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Let's Talk About That Combat! DMC & DmC.

EA9Sol

For Sanguinius!
Like the tittle says, this is all about Devil May Cry's and DmC: Devil May Cry's combat. So, what makes it complex? What makes it good? Most importantly what make it fun? From what I've notice most people like comparing Devil May Cry 4 and DmC's combat to each other and leave DMC 1, 2, 3 out of it. Is it because Devil May 4 combat is superior to predecessors? As it show great improvements of it's past installments? Or just copy pasted from DMC 3 with some changes and nothing new?

So, your thoughts? ┬┴┬┴┤(・_├┬┴┬┴
 

EA9Sol

For Sanguinius!
I can already tell this is gonna get really bad, buuuuut what makes DMC and DmC fun isn't whose got the more complex gameplay, but based on the gamer itself and which he or she feels more comfortable with and enjoys more.
Yup. But, I just want to know what others thought. Hopefully nothing bad truly come from this. >.>
 

ef9dante_oSsshea

Well-known Member
Premium
Xen-Omni 2020
Arguements are inevitible man but in my opinion it would go DMC4 is top dog followed by DmC then DMC3 then DMC1 and then DMC2 combat wise. I feel like DmC is less technical or punishing on inputs and timing like DMC4 is which doesn't make it an inferior game i just prefer DMC4 because i like the challenge of jc
 

Pale Rider

Wickedly good
Like the tittle says, this is all about Devil May Cry's and DmC: Devil May Cry's combat. So, what makes it complex? What makes it good? Most importantly what make it fun? From what I've notice most people like comparing Devil May Cry 4 and DmC's combat to each other and leave DMC 1, 2, 3 out of it. Is it because Devil May 4 combat is superior to predecessors? As it show great improvements of it's past installments? Or just copy pasted from DMC 3 with some changes and nothing new?

So, your thoughts? ┬┴┬┴┤(・_├┬┴┬┴

You wouldn't be wrong if you called DMC 4's combat a copy paste, but having all the styles at once for Dante along with JC added a new flavour and made it extremely challenging to master. Nero's combat was more easy and boring I'd say.

DMC 3 combat with one style at a time would've been boring too if it was not for different weapons.


DmC was easy combat wise. I also noticed that I could parry better in it as compared to DMC 4. Perhaps, it could be because I played DMC 4 with turbo on.
 

Devils Never Cry

Devil Hunter
Premium
Disregarding the technicalities, I'd say DMC4 and DmC are pretty close in terms of variety (slightly more weapons in DmC, and many aspects of the styles are now incorporated into weapon movesets). However, I personally think DmC's combat is more fun.

DMC3's combat feels outdated to me, with only being able to use four weapons (two devil arms and two firearms) and one style at any given time with Dante (Vergil is an improvement though). DMC1's combat feels even more outdated, and DMC2's is just a giant mess.
 

WolfOD64

That Guy Who Hates Fox McCloud
Devil May Cry 1 and 2 aren’t really the subject of much debate when locked into a comparison with more recent entries in the series, for the sole reason that, well….they’re barely action games. Yes, the original DMC was and is a monument to the action genre, but the emphasis of that game was mainly progression. I often refer to the first game as the first, real, 3D Symphony of the Night. There was a lot of emphasis on exploring the castle, placing certain objects in specific places, and countering bosses with newfound abilities, like the Devil Trigger. The actual combat in the game is simplistic and primitive in nature. There’s not a lot in the way of combos, and the Style Ranking only depends on how many times you can hit the enemy, rather than grading your efficiency when varying moves. In essence, DMC1 and DMC2 can be fairly ranked as arcady button-mashers (2 moreso than 1, mind you. You still at least had to dodge in the first game). So when people compare the DmC to the original Devil May Cry series, I can assure you that they aren’t comparing it to DMC1 and DMC2. In fact, most people---including the ignorant fanbots that emerged in the wave of mindless rage following DmC’s initial announcement---find themselves heralding DMC3 as the series’ high point and sole standard, and the game every DMC game should strive to be.

And that’s where the problem begins…

Devil May Cry 3 will always go down in history to me as the game that could’ve been the perfect DMC game (excusing whatever questionable story elements were in the game). From a combat perspective, it had the right balance of weapons, styles, enemy AI, input requirement and challenge to be the stellar prodigy of the hack-n’-slash genre. Unfortunately, the game made itself virtually outdated upon release, by keeping the same problems that plagued DMC1 and DMC2: The stiff movement and clunky controls, and the insufferable camera. I can forgive DMC1 for having those issues, because it kept its combat simple and as a sole means to kill enemies and progress with the level…but DMC3 tries to push itself as a legitimate hack-n’-slash game, with more combat options, style rankings, and harder enemies. The most integral aspect of any action game is to SEE what you’re fighting, and have RESPONSIVE CONTROLS that act FAST ENOUGH against the hordes of enemy AI. DMC3 demolished both of those aspects, and that’s what makes it a chore to play. I hear a lot of people praise DMC3 for its difficulty, but they fail to see the reason it’s difficult isn’t because of any actual in-game challenge. It’s because of the game’s refusal to adapt to evolution and retooling. DMC3 isn’t difficult….you know what is? Ninja Gaiden, and there’s a reason why: The controls and camera DO NOT get in the way, and yet the game is STILL a relentless challenge of wits and combat variety. The enemy AI is what makes game like Ninja Gaiden hard…and it’s not like DMC3’s enemies are easy by any stretch. The problem is, they should be the only obstacle of the game. And by the end of the day, DMC3’s ultimate obstacle isn’t the enemy AI, or mastering the styles or conquering the bosses…it’s the player’s vain attempt to adjust themselves to the irritating controls and disorienting camera. If you honestly don’t believe that it’s THAT big of a problem, just flash back to your first encounter with the game, the first time you picked up and played it. Did you find yourself perfectly adjusted to the controls and camera on your first playthrough? Better yet, introduce someone else to the game. Hand a random stranger the controller the next time you play the game, a gamer who’s never experienced Devil May Cry…and see how he/she “picks up and plays” the game. That is, of course, before they shatter your TV by throwing your controller upon meeting the game’s first boss.

Thankfully, these problems were fixed upon the Devil May Cry series’ transition over to the MT Framework engine with DMC4, and the Unreal Engine with DmC. In both games, the controls, movement, camera options and centering were a massive improvement. They played much more fluently, and allowed for a more versatile set of movement and combat. Oh, and you can see what you’re fighting…that definitely helps.

DmC’s combat functioned with a prominent emphasis on diving in and out of enemy ranks…almost like you were in Trickster all the time. The Angel Pull and the Demon Whip proved to be essential

People often criticize the game for not having a lock-on…but the fact is, not a single one of Ninja Theory’s past action games---playing similarly to DmC right down to being made on the Unreal Engine---utilized a lock-on either. What makes DmC superior to those games in terms of combat is the addition of the Demon Pull/Angel Whip. What made it a stand-out Devil May Cry game was the way it handled its weapons. An issue I’ve had in nearly all the past DMC games is that some of the weapons are borderline useless. What made them ineffective in the heat of combat was that most of the movesets dedicated to each weapon seemed to be there just for the sake of looking cool, rather than being useful. This a problem prominent in both Ninja Gaiden and God of War, so DMC is far from the only offender in this category. But almost every single melee weapon in DmC is packed with moves that prove highly effective in combat. I can’t remember a single move I bought with my XP that didn’t end up saving me in higher difficulties.

However, I think DmC’s best implementation of combat is through the Demon and Angel weapons…and yes, I’m talking about the “color-coded enemies” everyone bitches about. For one, these enemies actually revived something present in the old DMC games. Certain enemies reacted differently depending on which weapons you used. You could hack the Seven Hells to ribbons with Rebellion, but it would prove fruitless against the Arachnids a few levels later. You had to experiment with Cerberus, Agni and Rudra, Beowulf, and other weapons to see what did damage and what didn’t….and you had to do it in the heat of battle, against DMC3’s relentless enemy AI. But DmC brings that back by having Demonic and Angelic enemies, each susceptible to either angelic or demonic weapons. It’s a lot like Ikaruga with its Light and Dark enemies...it’s simple on a conceptual level, yes, but it works extremely well in-game. And just because it’s simple, people assumed that this was “dumbing down the combat.” It’s funny I brought up Ikaruga, because despite its simplistic Light/Dark system…the game is hard as ****. What makes DmC hard, even painful for some people, is that it relies on the player to use just the two angel/demon weapons they have equipped, and only use those to defeat the enemy. In essence, you have to rack up combos and Style Points with just one weapon type. That’s not a problem…that just encourages you to increase your knowledge of the moveset set of each weapon. Trying to get an SSS on Son of Sparda difficulty in a room full of angel enemies? Well, you have to get acquainted with all of Osiris and Aquila’s moves, and you better know how to chain them effectively. In other words, the game encourages you to play around with each weapon, and develop skill with both the Angel/Demon weapons. That’s why there’s only four alternate weapons to Rebellion in the game: the combat requires to strategically improve with your own choice of weapons, and determine whether or not the Angel/Demonic essence of each weapon will be damaging and effective against the enemies. It’s the first DMC game that requires you to become an expert with every melee weapon in the game, and that is what makes the combat so much fun to play. It depends less on being flashy or performing cool-looking moves, and relies more on being effective and delivering sufficient damage...and you still look and feel badass while doing it. Whether or not it holds up against past DMC games is ultimately up to you…but on its own, the game holds up really well in the combat department.

In terms of the original series, DMC4 really holds the place as the game with the best combat. It essentially took everything DMC3 introduced with its Style System and Weapon Switching, and smoothened the creases with a better camera and control. You had access to all your weapons all the time, and could switch styles on the fly. The amount of strategy that added was incalculable...you could switch between Royal Guard's defense and Sword Master's offense, all while employing Trickster and Gunslinger to enemies who required evasion and long-range attacks. Despite not having an equal variety in weapons, it had a great system of Refundable Combo Purchases, and was a little less stingy about its Style Ranking system when compared to 3. Nero’s combat was a good contradiction to Dante’s, since he wielded the Red Queen with one arm, thus making his attacks a bit slower. That required more strategy and damage-dealing as a result, complimented with the Devil Bringer being a superb way to finish combos. I will admit that he doesn't feel as powerful or devastating as Dante, but he has a much longer reach and versatile means of reaching enemies. So playing as Nero provided a fresh inclusion of challenge and reliance on effective knowledge of moves, making him a more challenging choice than Dante’s.

Overall, I’d say DMC4’s combat is my personal favorite (although nostalgia and having a lot more time to acquaint myself to the combat system might serve as unfair sweeteners to my natural bias towards the game), with DmC coming in on a slick, clean second. DMC1 and 2 weren't technically combat-heavy enough to be discussed in comparison, and DMC3 I utterly hated with a dismayed sense of shattered anguish at how much potential it held…but all the afore-mentioned problems it was plagued with.
 

Director Bison

King of Games
Premium Elite
Premium
i actually enjoy DMC 3 the most because it limits you

the first DMC i played was 4
so when i started playing as Dante the first time i wasn't all that good
having 3 weapons 3 guns and 5 styles felt overwhelming
i only ever used rebellion and sword master

but when i got DMC 3 only having 1 style at a time and having to level them up really made me understand how to use them properly
same goes for the weapons

don't get me wrong DMC 4's Dante is great now that i have the experience
but for a new player it doesn't teach you how to use him at all

where in DMC 3 you have the hole game to experiment and learn
 

WolfOD64

That Guy Who Hates Fox McCloud
don't get me wrong DMC 4's Dante is great now that i have the experience
but for a new player it doesn't teach you how to use him at all
4 did, to a subtle degree. Instead of dumping the styles on your lap like 3 did, DMC4 had a lot of secret missions that required you to utilize specific styles.

There were missions that required you to use Trickster, or a mission that required using Royal Guard 5 times in a row. It was a little more preparatory than DMC3's "Kill everything in under 3 minutes" mission.
 

berto

I Saw the Devil
Moderator
Alright, from the top:

Devil May Cry-
By today's standards the gameplay isn't exactly complex, there are three combos for the swords and really there are only two types of melee, swords and gauntlets. Plenty o' guns but they don't add too much depth there. The weapons do bring variety with the swords been combo based and the gauntlets been chargeable and you can switch them mid combat. What makes it fun is a that punch Dante brings with every strike. You do stinger and the earth rubles. The had the Resident Evil ambiance that gave it that creepy atmosphere. Also, the most unrealistic thing Dante could do when you start the game is jump way too high for a normal man, aside from that there was nothing he did that was unrealistic, he could've been any dude and he faced against the dark hordes and that made you feel like a bad @$$.

Devil May Cry 2-
Let's face it, this game was sleep inducing. There were cool things you could do but by god could it put you to sleep. The combo system was replaced from pause to directional input on the analog stick but there are some cool things on occasion. They are overpowered by the bad but there is still good here and there.

Devil May Cry 3-
I remember getting my a$$ handed to me by this game, repeatedly, mercilessly, and incisively. The complexity of this game is ridiculous and the difficulty is almost too much. It's complex because of all the weapons and styles you can mix, match, and experiment with. Why is it fun? Because of all you can do here. Remember the first time you ran against a wall to slam down an enemy? That kinda fun. So many bosses, so much epicness to the battle, specially with Vergil's, and, lets face it, as poorly as it's dialogue is the story is the best one in the series.

Devil May Cry 4-
Not my favorite in the franchise but still the one with the most possibilities for creativity. Dante's access to so much on the fly makes it the most complex harder to master and add Nero and there is just so much you can do. It's fun because when you experiment, when you start to master the controller, you can pull off some neat stuff. The problems are still there and you all know what they are so no need to go in to it.

DmC Devil May Cry-
Why is it complex? It's the combination of weapons and styles that allow you to pull not just a lot of what you could do before but more since you can access all of it on the fly. Yes, it has more than a few issues, not the point of this. With the addition of the grapples and many steps forward from the previous title the game can offer lots of creative leeway.


Honestly, though, if you want complexity Bayonetta is the way to go. The story and characters might be embarrassing but the gameplay is par none.
 

The Final Offer

Well-known Member
Man...

All people have to do is realize one thing.

In DMC series, you didn't get anything truly.

You always got the same weapons. Go ahead, place the weapons side by side with each installment in the series. There were barely any new weapons to learn.

For the love of everything, we were playing the same game with a few graphical enhancements. It was like the difference between each DMC game is the same amount of content as DLC.

So, don't. I'm tired of getting the same weapons with slightly different names.
 

ChaserTech

Well-known Member
Seeing how this thread was created after the fiasco that happened earlier this week, I think I'll just take my discussion here.

I'll write up what I know about both DmC and DMC4 when it comes to the combat system. Gonna make it short enough so it won't overwhelm a lot of people. But for now I'll see you guys until I wake up (currently 4:37am here -_-; )
 

Demi-fiend

Metempsychosis
Supporter 2014
EA9, you're a great gal, but there are times when you just have to say, "no".

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And thank you for bringing the conversation here. (@ tech)
 

WolfOD64

That Guy Who Hates Fox McCloud
So, don't. I'm tired of getting the same weapons with slightly different names.
Dem gauntlets...
Dante_and_Ifrit.png

Vergil_3_Beowulf.png

Devil+May+Cry+4+Gilgamesh+ETC+Large.jpg

531978.jpg
 

ChaserTech

Well-known Member
Coming from someone who is actively into action games, I'm just gonna dive right in and explain why technical DMC players think DmC isn't as complex as what people think it is compared to DMC4.

DmC has a lot of variety when it comes to weaponry but it's main problem is that you can't do too much with the weapons that are given to you in a technical way. And seeing how you can't position yourself as well relative to the enemy you're comboing, it limits you quite a bit. In fact, there are times where if you JC an enemy in DmC, it will reset the enemy in a certain position. Let me show you what I mean.


In this video, I'm JCing against a Frost while using Rebellion, Lucifer, and Gilgamesh. I'm positioning myself so I'm going above and below the enemy using Double weapon switching with rebellion/lucifer and guard cancelling aerial rave. The enemy doesn't reset so I have to worry about my positioning. And because of that I can do things like this:


Here, I'm JCing the last hit of aerial rave and immediately using Jealousy to stop the Frost in midair. The enemy keeps it's momentum from the aerial rave AFTER I jump cancelled. But in DmC, you have moves like Helm Breaker, Fireworks, Aerial Rave (last hit), and Showdown, which have different properties when it the hit connects but since JCing resets enemies velocities, it counts as a "pointless JC". Even Dante's Calibur in DmC was patched so that the enemy resets it's ENTIRE POSITION above you when you use it, enabling you to JC at a certain window compared to before.

This alone causes a lot of problems when you want to do certain setups that requires you to JC right after hitting the enemy away. And seeing how Dante's main options for setups are Kablooey and Revenant, I don't see much potential for him. (And yes, I have seen recent DmC vids by michellgun)

There's also A LOT of other things I can go over on why DmC lack as much depth compared to DMC4 but I'm going to keep it short with this post. However if you want me to keep explaining, I can.
 

mrrandomlulz

Monsuuuta moonssuta mo mo mo mo monsuuta
DMC3 still takes the cake for me, it is fun, challenging, and the enemies actually have a fighting chance
 

Innsmouth

Sleeping DMC Fan
Supporter 2014
DMC3 still takes the cake for me, it is fun, challenging, and the enemies actually have a fighting chance
Really :O I felt DMC3 enemies are actually one of the worse in franchise. They have like 1/2 moves and don't really protect themselves.
 

mrrandomlulz

Monsuuuta moonssuta mo mo mo mo monsuuta
Really :O I felt DMC3 enemies are actually one of the worse in franchise. They have like 1/2 moves and don't really protect themselves.
Yeah, but due to the part where I am not invincible and can't access everything at once, they have more of a fighting chance than in DMC4 or DmC
 

Innsmouth

Sleeping DMC Fan
Supporter 2014
Yeah, but due to the part where I am not invincible and can't access everything at once, they have more of a fighting chance than in DMC4 or DmC
I dunno....They are somewhere on DmC level imo, because of their limited abilities and their passive actions.
 

WolfOD64

That Guy Who Hates Fox McCloud
Coming from someone who is actively into action games, I'm just gonna dive right in and explain why technical DMC players think DmC isn't as complex as what people think it is compared to DMC4.
As someone who enjoys both, I'll be the first to say that DmC's combat isn't as in-depth as DMC4's. I play it in the same context as a pseudo-sequel to Heavenly Sword or Enslaved: Odyssey to the West. In terms of actual Devil May Cry games that embody the original style, I prefer DMC4.
 
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