Let's Talk About That Combat! DMC & DmC.

[SSSSwagmasterMLGDmCplaya]

Alright, for the sake of argument, I'll consider the terms "Soft-Lock" and "Hard-Lock", even though they aren't official terms with a clear definition (searched through Google with no success). I'm saying this now so I don't have to repeat myself.
So I see you guys referring to Hard Lock as targeting an enemy and keeping track of it so long as you hold down a button (lock on button). Soft Lock seems to be referred as the targeting system that is present in DmC, also in DMC3 and DMC4 without using Hard Lock.

Sorry I can't conform to the definition you made up >.> Who gives a sh!t what it's called? I'm not gonna argue semantics because that's just absurd, but they all have functional lock-on mechanisms that focus your attacks. It just so happens that DmC's isn't as restrictive and requires different methods to use and override.

A lot care what it's called, that's why people create definition for stuff. Anyways, explain your position as to why DmC's Soft Lock isn't as "restrictive", because last time I checked, you weren't forced to use Lock On in DMC4 unless you wanted to use a directional input move or moves like Devil Bringer (which only requires a few successive button presses which can last as long as your average single button press). Nor is giving you more moves restrictive to me.

Laughable developers....noone said anything about them nor asked how you feel about them. I said the people who've worked on DMC 4's combat are the same ones who did DmC's combat.

Did you lose track of what you were talking about already? You said that I have to look at interviews to see that "Soft Lock" and "Hard Lock" exist:

If you do not, then you need to listen to the interviews about DmC's combat and on top of that replay the older DMCs and don't use hardlock...what does it revert to? SOFTLOCK.

Also look at yourself being a hypocrite:

DMC 4 has how many weapons? How experienced was it's Dante? The thing that ****es alot of people off when I say this is......if DmC had DMC 4's weapons...it's combat would be deeper than DMC4's. Now this is just the weapons being there in DmC's combat style. So to me, that makes it all the more exciting to hear about a new DmC. Because it's combat system is the best I've ever had in a hack n slash

I never asked on what you think DmC will be like if it had DMC4's weapons.

No, you don't get it. I want my combat to be smooth, my character to do things smoothly

I didn't ask you for your opinion on how you want your combat to be.

No, you don't get it. The animation is what creates this fluid transition from moves. You can't say DMC 4 has that.

No, you don't get it. I want my combat to be smooth, my character to do things smoothly, and if you can't comprehend what I mean, I want to feel like I'm controlling an actual person not some robot that looks like it's malfunctioning everytime I go to do a move!This very feature is one of the reasons that makes DmC's combat better than DMC4's combat.

No, you don't get it.
DMC4 has fluid transitions between moves too. Little experiment I encourage you to try on both games without turbo (since I doubt you even did such thing, given the claim):

Load up DmC. You don't even need to try this for every weapon, just attack with the first hit of Rebellion and follow it with the first hit of Arbiter.
Notice his legs and coat, they "teleport" and don't flow along naturally, like the movements of someone in real life. This applies to most combinations of moves outside of the list of combinations in Training Mode (list on the left of the screen that shows your inputs, like a fighting game).

Now Load up DMC4 and play a level with Dante. Attack with the first hit of Rebellion, follow right after with the first hit of Gilgamesh, then the first hit of Lucifer, then the first hit of Yamato (using the DarkSlayer Style).
Take a close look at Dante's coat and his feet/legs. Notice how the coat flows fluidly, without no pause or sudden "teleports" like in DmC? Notice how his legs do the same.

If you cant notice these, I suggest you record this at a framerate of at least 60fps (preferably 90fps or above because radical movements can have frames skipped by recording) and go frame by frame, as I cant expect someone that claims DMC4 has no fluid animations to have quick eyes. You should try Debug Mode for DMC4, since it allows you to slow down the game and see it lot more clearly. But whatever, I didn't want to argue about animations (if I did, I would've brought this a long time ago).

Wow, you seriously don't? Ok. DMC 4 has more weapons. If DMC 4 had DmC's weapons, it wouldn't be as deep because of the weapon limit. You'd have, what? Two aerial moves that can't be cancelled without resetting an animation (per weapon) so that means no fluid transitions.

Weapon limit? What? There's room for more inputs on the controller, even if that means you'll have to toggle L3 and R3 together to temporarily replace DMC4s weapons with DmC4's weapons mid-gameplay. There are tons of other ways.
Oh and you "reset" the animations of moves in DmC too when cancelling, just try jump cancelling moves like aerial rave and see it's animation being "reset" right after the jump, or Aerial Rave then follow it up with Aerial Flush. Again, I don't see how animation fluidity doesn't affect the depth of combat, so what you said here is irrelevant and I wont discuss again.

The people who made DMC4 said that DmC has soft lock. Where did you think we got OUR information from?

From what I've witnessed from you today, out of thin air, however I know you don't represent the rest. Therefore I'd like to see evidence of developers claiming DmC has Soft Lock. It doesn't really matter anyways, now that I've said I'll be considering these terms.

Ok then, how about we do this. Sorta focused and really focused. You know, like in shooters, aim down the sights (ADS) or hip fire.

What I'm trying to say is....in DmC DMC and any other game like those. There's a lock on system. Do you understand where we're coming from now? There's a LOCK ON SYSTEM you were completely oblivious of.

Oh and if you're just saying, it still doesn't make sense, then you need to think about fighter jets and how they soft lock before hard locking.

Again, Soft Lock and Hard Lock aren't even offical terms. Not even google can give me an official definition, let alone one for gaming Soft Lock and Lock On. Show me otherwise.

Responding to you takes way too long. I don't think you'll see a full response from me again.

 

[The Final Offer]

I just came in here to say, Derpiest of the derp.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

A lot care what it's called, that's why people create definition for stuff. Anyways, explain your position as to why DmC's Soft Lock isn't as "restrictive", because last time I checked, you weren't forced to use Lock On in DMC4 unless you wanted to use a directional input move or moves like Devil Bringer (which only requires a few successive button presses which can last as long as your average single button press). Nor is giving you more moves restrictive to me.

Pretty much everything you just mentioned. The classic lock-on system...

Restricted movement; slowing your pace, and locking the shoddy evasive maneuver to pivoting around one target. This can be detrimental when surrounded and attempting to avoid an attack, only to lock onto a different enemy and either not perform an evasive roll at all, or still end up rolling into the attack you intended to avoid. The evasion problem was somewhat remedied with the evasion system in DMC2 and DmC, and with the Trickster Style in the later classic games, but the style itself forced you to relegate the Style button to its use.

The movement restrictions then play into the rest of the restrictions, like directional inputs, and how you need to be locked onto something in order to do something like High Time. DmC's proprietary Special attack button made it so much easier for things like split-second turning launches and such. It's all small beans here and there, but it adds up. DMC had so many mainstays of Resident Evil and it took them five games to actually make it something of itself, instead of using a bunch of old mechanics from RE that just weren't necessary.

It's true that it gives you more options from a base control scheme, but there's better ways to do it in the end. Classic DMC gave us the Style system to give us more options on top of the R1+Direction stuff, but then DmC expanded upon it. The Style system, while it worked for what it was, was a clunky system - DmC streamlined the hell out of that stuff, putting all melee combos on the ground and air on the same button, making a proprietary Special Attack button for things like High Time and Helm Breaker, Gun Special for fancy firearm shenanigans, and a proprietary Evasion button to make dodging hassle-free.

And yes, DmC is missing a few things because they totally could have added in other directional inputs for aerial and Special moves, but DmC has a great foundation, built on what DMC is, without needing a bunch of old clunky controls from a bygone era.

 

[SSSSwagmasterMLGDmCplaya]

Restricted movement; slowing your pace

This is possibly the only point I've agreed to about Lock On. Changing Dante's running to strafing seems unnecessary. However, its a nuance when you count the fact that running during combat is almost useless since you other travel/movement options made for it, such as Trick Up, Dash, or Stinger into a Million Stab. Even in DmC, you usually move/travel with moves such Angel Evade (which is similar to Trickster Dash) or whips. And again, you can always let go of hard lock, which will leave you to soft lock, like in DmC.

This can be detrimental when surrounded and attempting to avoid an attack, only to lock onto a different enemy and either not perform an evasive roll at all, or still end up rolling into the attack you intended to avoid. Trickster Style in the later classic games, but the style itself forced you to relegate the Style button to its use

Its not Hard Lock's fault that you didn't preform a roll or that you rolled into an enemy's attack you intended to avoid. Those are your inputs, you could have easily done the opposite of rolling into an enemy's attack, which is to roll away from it.
Hell, whatever way you roll doesn't matter if its timed right, thanks to invincibility frames. Exactly like in DmC, you can roll towards an enemy's at the right moment and NOT get any damage. You can also jump and use invincibility frames, which is a lot more reliable than roll and you don't need to use Hard Lock for it. And as you said, Trickster also helps and covers more area in its evasive moves.

The movement restrictions then play into the rest of the restrictions, like directional inputs, and how you need to be locked onto something in order to do something like High Time. DmC's proprietary Special attack button made it so much easier for things like split-second turning launches and such. It's all small beans here and there, but it adds up.

So because it's "a lot easier" to do turning Hightimes in DmC than in the previous games, it makes Hard Lock more "restrictive"? No, it makes it slightly more difficult because you have to press more buttons instead of one, difficulty which is justified as it gives you more directional input moves.

It's true that it gives you more options from a base control scheme, but there's better ways to do it in the end. Classic DMC gave us the Style system to give us more options on top of the R1+Direction stuff, but then DmC expanded upon it. The Style system, while it worked for what it was, was a clunky system - DmC streamlined the hell out of that stuff, putting all melee combos on the ground and air on the same button, making a proprietary Special Attack button for things like High Time and Helm Breaker, Gun Special for fancy firearm shenanigans, and a proprietary Evasion button to make dodging hassle-free.

lol calling the style system clunky is the worst claim I've heard in this whole fiasco. There's literally nothing that makes style switching clunky, no recovery animations and you can switch during another move/attack.

DmC didn't expand upon this, it took a few steps back instead. For example, the once style button is now a button for special melee attacks only, whereas the style system in DMC4 allowed this button to not only have melee (Swordmaster) and gun specials (Gunslinger), but also allowed evasive (Trickster) and defensive abilities (Royalguard, which can also be offensive).
Since DmC used this button for melee only, it had to waste space and use a combination of buttons for Gun Specials and also had to waste one button (technically 2) for evasive moves aka dodges.
So the fact that this single button does more in DMC4 than in DmC shows that DmC didn't expand upon this button.

If you combine Hard Lock with Style Switching, you have plenty of space for more moves, something not even DMC4 took full advantage of. Also take into account that Hard Lock doesn't take away double taps on the analog stick like in DmC (for moves like Stinger or Streak), you'd have even more possibilities if this were to be used in the future, along with Hard Lock and Style Switching.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

This is possibly the only point I've agreed to about Lock On. Changing Dante's running to strafing seems unnecessary. However, its a nuance when you count the fact that running during combat is almost useless since you other travel/movement options made for it, such as Trick Up, Dash, or Stinger into a Million Stab. Even in DmC, you usually move/travel with moves such Angel Evade (which is similar to Trickster Dash) or whips. And again, you can always let go of hard lock, which will leave you to soft lock, like in DmC.

It's small things that can jack a combo, especially when you make only half a step instead of a full stride because of the Lock-on's slower movement. It's small, but by definition that's restrictive, and as someone who likes moving around a lot, that's a detriment to my playstyle that's very apparent. It might not be what other people experience given their playstyle, but I do experience it. It's a thing that exists.

And letting go of Hard Lock, while an option, still leaves you in a momentary transitioning stage, where Dante lowers his guns. While the locking and unlocking function itself is pretty instant, Dante lags for just a moment. Plus, by dropping out of Hard Lock, you lose access to your special attacks like High Time.

Its not Hard Lock's fault that you didn't preform a roll or that you rolled into an enemy's attack you intended to avoid. Those are your inputs, you could have easily done the opposite of rolling into an enemy's attack, which is to roll away from it.
Hell, whatever way you roll doesn't matter if its timed right, thanks to invincibility frames. Exactly like in DmC, you can roll towards an enemy's at the right moment and NOT get any damage. You can also jump and use invincibility frames, which is a lot more reliable than roll and you don't need to use Hard Lock for it. And as you said, Trickster also helps and covers more area in its evasive moves.

So, because the system does a poor job of orienting itself for me to properly target the enemy I wanted to in order to avoid its attack, that's my fault? It's the system that screwed me, making me do a regular jump with less i-frames than the side roll I was planning for.

Yes, Trickster mitigates that by being a Style built around evasion, but that doesn't help me if I'm not using Trickster.

This was in DMC3 mind you, not DMC4 where I could have tried to switch Styles and evade. DMC3 didn't have the same Hard Lock directional option that DMC4 did, and even then if it had been DMC4, having to break off of who I was currently targeting to point the Left Stick at the attacker, and then try and tilt to the side to roll, is a lot of split-second hassle. If the answer was to also attempt to change to Trickster, that just added way more hassle and more work for my left thumb.

I know full well that because it was my experience it's not something everyone experiences, but I experienced a very low point with the targeting system and how it handled itself because of that situation. The possibility for the system to f#ck up like it did does exist - it wasn't simply my fault, I didn't rack-a disciprine or something, it was my misfortune to experience probably one of the crappier points of that system.

So because it's "a lot easier" to do turning Hightimes in DmC than in the previous games, it makes Hard Lock more "restrictive"? No, it makes it slightly more difficult because you have to press more buttons instead of one, difficulty which is justified as it gives you more directional input moves.

Hitting Circle to launch someone in the air is not making you press more buttons. Holding R1 is restrictive to movement, and because you need to use R1 in order to access other abilities. The difficulty isn't really justified, considering that later on it was entirely possible to access those other abilities without the R1+Direction input.

lol calling the style system clunky is the worst claim I've heard in this whole fiasco. There's literally nothing that makes style switching clunky, no recovery animations and you can switch during another move/attack.

One way it's clunky in DMC4 (not so in DMC3 because you're segregated to one Style at a time) is because with all the sung praise for directional inputs with the left stick, your thumb is also asked to be used to switch Styles. To do what someone like Chaser does requires a great deal of dexterity that not everyone has. Overcoming the limitation of so much to be done with the left thumb by dexterity alone doesn't make the system itself any less difficult to use. That's part of what makes people like Chaser greater than the average player - that they're doing something that makes them above average.

Another way is that cycling through three weapons is never ideal, another way that DMC3 did better than its successor.

I've talked about it before, but DmC actually managed to take the best intentions of DMC4 and mix it with the ease of use in DMC3's systems. DMC3 was better because switching was strictly back and forth, you know with the tap of a button it's one thing or the other. However with that came the restrictions; two firearms, two melee weapons, and one Style. DMC4 offered access to more, but in doing so it made things a bit more of a complex. Switching Styles required the used of the same thumb necessary for both movement (and avoidance) and input for special attacks, and cycling through weapons is not exactly ideal in fast-paced combat, because there's room for error in cycling too far or not enough.

DmC took the idea of all-access from DMC4, but used it in a "one or the other" hotswap that DMC3 did so well. Switching to a different weapon is easy - you either hold a trigger for Angel of Demon mode (back and forth from Rebellion to, say, Osiris), or you're tapping the button to swap Osiris for Aquila. It's still jumping back and forth, but that's three weapons just from one mode that you have access to (Rebellion, Osiris, Aquila), and then it's continued for Demon mode. Firearms are the only ones that still requiring cycling between all three, which is a bummer.

It's a lot simpler, and a lot less clunky, especially when your left thumb doesn't have to worry about many directional inputs, and even then, they can be buffered quite well if you know what you're doing and plan ahead, which most high-end players do anyway.

DmC didn't expand upon this, it took a few steps back instead. For example, the once style button is now a button for special attacks for melee weapons only in DmC, whereas the style system in DMC4 allowed this button to not only have melee (Swordmaster) and gun specials (Gunslinger), but also allowed evasive (Trickster) and defensive abilities (Royalguard, which can also be offensive).
Since DmC used this button for melee only, it had to waste space and use a combination of buttons for Gun Specials and also had to waste one button (technically 2) for evasive moves aka dodges.
So the fact that this single button does more in DMC4 than in DmC shows that DmC didn't expand upon this button.

It didn't expand on the button because the button itself isn't the issue - it's the function it serves. Styles are pretty much obsolete in the old sense of being assigned to a single, proprietary button, when all the functions have been moved to more applicable and intuitive places. Swordmaster's moves are now on the Melee and Melee Special buttons, and ground and air combos are now intuitively on the same button. Non-combo, often verticality-based attacks are on the other.

Sure, in the classics it's easy enough to figure out that you have to use Circle for Aerial Rave in the air, and Triangle for a combo on the ground, but that just flies in the face of intuition; even Nero in DMC4 made a change with that!

Similarly, there's Shooting and the Gun Special, which fills the functions of normal and Gunslinger style moves. Trickster's abilities are move around to obvious areas - evasion is on evasion button(s), and gliding, an aerial function, is part of a combination for Angel (the lighter, air-oriented stance) and the jump button (the function that takes you to the air). Royal Guard's defensive to offensive functions were moved to an overall Parry system for perfectly timing an attack to stagger an enemy and immediately retaliate, and there's a power amp (a vague equivalent to Release) to Just Dodging.

The Styles were great and all, but it was a bunch of really cool functions put onto one button, when they could have done better at putting the functions all around the controller - something that DMC2 started and DMC4's Nero proved could still be done! At least with his combos all being on one button like they should be.

The point is that the functions of the Styles are what is important, not that they're all on one button. Which, while intuitive in and of itself (push dis button to do dat thing), is not as intuitive as expanding the functions to places where they make more sense - like all combos, ground or aerial, being on the same button.

It's clunky in some ways because it's not as intuitive as it could be, and it's curious that while Nero actually made the controls more intuitive, it went backwards once we started playing as Dante - but hey I guess that's what Dante is about in DMC4 zing~.

Certain "traditions of gameplay" just end up being more of a hindrance to progress in that way. DmC has a lot of potential with its controls, and it still delivers the same type of custom combo-oriented gameplay that DMC is known for. There's a lot of room to add more inputs and functions, but I guess they had to be a bit more conservative out of the gate. Hell, I'm not even adverse to DmC having a lock-on system like Dark Souls has, to go along with its subtle lock, or barring that even an actual marker on the main target.

 

[Demi-fiend]

Yep. It's all ur fault. Just another **** player. #troll

 

[SSSSwagmasterMLGDmCplaya]

It's small things that can jack a combo, especially when you make only half a step instead of a full stride because of the Lock-on's slower movement. It's small, but by definition that's restrictive, and as someone who likes moving around a lot, that's a detriment to my playstyle that's very apparent. It might not be what other people experience given their playstyle, but I do experience it. It's a thing that exists.

And letting go of Hard Lock, while an option, still leaves you in a momentary transitioning stage, where Dante lowers his guns. While the locking and unlocking function itself is pretty instant, Dante lags for just a moment. Plus, by dropping out of Hard Lock, you lose access to your special attacks like High Time.

I've already agreed that Lock On slows down Dante by making him walk, didn't I?
Letting go of Hard Lock doesn't make Dante lag for a bit, did you just make this up? This "transitioning" stage is has no recovery time. As soon as you let go of Hard Lock, you're able cancel it like you can with style switching animations. I've even tested this by slowing down the game to .1%. As I said before, you don't need to be in Hard Lock mode all the time, if you want to execute a move like Hightime, just tap the buttons required at the moment you need them, simple.

So, because the system does a poor job of orienting itself for me to properly target the enemy I wanted to in order to avoid its attack, that's my fault? It's the system that screwed me, making me do a regular jump with less i-frames than the side roll I was planning for.

The system didn't screw you, you screwed yourself. As soon as you Lock On and see the crosshair on an enemy, you should know what direction is right-left-forward-back, relative to Dante facing the enemy. The amount of i-frames is irrelevant, as both Jump and Roll have the i-frames active at the same time after the input, basically if you know how to time i-frames on a roll, you can also do it with a jump.

DMC3 didn't have the same Hard Lock directional option that DMC4 did, and even then if it had been DMC4, having to break off of who I was currently targeting to point the Left Stick at the attacker, and then try and tilt to the side to roll, is a lot of split-second hassle. If the answer was to also attempt to change to Trickster, that just added way more hassle and more work for my left thumb

You don't have to break of who you were currently targeting. If you're Hard Locked onto an enemy, and another enemy is to your left and going to attack, you roll to your right without having to target the attacker. And again, whatever way you roll or jump doesn't matter as long as you time it right.

How you think people like this don't get hit in one of the most aggressive rooms in DMC3? Because they time their jumps/rolls right, and they rarely use rolls to begin with:

Hitting Circle to launch someone in the air is not making you press more buttons. Holding R1 is restrictive to movement, and because you need to use R1 in order to access other abilities. The difficulty isn't really justified, considering that later on it was entirely possible to access those other abilities without the R1+Direction input

Again, you can use not use Hard Lock to run, then use Hard Lock when you need to execute a move like Hightime. If you press these buttons simultaneously, it'll be as fast as as a single button press, a frame or two slower at best.
"Later on" in DmC it was entirely possible to access abilities like Hightime without the use of Hard Lock, but at cost of less moves. By having no Hard Lock and giving Hightime a single button input, you remove Propshredder from Rebellion's skill list, moving it to Osiris'. If you had Hard Lock, Propshredder would still be in Rebellion's skill list, leaving space for an extra move for Osiris.
This means that the slight difficulty of executing Hightime from Hard Lock is justified as you're getting more moves.

One way it's clunky in DMC4 (not so in DMC3 because you're segregated to one Style at a time) is because with all the sung praise for directional inputs with the left stick, your thumb is also asked to be used to switch Styles. To do what someone like Chaser does requires a great deal of dexterity that not everyone has. Overcoming the limitation of so much to be done with the left thumb by dexterity alone doesn't make the system itself any less difficult to use. That's part of what makes people like Chaser greater than the average player - that they're doing something that makes them above average.

Of course not everybody has the amount of dexterity as Chaser or other good players. Why, because not everyone practices enough. No good player naturally picked up the controller and style switched flawlessly at his first time. Just because you're not dexterous enough to style switch doesn't make it clunky. Its like saying JC is clunky because I didn't practice enough. The irony is that you switch between weapons in DmC using the D-pad, but you're not calling that clunky.

Another way is that cycling through three weapons is never ideal, another way that DMC3 did better than its successor

Never ideal? The hell? It requires, again, practice to switch through these weapons flawlessly. Just watch Chaser's tutorial on DMC4 Dante and see the double weapon switching part. Again, ironic due to the fact that you have to switch through 3 guns on UP on the D-pad in DmC. Not only do you have three guns, but you also have them at the D-pad, like the styles you deem clunky, but at least you caught it quick:

Firearms are the only ones that still requiring cycling between all three, which is a bummer

which again, isn't clunky if you practice enough, though 3 weapons on the D-pad might be a bit ridiculous. Funny as they could have put a single gun such as Kablooey on Down on the D-pad, and leave the other two guns be. But what can I expect from people who decided to put dodge for 2 buttons.

DMC4 offered access to more, but in doing so it made things a bit more of a complex

Of course it makes things a bit more complex, the more options you get the more buttons or input combinations you need to access those options. This applies to games overall.

Switching Styles required the used of the same thumb necessary for both movement (and avoidance) and input for special attacks, and cycling through weapons is not exactly ideal in fast-paced combat, because there's room for error in cycling too far or not enough.

That error is not the game's fault, its yours. You practice in order to have style and weapon switching as muscle memory. A good player knows how many button presses he needs to get to a certain weapon because of practice.
Also, you don't even need to use your thumb, some players have used their damn index fingers to style switch and they play fine with practice (gameplay and hands are unsynced):

It's a lot simpler, and a lot less clunky, especially when your left thumb doesn't have to worry about many directional inputs, and even then, they can be buffered quite well if you know what you're doing and plan ahead, which most high-end players do anyway

BINGO. You see, players who style switch also buffer their styles during a move. They plan ahead, they look around to see if an enemy is getting ready to attack. Advanced DMC4 gameplay from different players show that they style switch during moves and plan ahead. They look around the screen and if they see an enemy showing attack cues, they switch to Royalgaurd, usually during a move animation and wait until the enemy attacks.

It didn't expand on the button because the button itself isn't the issue - it's the function it serves. Styles are pretty much obsolete in the old sense of being assigned to a single, proprietary button, when all the functions have been moved to more applicable and intuitive places. Swordmaster's moves are now on the Melee and Melee Special buttons, and ground and air combos are now intuitively on the same button. Non-combo, often verticality-based attacks are on the other.

Similarly, there's Shooting and the Gun Special, which fills the functions of normal and Gunslinger style moves. Trickster's abilities are move around to obvious areas - evasion is on evasion button(s), and gliding, an aerial function, is part of a combination for Angel (the lighter, air-oriented stance) and the jump button (the function that takes you to the air). Royal Guard's defensive to offensive functions were moved to an overall Parry system for perfectly timing an attack to stagger an enemy and immediately retaliate, and there's a power amp (a vague equivalent to Release) to Just Dodging.

The Styles were great and all, but it was a bunch of really cool functions put onto one button, when they could have done better at putting the functions all around the controller - something that DMC2 started and DMC4's Nero proved could still be done! At least with his combos all being on one button like they should be.
The point is that the functions of the Styles are what is important, not that they're all on one button. Which, while intuitive in and of itself (push dis button to do dat thing), is not as intuitive as expanding the functions to places where they make more sense - like all combos, ground or aerial, being on the same button.

It's clunky in some ways because it's not as intuitive as it could be, and it's curious that while Nero actually made the controls more intuitive, it went backwards once we started playing as Dante - but hey I guess that's what Dante is about in DMC4 zing~.

So Helmbreaker is a special attack and aerial rave is a normal melee attack, you do realize that styles can still be implemented, right? This swap doesn't expand on the style switching, it just modifies things to make it easier.

I don't think you got my point. Because there's no styles and style button, more space is wasted on the controller. DmC didnt do this and now it has it's own dedicated dodge button and Gun Specials are a
combination of inputs. The dodge button(s) wasted space, that button could have been used for another feature if it had style switching. The fact that a single button was able to give you so many moves left other buttons free for other features.

Certain "traditions of gameplay" just end up being more of a hindrance to progress in that way. DmC has a lot of potential with its controls, and it still delivers the same type of custom combo-oriented gameplay that DMC is known for. There's a lot of room to add more inputs and functions, but I guess they had to be a bit more conservative out of the gate. Hell, I'm not even adverse to DmC having a lock-on system like Dark Souls has, to go along with its subtle lock, or barring that even an actual marker on the main target.

Style Switching is recent, and Hard Lock has proven to give more moves to the player. DmC didn't bring anything to replace those two features with something better that gives more possibilities.


Your main reasoning behind Hard Lock and Style Switching being clunky is literally that you're execution is not good enough. Just because something is hard for you =/= clunky.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

I've already agreed that Lock On slows down Dante by making him walk, didn't I?
Letting go of Hard Lock doesn't make Dante lag for a bit, did you just make this up? This "transitioning" stage is has no recovery time. As soon as you let go of Hard Lock, you're able cancel it like you can with style switching animations. I've even tested this by slowing down the game to .1%. As I said before, you don't need to be in Hard Lock mode all the time, if you want to execute a move like Hightime, just tap the buttons required at the moment you need them, simple.

I'm not talking about DMC4, man. Style switching isn't a thing there. And even though the lag can be canceled, it's still there if what you intend to do doesn't allow for a certain skill. I've missed Wild Stomps and Free Rides by seconds before.

Also - who gives a sh!t about this!? Of course I can not use Lock-on, but the game wants me to, and many of the skills are only available from it. Slowing movement, having most skills accessible only when it's in use - that's restrictive, the only thing more restrictive is not letting us have access to more weapons and Styles at once, which was remedied in DMC4, but with a rough system.

The system didn't screw you, you screwed yourself. As soon as you Lock On and see the crosshair on an enemy, you should know what direction is right-left-forward-back, relative to Dante facing the enemy. The amount of i-frames is irrelevant, as both Jump and Roll have the i-frames active at the same time after the input, basically if you know how to time i-frames on a roll, you can also do it with a jump.

Come off it dude, in the middle of a giant clusterfuck, I got surrounded, the system locked me onto the wrong dude, and I just jumped straight into its attack instead of rolling away like I intended to, which is what f#cked me. I went into that split-second situation for a side roll and wound up with something that got me hit. I had planned in the moment to move one way, but because in that moment it locked me on to someone else, the input for my side roll was not taken as such.

I know what I was doing with the game, I've played DMC3 for a long-ass time, I know the system, but I also now know that the targeting system is not all that helpful when surrounded, and its priority mechanics suck ass sometimes. The game locked me onto the wrong target, which caused a problem, that's not me :/

And if I remember correctly, a jumps i-frames aren't active at the same time as a dodges...I'm not even sure they have the same amount of i-frames., as I remember rolls leaving you invulnerable for a lot longer (in frames, so to speak).

Again, you can use not use Hard Lock to run, then use Hard Lock when you need to execute a move like Hightime. If you press these buttons simultaneously, it'll be as fast as as a single button press, a frame or two slower at best.

One button is always going to be easier that a combination of them, that's just something you can't argue...

"Later on" in DmC it was entirely possible to access abilities like Hightime without the use of Hard Lock, but at cost of less moves. By having no Hard Lock and giving Hightime a single button input, you remove Propshredder from Rebellion's skill list, moving it to Osiris'. If you had Hard Lock, Propshredder would still be in Rebellion's skill list, leaving space for an extra move for Osiris.
This means that the slight difficulty of executing Hightime from Hard Lock is justified as you're getting more moves.

Y'know why DMC3 gave us so many fantastic abilities? To make up for the fact that we were restricted to two weapons of any type and one Style. Prop Shredder is damn near redundant in a game that allows access to everything. Prop Shredder wasn't a skilllost moved because of a lack of a Hard Lock, it was moved because of redundancy - because every skill has a different purpose and property.

Of course not everybody has the amount of dexterity as Chaser or other good players. Why, because not everyone practices enough. No good player naturally picked up the controller and style switched flawlessly at his first time. Just because you're not dexterous enough to style switch doesn't make it clunky. Its like saying JC is clunky because I didn't practice enough. The irony is that you switch between weapons in DmC using the D-pad, but you're not calling that clunky.

Not everyone can ever have that kind of skill either. And the lack of irony is that DmC's use of the D-Pad isn't nearly as taxing on the player's left thumb, because there's less actions requiring the use of directional inputs, and the entire use of the D-Pad in DmC is different from what DMC4 asks of the player.

Never ideal? The hell? It requires, again, practice to switch through these weapons flawlessly. Just watch Chaser's tutorial on DMC4 Dante and see the double weapon switching part. Again, ironic due to the fact that you have to switch through 3 guns on UP on the D-pad in DmC. Not only do you have three guns, but you also have them at the D-pad, like the styles you deem clunky, but at least you caught it quick:

which again, isn't clunky if you practice enough, though 3 weapons on the D-pad might be a bit ridiculous. Funny as they could have put a single gun such as Kablooey on Down on the D-pad, and leave the other two guns be. But what can I expect from people who decided to put dodge for 2 buttons.

Yeah I dunno why Down wasn't used as a scroll back with the guns, which would have been perfect. The thing is that requiring skill to master the controls is not good game design. Difficulty and challenge overcome through skill should come the gameplay, from the mechanics and systems themselves - like Jump Canceling, that's a mechanic. Wrestling with the controller is just plain silly.

Of course it makes things a bit more complex, the more options you get the more buttons or input combinations you need to access those options. This applies to games overall.

But you can totally have complexity without twisting your hands around the controller. Look at Bayonetta, the game has an immense amount of depth, and everything is intuitive and clean on the controller.

That error is not the game's fault, its yours. You practice in order to have style and weapon switching as muscle memory. A good player knows how many button presses he needs to get to a certain weapon because of practice.
Also, you don't even need to use your thumb, some players have used their damn index fingers to style switch and they play fine with practice

Using a different finger entirely is even more impractical and just furthers the point of how bad that is. It's fine that people found ways to overcome it, similarly my friends and I using "the claw" when playing Monster Hunter for camera control. Having the skill and forethought to overcome weird-ass controls is great! But that's also sh!t game design, the controls are not the game, they are a means to an end! If you need to master the controls, the controls become the game, and the barrier that keeps you from playing the thing on the screen. You should never have to fight with the controller. Ideally, you shouldn't even know the controller is present - that's why people ADVERTISE fluid and intuitive controls, because that's a good thing to have.

And for the most part DMC does have decent controls, but all the high-end stuff isn't, it requires the skill of wrestling with the controller. Jump Canceling takes practice to master a system, mid-combo Style switching takes practice to master the controller...only the former is fine.

So Helmbreaker is a special attack and aerial rave is a normal melee attack, you do realize that styles can still be implemented, right? This swap doesn't expand on the style switching, it just modifies things to make it easier.

Which when it comes to controls it should be. Styles are old and were simply a way to accentuate different playstyles, and many of games do that without relegating the player with one specific control scheme. Helm Breaker is counted as a "special melee attack" because it's not a combo move like Hacker or Aerial Rave.

If Styles can still be implemented in a way that's actually worthwhile and doesn't make the controls more convoluted more power to 'em, but as it stands, they made a game where Styles just aren't necessary. Especially when DMC4 removed functions of Styles for stuff that just wasn't worth it.

I don't think you got my point. Because there's no styles and style button, more space is wasted on the controller. DmC didnt do this and now it has it's own dedicated dodge button and Gun Specials are a
combination of inputs. The dodge button(s) wasted space, that button could have been used for another feature if it had style switching. The fact that a single button was able to give you so many moves left other buttons free for other features.

I would disagree, considering you can totally remove one of the evade keys for a dedicated Gun Special, and the point is that while Styles were on one button alone, they didn't need to be. I don't think you're getting my point - the functions were moved to other places, and made room for other functions on different buttons, and the whole became more intuitive. Rather than having to refer back to one specific button after switching that button's function with another button, you just do what you need to f#cking do. Wanna perform a ground combo that continues in the air?

DMC4 - Hit Triangle to start the combo, hold R1 and tilt the left stick back while pressing Triangle again to launch, better make sure you're in Swordmaster, press D-Pad Right if you aren't, then press Cricle (a different button than what started your combo) to continue it in the air.

DmC - Hit Triangle to start the combo, hold Circle to launch, then hit Triangle to continue the combo in the air.

There's an entire convoluted sequence simply removed for control simplicity. Why is this simplicity bad? Nothing of actual importance was lost! Skills that existed because of Styles and Lock-on inputs are still there. The only things missing are Royal Guard, whose functions were transferred differently, and some skills removed because of redundancy.

Style Switching is recent, and Hard Lock has proven to give more moves to the player. DmC didn't bring anything to replace those two features with something better that gives more possibilities.

Yes it did; it brought more intuitive controls. F#ck, NERO brought more intuitive controls, unfortunately, both DmC and Nero didn't do more with what they were - they both had/have a lot of potential and things that could have been added.

Your main reasoning behind Hard Lock and Style Switching being clunky is literally that you're execution is not good enough. Just because something is hard for you =/= clunky.

OOOOOOOOOOH SNAP! Except clunky controls are clunky controls, they are an obstacle to playing the game. My skill in the game has nothing to do with my skill at wrestling with a controller, and with my experience before, that's the fault of game's poor locking priority, not my skill as a player.

Sure, maybe if I was super-duper awesome and had incredible reaction time I could have adjusted to what happened, but even me needing to adjust to something the game's mechanics did wrong is the issue. I shouldn't have to be adjusting when the game f#cks something up. If the game had properly targeted the enemy I wanted at the time, nothing would have gone wrong.

Oh, I suppose that's another thing to mention - I wanted to target that enemy because it was a Vanguard, it finally reappeared and I wanted to continue killing it, but nooooooope, no such luck. I finished up doing an attack on a smallfry, and when the Vanguard got ready to attack, I tried to turn my attention to it, dodge its attack and then counter, but I didn't. It locked me onto something else for whatever reason, and I got hit.

 

[mrrandomlulz]

*sigh*
I can't post a TL;DR gif when it's perfect for this thread

 

[Blue_Rose]

I don't know why anyone is complaining about DmC's lock on. Sure it's sucky but all you have to do is jump and then attack those flucking bastards.

 

[The Final Offer]

Here's something.

DMC4 is an older game than DmC. All of DmC's secrets may not have been fleshed out.

So in other words, everyone is an amateur in DmC because, from what I've been seeing, more and more things get revealed with each combo video.

 

[Exejpgwmv]

I don't know why anyone is complaining about DmC's lock on. Sure it's sucky but all you have to do is jump and then attack those flucking bastards.

Your right, the auto-lock isn't exactly perfect.
Also, welcome to the forums.

Pro tip: This place is hell. :happy:

 

[SSSSwagmasterMLGDmCplaya]

I'm not talking about DMC4, man. Style switching isn't a thing there. And even though the lag can be canceled, it's still there if what you intend to do doesn't allow for a certain skill. I've missed Wild Stomps and Free Rides by seconds before.

Uhhh no, you mentioned you were talking about DMC3 in another paragraph responding to a different quote of mine. Either way, I was comparing this transitioning animation to that of switching styles in DMC4 because they don't have any uncancelable recovery time. Its like saying that a swing of Rebellion in DmC is clunky because there's a transition phase after the attack where Dante puts his sword in his back, which can be cancelled.

Also - who gives a sh!t about this!? Of course I can not use Lock-on, but the game wants me to, and many of the skills are only available from it. Slowing movement, having most skills accessible only when it's in use - that's restrictive, the only thing more restrictive is not letting us have access to more weapons and Styles at once, which was remedied in DMC4, but with a rough system.

You give a sh!t about this because you claimed that this transition phase made Hard Lock clunky, which it's not because you can cancel it.
Its quite funny you're saying that not using Hard Lock restricts you from abilities you wouldn't have without it, that's not restricting anything if its giving you more inputs for moves to use.

Come off it dude, in the middle of a giant clusterfuck, I got surrounded, the system locked me onto the wrong dude, and I just jumped straight into its attack instead of rolling away like I intended to, which is what f#cked me. I went into that split-second situation for a side roll and wound up with something that got me hit. I had planned in the moment to move one way, but because in that moment it locked me on to someone else, the input for my side roll was not taken as such.

Again, its you're fault because you didn't roll or jump at the right time (both have IE frames activated at the same time after the input). I've repeated myself a dozen times, it doesn't matter what way you roll, even if you roll to an attack you wanted to evade, so long as you time your roll/jump correctly you will not get hit.

And if I remember correctly, a jumps i-frames aren't active at the same time as a dodges...I'm not even sure they have the same amount of i-frames., as I remember rolls leaving you invulnerable for a lot longer (in frames, so to speak).

I know that they're activate at the same time. Although unsure, roll might have more i-frames, however it also has a recovery time at the end. If Roll has more i-frames, it would make you look even worse, since you got hit with a move that has more i-frames. Piece of advice= jump is the better move when it comes to avoiding damage, especially in a game where most enemies have limited air offensive.

One button is always going to be easier that a combination of them, that's just something you can't argue...

I've agreed to this before. My point was that the slight increase in difficulty to Hightime in the previous DMCs is justified because Hard Lock gives you more directional input moves.

Y'know why DMC3 gave us so many fantastic abilities? To make up for the fact that we were restricted to two weapons of any type and one Style. Prop Shredder is damn near redundant in a game that allows access to everything. Prop Shredder wasn't a skilllost moved because of a lack of a Hard Lock, it was moved because of redundancy - because every skill has a different purpose and property.

Again, wasting more space on the controller. It doesn't matter if PropShredder is redundant to you, you have an extra slot thanks to hard lock. You're pretty much encouraging less variety.

Not everyone can ever have that kind of skill either. And the lack of irony is that DmC's use of the D-Pad isn't nearly as taxing on the player's left thumb, because there's less actions requiring the use of directional inputs, and the entire use of the D-Pad in DmC is different from what DMC4 asks of the player

I said this before, anyone without a disability can have this skill with enough practice. The reason you have more actions requiring directional inputs is because there are more moves in DMC4 than in DmC, which again, difficulty is justified.

How about this, if I launched a red enemy in the air with Eryx's Uppercut, and I wanted to use Arbiter's Flush to launch it again, I would have to press right on the D-pad to switch weapons+ Demon Mode+ forward on the analog+ forward on the analog+ and melee button.
Its similar to having to launching an enemy with PropShredder in DMC4+ up on the D-pad to Trickster+ Lock On+ Forward on the analog stick+ style button. However, you have to move the analog twice in DmC, an input more than in DMC4. This slight difficulty is needless since the controller is not fully occupied, unlike DMC4.

By you're definition, that's clunky, and this could have been avoided with Hard Lock, which would've given you more moves too.

Yeah I dunno why Down wasn't used as a scroll back with the guns, which would have been perfect. The thing is that requiring skill to master the controls is not good game design. Difficulty and challenge overcome through skill should come the gameplay, from the mechanics and systems themselves - like Jump Canceling, that's a mechanic. Wrestling with the controller is just plain silly

Its not good game design if the controls are wasted needlessly or not fully used. In DMC4, the controls used up well with Dante, and they could have added more directional inputs thanks to Hard Lock.
In DmC, the controls weren't wasn't fully used and had less moves than DMC4, yet it as I explained above, you had a slight difficulty increase when it came to certain moves.

But you can totally have complexity without twisting your hands around the controller. Look at Bayonetta, the game has an immense amount of depth, and everything is intuitive and clean on the controller

It had insane depth, but not as much as DMC4. I wont get into an argument about this as this is already tedious and long.

Using a different finger entirely is even more impractical and just furthers the point of how bad that is. It's fine that people found ways to overcome it, similarly my friends and I using "the claw" when playing Monster Hunter for camera control. Having the skill and forethought to overcome weird-ass controls is great! But that's also sh!t game design, the controls are not the game, they are a means to an end! If you need to master the controls, the controls become the game, and the barrier that keeps you from playing the thing on the screen. You should never have to fight with the controller. Ideally, you shouldn't even know the controller is present - that's why people ADVERTISE fluid and intuitive controls, because that's a good thing to have.

I linked that video to disprove your point that Style Switching didn't require the use "of the same thumb" used for the analog stick as there are alternatives. Its great that you're still ignoring DmC's D-pad use, where guns require you to press Up 2 times at most, whereas in DMC4, you need to press any direction in the D-pad once to get the function you want. Even with Darkslayer Style, you simply see what style you're using and press it once.
As I stated, DMC4's difficulty to use the controls is justified as it used up the controller in exchange for more moves on the fly, and there's still space for more moves if you count charged moves and unused directional inputs.

And for the most part DMC does have decent controls, but all the high-end stuff isn't, it requires the skill of wrestling with the controller. Jump Canceling takes practice to master a system, mid-combo Style switching takes practice to master the controller...only the former is fine

Mastering the controller has always been part of gaming (unless the controls are exactly like the ones in another game you've played), the games with the most variety in moves taking the longest to master. Even when I played DmC, I had a hard time to get used to it's controller because I haven't mapped every button and combination to muscle memory. Same with Jump Cancelling, you have to memorize which button you have to press after a jump and at what time. Some people Jump Cancel using 2 thumbs, "battling with the controller".
That doesn't make the controls clunky, it makes the player unable to execute the high end stuff incompetent.

Which when it comes to controls it should be. Styles are old and were simply a way to accentuate different playstyles, and many of games do that without relegating the player with one specific control scheme. Helm Breaker is counted as a "special melee attack" because it's not a combo move like Hacker or Aerial Rave
If Styles can still be implemented in a way that's actually worthwhile and doesn't make the controls more convoluted more power to 'em, but as it stands, they made a game where Styles just aren't necessary. Especially when DMC4 removed functions of Styles for stuff that just wasn't worth it.

I agree that normal "combo" attacks would be great if put into a single button, but I'm arguing style switching, which can be implemented regardless of this change. And for the hundredth time, styles allow more moves without wasting dozens of other buttons like in DmC.

I would disagree, considering you can totally remove one of the evade keys for a dedicated Gun Special, and the point is that while Styles were on one button alone, they didn't need to be. I don't think you're getting my point - the functions were moved to other places, and made room for other functions on different buttons, and the whole became more intuitive. Rather than having to refer back to one specific button after switching that button's function with another button, you just do what you need to f#cking do. Wanna perform a ground combo that continues in the air?

When one button has all these properties, it saves other buttons from being wasted, giving more space for more moves. Its not more intuitive because the controller has space wasted needlessly with less moves, where styles organized everything into one style button that can have multiple directional inputs with the help of Hard Lock.

DMC4 - Hit Triangle to start the combo, hold R1 and tilt the left stick back while pressing Triangle again to launch, better make sure you're in Swordmaster, press D-Pad Right if you aren't, then press Cricle (a different button than what started your combo) to continue it in the air.

DmC - Hit Triangle to start the combo, hold Circle to launch, then hit Triangle to continue the combo in the air.

There's an entire convoluted sequence simply removed for control simplicity. Why is this simplicity bad?

Again, the complexity in DMC4's controls are justified because they gave you more moves, whereas DmC has less moves and has needless complexity in some areas as I said with Flush and Arbiter.

Nothing of actual importance was lost! Skills that existed because of Styles and Lock-on inputs are still there

Key word= actual importance. If you were remaking DMC4 to remove these "unimportant" moves, you'd have empty space for inputs these unimportant moves took up, so you'd be able to put in another move that you'd consider important. Basically, the style moves that have of no importance to you doesn't disprove the fact that styles gave you more space for input. You're arguing of the style moves themselves, not the style switching system.

The basic features that resemble styles in are still in DmC... at the cost of wasting space, which the style system avoided.

The only things missing are Royal Guard, whose functions were transferred differently, and some skills removed because of redundancy.

You mean parries right? You do realize you'd can still implement parries with style switching, and if this makes Royal Guard useless (which I don't see happening), Royal Guard can be replaced with another new style. Again, giving you more options.
And you're also missing darkslayer, which if you decided to call it unimportant, you can again put a new style to replace it.

OOOOOOOOOOH SNAP! Except clunky controls are clunky controls, they are an obstacle to playing the game. My skill in the game has nothing to do with my skill at wrestling with a controller, and with my experience before, that's the fault of game's poor locking priority, not my skill as a player.

Sure, maybe if I was super-duper awesome and had incredible reaction time I could have adjusted to what happened, but even me needing to adjust to something the game's mechanics did wrong is the issue. I shouldn't have to be adjusting when the game f#cks something up. If the game had properly targeted the enemy I wanted at the time, nothing would have gone wrong.

Oh, I suppose that's another thing to mention - I wanted to target that enemy because it was a Vanguard, it finally reappeared and I wanted to continue killing it, but nooooooope, no such luck. I finished up doing an attack on a smallfry, and when the Vanguard got ready to attack, I tried to turn my attention to it, dodge its attack and then counter, but I didn't. It locked me onto something else for whatever reason, and I got hit.

Pretty much, arguing that style switching and hard lock, are clunky because of your incompetence.
As I said, styles and hard lock gave you more possible inputs for moves than you would without them, and their difficulty to master increased because they have more possibilities. Whatever way you look at it, you'll need to use the D-pad once the rest of the controller can no longer hold more moves, saying that styles are clunky because your thumb uses the analog stick too is shooting yourself in the foot when DmC has weapon switching, including guns with 3 in one button.

I'm done here, I basically had to repeat myself more 20 times in this argument.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

You're ignoring the fact that skill overcoming controls is not a good f#cking thing for a game! Learning controls of a new game is one thing, but having to legitimately overcome the control scheme in order to do things that the game wants you to do is another. That's not a skill barrier in the game's mechanics, that's a skill barrier on the controller. Yes, skill will get you through that particular controller barrier at some point, but it's poor design for a game to ask that of its player. People walk away from games with sh!t controls!

Seriously dude, you're ignoring that the controller should never be part of a game's difficulty. You keep repeating yourself because you're explicitly ignoring how being good at a game's mechanics is different than being good at a game's clunky controls.

You're video didn't disprove anything, because it just showed that to be better at that sh!t you need to do something that no developer ever asks of the player - interacting with the controller differently than how they're made to be used. To have to use an index finger to accommodate for how the game otherwise preoccupies your thumb is goddamn absurd, and proves the point of clunky control! Asking the player to make use of controls by awkwardly pretzeling their hands on the controller is bad, it's clunky, it could be better!

And yes, I've said before that DmC uses the the D-Pad, but it's not anywhere near as demanding in a way as DMC4's for Style swapping. You're the one even talking about how skill will help a player overcome something like that, but DmC's is so much less intensive (there's one directional input type used), and it can be easily buffered to make up for what difficulty it would otherwise present.

What I experienced wasn't some faulty timing on my part, the only fault of mine was not noticing within a millisecond that I wasn't locked onto the right enemy when I was already hitting the inputs to roll, and instead of rolling around to the side of the enemy I wanted to, I just jumped, thanks to the game's poor priority system that didn't lock me onto what I wanted to.

But what the f#ck ever. Enjoy your stay.

 

[WolfOD64]

You're ignoring the fact that skill overcoming controls is not a good f#cking thing for a game! Learning controls of a new game is one thing, but having to legitimately overcome the control scheme in order to do things that the game wants you to do is another. That's not a skill barrier in the game's mechanics, that's a skill barrier on the controller. Yes, skill will get you through that particular controller barrier at some point, but it's poor design for a game to ask that of its player. People walk away from games with sh!t controls.

True enough. That's what ruined DMC3 for me. I spent more time trying to adjust to the unorthodox controls than facing any "challenge" the AI, bosses, or combat system posed.

 

[The Final Offer]

You're ignoring the fact that skill overcoming controls is not a good f#cking thing for a game! Learning controls of a new game is one thing, but having to legitimately overcome the control scheme in order to do things that the game wants you to do is another. That's not a skill barrier in the game's mechanics, that's a skill barrier on the controller. Yes, skill will get you through that particular controller barrier at some point, but it's poor design for a game to ask that of its player. People walk away from games with sh!t controls!

Seriously dude, you're ignoring that the controller should never be part of a game's difficulty. You keep repeating yourself because you're explicitly ignoring how being good at a game's mechanics is different than being good at a game's clunky controls.

You're video didn't disprove anything, because it just showed that to be better at that sh!t you need to do something that no developer ever asks of the player - interacting with the controller differently than how they're made to be used. To have to use an index finger to accommodate for how the game otherwise preoccupies your thumb is goddamn absurd, and proves the point of clunky control! Asking the player to make use of controls by awkwardly pretzeling their hands on the controller is bad, it's clunky, it could be better!

And yes, I've said before that DmC uses the the D-Pad, but it's not anywhere near as demanding in a way as DMC4's for Style swapping. You're the one even talking about how skill will help a player overcome something like that, but DmC's is so much less intensive (there's one directional input type used), and it can be easily buffered to make up for what difficulty it would otherwise present.

What I experienced wasn't some faulty timing on my part, the only fault of mine was not noticing within a millisecond that I wasn't locked onto the right enemy when I was already hitting the inputs to roll, and instead of rolling around to the side of the enemy I wanted to, I just jumped, thanks to the game's poor priority system that didn't lock me onto what I wanted to.

But what the f#ck ever. Enjoy your stay.

Hard lock on is just a bad idea in fast paced action games. It'll either twist or jerk the camera in awful ways that will discourage the player. I for one, got bored with not having a DMC on the horizon and went back to play the graphically superior DMC4 because it was the latest and I'm sure alot of people did the same thing for the same reason. We tried to be creative and it backfired creating this terrible taste for DMC4. Do you feel stylish doing the same thing over and over? Didn't think so.

 

[Exejpgwmv]

You're ignoring the fact that skill overcoming controls is not a good f#cking thing for a game! Learning controls of a new game is one thing, but having to legitimately overcome the control scheme in order to do things that the game wants you to do is another. That's not a skill barrier in the game's mechanics, that's a skill barrier on the controller. Yes, skill will get you through that particular controller barrier at some point, but it's poor design for a game to ask that of its player. People walk away from games with sh!t controls!

Seriously dude, you're ignoring that the controller should never be part of a game's difficulty. You keep repeating yourself because you're explicitly ignoring how being good at a game's mechanics is different than being good at a game's clunky controls.

You're video didn't disprove anything, because it just showed that to be better at that sh!t you need to do something that no developer ever asks of the player - interacting with the controller differently than how they're made to be used. To have to use an index finger to accommodate for how the game otherwise preoccupies your thumb is goddamn absurd, and proves the point of clunky control! Asking the player to make use of controls by awkwardly pretzeling their hands on the controller is bad, it's clunky, it could be better!

And yes, I've said before that DmC uses the the D-Pad, but it's not anywhere near as demanding in a way as DMC4's for Style swapping. You're the one even talking about how skill will help a player overcome something like that, but DmC's is so much less intensive (there's one directional input type used), and it can be easily buffered to make up for what difficulty it would otherwise present.

What I experienced wasn't some faulty timing on my part, the only fault of mine was not noticing within a millisecond that I wasn't locked onto the right enemy when I was already hitting the inputs to roll, and instead of rolling around to the side of the enemy I wanted to, I just jumped, thanks to the game's poor priority system that didn't lock me onto what I wanted to.

But what the f#ck ever. Enjoy your stay.

I can attest to this.
It took me three and a half plauthroughs to be able to overcome Dante's control scheme.
It's just that the cycling through 3 different melee weapons, guns, and 4 styles all at once made it very awkward and overbearing.

 

[The Final Offer]

I can attest to this.
It took me three and a half plauthroughs to be able to overcome Dante's control scheme.
It's just that the cycling through 3 different melee weapons, guns, and 4 styles all at once made it very awkward and overbearing.

I thought for a second as to why someone would want to become really good at this game. Lol

 

[Innsmouth]

Wait ... somebody actually had trouble with controls in original DMCs......lol...ok.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

"Trouble" is beholden to the individual player, but DMC4's controls were still awkward to a degree, curiously so after Nero streamline some of it.