 

[WolfOD64]

And that's why the first novel isn't canon.

Which is hilarious, because that novel comes the closest in terms of Kamiya's vision for Vergil as a character than Morihashi's ever did.

It's like when someone stays with their abusive partner simply because they still believe they can "bring out the good in him."

That sort of logic can be dangerous in the wrong hands.

Believe me, I know that feeling really well. As a fan of the Berserk manga, I live in a world where deluded fan-girls sincerely believe that this loathsome creature is capable of redemption.

I wouldn't say Vergil's nearly as bad, but given how little about his motivations we know (or at least, however little has been revealed on-screen) combined with the questionable acts of "honor" he displays throught DMC3, he really doesn't have a lot of redeeming qualities about him.

I love ridiculously evil villains too, those can be fun. But I still just never hopped aboard the Vergil train. I don't think he looks cool or really owns the self aware cheese I loved about this series in the first place. Which is mainly in DMC 1. He's just participating in Itsuno's badly done melodrama and plots that can have jarring tones.

You can thank Bingo Morihashi for that abrupt change in tone. He's been responsible for the skull-clutching Final Fantasy-esque melodrama for the past three games, and as bad as it's gotten considerably worse with each passing entry, DMC3 was really the lowest point.

Every time Vergil had the chance to contradict Dante's utter stupidity, his presence would be marred with lines like:

"My sincerest apology brother. I was so anxious to see you, I...couldn't concentrate on preparations for the bash."
"I'll just more of your [blood] to undo Daddy's little spell."​

My liking for Vergil has more to do with him being a more sizable alternative to Dante. I had either the painfully-underdeveloped villain with *some* cool moments and a few interesting qualities, or quite possibly the most aggravating video game character ever conceived.

I chose Vergil out of necessity.

Vergil kind of reminds a little bit of Wesker in a way, but Wesker is at least more fun. He's a Saturday morning cartoon too, but there's this charm to someone like him. And at least a silly villain like him is a little more rounded.

Oh, dude...Wesker's so much more fun to watch in comparison. He's so hilariously-evil with his Matrix-esque "slowly-removes-and-puts-back-on-glasses" routine, and his David Bowie voice...

But then, again, that has more to do with the fact that Resident Evil's plot can't be regarded as serious...and despite how hard its Japanese writers try to make it serious, its American writers have a blast rolling out the Saturday-morning cheese-wheel.

The same unfortunately can't be said of Devil May Cry, which ninja-leaps at every opportunity to rear its anime-melodrama head and preach some BS about "devils never crying", while two of the most 2-dimensional caricatures clashing over a non-existent conflict to a downpour of angsty rain and a wailing chorus.

Vergil is the trite anime archetype I've seen plenty of times already being a very avid anime fan. It's just lame.

Knives from Trigun, Rau Le Creuset from Gundam SEED, Ichiru from Vampire Knight, Diva from Blood+...
There are enough "evil twins" or "evil siblings" just an eye-color, hairstyle, or attire color away from looking like the main protagonist. It was old when they did it, and it was borderline ANCIENT by the time DMC3 did it in 2005.

Dante was always the more fun of a character, well at least from DMC 1 because that was the definitive Dante.

W-W-What? You mean when Dante was a character and not a one-note carbon copy of Deadpool?

HERESY. Guards, escort this witch to the courthouse so we can proceed with his preliminary burning--I mean, trial.

@WolfOD64 were you talking with me when you talked about "justifying his actions" and considering him honorable? Because I take my distance from both of those (you may be surprised, since I'm a fan of the character, but I don't think he's "honorable").

You? No, actually.

I encounter that extremely-popular misconception everywhere I go on the DMC Forums, going back to my noob days on Devil'sLair.com. There are people who seem to operate under the assumption that Vergil is some kind of misunderstood, deeper anti-hero that warrants love and understanding, instead of...well, you know. A villain.

But as seen from your lengthy analysis, you seem to fall out of that metaphorical short bus.