Let's Talk About That Combat! DMC & DmC.

[Innsmouth]

I can't even imagine how somebody who played all DMC parts before it can have trouble with DMC4 controls. Unless it's his first HnS he picked.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

DMC4 explicitly added in something that made the controls clunky. I'm not getting into this sh!t again. Go read the stuff I was mentioning...not that you'll listen anyway.

 

[Innsmouth]

I still can't remotely imagine how switching between weapons and styles could have been hard, considering it's basic memory abilities. IT's like you get accustomed to your controller and memorize where triangle, square, circle or X is.

 

[Erian1Mortal]

I still can't remotely imagine how switching between weapons and styles could have been hard, considering it's basic memory abilities. IT's like you get accustomed to your controller and memorize where triangle, square, circle or X is.

To tell the truth I also had a lot of trouble adjusting to Dante in DMC4 since he had 3 weapons for melee and firearms as well as the styles. It's just to much. 3 Weapons worked for Vergil in DMC3 since you could cycle forward and backwards and always get the weapon you wanted with one button press, with Dante, not so much.
And I already had around 200 hours into DMC3 at that point.
Ah well, to each their own I guess. Just my two cents on that matter.

 

[Innsmouth]

To tell the truth I also had a lot of trouble adjusting to Dante in DMC4 since he had 3 weapons for melee and firearms as well as the styles. It's just to much. 3 Weapons worked for Vergil in DMC3 since you could cycle forward and backwards and always get the weapon you wanted with one button press, with Dante, not so much.
And I already had around 200 hours into DMC3 at that point.
Ah well, to each their own I guess. Just my two cents on that matter.

Tbh, I never had much trouble with it. Yes, at the first 30 mins I had to memorize which weapon belongs to which button, but that's pretty much it. Also I personally loved style switching.

 

[ef9dante_oSsshea]

How is it any different to memorizing the right inputs for DmC or for a fighting game like tekken or doa?

once you memorize tje button layout and practice DMC4 is by no means clunky

 

[Exejpgwmv]

How is it any different to memorizing the right inputs for DmC or for a fighting game like tekken or doa?

once you memorize tje button layout and practice DMC4 is by no means clunky

I wouldn't say clunky.
I think it's just awkward.

And it's different from DmC because in DmC you can select any of your weapons with a single button press.

While in DMC4 you have to cycle through weapons.

 

[Innsmouth]

I wouldn't say clunky.
I think it's just awkward.

And it's different from DmC because in DmC you can select any of your weapons with a single button press.

While in DMC4 you have to cycle through weapons.

Style switching happens per simple button press. And imo assigning 3-4 actions toward one button like it does DmC is much more counter-intuitive, than have each action assigned to one button.

 

[ef9dante_oSsshea]

That is the whole point of prqctice dude , don't you think people like me and chaser and others had to practice to master jc and all the insane mechanics of DMC4 ?

it may be awkward at first i grant you but thats why you customize your layout

 

[Exejpgwmv]

That is the whole point of prqctice dude , don't you think people like me and chaser and others had to practice to master jc and all the insane mechanics of DMC4 ?

it may be awkward at first i grant you but thats why you customize your layout

I know, it just that I've never felt the need to change the button layout on any of the other DMC's.
I guess I just dislike cycling through weapons and having to customize the layout so that I can play competently :/

 

[ef9dante_oSsshea]

ah it isn't for everyone i guess, and you need to want to master it too.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

Aw c'mon guys...it's like no one paid attention to what I actually said :/ It has clunky controls because it demands a lot out of your left thumb. It'd be like in a fast-paced FPS having you aim with Right Stick and shoot with Circle - it's not ideal. Yes, practice helps a person overcome that hurdle, but that's the thing, you shouldn't have to practice to overcome something on the controller. The fact that to get over the awkward (synonym for clunky in gaming these days) control you have to practice is the problem.

It's fine that people can practice and overcome that clunkiness, that's how some of the best stuff is done, but it's just that the set-up shouldn't be clunky in the first place.

 

[ChaserTech]

Aw c'mon guys...it's like no one paid attention to what I actually said :/ It has clunky controls because it demands a lot out of your left thumb. It'd be like in a fast-paced FPS having you aim with Right Stick and shoot with Circle - it's not ideal. Yes, practice helps a person overcome that hurdle, but that's the thing, you shouldn't have to practice to overcome something on the controller. The fact that to get over the awkward (synonym for clunky in gaming these days) control you have to practice is the problem.

It's fine that people can practice and overcome that clunkiness, that's how some of the best stuff is done, but it's just that the set-up shouldn't be clunky in the first place.

Honestly speaking, when you put things that way, I could claim that DmC is clunky in that regard.

I use my left thumb a lot when it comes to style switching in DMC4. And while it may not be as often, I tend to use the Dpad a lot as well in DmC since I switch through my weapons constantly. I don't think that just because you're doing something you're not used to doing counts as "clunky controls". Otherwise any game that has you doing something that you're not used to doing would count as clunky. (Which I don't think is true at all.) I would assume that clunky controls would count as something that isn't responsive to your character or inputs results to your character using slow moves that take a lot of startup/recovery frames. Kind of like how Monster Hunter handles character weapon usages (heavier weapons cause more startup/ending lag while lighter weapons are much faster)

Figuratively speaking though, clunky-ness is slightly subjective in this case since it sounds as people prefer one control scheme over another. This goes for everyone.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

No, see, it's because DMC4 demands use of your left thumb for both Style switching and skills that require directional input - there's simply a lot going on for one thumb to be responsible for. DmC is a lot less demanding on the left thumb because there's one directional input and it can be buffered well beforehand, alleviating much of what potential problem there would otherwise be.

It's not a "what you're used to", it's how the controller demands you move about the controller to achieve things in the game - for instance, like I said before with the fast-paced FPS that requires you to aim your gun with the Right Stick, and then shoot with Circle. That's a lot to ask of the right thumb and demand that the player be a crack shot using such controls. Could it be done? Sure, with a lot of practice, but that's the point, you shouldn't have to practice to achieve what is essentially such a rudimentary function.

 

[The Final Offer]

The people that created DmC's combat are the same ones that worked on DMC4's. The idea for DmC was to create an less awkward control system that allows you to switch weapons on the fly. Obviously, they accomplished as much.

When it will return is probably DMC5, that's what will set DmC's combat from DMC's combat.

 

[SSSSwagmasterMLGDmCplaya]

You're ignoring the fact that skill overcoming controls is not a good f#cking thing for a game! Learning controls of a new game is one thing, but having to legitimately overcome the control scheme in order to do things that the game wants you to do is another. That's not a skill barrier in the game's mechanics, that's a skill barrier on the controller. Yes, skill will get you through that particular controller barrier at some point, but it's poor design for a game to ask that of its player. People walk away from games with sh!t controls!

Seriously dude, you're ignoring that the controller should never be part of a game's difficulty. You keep repeating yourself because you're explicitly ignoring how being good at a game's mechanics is different than being good at a game's clunky controls.

Unfortunately, we're not to the point where we can control most games with our brains. Most of us have a physical controller which has limited space for inputs. The more moves a game has the more complex it is to execute certain moves in order to fit them into a controller.
For a game with a lot of moves such as DMC4, more complicated inputs are needed when all buttons are used up, so the difficulty to master the controller is justified. Even DmC uses the D-pad and also demands use of the analog stick, sometimes requiring more inputs than you would in DMC4, like I said in my last post:

How about this, if I launched a red enemy in the air with Eryx's Uppercut, and I wanted to use Arbiter's Flush to launch it again, I would have to press right on the D-pad to switch weapons+ Demon Mode+ forward on the analog+ forward on the analog+ and melee button.
Its similar to having to launching an enemy with PropShredder in DMC4+ up on the D-pad to Trickster+ Lock On+ Forward on the analog stick+ style button. However, you have to move the analog twice in DmC, an input more than in DMC4. This slight difficulty is needless since the controller is not fully occupied, unlike DMC4.

We can see that in this case, DmC takes one more input than in DMC4.

You're video didn't disprove anything, because it just showed that to be better at that sh!t you need to do something that no developer ever asks of the player - interacting with the controller differently than how they're made to be used. To have to use an index finger to accommodate for how the game otherwise preoccupies your thumb is goddamn absurd, and proves the point of clunky control! Asking the player to make use of controls by awkwardly pretzeling their hands on the controller is bad, it's clunky, it could be better!

You obviously didn't read carefully. Look at your post:

Switching Styles required the used of the same thumb necessary for both movement (and avoidance) and input for special attacks, and cycling through weapons is not exactly ideal in fast-paced combat, because there's room for error in cycling too far or not enough

The video disproved your point, switching styles doesn't necessarily require you to use your thumb because you have alternatives.

And yes, I've said before that DmC uses the the D-Pad, but it's not anywhere near as demanding in a way as DMC4's for Style swapping. You're the one even talking about how skill will help a player overcome something like that, but DmC's is so much less intensive (there's one directional input type used)

And you've ignored my point again. The reason DmC isn't as demanding is simple; because there's less moves. That's why developers were able to give dodges it's own button(s), because there are less moves in the game, yet they needlessly complicated the controllers such as giving you 3 guns in the D-pad, which you said yourself was bad, especially when you also use your analog stick for advanced combos such as Angel Boosting the opposite way of the enemy, Stinger and other directional input moves ( most taking more inputs than directional input moves in DMC4), Angel Dodging in different directions and more.

and it can beeasilybuffered to make up for what difficulty it would otherwise present.

And again, ignoring what I said. You can do the same thing for DMC4 style switching, such as Hightime (switch to swordmaster during the animation), Propshredder (switch to trickster during the animation), Trick Up. This is one of the many examples of buffering to Style Switch. The majority of advanced gameplay of DMC4 consist mainly of buffering Style Switching and Double Weapon Switching.

What I experienced wasn't some faulty timing on my part, the only fault of mine was not noticing within a millisecond that I wasn't locked onto the right enemy when I was already hitting the inputs to roll, and instead of rolling around to the side of the enemy I wanted to, I just jumped, thanks to the game's poor priority system that didn't lock me onto what I wanted to.

This is like the 10th time, you didn't roll at the right moment. If you rolled at the right moment, i-frames would protect you, regardless of the direction you rolled into.

And it's different from DmC because in DmC you can select any of your weapons with a single button press.

While in DMC4 you have to cycle through weapons.

DmC's guns on the D-pad would like to say hello.




As far as I can tell, the main complaint is "its too hard for me". I had a hard time adjusting to the controls in DMC4 and in DmC, but many seem to think that it's generally about speed, when its more about memorization of the controls and what patterns you take to execute certain setups.

For example, the double weapon switching in DMC4 wasn't much about speed, rather than memorization. I was easily able to press the triggers about 5 times in a second when I first started, yet I had trouble because I didn't tap them at the right time, or I tapped them too fast that I'd end up in the same weapon again. This was especially the case when I was pressing the face buttons, even though its another finger that in no way bothers my middle finger, my hand simply got confused. Its about training your fingers to follow a pattern, not about speed.

Style Switching, however, also requires speed when executing advanced techniques like Siderave, but for normal stuff all you need is to train your fingers, not your speed.

 

[Exejpgwmv]

DmC's guns on the D-pad would like to say hello.

I was referring to rebellions transformations.

And it isn't a problem of difficulty. It's just that it's pretty unanimous that DMC4's Dante's control scheme is awkward and kinda over bearing.
All the other control schemes for the previous DMCs and DmC, have been intuitive and easy to understand.

And no one to date has explained to me how having to cycle through weapons and guns(With out being able cycle in both ways.), using the triggers, in a fast paced hack n, slash, is an intuitive and easy to get into control scheme.

 

[Demi-fiend]

Aw c'mon guys...it's like no one paid attention to what I actually said :/

DATZ CUZ U NEED 2 EXPLAIN URSELF BETTER

It has clunky controls because it demands a lot out of your left thumb. It'd be like in a fast-paced FPS having you aim with Right Stick and shoot with Circle - it's not ideal.

CUZ U RZ T3H NOOBZ

Yes, practice helps a person overcome that hurdle, but that's the thing, you shouldn't have to practice to overcome something on the controller. The fact that to get over the awkward (synonym for clunky in gaming these days) control you have to practice is the problem.

I HAZ MAD SKILLZ. NAWT MY FAULT U CAN'T PLAY 4 SH!T.

It's fine that people can practice and overcome that clunkiness, that's how some of the best stuff is done, but it's just that the set-up shouldn't be clunky in the first place.

WHAT'S CLUNKY 2 U IS AWESOMEZ 4 ME CUZ DMC4 IZ BALLZ 2 T3H WAAAAAALLLLLLLL.

MY GF IZ SO IMPRESSED WITH MY AWESOME, COMPLETELY USEFUL READY 4 T3H WORKFORCE TALENT.

U DUN NEED TEH COLLAGE PDH WHEN U HAZ DOCTORATE IN DMC4.

I'LL BET U NVR GET LAID EITHER CUZ UR JUS ANOTHER CASUAL SCRUB.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

Unfortunately, we're not to the point where we can control most games with our brains. Most of us have a physical controller which has limited space for inputs. The more moves a game has the more complex it is to execute certain moves in order to fit them into a controller.
For a game with a lot of moves such as DMC4, more complicated inputs are needed when all buttons are used up, so the difficulty to master the controller is justified. Even DmC uses the D-pad and also demands use of the analog stick, sometimes requiring more inputs than you would in DMC4, like I said in my last post:

Justified does not make it wholly acceptable, nor does it make it any less clunky. DMC4 tried to take what made DMC3 great and opened it all up, without bothering to refine it in a way that makes it easier to .

We can see that in this case, DmC takes one more input than in DMC4.

As I said before, while it's one more input, equaling a fraction of a second more, the system also allows you to buffer the one directional input, greatly alleviating whatever problems that would otherwise be presented.

You obviously didn't read carefully. Look at your post:

The video disproved your point, switching styles doesn't necessarily require you to use your thumb because you have alternatives.

Holy balls dude, you completely ignored what I said about that f#cking video!

You're video didn't disprove anything, because it just showed that to be better at that sh!t you need to do something that no developer ever asks of the player - interacting with the controller differently than how they're made to be used. To have to use an index finger to accommodate for how the game otherwise preoccupies your thumb is goddamn absurd, and proves the point of clunky control! Asking the player to make use of controls by awkwardly pretzeling their hands on the controller is bad, it's clunky, it could be better!

The alternative you present with that video reinforces the point of how clunky the control scheme is! That one way to make it easier to Style switch is to use a finger that isn't even supposed to be used on the d-pad!

And hell, if you're on about alternatives, at least DmC lets you completely reconfigure the controls, so your one point of contention about cycling through three firearms on the D-Pad can be put anywhere else on the controller.

And seriously, I do not at all understand what's so hard about the fact that a skill barrier on the controller is a bad thing. There's learning a new control scheme, and then there's "Naw, it's easy, you just gotta use your index finger like an extra thumb." That's f#cking ridiculous.

This is like the 10th time, you didn't roll at the right moment. If you rolled at the right moment, i-frames would protect you, regardless of the direction you rolled into.

Jesus H Tapdancing Christ - it's like you're not even reading. I wasn't trying to roll for the i-framcs, I was trying to roll for the movement around a target. But the janky-ass system prioritized a different enemy, so instead of rolling around the Vangaurd like I wanted to, I just jumped right in front of it, and got smacked.

 

[Demi-fiend]

Asking the player to make use of controls by awkwardly "pretzeling" their hands on the controller is bad, it's clunky, it could be better!

No, it's not.

My logic is infallible.

#troll