Let's Talk About That Combat! DMC & DmC.

[Innsmouth]

Well for one, if I'm criticizing something I don't feel the need to sing its praises at the same time. For another, I didn't think I would have to explain myself.

Well that was only answer on your question why many think that you original DMC hater.

I've been over this - because high-end Style switching combos demand a lot from your left thumb, and it presents a barrier on the controller to figure out how you want to pass that barrier, either by learning to use your hand on the controller in a manner that should never be necessary, or by spending a lot of time with the controller itself. It might feel like progress being made towards in-game mechanics, but its improving how you interact with the controller, not the game itself.

Well it's just that to make progressive combos in any DMC you need training. And pretty much most combo based games require lot from your hand. Like NG 360° imputs for example. If you imply that in DmC it's not needed I'm not sure it's a good thing.

Well, the thing about that is Nero has a lot less thrown at the player, and you gradually learn more as you unlock mechanics like Tablehopper and greater Exceed control through upgrades. Dante transfers all the Proud Souls, and you buy a bunch of upgrades before you even start playing as him, meaning you don't get time to learn through normal gameplay (because there's so much of it), his control scheme is different in a few key ways than Nero (aerial combos and his Helm Splitter are utilized with different controls), and much of the access given to Dante is through that Style system with it's less-than-ideal placement on the controller.
Dante throws a lot at the player in a small amount of time, all at once, and when it comes to weapon switching it just ends up a little worse than how it began, creating another barrier on the controller.

I don't get how style system is "less.than-ideal" Using d-pad is pretty common for fast switching, and I would prefer DmC made use of it, instead of throwing everything on R1/L1

I dunno what to tell you man, that sounds really silly, considering how often we hold R1 in DMCs. It's not all that demanding, you're never holding more than one at a time, and the game gives you a lot of time to get used to it..

It was mostly required for shooting, but due to crowd control moves you didn't really need to hold it all the time + it wasn't combined with platforming.

So you mean holding R1 and pressing Triangle or Circle, or is it something else? Can't respond unless I know what you mean - us getting our sh!t confused betwixt our discussions isn't something I'm keen to have happen again.

I keep meaning the same: combination of triggers with pull/weapon/dodge.

I'd agree with you on DMC3, that's what made it so good - the fact that the Styles all had a lot going for them was great. DMC4 on the other hand feels a lot like a mash-up, and it felt like they didn't do anything to make it work better, they just took the DMC3 controls and added in Styles on the D-Pad, without thinking about how clunky it could end up.

In contrast to you I think adding style-switch made it more comfortable to switch between tactics instead of talking to lion statue or "in-between" level screen

I don't think I quite get this one. It seems like your two sentences don't match up.

I'm talking about how you said that DMC4 puts strain on your hand. I think DmC relies to much on L1/R1/L2/R2 .

I think not feeling the barrier is subjective to each person - depending on how easily they can pass that specific barrier on the controller. That's a skill thing, certain people are just quick learners in some regard. However, it's not about one's ability to overcome that barrier on the controller, which undoubtedly makes it not seem like much at all, but it's that the barrier exists in the first place.

I dunno. I think it highly depends on control types you usually use. Like for example some think that parry system is easy in MGR and some can barely use it.

 

[Jack500]

How about we say it's a matter of preference, and leave it at that ?

 

[ef9dante_oSsshea]

if it only worked that way jack , lol

 

[TWOxACROSS]

Well it's just that to make progressive combos in any DMC you need training. And pretty much most combo based games require lot from your hand. Like NG 360° imputs for example. If you imply that in DmC it's not needed I'm not sure it's a good thing.

Well of course it's required in DmC as well. However, there's certain things that are much easier to utilize based on the controls themselves. When something new, like an input is presented to you, if it's simple enough, you get it easily, like the NG 360° input you mentioned. "Oh, I just gotta spin the stick? I can do that". DMC4's high-end Style switching is much more demanding. "You want me to push the D-Pad when I'm already using the left stick for attacks and avoidance? That's gonna take some work" and that work is not about mastering the mechanic itself, it's mastering the control that lets you operate that mechanic - and that's where the clunkiness comes in. It's the simplicity of mastering that control, like pressing X to Jump, or Square to shoot - it's simple and your thumb is never not on those face buttons. Style switching, on the other hand (ha...get it?), demands action from the left thumb, which is already so used to nearly exclusively being on the left analog stick, unless you're using the D-Pad for menu navigation. It's not ideal.

I don't get how style system is "less.than-ideal" Using d-pad is pretty common for fast switching, and I would prefer DmC made use of it, instead of throwing everything on R1/L1

As mentioned above, because of the demands the game already has for the thumb that operates the left stick for attack avoidance inputs. It's not comfortable to move back and forth as quickly as high-end style-switching combos want, and requires a lot of getting used to (from the controller itself, not the gameplay). Yeah, the D-Pad is used a lot for switching things on-the-fly, but usually it's in the context of not having to go into a separate menu to access other options. Hotswapping is one thing, but hotswapping a multitude of times during combos is another, something more demanding.

DmC utilizes the triggers because...well, the fingers are well-suited for those buttons and in a manner of tapping and/or holding quickly. Plus, that's what we've done in every DMC to date, because it offered access to things we couldn't get without it, DmC just opened it up more.

It was mostly required for shooting, but due to crowd control moves you didn't really need to hold it all the time + it wasn't combined with platforming.

Shooting, launching, bullet juggling, dodging, rushing forward sword-first, rushing forward shotgun-first, shooting backwards with a shotgun, performing a flurry of kicks, uppercutting, teleporting toward an enemy, sending out dimensional slashes, starting an automatic sword combo, accessing a rocket launcher, a bigger rocket launcher, a laser cannon, releasing built up energy from a block, putting a bunch of exploding spears around you, detonating those spears...I'm sure I'm missing one or two things.

R1 did quite a bit more than let us shoot, which is the only thing on that list that doesn't need R1 to be done - unless it's DMC1.

And aren't you the one who debated with me that DmC's platforming was boring and easy? So now since DmC uses its Stance system for grappling mechanics during platforming, that's bad controls? Despite how easy it is to get used to?

I keep meaning the same: combination of triggers with pull/weapon/dodge.

Ah, okay. It's a lot to take in sure, but it's also presented to you bit by bit, so that it's much easier to incorporate into the control scheme you're already familiarizing yourself with. But, that's what function modifiers do, hold in a stance and it modifies functions. It's not really any different than the Style system, where one Style determines what Circle does. Yeah it's all on one button, but that can be unintuitive to a degree, and you have to remember what Style you're in to ensure pressing Circle yields the desired result. DmC's stance system modifies certain functions, but those functions are still very much in line the original - a dodge is always a dodge, a zoning technique is always a zoning technique, and a weapon attack is always a weapon attack.

In contrast to you I think adding style-switch made it more comfortable to switch between tactics instead of talking to lion statue or "in-between" level screen

Having that access freely is really nice, don't get me wrong, options are always nice. It's just that it created that less-than-ideal control scheme if you ever want to do anything more than switching Styles when standing around for a moment. High-end Style switch combos can easily end up a clusterf#ck if the proper training to navigate the controller hasn't been done.

And that's the key word here; controller. The phrase "proper training to navigate the controller" is why DMC4's controls have a clunky element to them, that's the barrier on the controller preventing proper play. A good control scheme will naturally make the controller disappear in the player's hands. The moment you have to think about what what button to press, that makes the controller a thing again.

I'm talking about how you said that DMC4 puts strain on your hand. I think DmC relies to much on L1/R1/L2/R2 .

I don't mean to say it puts a strain on my hands, that's not what I mean. It's just that it demands quite a bit out of an appendage that's already responsible for so much already (see the above list of all the things R1 is needed for). I had this example before; think of a fast-paced shooter that demands you be a crackshot by aiming with the Right Analog Stick, and shooting with Circle - you have to both aim precisely, but then take your thumb off the stick to shoot, and vice versa. It's not ideal because of the corrections in aiming you have to make at almost all times, between your movements, those of the opponent, and the recoil of a weapon.

I dunno. I think it highly depends on control types you usually use. Like for example some think that parry system is easy in MGR and some can barely use it.

It may depend on how the controller is set up. Some people can adapt really well to the controls a game uses, but there are certain things that are universally avoided because they're just a bad idea - those things that end up creating clunky controls.

 

[Dark Drakan]

Anymore of this silly childish arguing and calling out of other members with flamebait comments & obvious trolling and those member shall receive warnings. You know who you are (includes you @Frostmourne amongst others) I have had to read through 44 messages of this at start of my actual work shift and not something I enjoy doing at 6am.

Not narrowed down to these posts of course but these dont help either and can also be classed as spam. Far too many posts to go through and quote everyone who was in the wrong in this thread but you know who you all are. Spam like those at the bottom will receive warnings in future too.

Yep. It's all ur fault. Just another **** player. #troll

DATZ CUZ U NEED 2 EXPLAIN URSELF BETTER
CUZ U RZ T3H NOOBZ
I HAZ MAD SKILLZ. NAWT MY FAULT U CAN'T PLAY 4 SH!T.
WHAT'S CLUNKY 2 U IS AWESOMEZ 4 ME CUZ DMC4 IZ BALLZ 2 T3H WAAAAAALLLLLLLL.

MY GF IZ SO IMPRESSED WITH MY AWESOME, COMPLETELY USEFUL READY 4 T3H WORKFORCE TALENT.
U DUN NEED TEH COLLAGE PDH WHEN U HAZ DOCTORATE IN DMC4.
I'LL BET U NVR GET LAID EITHER CUZ UR JUS ANOTHER CASUAL SCRUB.

No, it's not.

My logic is infallible.
#troll

DURR DURR I CAN'T PUT THESE CLOTHES ON.

 

[Innsmouth]

Well of course it's required in DmC as well. However, there's certain things that are much easier to utilize based on the controls themselves. When something new, like an input is presented to you, if it's simple enough, you get it easily, like the NG 360° input you mentioned. "Oh, I just gotta spin the stick? I can do that". DMC4's high-end Style switching is much more demanding. "You want me to push the D-Pad when I'm already using the left stick for attacks and avoidance? That's gonna take some work" and that work is not about mastering the mechanic itself, it's mastering the control that lets you operate that mechanic - and that's where the clunkiness comes in. It's the simplicity of mastering that control, like pressing X to Jump, or Square to shoot - it's simple and your thumb is never not on those face buttons. Style switching, on the other hand (ha...get it?), demands action from the left thumb, which is already so used to nearly exclusively being on the left analog stick, unless you're using the D-Pad for menu navigation. It's not ideal..

I dunno. as somebody who frequently uses PS controller I really never had any sort of problems by using d-Pad with direction stick. Most FPSs utilizes same system, because nowadays that's what d-pad is for. For switching between weapons/modes, etc.

As mentioned above, because of the demands the game already has for the thumb that operates the left stick for attack avoidance inputs. It's not comfortable to move back and forth as quickly as high-end style-switching combos want, and requires a lot of getting used to (from the controller itself, not the gameplay). Yeah, the D-Pad is used a lot for switching things on-the-fly, but usually it's in the context of not having to go into a separate menu to access other options. Hotswapping is one thing, but hotswapping a multitude of times during combos is another, something more demanding.

I dunno. If you said you need to hold d-pad all the time, yes it would have been annoying. but you just need to memorise which direction linked to which button, which imo isn't that hard at all.

DmC utilizes the triggers because...well, the fingers are well-suited for those buttons and in a manner of tapping and/or holding quickly. Plus, that's what we've done in every DMC to date, because it offered access to things we couldn't get without it, DmC just opened it up more.

Fingers are not suited to be kept constantly on the back of controller, which you more or less need to do in DmC for 6+ hours. If they used tap-switching it would have been much better solution to "hold-up" trigger mechanic.

Shooting, launching, bullet juggling, dodging, rushing forward sword-first, rushing forward shotgun-first, shooting backwards with a shotgun, performing a flurry of kicks, uppercutting, teleporting toward an enemy, sending out dimensional slashes, starting an automatic sword combo, accessing a rocket launcher, a bigger rocket launcher, a laser cannon, releasing built up energy from a block, putting a bunch of exploding spears around you, detonating those spears...I'm sure I'm missing one or two things.

Well that's not even half of things which DmC utilized trigger for. Basically to use 2/3 weapons you constantly need to be grasping at back buttons.

And aren't you the one who debated with me that DmC's platforming was boring and easy? So now since DmC uses its Stance system for grappling mechanics during platforming, that's bad controls? Despite how easy it is to get used to?.

Platforming in DmC is barely overcomes QTE mechanic. It usually functions same: pull, jump, angel dash, repeat. If it was harder and required to be more precise or react faster, it would have been a mess due to amount of controls you need to memorize. What I wished for, is more intuitive controls, that could have been combined with more demanding platform sections (if they were required at all, which imo they don't)

Having that access freely is really nice, don't get me wrong, options are always nice. It's just that it created that less-than-ideal control scheme if you ever want to do anything more than switching Styles when standing around for a moment. High-end Style switch combos can easily end up a clusterf#ck if the proper training to navigate the controller hasn't been done..

But than again, so is trigger system in DmC. You can't say it's system is easy to pick for somebody who isn't comfortable with controller. s/he gonna be lost in trigger, dodges and grapples.

And that's the key word here; controller. The phrase "proper training to navigate the controller" is why DMC4's controls have a clunky element to them, that's the barrier on the controller preventing proper play. A good control scheme will naturally make the controller disappear in the player's hands. The moment you have to think about what what button to press, that makes the controller a thing again...

I never felt comfortable with DmC system, even after playing through game on all difficulties, I still occasionally mixed demon/angel pulls. Which theoretically shouldn't have happened at all, if control scheme was intuitive enough. Yes, you may say I didn't spend enough time to master it, but than we fall again in debate on which system is easier to get accustomed with.

I don't mean to say it puts a strain on my hands, that's not what I mean. It's just that it demands quite a bit out of an appendage that's already responsible for so much already (see the above list of all the things R1 is needed for). I had this example before; think of a fast-paced shooter that demands you be a crackshot by aiming with the Right Analog Stick, and shooting with Circle - you have to both aim precisely, but then take your thumb off the stick to shoot, and vice versa. It's not ideal because of the corrections in aiming you have to make at almost all times, between your movements, those of the opponent, and the recoil of a weapon.

but than again, many shooters using d-pad trigger for fast weapons switch, which you need to combine with directing weapon with left/right sticks. D-pad nowadays is there for fast swaps between items/weapons/etc.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

I dunno. as somebody who frequently uses PS controller I really never had any sort of problems by using d-Pad with direction stick. Most FPSs utilizes same system, because nowadays that's what d-pad is for. For switching between weapons/modes, etc.

But shooters never demand that you switch weapons or functions while standing in the middle of a firefight, the entire meta of shooters is to only ever engage in the firefight when you're going to shoot, using cover and hiding whenever you're not shooting. This means that your hands are never truly that occupied whenever switching is safest, you're idle.

DMC4's high-end Style switching specifically demands you switch during a fight when you're in the middle of a combo, using the Styles to keep the combo going. That is when you're pretty much at your most occupied.

I dunno. If you said you need to hold d-pad all the time, yes it would have been annoying. but you just need to memorise which direction linked to which button, which imo isn't that hard at all.

Yeah, holding the D-Pad the whole time would be even more clunky, but it's still clunky as it demands so much of your left thumb.

Fingers are not suited to be kept constantly on the back of controller, which you more or less need to do in DmC for 6+ hours. If they used tap-switching it would have been much better solution to "hold-up" trigger mechanic.

Actually...they really are suited for that. It's the entire reason why those buttons exist for your index fingers to play around with. And I would immediately come back to how you can't say that holding a shoulder button for a long time is bad when the classic DMC games demand pretty much exactly that.

But hey, maybe it's because I'm used to also playing shooters or something. However, there is still a difference, while you don't find anything hassling about DMC4's controls, like I and DmC's controls - DmC's controls still actually don't demand anything more than what a proper control scheme should. It doesn't demand nearly as much of your left thumb, or that you use your left index finger to achieve greater function on the D-Pad, and it utilizes the shoulder buttons how shoulder buttons have always been utilized.

Hell, DmC even lets you fully customize the controller so that it can fit whatever needs you want of it.

Remember, this isn't a skill thing, it's a controller thing. One's ability to overcome awkward controls is good, but the fact that something needs to be overcome on the controller in the first place is the entire problem.

Well that's not even half of things which DmC utilized trigger for. Basically to use 2/3 weapons you constantly need to be grasping at back buttons.

But see, all that stuff I listed explicitly requires "grasping at a back button" with R1, just as certain functions in DmC with the Stance triggers.

Yes DmC demands a lot of use out of the shoulder buttons, but it's demand is covering exactly what those buttons function for, and it never asks of something awkward from the fingers that interact with those buttons.

Platforming in DmC is barely overcomes QTE mechanic. It usually functions same: pull, jump, angel dash, repeat. If it was harder and required to be more precise or react faster, it would have been a mess due to amount of controls you need to memorize. What I wished for, is more intuitive controls, that could have been combined with more demanding platform sections (if they were required at all, which imo they don't)

I won't argue with this silly "it's a QTE" junk because it's not. A QTE is a QTE. you have a full range of being able to do whatever the hell you want during platforming moments, it just so happens that only one thing is going to help you pass, like so many other platforming segments in games.

The thing is that you talked about how easy platforming and using the button combinations was, you can't go back on your word and say that it was more complicated than you initially made it out to sound.

But than again, so is trigger system in DmC. You can't say it's system is easy to pick for somebody who isn't comfortable with controller. s/he gonna be lost in trigger, dodges and grapples.

I never felt comfortable with DmC system, even after playing through game on all difficulties, I still occasionally mixed demon/angel pulls. Which theoretically shouldn't have happened at all, if control scheme was intuitive enough. Yes, you may say I didn't spend enough time to master it, but than we fall again in debate on which system is easier to get accustomed with.

Getting lost on what functions do what is a player problem, not a control problem. Just as if I complained that I could never quite remember which D-Pad button activated which Style in DMC4 - that's on me as a player to memorize, and it's super damn simple, because you can see the indicators quite easily. DmC only has two modifier stances, and if you mix up Lifts and Pulls, that's just entirely on you, considering it gets you used to one before the other, so you can easily remember which does which.

but than again, many shooters using d-pad trigger for fast weapons switch, which you need to combine with directing weapon with left/right sticks. D-pad nowadays is there for fast swaps between items/weapons/etc.

Sure, and I talked about that at the start of my post - shooters don't demand that you access functions on the D-Pad when standing in the middle of enemy fire, while you're hands are extremely occupied with not dying and killing enemies; it's all supposed to be done when behind cover, when you're both safe and idle for a moment.

 

[Innsmouth]

But shooters never demand that you switch weapons or functions while standing in the middle of a firefight, the entire meta of shooters is to only ever engage in the firefight when you're going to shoot, using cover and hiding whenever you're not shooting. This means that your hands are never truly that occupied whenever switching is safest, you're idle.

eh. If it's shooter where you can sit idly in the corner it's already not fast paced shooter.

DMC4's high-end Style switching specifically demands you switch during a fight when you're in the middle of a combo, using the Styles to keep the combo going. That is when you're pretty much at your most occupied.

Thanks to lock-on it's not require from you to constantly hold on left stick.So you can easily switch between styles, while keep hitting the target.

Actually...they really are suited for that. It's the entire reason why those buttons exist for your index fingers to play around with. And I would immediately come back to how you can't say that holding a shoulder button for a long time is bad when the classic DMC games demand pretty much exactly that.

I never felt that older DMC required it non stop.

But hey, maybe it's because I'm used to also playing shooters or something. However, there is still a difference, while you don't find anything hassling about DMC4's controls, like I and DmC's controls - DmC's controls still actually don't demand anything more than what a proper control scheme should. It doesn't demand nearly as much of your left thumb, or that you use your left index finger to achieve greater function on the D-Pad, and it utilizes the shoulder buttons how shoulder buttons have always been utilized

As for shooter part, you may be right, because I for one barely play them, and rarely waste lot of time on them. It demand much more from your memory than DMC4 ever does, simply because you have essentially 2 triggers positioned on the same place symmetrically(R2/L2) that you need fully utilize for pretty much everything on DmC..

Hell, DmC even lets you fully customize the controller so that it can fit whatever needs you want of it.

it still doesn't rid it of awkward button-holding.

Remember, this isn't a skill thing, it's a controller thing. One's ability to overcome awkward controls is good, but the fact that something needs to be overcome on the controller in the first place is the entire problem.

Well I felt I need to overcome complexity of DmC's controls to intuitively use it. So it completely depends to what person accustomed for.

But see, all that stuff I listed explicitly requires "grasping at a back button" with R1, just as certain functions in DmC with the Stance triggers..

It's completely different. R1 had one function. While DmC has basically 3 different functions for each trigger, which is exactly what annoys me in it's control scheme.

I won't argue with this silly "it's a QTE" junk because it's not. A QTE is a QTE. you have a full range of being able to do whatever the hell you want during platforming moments, it just so happens that only one thing is going to help you pass, like so many other platforming segments in games.

Actually...nope. you don't. If you won't demon pull it, you fall. If you don't angel dash it, you fall. simple as that.

The thing is that you talked about how easy platforming and using the button combinations was, you can't go back on your word and say that it was more complicated than you initially made it out to sound..

It's 2 completely different things. Easy, unneeded platforming, that serves only to make levels look longer, has nothing to do with annoying trigger system

Getting lost on what functions do what is a player problem, not a control problem. Just as if I complained that I could never quite remember which D-Pad button activated which Style in DMC4 - that's on me as a player to memorize, and it's super damn simple, because you can see the indicators quite easily. DmC only has two modifier stances, and if you mix up Lifts and Pulls, that's just entirely on you, considering it gets you used to one before the other, so you can easily remember which does which.

It doesn't removes need to get accustomed with it. Let's say so: I get accustomed to DMC4 pretty fast, as opposing to DmC. If DmC was harder, it probably took me much more time to get through all difficulties than it actually had.

Sure, and I talked about that at the start of my post - shooters don't demand that you access functions on the D-Pad when standing in the middle of enemy fire, while you're hands are extremely occupied with not dying and killing enemies; it's all supposed to be done when behind cover, when you're both safe and idle for a moment.

Let's see: Resistance uses it for quick access to grenades. Uncharted uses it for quick access to weapons. GoW uses it for quick access to magic. In all this cases D-Pad wasn't obstacle.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

eh. If it's shooter where you can sit idly in the corner it's already not fast paced shooter.

Even Vanquish, the fastest-paced shooter on the planet, requires you to make use of idle time and hiding to survive, and that's a game that uses the D-Pad for weapon switching. Call of Duty even still demands you not run out in the open for too long unless you know exactly where something is to kill it. All shooters are like that, don't be out in the open during a firefight unless you're shooting over moving to a better vantage point.

Thanks to lock-on it's not require from you to constantly hold on left stick.So you can easily switch between styles, while keep hitting the target.

Except for when you're using R1 to lock-on and access a special move...

I never felt that older DMC required it non stop.

And neither does DmC. Stance switching might be more

As for shooter part, you may be right, because I for one barely play them, and rarely waste lot of time on them. It demand much more from your memory than DMC4 ever does, simply because you have essentially 2 triggers positioned on the same place symmetrically(R2/L2) that you need fully utilize for pretty much everything on DmC..

So then...you can't tell your left hand from your right hand, apparently. I have no clue how you can wrap your head around the complexity of DMC4's controls, and not DmC's, unless you really just didn't bother paying attention to what you did in DmC, or you're just being insanely biased and doubling down on your own stance.

it still doesn't rid it of awkward button-holding.

DmC's stance system is not awkward button holding! That's what the triggers are there for! That is you not liking it. That is not the game.

Well I felt I need to overcome complexity of DmC's controls to intuitively use it. So it completely depends to what person accustomed for.

It's completely different. R1 had one function. While DmC has basically 3 different functions for each trigger, which is exactly what annoys me in it's control scheme.

It's a little different than that, man. DmC's stance triggers don't have multiple functions, they change the function of a button, and in all actuality, the only button they explicitly change the function of is zoning, which goes from firing a gun to grappling. Dodges are still dodges and melee attacks are still melee attacks, just with different properties. So you're telling me that essentially you can't memorize how functions change, despite them making it extremely easy to learn as you play. You really must not have been paying any attention, and that's on you, not the game.

Actually...nope. you don't. If you won't demon pull it, you fall. If you don't angel dash it, you fall. simple as that.

I totally said that you can do whatever you want but only one thing was going to get you past the obstacles. QTEs segregate the player from control of their character and demand pressing one button or failing the QTE. That doesn't happen in DmC. The simplicity of grappling system doesn't make it a QTE. You need to get your butt checked, because there are words coming out of it.

It's 2 completely different things. Easy, unneeded platforming, that serves only to make levels look longer, has nothing to do with annoying trigger system

But those two are intrinsically linked, because you need to use the stance triggers to progress. You claimed the platforming is easy because there's not a lot to surpassing them, and what is needed to surpass them is the trigger system you're trying to say is hard. If the trigger system was hard to wrap your head around, that would make the platforming segments more difficult.

It doesn't removes need to get accustomed with it. Let's say so: I get accustomed to DMC4 pretty fast, as opposing to DmC. If DmC was harder, it probably took me much more time to get through all difficulties than it actually had.

No, of course it doesn't remove the need to get accustom to the controls, that's how any new game works, but You're trying to claim your problems with DmC's controls are the fault of the controls, when you've admitted fault that you mix up which functions are on which trigger - that's not an instance of the game being at fault, it taught you that simple mechanic very early on. Your inability to memorize those simple functions is not the game's fault.

Did you blame DMC4's controls for not being able to differentiate between Snatch's pulling property and Buster's grabbing property? Probably not, because you need to familiarize yourself with the functions and when which one would be used.

Let's see: Resistance uses it for quick access to grenades. Uncharted uses it for quick access to weapons. GoW uses it for quick access to magic. In all this cases D-Pad wasn't obstacle.

And I'll bring up Vanquish again, to add to that list. Then I'll tell you that those games don't demand you both use the Left Stick and the D-Pad at the same time. I haven't played Resistance, so I can't account for that, but Uncharted required you to use cover pretty much all the time, and changing weapons would prevent you from being able to aim and shoot, meaning you're an idiot who should be getting shot if you decide to switch weapons when outside of cover in the middle of a firefight. God of War uses the D-Pad to switch magic because the left stick is used for nothing more than movement, and in the middle of combat in God of War you're using the face buttons for attacks, or the right stick for evasion, and your left thumb is generally free to be where ever without risk of damage or dropping a combo.

In all your examples, the D-Pad is not an obstacle because the games don't demand the player use the D-Pad in moments when they're left thumbs are otherwise preoccupied with other actions.

Those games give ample opportunity to move easily between the D-Pad and the Left Stick, without hassle. DMC4 is different - the game demands you use both the D-Pad and the Left Stick during and for high-end combos.

 

[Innsmouth]

Even Vanquish, the fastest-paced shooter on the planet, requires you to make use of idle time and hiding to survive, and that's a game that uses the D-Pad for weapon switching. Call of Duty even still demands you not run out in the open for too long unless you know exactly where something is to kill it. All shooters are like that, don't be out in the open during a firefight unless you're shooting over moving to a better vantage point.

Actually using cover in Vanquish more often lead to your death than dodging and attacking head on. So yeah, it requires both dodgin and using d-pad at same time.

Except for when you're using R1 to lock-on and access a special move...

Except it wasn'T needed in each and every combo.

And neither does DmC. Stance switching might be more

more? I don't know what you mean with "more". DmC requires to hold triggers for 8/10 of the whole game.

So then...you can't tell your left hand from your right hand, apparently. I have no clue how you can wrap your head around the complexity of DMC4's controls, and not DmC's, unless you really just didn't bother paying attention to what you did in DmC, or you're just being insanely biased and doubling down on your own stance.

Your attempt to accuse me on some "doubling" is actually pretty baseless. I already said it an I repeat again. trigger system is counter-intuitive, which makes it far from perfect.

DmC's stance system is not awkward button holding! That's what the triggers are there for! That is you not liking it. That is not the game.

Umm. That's actually easy to get spin in another direction. It's you who likes the game. Which doesn't makes it less awkward to me.

It's a little different than that, man. DmC's stance triggers don't have multiple functions, they change the function of a button, and in all actuality, the only button they explicitly change the function of is zoning, which goes from firing a gun to grappling. Dodges are still dodges and melee attacks are still melee attacks, just with different properties. So you're telling me that essentially you can't memorize how functions change, despite them making it extremely easy to learn as you play. You really must not have been paying any attention, and that's on you, not the game.

Each dodge has different function, as is each grapple, making them completely opposing in effect, which requires additional rate to get accustomed to..

I totally said that you can do whatever you want but only one thing was going to get you past the obstacles. QTEs segregate the player from control of their character and demand pressing one button or failing the QTE. That doesn't happen in DmC. The simplicity of grappling system doesn't make it a QTE. You need to get your butt checked, because there are words coming out of it.

It's still one step behind qte. Wether you get cue or not, you forced to press certain button combination. It's restriction that build in by the game. IT's not as free as old tomb raider, instead it pretty much like any modern game, relies on guiding you by the hand.

But those two are intrinsically linked, because you need to use the stance triggers to progress. You claimed the platforming is easy because there's not a lot to surpassing them, and what is needed to surpass them is the trigger system you're trying to say is hard. If the trigger system was hard to wrap your head around, that would make the platforming segments more difficult..

em. no. How can be hard repetitive action done over and over. All platforming in DmC done essentially same way. IT's not like it requires out of you much diversity in action. Biggest obstacle for triggers is actually rather free-flow combo than platforming.

No, of course it doesn't remove the need to get accustom to the controls, that's how any new game works, but You're trying to claim your problems with DmC's controls are the fault of the controls, when you've admitted fault that you mix up which functions are on which trigger - that's not an instance of the game being at fault, it taught you that simple mechanic very early on. Your inability to memorize those simple functions is not the game's fault..

To put it bluntly, if system is intuitive any mix up of controls is prevented. if not. well. it's pretty much self-explanatory.

Did you blame DMC4's controls for not being able to differentiate between Snatch's pulling property and Buster's grabbing property? Probably not, because you need to familiarize yourself with the functions and when which one would be used..

It's only depends on time you need to get accustomed to it.

In all your examples, the D-Pad is not an obstacle because the games don't demand the player use the D-Pad in moments when they're left thumbs are otherwise preoccupied with other actions.

Those games give ample opportunity to move easily between the D-Pad and the Left Stick, without hassle. DMC4 is different - the game demands you use both the D-Pad and the Left Stick during and for high-end combos.

If you in the middle of the sword combo, you won't need pressing movement button all the time. So you have more than enough spare time to use d-pad.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

Actually using cover in Vanquish more often lead to your death than dodging and attacking head on. So yeah, it requires both dodgin and using d-pad at same time.

No, just no. There are very few instances when not using cover is your best option in that game, especially on higher difficulties. It's like you're just saying things now to disagree...

Except it wasn'T needed in each and every combo.

more? I don't know what you mean with "more". DmC requires to hold triggers for 8/10 of the whole game.

Your attempt to accuse me on some "doubling" is actually pretty baseless. I already said it an I repeat again. trigger system is counter-intuitive, which makes it far from perfect.

How in the Jesus' tits is the trigger system counter-intuitive!? Like seriously? This is what you've been trying to get at, but you've yet to come up with something that isn't based on your personal preference of not wanting to hold onto a trigger.

I've explained at great length why an element of DMC4's controls are slightly clunky because of what they demand of the player, and yet all your counters of "wull so are DmC's controls" have been nothing but your preference, and your inability to memorize the functions of a simple mechanic - which is, in all honesty, quite staggering considering you claim to be oh-so-good at DMC4's mechanics.

Umm. That's actually easy to get spin in another direction. It's you who likes the game. Which doesn't makes it less awkward to me.

Except my liking of the game is not what makes your opinion of DmC's controls being awkward untrue, it's the fact that it doesn't demand something less-than-ideal of the player, it's controls work perfectly within the demands of the game and how it wants the player to interact.

This whole time I haven't ever been talking about my feelings for DmC or its controls, you have. I've been speaking mechanically, while you've been speaking emotionally. I talk about actual design and mechanics, while you talk about how you had a problem with it or you felt that it was awkward.

Each dodge has different function, as is each grapple, making them completely opposing in effect, which requires additional rate to get accustomed to..

Both Angel and Demon dodges are still dodges, they still allow you to avoid damage by quickly moving in a direction. Their properties are different, but they are not different functions. The Ophion chain is the only thing that explicitly changes in function, and even then, it is still a zoning ability.

It's still one step behind qte. Wether you get cue or not, you forced to press certain button combination. It's restriction that build in by the game. IT's not as free as old tomb raider, instead it pretty much like any modern game, relies on guiding you by the hand.

"One step behind QTE" is not a QTE, chummer, and saying it's a restriction built into the game is grasping at straws because that's like saying Mario only is restricted to only one option for getting over a hole; jumping, so it must be a QTE too. They're obstacles that can be overcome by only one option or course of action.

em. no. How can be hard repetitive action done over and over. All platforming in DmC done essentially same way. IT's not like it requires out of you much diversity in action. Biggest obstacle for triggers is actually rather free-flow combo than platforming.

So first you say that any use of the Stance triggers is awkward, but concede that platforming is now excluded from that statement, when the platforming's use of the Stance Triggers is nearly identical to everywhere else it's every used.

To put it bluntly, if system is intuitive any mix up of controls is prevented. if not. well. it's pretty much self-explanatory.

And DmC's system is intuitive, as I explained before; you have zoning, melee weapon, and dodge fuctions, which can then be modified by either a "range of motion" modifier (Angel), and "heavy station" modifier (Demon), which modifies them exclusively based on the theme of that one modifier. Their functions are incredibly simple and you're given ample time to learn them exclusively before they are added as part of the whole of your arsenal.

There's a learning curve to understanding how those functions are modified, but after it's done teaching you, it's your responsibility as a player to take all that you learned into consideration to use it effectively in the rest of the game. Unless, you don't care about the game, in which case whatever is taught is not received with the appropriate consideration.

And hell, I would say the exact same thing to someone who complained that DMC4's Style mechanics were too difficult to understand.

It's only depends on time you need to get accustomed to it.

And DmC spends the third and fourth missions helping you slowly adjust to the abilities you get throughout the second mission, after the first mission which helps you adjust to the basic controls. If you haven't gotten accustomed to the controls by the start of Missions 5, you're just not trying to understand. If newcomers to the entire series can pick it up just fine, you have no excuse.

If you in the middle of the sword combo, you won't need pressing movement button all the time. So you have more than enough spare time to use d-pad.

Sword combos are only one part of the whole, and the fact remains that it's still a barrier on the controller because there's so much demand on that side of the controller. You have three different things vying for attention from your thumb; movement and dodging, directional inputs for special abilities, and Style switching. All that only gets more demanding the greater the things you want to do in the game.

I don't know how many times I have to go over this; the exorbitant amount of demand on the player's left thumb for increasingly higher-end options is what makes that portion of the controls clunky, and creates a skill barrier outside of the game.

 

[SSSSwagmasterMLGDmCplaya]

but you've yet to come up with something that isn't based on your personal preference of not wanting to hold onto a trigger.

I've explained at great length why an element of DMC4's controls are slightly clunky because of what they demand of the player, and yet all your counters of "wull so are DmC's controls" have been nothing but your preference, and your inability to memorize the functions of a simple mechanic - which is, in all honesty, quite staggering considering you claim to be oh-so-good at DMC4's mechanics.

Isn't preference what you were doing with:

Prop Shredder is damn near redundant in a game that allows access to everything

Nothing of actual importance was lost! Skills that existed because of Styles and Lock-on inputs are still there

and some skills removed because of redundancy

Basically diminishing the value of moves that were lost in DmC because they of their "redundancy" to you (preference), even though it didn't defeat the fact that Hard Lock and Style Switching gives you more inputs, aka redundancy didn't weaken anything with the argument.

I've been speaking mechanically, while you've been speaking emotionally

Really? As far as I'm concerned, you've been talking more about controls and why they're so hard for you to get used to. Including false claims about mechanics. For example when you claimed letting go of Hard Lock gave Dante a bit of lag during this transition which is perfectly cancelable by just walking.

I talk about actual design and mechanics, while you talk about how you had a problem with it or you felt that it was awkward.

Coming from someone who claimed double weapon switching in DMC4 was clunky because it was "not exactly ideal in fast-paced combat, because there's room for error in cycling too far or not enough", which is your fault for simply memorizing the patterns, especially when pressing speed isn't a factor unless you have broken fingers.

If newcomers to the entire series can pick it up just fine, you have no excuse

If people can siderave just fine and royal release during mid combat through reflexes in DMC4, you have no excuse.

and the fact remains that it's still a barrier on the controller because there's so much demand on that side of the controller. You have three different things vying for attention from your thumb; movement and dodging, directional inputs for special abilities, and Style switching. All that only gets more demanding the greater the things you want to do in the game.

I don't know how many times I have to go over this; the exorbitant amount of demand on the player's left thumb for increasingly higher-end options is what makes that portion of the controls clunky, and creates a skill barrier outside of the game.

Lets forget the examples I've given you where DmC required the player to execute more inputs than DMC4, focusing on the D-pad and analog.
Lets forget the fact you can trickster dash using i-frames, meaning there's no need to use the analog stick for dodging.
Lets forget that special abilities can be buffered in DMC4, but don't forget that DmC does the same.
Lets forget that players plan ahead in DMC4, but don't forget that DmC does the same.
Lets forget you have 3 guns to switch to in the D-pad in DmC.



Lets forget everything that happened and let me go on with this "debate" even though DMC4's controls give me more room for moves/inputs, making it more complex and justifiably so.
Following this logic, DMC2 had easier and more fluid controls than DmC, therefore DmC's controls are clunky, even though DmC brought more moves to the table thanks to the control's complexity.

That's basically the debate, where you ignore all points and diminish their value, to the point where I have to repeat myself ad nauseam.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

Isn't preference what you were doing with:

Basically diminishing the value of moves that were lost in DmC because they of their "redundancy" to you (preference), even though it didn't defeat the fact that Hard Lock and Style Switching gives you more inputs, aka redundancy didn't weaken anything with the argument.

None of that is some personal preference. Me mentioning redundancy had nothing to do with preference, and wasn't some point of contention about Hard Lock or Style Switching. It's a point of contention of "moar moves" when some moves doing nothing different than moves that existed previously.

Really? As far as I'm concerned, you've been talking more about controls and why they're so hard for you to get used to.

Not once did I talk about how the clunky control in DMC4 was hard for me. All my talk about clunky controls has been strictly from a design aspect. Any mention of my own experiences were when the system was possibly a detriment to me or my playstyle, but not once do I remember uttering the words "this is too hard for me to do, therefore it's clunky". Any time I talked about the awkward portion of DMC4's controls, it was wholly as point of (bad) design.

Coming from someone who claimed double weapon switching in DMC4 was clunky because it was "not exactly ideal in fast-paced combat, because there's room for error in cycling too far or not enough", which is your fault for simply memorizing the patterns, especially when pressing speed isn't a factor unless you have broken fingers.

You're attributing something as being my fault that I never claimed to be a problem for me, only that it presents a problem as it's a less-than-ideal design for the controller. It puts up a barrier on the controller that needs to be overcome.

If people can siderave just fine and royal release during mid combat through reflexes in DMC4, you have no excuse.

This would be another instance of you attributing my criticism of clunky controls being based upon my skill, or lackthereof. It's not, and never was.

If people can do siderave and royal release just fine, that's awesome, and I tip my hat to their skill at both mastering the mechanics in the game, and overcoming the barrier on the controller created by some clunky aspect of the controls.

even though DMC4's controls give me more room for moves/inputs, making it more complex and justifiably so.

See, now this is something you keep saying as it if means anything, when it doesn't. It doesn't matter one bit what complexity, skills, or whatever else DMC4's controls give us, it doesn't matter how the controls being the way they are justifies everything that we get out of it. Whatever we get out of the controls is great, but it doesn't negate the clunky element of the controls.

Justification does not make everything all peaches and cream. It gives reason, but it doesn't alleviate the point of contention.

It's like getting a free pizza with every d!ck punch. The justification is "Dude, it's okay, you get a whole pizza! FOR FREE!" Sure, but you still get punched in the f#cking d!ck.

Following this logic, DMC2 had easier and more fluid controls than DmC, therefore DmC's controls are clunky, even though DmC brought more moves to the table thanks to the control's complexity.

I don't know what the f#ck you're on about here, because that's not at all the string of logic I've been using this entire time. It sounds you like think I have something against "moar moves" when that has never been my point.

That's basically the debate, where you ignore all points and diminish their value, to the point where I have to repeat myself ad nauseam.

I can honestly say I think the reason why you keep repeating yourself is because you are either intentionally, or unintentionally, misrepresenting my point to hold up your own. At no point was my contention on clunky controls based on my own personal preferences or my skill as a player - which is apparently what you seem to think.

Are you just a strawman in disguise or something...?

 

[Innsmouth]

No, just no. There are very few instances when not using cover is your best option in that game, especially on higher difficulties. It's like you're just saying things now to disagree...

huh...I think you haven't played it on harder difficutlies. Vanquish very demanding and forces you often to attack head on, instead of sticking to the cover, since It's often that enemies blow up cover, or have air-to-earth missiles, etc.

How in the Jesus' tits is the trigger system counter-intuitive!? Like seriously? This is what you've been trying to get at, but you've yet to come up with something that isn't based on your personal preference of not wanting to hold onto a trigger.
.

Intuitive: something you can pick anytime without need to remember much about game. I think if i tried to pick

DmC again I probably need to relearn it from scratch all over again.
I've explained at great length why an element of DMC4's controls are slightly clunky because of what they demand of the player, and yet all your counters of "wull so are DmC's controls" have been nothing but your preference, and your inability to memorize the functions of a simple mechanic - which is, in all honesty, quite staggering considering you claim to be oh-so-good at DMC4's mechanics..

Well. First, you didn't said it was "slightly" clunky. You started great offensive how crappy it's control is. As for preferences, well same can be said about you and DMC4.

Except my liking of the game is not what makes your opinion of DmC's controls being awkward untrue, it's the fact that it doesn't demand something less-than-ideal of the player, it's controls work perfectly within the demands of the game and how it wants the player to interact..

So you claim DmC is ideal? ...well It's obvious bias, and I really had nothing to add to it.

This whole time I haven't ever been talking about my feelings for DmC or its controls, you have. I've been speaking mechanically, while you've been speaking emotionally. I talk about actual design and mechanics, while you talk about how you had a problem with it or you felt that it was awkward...

You did same with DMC4. Or you already decided to back-down on it?

Both Angel and Demon dodges are still dodges, they still allow you to avoid damage by quickly moving in a direction. Their properties are different, but they are not different functions. The Ophion chain is the only thing that explicitly changes in function, and even then, it is still a zoning ability.

They are different function. One used as power-up, other as teleporting. Same goes for chains.

"One step behind QTE" is not a QTE, chummer, and saying it's a restriction built into the game is grasping at straws because that's like saying Mario only is restricted to only one option for getting over a hole; jumping, so it must be a QTE too. They're obstacles that can be overcome by only one option or course of action..

Mario is platformer. DmC isn't . Unless you admit it's platformer in disguise.

first you say that any use of the Stance triggers is awkward, but concede that platforming is now excluded from that statement, when the platforming's use of the Stance Triggers is nearly identical to everywhere else it's every used.

Because platforming barely demands anything except Demon Pull/ Angel dash. If it combined all other trigger functions it would be annoying as hell

And DmC's system is intuitive, as I explained before; you have zoning, melee weapon, and dodge fuctions, which can then be modified by either a "range of motion" modifier (Angel), and "heavy station" modifier (Demon), which modifies them exclusively based on the theme of that one modifier. Their functions are incredibly simple and you're given ample time to learn them exclusively before they are added as part of the whole of your arsenal..

Your explanation doesn't make fact that it's not intuitive to me go away.

And hell, I would say the exact same thing to someone who complained that DMC4's Style mechanics were too difficult to understand...

Well you actually did it yourself. So I dunno why now you back-down on your own stance.

Sword combos are only one part of the whole, and the fact remains that it's still a barrier on the controller because there's so much demand on that side of the controller. You have three different things vying for attention from your thumb; movement and dodging, directional inputs for special abilities, and Style switching. All that only gets more demanding the greater the things you want to do in the game.

Well I just checked control layout on DmC, and now I can definitely say that your stance is hypocritical in core. You say left thumb demanding on DMC4 because of need to use stick and d-pad at the same time. Yet on the DmC you need to use L1+left stick+d-pad if you use combo with angelic weapons. Sorry but pressing 2 buttons on left side, can't be more demanding than use 3 buttons on the left side. So to summarize it, your bias toward DmC is pretty obvious, and you just made whole debate about how DMC4 controls are clunky, while DmC makes same mistake (according to you) with adding need to hold the trigger and all at the same time.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

huh...I think you haven't played it on harder difficutlies. Vanquish very demanding and forces you often to attack head on, instead of sticking to the cover, since It's often that enemies blow up cover, or have air-to-earth missiles, etc.

F#cking God, I'm not getting into this sh!t with you, it's pulling everything off-track. You keep picking apart random examples instead of addressing the point.

Intuitive: something you can pick anytime without need to remember much about game. I think if i tried to pick DmC again I probably need to relearn it from scratch all over again.

There's slightly more to that definition; intuitive controls is being able to easily pick up controls, but also not having to think when using them, after you've been taught them. Everything makes so much sense it becomes second nature.

Also, you didn't explain why DmC's system was counter-intuitive, all you did was give me half of a definition.

Well. First, you didn't said it was "slightly" clunky. You started great offensive how crappy it's control is. As for preferences, well same can be said about you and DMC4.

Oh noes~ Sorry for not specifying that I meant only a part of the controls, I figured since I was only ever talking about one specific portion of the controls people would have caught on.

And once again, none of this is my f#cking preference, I never talked about myself in regard to explaining clunky controls, it was all design. You're the one yapping over and over again about how DmC made you feel about the controls.

So you claim DmC is ideal? ...well It's obvious bias, and I really had nothing to add to it.

So it's bias simply because I happen to like DmC a little more than DMC4? Is it also bias because I like DMC3 more than DMC4? F#ck, I still like DMC4, and my reason for not liking it as much as the others has absolutely nothing to do with clunky controls - me talking about clunky controls is just a thing in the game I'm criticizing, just as much as the backtracking and the unreasonable loss of many moves I really enjoyed from DMC3.

You're throwing a claim of bias on me because you have no real rebuttal. I "claim DmC is ideal" (truthfully, only more ideal than DMC4) because of how the games set about giving us access to our entire arsenal. It's good that both did it, but the application of it was achieved better in DmC, because it actually bothered to streamline the function, instead of just slapping it on whatever buttons were left.

You did same with DMC4. Or you already decided to back-down on it?

I most certainly did not do the same with DMC4! When did I ever refer to my point of contention citing my own feelings or experiences, like you have this entire time.

They are different function. One used as power-up, other as teleporting. Same goes for chains.

You simplified it that much, and you still can't easily remember what each one does...? Dude, in an attempt to say that

Mario is platformer. DmC isn't . Unless you admit it's platformer in disguise.

They both have platforming elements. In Mario it's simply the focal element of the game, but in both games you jump over f#cking holes and jump on platforms to progress.

This doesn't at all change my point, though. Don't split hairs and strawman this into something else.

Because platforming barely demands anything except Demon Pull/ Angel dash. If it combined all other trigger functions it would be annoying as hell

Don't forget actual jumping. You also haven't done anything to challenge my point - you said Stance triggers were clunky, but you also say that using them in platforming is easy, and since it is used in the exact same manner in both platforming and combat, their use in combat would have to be easy too, because there is literally no change in circumstance - goals are still achieved through the use of the Stance triggers.

Your explanation doesn't make fact that it's not intuitive to me go away.

The big key words there, it's not intuitive to you. This is what I mean when I say that you have been arguing your own experiences, which are your own and not irrefutable fact. Your problem is a player-to-mechanics thing, but what I've been talking about this whole time is a player-to-controller problem.

Well you actually did it yourself. So I dunno why now you back-down on your own stance.

Hahaaaaaaaa~ No I didn't. I never complained that Style switching was hard for me, I only ever talked about it as an unideal element of the controls from a purely operational standpoint. Don't misrepresent my side of the argument, please.

Well I just checked control layout on DmC, and now I can definitely say that your stance is hypocritical in core. You say left thumb demanding on DMC4 because of need to use stick and d-pad at the same time. Yet on the DmC you need to use L1+left stick+d-pad if you use combo with angelic weapons. Sorry but pressing 2 buttons on left side, can't be more demanding than use 3 buttons on the left side. So to summarize it, your bias toward DmC is pretty obvious, and you just made whole debate about how DMC4 controls are clunky, while DmC makes same mistake (according to you) with adding need to hold the trigger and all at the same time.

Uhhhh...you can't count the Left Trigger as part of that, because it's not done with the left thumb, which has been the main point of everything I've talked about - the demands of the left thumb for interaction between the D-Pad and Left Stick. You even acknowledge the left thumb and its interaction between the left stick and d-pad above, then you decide to add the trigger in there as well, which adds absolutely nothing to the argument other than you trying to bring in something to refute as if refuting your new addition refutes everything else I've said - it doesn't. That's, like, the definition of strawmanning.

I take it the combo you're thinking of is Streak (Osiris) followed by Big Up (Aquila)? Wouldn't work any other way since Big Up takes us into the air, so that's what I imagine you mean, right?

The inputs would be Up+Up - L1+Triangle - D-pad Left - Up+Up - L1+Triangle. You've got plenty of time during Streak to switch over to Aquila and then go back to the Left Stick. That'd probably be the most demanding combo on your left thumb (not bothering to include the left index finger), similarly Snake Eyes to Flush on Demon mode. That's two combos, as opposed to how many more in DMC4? DmC does a lot to alleviate that demand with buffering and even being able to completely change the control scheme to one's liking. in DmC you can literally overcome whatever barrier exists on the controller by changing the controls.

But you know what? Yeah, DMC4 and DmC have a similar demand on your left thumb - which I've acknowledged before! However, DMC4's is still way more unideal because there is much more demand with all the left stick and d-pad functions, and what is required of high-end play, which was my point. DMC4 didn't bother streamlining any of what it could have, and in fact went backwards from the streamlining that Nero came with. The clunk exists for the sake of a nostalgic control scheme, and not to the benefit of actually bothering to make the controls better when they offered access to our entire arsenal.

 

[Innsmouth]

There's slightly more to that definition; intuitive controls is being able to easily pick up controls, but also not having to think when using them, after you've been taught them. Everything makes so much sense it becomes second nature..

I just said that it's not control that is easy to pick up, neither that you can learn fast enough. In another word it's not intuitive controls

And once again, none of this is my f#cking preference, I never talked about myself in regard to explaining clunky controls, it was all design. You're the one yapping over and over again about how DmC made you feel about the controls.

Actually it is. You talk from your personal experience, yet there are people who consider DMC4 controls more fluid than DmC. You can't brush their opinion aside, because in your experience DMC4 controls were clunky.

So it's bias simply because I happen to like DmC a little more than DMC4? Is it also bias because I like DMC3 more than DMC4? F#ck, I still like DMC4, and my reason for not liking it as much as the others has absolutely nothing to do with clunky controls - me talking about clunky controls is just a thing in the game I'm criticizing, just as much as the backtracking and the unreasonable loss of many moves I really enjoyed from DMC3.

Not it's more like that you refuse to admit, at least one thing DmC done wrong, yet claiming DMC4 is clunky, DMC3 is also clunky, etc.

You're throwing a claim of bias on me because you have no real rebuttal. I "claim DmC is ideal" (truthfully, only more ideal than DMC4) because of how the games set about giving us access to our entire arsenal. It's good that both did it, but the application of it was achieved better in DmC, because it actually bothered to streamline the function, instead of just slapping it on whatever buttons were left.

Em. It's just relocated circling weapons from back buttons to d-pad. Just yesterday you said that using d-pad choices in any game is bad decision, if it doesn't allow you to sit back and switch it freely.

I most certainly did not do the same with DMC4! When did I ever refer to my point of contention citing my own feelings or experiences, like you have this entire time..

You are doing it whole time. What you telling isn't established facts. It's you personal experience.

You simplified it that much, and you still can't easily remember what each one does...? Dude, in an attempt to say that

I could if I haven't to use so much combination with same buttons in restricted time-frames.

They both have platforming elements. In Mario it's simply the focal element of the game, but in both games you jump over f#cking holes and jump on platforms to progress.

Jumping is usually summarise with precision and timing. Unlike whole "demon pull" story, that is only there to look cool and doesn't add anything to the challenges. Since you basically can't miss and you must use same buttons over and over.

Don't forget actual jumping. You also haven't done anything to challenge my point - you said Stance triggers were clunky, but you also say that using them in platforming is easy, and since it is used in the exact same manner in both platforming and combat, their use in combat would have to be easy too, because there is literally no change in circumstance - goals are still achieved through the use of the Stance triggers..

There is difference between using same buttons over and over, or adjust in combat.. It's main difference between platforming and combat. Combat requires some amount of fast reaction and adjusting to situation. Platforiming doesn't requires it, since it doesn't provide any pressure on your reaction at all.

The big key words there, it's not intuitive to you. This is what I mean when I say that you have been arguing your own experiences, which are your own and not irrefutable fact. Your problem is a player-to-mechanics thing, but what I've been talking about this whole time is a player-to-controller problem.

I'm talking about controller layout not about game mechanics. So It's still player (me) to controller discussion.

Uhhhh...you can't count the Left Trigger as part of that, because it's not done with the left thumb, which has been the main point of everything I've talked about - the demands of the left thumb for interaction between the D-Pad and Left Stick. You even acknowledge the left thumb and its interaction between the left stick and d-pad above, then you decide to add the trigger in there as well, which adds absolutely nothing to the argument other than you trying to bring in something to refute as if refuting your new addition refutes everything else I've said - it doesn't. That's, like, the definition of strawmanning.

Well actually it does. Thumb is part of the hand, and demand to hold back button with your finger only adds additional strain on thumb, since unlike DMC4 your thumb is even more confined in it's motion. It all could have been resolved if triggers worked with tapping not with holding buttons.

I take it the combo you're thinking of is Streak (Osiris) followed by Big Up (Aquila)? Wouldn't work any other way since Big Up takes us into the air, so that's what I imagine you mean, right?

in DmC you can literally overcome whatever barrier exists on the controller by changing the controls..

Actually no. because you than either find you in oppose position with devil trigger, or will have problem of having both triggers on the same side of controller.

But you know what? Yeah, DMC4 and DmC have a similar demand on your left thumb - which I've acknowledged before!

Well you didn't done it before in our discussion, since from all discussion over past days, I got expression that you blame clunkiness of DMC4, at the same time as claiming that DmC puts zero strains on your hands, which was exactly my problem with whole DMC4 debate.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

I just said that it's not control that is easy to pick up, neither that you can learn fast enough. In another word it's not intuitive controls

Except all of your talk about it not being easy to pick up is coming for your own personal experience, and is contrary to a lot of other people who say it is easy to pick up.

Actually it is. You talk from your personal experience, yet there are people who consider DMC4 controls more fluid than DmC. You can't brush their opinion aside, because in your experience DMC4 controls were clunky.

I NEVER MENTIONED MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCES. It is objective fact that putting so much demand on one aspect of the controller can make it clunky, it's been talked about ad nauseam in the game industry itself about what constitutes making a good control scheme, it's why so many games follow a specific philosophy, to avoid clunky controls.

My experiences played no part in the conclusion, and if were talking about my experiences, I myself have overcome the clunky aspect of the control scheme! You're consistently trying to attribute something to me that isn't on me, and deny something exists simply because people can overcome it, despite it serving as an actual problem for a lot of people, and even players who have overcome it explaining how it takes practice to overcome! It's not practice learning a mechanic, it's practice learning to overcome a barrier on the controller.

Not it's more like that you refuse to admit, at least one thing DmC done wrong, yet claiming DMC4 is clunky, DMC3 is also clunky, etc.

I never said that DMC3 was clunky...the only problem I had with DMC3 was the janky-ass priority locking system, but that's a completely different matter.

And what did DmC "do wrong", exactly? What strawman bullsh!t are you going to pull out now?

Em. It's just relocated circling weapons from back buttons to d-pad. Just yesterday you said that using d-pad choices in any game is bad decision, if it doesn't allow you to sit back and switch it freely.

You're gonna have to point out where I said that, because I'm pretty sure you're misconstruing what I said.

DmC also didn't simply relocate weapons, it used a system of switching and toggling. Y'know, that hold Stance trigger system you whine about so much.

You are doing it whole time. What you telling isn't established facts. It's you personal experience.

No dude, you need to specifically point out to me where the f#ck I said such things, because I most certainly did not, and never talked about my personal experiences. Get that through your head! Not once did I use my personal experiences with DMC4 to back up my point.

I could if I haven't to use so much combination with same buttons in restricted time-frames.

Push a button, it does a thing, hold in trigger while pushing that button, it does another thing. That's not hard...

You're making the Stance trigger system out to sound way more complicated than it is; you're grasping at straws to prove a point that actually makes you sound less skilled than you've previously claimed to be.

Jumping is usually summarise with precision and timing. Unlike whole "demon pull" story, that is only there to look cool and doesn't add anything to the challenges. Since you basically can't miss and you must use same buttons over and over.

There is difference between using same buttons over and over, or adjust in combat.. It's main difference between platforming and combat. Combat requires some amount of fast reaction and adjusting to situation. Platforiming doesn't requires it, since it doesn't provide any pressure on your reaction at all.

You can most certainly miss if you're timing or orientation is off. However, besides the point, your comment doesn't mean anything. The platforming requires just as much involvement with the Stance triggers in combat at certain points with gliding, pulling out platforms, moving grapple points, and then using grappling points. If you're timing is off, you fall. In combat, if you're timing is off, you drop combos or get hurt.

I'm talking about controller layout not about game mechanics. So It's still player (me) to controller discussion.

No, because you're complaining about how the game's Stance trigger system, which requires the holding of a button in conjunction with another, is tough for you. For you. You don't like that it asks you to hold down triggers, which is perfectly simple to do, as it's the only thing your fingers are doing. DMC4 asks you to tap buttons, which isn't bad in and of itself, but because of where that entire function is located, you have to tap buttons while also still worrying about tilting the left stick with the same thumb.

Hell, for simplicity's sake, take Nero's Rainbow attack. You have to be tilting the left stick to run, and then press the taunt button. If Taunt is on its default key, you have to move your thumb from the left stick - which makes you run - to press the Select button. That's just not ideal. Luckily, if I remember correctly you have like a split-second where the input for Taunt still works as Nero stops running, but that's still just not a good place to put something like that.

Well actually it does. Thumb is part of the hand, and demand to hold back button with your finger only adds additional strain on thumb, since unlike DMC4 your thumb is even more confined in it's motion. It all could have been resolved if triggers worked with tapping not with holding buttons.

No dude, I'm not talking about the index finger, it's not part of my point at all. You're trying to add it into here to make your own point and it's not working. My point of contention is the stress put on specifically the left thumb, the left index finger never experiences any undue stress because it's already sitting right on the shoulder of the controller anyway, where the buttons it interacts with are located.

Your point is useless.

Actually no. because you than either find you in oppose position with devil trigger, or will have problem of having both triggers on the same side of controller.

Devil Trigger...? What the hell are you talking about?

Well you didn't done it before in our discussion, since from all discussion over past days, I got expression that you blame clunkiness of DMC4, at the same time as claiming that DmC puts zero strains on your hands, which was exactly my problem with whole DMC4 debate.

I acknowledged it at some point in this thread, I didn't think I'd have to keep referring back to it, thinking people would actually bother to pay attention.

 

[Demi-fiend]

Alright guys. I know I'm the last person who should say this, but you three need to stop. I saw Drakan's message and I don't want to see you guys get told off either. I say this out of pure concern, and nothing else.

I'm apologize to all three of you, and to Dark Drakan as well, and hope that we can all have a conversation without insulting each others' tastes in games from here on out.

I'm really sorry.

Are you just a strawman in disguise or something...?

Actually I seriously, unironically, 100% truthfully think that he just might be main event.

I say this without sarcasm, and hope that it will not be considered an insult or spam.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

Yeah, y'know, I guess I'm done here.

So far pretty much everything that's been put to me has been based on a misrepresentation of my points, incidental junk dragging out superfluous side arguments, and what feels like literal strawman bullsh!t.

Time for me to make like a fetus and head out.

 

[Demi-fiend]

Yeah, y'know, I guess I'm done here.

Ew.

Anyway, I'm glad you decided to just drop out of this before things really got out of hand. If your Modder Sense is tingling (if you see an argument coming) just don't respond and avoid the thread if you feel it necessary to do so.

Yes, I know I've said it before myself, but for some reason, I don't think I'll be having trouble remembering that this time around.