Let's Talk About That Combat! DMC & DmC.

[SSSSwagmasterMLGDmCplaya]

Justified does not make it wholly acceptable, nor does it make it any less clunky. DMC4 tried to take what made DMC3 great and opened it all up, without bothering to refine it in a way that makes it easier to

Acceptable or not, gave you more moves in exchange for more complex controls, making it justified. Its a very simple complex to understand. I don't see any system able to make the controls easier with the amount of moves DMC4 brought to the table. But hey, if you want less moves overall, fine with me.

As I said before, while it's one more input, equaling a fraction of a second more, the system also allows you to buffer the one directional input, greatly alleviating whatever problems that would otherwise be presented

In the example I gave you, both setups from DmC and DMC4 can be buffered, as I've said before.

Holy balls dude, you completely ignored what I said about that f#cking video!

You're video didn't disprove anything, because it just showed that to be better at that sh!t you need to do something that no developer ever asks of the player - interacting with the controller differently than how they're made to be used. To have to use an index finger to accommodate for how the game otherwise preoccupies your thumb is goddamn absurd, and proves the point of clunky control! Asking the player to make use of controls by awkwardly pretzeling their hands on the controller is bad, it's clunky, it could be better!

The alternative you present with that video reinforces the point of how clunky the control scheme is! That one way to make it easier to Style switch is to use a finger that isn't even supposed to be used on the d-pad!

And hell, if you're on about alternatives, at least DmC lets you completely reconfigure the controls, so your one point of contention about cycling through three firearms on the D-Pad can be put anywhere else on the controller.

And seriously, I do not at all understand what's so hard about the fact that a skill barrier on the controller is a bad thing. There's learning a new control scheme, and then there's "Naw, it's easy, you just gotta use your index finger like an extra thumb." That's f#cking ridiculous.

No wonder we can get anywhere in this debate. Your inability to read is outstanding. Let me repeat myself one more time, this time in big bold letters so you're eyes can see;
YOU claimed that

Switching Styles required the used of the same thumb necessary for both movement (and avoidance) and input for special attacks, and cycling through weapons is not exactly ideal in fast-paced combat, because there's room for error in cycling too far or not enough.

when it's simply not true because switching styles DOESN'T NECESSARILY REQUIRE YOU TO USE YOUR THUMB. The video itself disproves your claim, showing that you can also use your index finger.

]Jesus H Tapdancing Christ - it's like you're not even reading. I wasn't trying to roll for the i-framcs, I was trying to roll for the movement around a target. But the janky-ass system prioritized a different enemy, so instead of rolling around the Vangaurd like I wanted to, I just jumped right in front of it, and got smacked.

>trying to roll for movement
Yep I'm done here.
Not only is this hilariously bad when playing DMC3 (because rolls have a long recovery window at the end of the animation), and that Hard Lock depends on the player to move the analog towards the enemy you're targeting (like in DMC4 and in DmC) but from someone who blames Hard Lock for slowing movement, you really like to roll around, which is slower than running around the target.

I was referring to rebellions transformations

you can select any of your weapons with a single button press

Should I bold out "any" so you can see? It seems you've changed your mind once I've pointed out that not all weapons can be reached through a single button press.

And it isn't a problem of difficulty. It's just that it's pretty unanimous that DMC4's Dante's control scheme is awkward and kinda over bearing.
All the other control schemes for the previous DMCs and DmC, have been intuitive and easy to understand

Its difficult to get used to the controls, why? Because DMC4 gives you more moves than in DmC, hence why DMC4's controls a more complicated. If it were to be the games reversed, I'm certain most of you will be praising it.

 

[Exejpgwmv]

Should I bold out "any" so you can see? It seems you've changed your mind once I've pointed out that not all weapons can be reached through a single button press.

I'm sorry my post was misleading

Its difficult to get used to the controls, why? Because DMC4 gives you more moves than in DmC, hence why DMC4's controls a more complicated. If it were to be the games reversed, I'm certain most of you will be praising it.

1)No that's not the reason. It's not a matter of how many moves I'm given, it's a matter of how I can access/execute them.
The simplest way I can put it would be if: Someone gives you a swiss army knife with a hundred tools, but the only way to access them was to use your pinky-toe.

2)No I wouldn't not be praising DmC if it had same control scheme.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

Acceptable or not, gave you more moves in exchange for more complex controls, making it justified. Its a very simple complex to understand. I don't see any system able to make the controls easier with the amount of moves DMC4 brought to the table.

Hooray~ It gives us a lot of moves, but that doesn't change the fact that everything was put on a clunky control scheme! It doesn't f#cking matter what it brings to the table! It could grow a mouth and give you the greatest fellatio you've ever had in your life, and it still wouldn't make it any less clunky.

And if I really hated myself, I'd argue that some of the new moves DMC4 even gives us are silly and useless; Honeycomb, while cool-looking, is sorta dumb - it locks you in place and simply took the rapid-fire passive ability on regular shooting Gunslinger used to have, Dance Macabre is a goddamn auto-combo, and DMC4 still got rid of worthwhile stuff from DMC3 like Free Ride, Wild Stomp, and passive abilities.

when it's simply not true because switching styles DOESN'T NECESSARILY REQUIRE YOU TO USE YOUR THUMB. The video itself disproves your claim, showing that you can also use your index finger.

Dude, how is it so impossible for you to understand that "being able to use your index finger" is a retarded justification? Does it work? Totally! But needing to use your index finger for compensation is the problem. It's evidence of a clunky control scheme because you have to hold and use the f#cking controller in a way that no one should ever need to.

>trying to roll for movement
Yep I'm done here. Not only is this hilariously bad when playing DMC3 (because rolls have a long recovery window at the end of the animation), but from someone who blames Hard Lock for slowing movement, you really like to roll around, which is slower than running around the target.

So you finally accept what I was saying, and yet still completely disregard it. Who gives a sh!t what I used the roll for, the entire point I was f#cking making is that the janky-ass system screwed me over. It doesn't matter what I wanted to do, it matters that the system prevented me from doing what I wanted. You've literally gone about ignoring my point so you could be all "hurr hur ur bad @ the gayum!"

This was also much, much earlier in my time with DMC3, it's just an experience that stuck with me and made me acutely aware that the priority system in DMC3 was janky. So...oh noes~ younger, less experienced TWOxACROSS from like half a decade ago was still improving~

 

[Innsmouth]

According to the logic that the easier to pull out the move the better combat system, all HnS including NG are clunky. The only non clunky system is than Dynasty Warriors, because it requires simple combo changes with 2 buttons. It also doesn't put any "strain" on your hands.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

According to the logic that the easier to pull out the move the better combat system

For f#ck's sake. No, that is not at all what I'm saying. It's that the easier to pull out the move the better the controls are. Simplicity and intuitiveness are desirable for any game. Complexity should be through game mechanics, not controller configuration.

 

[Innsmouth]

For f#ck's sake. No, that is not at all what I'm saying. It's that the easier to pull out the move the better the controls are. Simplicity and intuitiveness are desirable for any game. Complexity should be through game mechanics, not controller configuration.

Ok. Guess DW has best controls in the world. I get it

 

[TWOxACROSS]

So...I tell you "no", and you just hear like...what? White noise? Some cows mooing or something?

If you're gonna ignore what I type, then just go play in traffic.

 

[Innsmouth]

> It's that the easier to pull out the move the better the controls are.
>DW moves are easier to pull than DmC = controls are better

 

[TWOxACROSS]

Y'know what? Yeah, sure. For what DW wants of the player, and what it allows the player to do, the musou games and their ilk have really good controls. Granted, they use a dial-a-combo system, and that system is built for simplicity.

The DMC franchise's combat systems across five games is more complex though (maybe not exactly DMC1's, although there were two different pause combos), because despite using one or two buttons for melee combat (shooting is simple in and of itself), there's more depth, simply because of the free-form combo system.

 

[Innsmouth]

But than if system is complex across all DMCs (your words) it kinda contradicts that you just said DMC3 has worse controls than DmC, because actually DmC puts MUCH more strain on your thumbs memory with it's double trigger controls, than basic combo controls of DMC3

 

[Chancey289]

If DmC was hard to control then it must be a pain to dress yourself in the mornings.

 

[Innsmouth]

DmC uses system where you need to switch between 3 buttons in combination with one trigger, which is more complex than DMC3 direct inputs. And since according to TWO's the more strain controls put on you the worse control scheme, there is no way beating around the bush about it.

 

[Demi-fiend]

If DmC was hard to control then it must be a pain to dress yourself in the mornings.

DURR DURR I CAN'T PUT THESE CLOTHES ON.

 

[Chancey289]

It was pretty easy to memorize the two weapons assigned to each directional button. The guns 3. And from memory I select which weapons I want to use to preform a particular combo and simply holding one button down allows me to use that. Let it go and I'm back to the sword.

It's a very comfortable control scheme that has you not having to make your hands turn in to some weird game of twister among the controller because they decided to add an unnecessarily convoluted control scheme with quite a bit of useless sh!t (looking at you DMC 4).

It threw out styles in favor of a hybrid that feels like a natural evolution to be honest. In fact, I heard a lot of things incorporated in DmC was going to be as early as 3.

Maybe you just suck at it or have some personal issues. I find it very hard to believe many people would struggle with DmC. And thing is, you can always change the control layout. It allows you to change everything. My friend who was new to Devil May Cry changed the shooting to the button used to shoot in Fable just because he was used to that and felt more comfortable.

 

[Innsmouth]

Assigning 3 moves on one button (hold trigger + dodge/weapon/pull) is definitely not intuitive, neither it's clever. The most annoying was to use L2+ L1/R1, which was pretty counter-intuitive and required some time to adjust to, as opposing to DMC3 where you can pick game and already learn everything on the fly without need to get through memorizing unneeded patterns.
If we talk about simplicity DMC3 definitely more simple as DmC to memorize and adjust to.

 

[Chancey289]

Whatever. I know you hate DmC with just a relentless passion so you will scrap the bottom of the barrel and reach for anything to criticize no matter how stupid it is.

I doubt you even played it. All I ever hear from the people who hate it is just parroting what others say. And if you have played it and struggle with DmC's control scheme then well, I'm sorry you suck? Seriously, if that's complicated then I'm f#cking Jesus Christ.

 

[Innsmouth]

I don't even care what you doubt. Don't believe it? Why should I care? I know I played it. And I know why i sold it. All whining about DMC4 is often nothing more than nitpicking and kneejerk reaction because it sold better than DmC. As for parroting? You know people repeat same thing because they experienced same problem with it, not because of some dumb conspiracy theories some love to spread around.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

I'm wondering if people are under the impression that I somehow hate DMC4 or something. I like it just fine, but DMC3 and DmC are my favorites. Not sure why I feel the need to defend myself on that point, but...whatever

But than if system is complex across all DMCs (your words) it kinda contradicts that you just said DMC3 has worse controls than DmC, because actually DmC puts MUCH more strain on your thumbs memory with it's double trigger controls, than basic combo controls of DMC3

I haven't been talking about DMC3, other than the experience I had with the low point of the target priority system. I've been talking about DMC4, and the problem isn't in the game's complexity, it's in the way that complexity is achieved - through some clunky controls. While it does give us access to our entire arsenal (hooray options!), it didn't make it very easy on the player to access. The demands of Style switching mid-combo with the same thumb used for directional inputs for attacks and avoidance, and a "one way" weapon cycling system are not ideal for such a fast-paced game that wants the player to make use of that entire arsenal.

Suddenly, you have to learn and practice to overcome a barrier on the controller greater than the "learn this new game's controls", teaching yourself how to get past the clunkiness in order to get back to the actual game itself.

Regarding DmC - I'm going to assume by "thumbs" you mean fingers, unless you moved the Stance triggers elsewhere, which...hey, whatever works, people put Jump on a trigger for easier JCing. Anyway, regarding DmC, it demands you learn the controls (as any game would), but the controls themselves are simple enough when you understand the mechanics the game teaches you; the Stance triggers modify attacks when held in by changing the weapon you use, and they're exceedingly easy to access, and that's the point - DmC gives us access to our entire arsenal, in a way that's much better than DMC4 did. Sure, yeah, there's isn't as many moves as DMC4, but there's definitely something to be said for quality over quantity.

DmC uses system where you need to switch between 3 buttons in combination with one trigger, which is more complex than DMC3 direct inputs. And since according to TWO's the more strain controls put on you the worse control scheme, there is no way beating around the bush about it.

First off, I'm not quite sure what you're talking about that requires three buttons in combination with one trigger. The only things that change a weapon are one D-pad button per weapon type, and a trigger. Secondly, while more complex than DMC3 (which I wasn't comparing it to), it's similar in complexity to DMC4 in that they offer access to everything, but DmC does it in a much less clunky way - you hold in a shoulder button, which no DMC player should really be new to.

Assigning 3 moves on one button (hold trigger + dodge/weapon/pull) is definitely not intuitive, neither it's clever.

That's rather intuitive really. Whatever button you're pressing in conjunction with a Stance trigger still operates on that similar function - a dodge is still a dodge, a weapon attack is still a weapon attack, and guns/pulling are zoning moves, and they are still zoning moves when used with a Stance. Even understanding the properties each Stance offers gives insight to what you can expect; Angel mode provides expansive and quick actions, so an Angel dodge moves you farther, an Angel weapon is fast and hits wider, and the zoning skill moves you elsewhere. Whereas Demon move is about heavy, stationary actions, so a Demon dodge gives you a reason to stay close to the enemy (obtain and utilize the power boost), a Demon weapon hits hard and pushes, and a Demon pull drags a target to you. And the game easily teaches you the properties of each Stance bit by bit, very early on as you play, so long as you're paying attention when it does.

The most annoying was to use L2+ L1/R1, which was pretty counter-intuitive and required some time to adjust to

Hey yeah, it takes some time to adjust to, because the game is teaching you to use it, but pushing two shoulder buttons opposite shoulder buttons, one finger each, isn't really clunky. Clunky would have been if the only way to use an Angel Dodge is with both of the Left shoulder buttons (L1+L2), because that's a slightly awkward.

as opposing to DMC3 where you can pick game and already learn everything on the fly without need to get through memorizing unneeded patterns.
If we talk about simplicity DMC3 definitely more simple as DmC to memorize and adjust to.

If we were talking about DMC3, sure! That game was really good in its system because it segregated what you could to into emphasizing the player crafting and building up their own personal, smaller arsenal, rather than having access to everything. But! As I've mentioned before, I was never talking about DMC3, I was talking about DMC4, and in comparison between DMC4 and DmC, the latter just gives easier access to all of its stuff - it's simple to learn from a mechanic and gameplay standpoint, and doesn't demand some funky hand positions to bring about the best of those mechanics.

All whining about DMC4 is often nothing more than nitpicking and kneejerk reaction because it sold better than DmC.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm not nitpicking, nor is it a kneejerk reaction to some random sales figure. I'm looking critically at an element in a game I liked but always had an issue with, which prevented me from liking it more. It's an element that prevented a lot of my interest in really getting good at DMC4, because I just didn't really dig the idea of having to pass a barrier on the controller before I could get to the skill barrier in the game itself.

 

[Innsmouth]

I'm wondering if people are under the impression that I somehow hate DMC4 or something. I like it just fine, but DMC3 and DmC are my favorites. Not sure why I feel the need to defend myself on that point, but...whatever

Well maybe it's because that you usually has nothing positive to say about any original DMC. At least i didn't heard at least one good word from you about any of them.

I haven't been talking about DMC3, other than the experience I had with the low point of the target priority system. I've been talking about DMC4, and the problem isn't in the game's complexity, it's in the way that complexity is achieved - through some clunky controls. While it does give us access to our entire arsenal (hooray options!), it didn't make it very easy on the player to access. The demands of Style switching mid-combo with the same thumb used for directional inputs for attacks and avoidance, and a "one way" weapon cycling system are not ideal for such a fast-paced game that wants the player to make use of that entire arsenal.

While I understand complains about weapon switching I don't understand how style changes can be difficult, while they basically achieved as fast as devil/angel trigger in DmC.

Suddenly, you have to learn and practice to overcome a barrier on the controller greater than the "learn this new game's controls", teaching yourself how to get past the clunkiness in order to get back to the actual game itself.

Well first you start with Nero's whose moves are more basic than DmC or DMC3. Than you get Dante, but by this time you should more or less adjust to controls in game.

Regarding DmC - I'm going to assume by "thumbs" you mean fingers, unless you moved the Stance triggers elsewhere, which...hey, whatever works, people put Jump on a trigger for easier JCing. Anyway, regarding DmC, it demands you learn the controls (as any game would), but the controls themselves are simple enough when you understand the mechanics the game teaches you; the Stance triggers modify attacks when held in by changing the weapon you use, and they're exceedingly easy to access, and that's the point - DmC gives us access to our entire arsenal, in a way that's much better than DMC4 did. Sure, yeah, there's isn't as many moves as DMC4, but there's definitely something to be said for quality over quantity..

I don't consider stance easy to acces. Alone the fact that you need constantly hold buttons is pretty annoying.

First off, I'm not quite sure what you're talking about that requires three buttons in combination with one trigger. The only things that change a weapon are one D-pad button per weapon type, and a trigger. Secondly, while more complex than DMC3 (which I wasn't comparing it to), it's similar in complexity to DMC4 in that they offer access to everything, but DmC does it in a much less clunky way - you hold in a shoulder button, which no DMC player should really be new to.

I'm talking about need to combine triggers with 2 different inputs, while switching between both triggers. It doesn't felt accesible, and it did feel clunky to me, like if the tried to slap one mechanic on top of another on top yet another.

That's rather intuitive really. Whatever button you're pressing in conjunction with a Stance trigger still operates on that similar function - a dodge is still a dodge, a weapon attack is still a weapon attack, and guns/pulling are zoning moves, and they are still zoning moves when used with a Stance. Even understanding the properties each Stance offers gives insight to what you can expect; Angel mode provides expansive and quick actions, so an Angel dodge moves you farther, an Angel weapon is fast and hits wider, and the zoning skill moves you elsewhere. Whereas Demon move is about heavy, stationary actions, so a Demon dodge gives you a reason to stay close to the enemy (obtain and utilize the power boost), a Demon weapon hits hard and pushes, and a Demon pull drags a target to you. And the game easily teaches you the properties of each Stance bit by bit, very early on as you play, so long as you're paying attention when it does.
.

Well it felt to much like mash-up to me. I rather prefer tactical approach of DMC3 and DMC4 where you need to choose what you use instead of mashign everything in one big pile. It's like Bioshock 1 vs. Bioshock infintite. Yes you can do everything at same time in Infinite, but than it doesn't make Infinite deeper than Bio1 where you had to choose tactics.

Hey yeah, it takes some time to adjust to, because the game is teaching you to use it, but pushing two shoulder buttons opposite shoulder buttons, one finger each, isn't really clunky. Clunky would have been if the only way to use an Angel Dodge is with both of the Left shoulder buttons (L1+L2), because that's a slightly awkward.

That's pretty much what annoyed you in DMC4. I think it relies to much on shoulder buttons instead of direct inputs.

If we were talking about DMC3, sure! That game was really good in its system because it segregated what you could to into emphasizing the player crafting and building up their own personal, smaller arsenal, rather than having access to everything. But! As I've mentioned before, I was never talking about DMC3, I was talking about DMC4, and in comparison between DMC4 and DmC, the latter just gives easier access to all of its stuff - it's simple to learn from a mechanic and gameplay standpoint, and doesn't demand some funky hand positions to bring about the best of those mechanics.

Didn't you said DMC3 had clunky and awkward controls?

I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm not nitpicking, nor is it a kneejerk reaction to some random sales figure. I'm looking critically at an element in a game I liked but always had an issue with, which prevented me from liking it more. It's an element that prevented a lot of my interest in really getting good at DMC4, because I just didn't really dig the idea of having to pass a barrier on the controller before I could get to the skill barrier in the game itself.

Well I never felt that barrier even existed on DMC4. And apparently I'm not the only one. I think DMC4 strikes good balance between accessibility and being tough to master.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

Well maybe it's because that you usually has nothing positive to say about any original DMC. At least i didn't heard at least one good word from you about any of them.

Well for one, if I'm criticizing something I don't feel the need to sing its praises at the same time. For another, I didn't think I would have to explain myself.

While I understand complains about weapon switching I don't understand how style changes can be difficult, while they basically achieved as fast as devil/angel trigger in DmC.

I've been over this - because high-end Style switching combos demand a lot from your left thumb, and it presents a barrier on the controller to figure out how you want to pass that barrier, either by learning to use your hand on the controller in a manner that should never be necessary, or by spending a lot of time with the controller itself. It might feel like progress being made towards in-game mechanics, but its improving how you interact with the controller, not the game itself.

Well first you start with Nero's whose moves are more basic than DmC or DMC3. Than you get Dante, but by this time you should more or less adjust to controls in game.

Well, the thing about that is Nero has a lot less thrown at the player, and you gradually learn more as you unlock mechanics like Tablehopper and greater Exceed control through upgrades. Dante transfers all the Proud Souls, and you buy a bunch of upgrades before you even start playing as him, meaning you don't get time to learn through normal gameplay (because there's so much of it), his control scheme is different in a few key ways than Nero (aerial combos and his Helm Splitter are utilized with different controls), and much of the access given to Dante is through that Style system with it's less-than-ideal placement on the controller.

Dante throws a lot at the player in a small amount of time, all at once, and when it comes to weapon switching it just ends up a little worse than how it began, creating another barrier on the controller.

I don't consider stance easy to acces. Alone the fact that you need constantly hold buttons is pretty annoying.

I dunno what to tell you man, that sounds really silly, considering how often we hold R1 in DMCs. It's not all that demanding, you're never holding more than one at a time, and the game gives you a lot of time to get used to it.

I'm talking about need to combine triggers with 2 different inputs, while switching between both triggers. It doesn't felt accesible, and it did feel clunky to me, like if the tried to slap one mechanic on top of another on top yet another.

So you mean holding R1 and pressing Triangle or Circle, or is it something else? Can't respond unless I know what you mean - us getting our sh!t confused betwixt our discussions isn't something I'm keen to have happen again.

Well it felt to much like mash-up to me. I rather prefer tactical approach of DMC3 and DMC4 where you need to choose what you use instead of mashign everything in one big pile. It's like Bioshock 1 vs. Bioshock infintite. Yes you can do everything at same time in Infinite, but than it doesn't make Infinite deeper than Bio1 where you had to choose tactics.

I'd agree with you on DMC3, that's what made it so good - the fact that the Styles all had a lot going for them was great. DMC4 on the other hand feels a lot like a mash-up, and it felt like they didn't do anything to make it work better, they just took the DMC3 controls and added in Styles on the D-Pad, without thinking about how clunky it could end up.

That's pretty much what annoyed you in DMC4. I think it relies to much on shoulder buttons instead of direct inputs.

I don't think I quite get this one. It seems like your two sentences don't match up.

Didn't you said DMC3 had clunky and awkward controls?

Narp, I've been talking about DMC4 this whole time. My only mention of DMC3 was an experience early on playing the game where the janky-ass targeting priority system d!cked me when I got surrounded once.

Well I never felt that barrier even existed on DMC4. And apparently I'm not the only one. I think DMC4 strikes good balance between accessibility and being tough to master.

I think not feeling the barrier is subjective to each person - depending on how easily they can pass that specific barrier on the controller. That's a skill thing, certain people are just quick learners in some regard. However, it's not about one's ability to overcome that barrier on the controller, which undoubtedly makes it not seem like much at all, but it's that the barrier exists in the first place.