Why should Vergil NOT come back? Read FIRST post before responding

[Vergil'sBitch]

Re: Why should Vergil NOT come back?

Yes, your insulted because you are not being given an intelligent answer... you must think we're all stupid...

perhaps you didn't read my post... i was being sarcastic...

Castlevania: Portrait of Ruin... Eric LeCarde (from Bloodlines) was brought back into the series as a ghost... do the same with Vergil?
If that's not good enought for you... nothing will be.

 

[Darth Angelo]

Re: Why should Vergil NOT come back?

The possibility of him coming back is irrelevant to the topic of this thread. But I'll humor you.

Being dead is a poor reason for not being able to come back. Characters come back from far more definite and well-known deaths all the time in fiction. Example: Superman, Sigma from MMX, Michael Myers, etc.

In response to your second point: I agree that resurrecting someone needlessly cheapens the meaning of death, but this is totally irrelevant as well. First of all, Nelo is dead Vergil. Vergil died right after DMC3, according to Kobayashi, so death already means nothing in the DMC series apparently. Secondly, coming back from a sufficiently ambiguous "death" once does not equate with dying and returning in every game. And thirdly, no one felt any emotion when Nero died because no one even knew who he was.

OK, I entertained your opinion. If you have a necessary, rational argument for why Vergil should never ever return, at all, then post it.

VB: Who ever said they were going to kill Vergil every game and bring him back? Vergil has only "died" once apparently, and it was ambiguous enough for it to be disputed. For all these people complaining about "cheapenig Death": VERGIL IS DEAD IN DMC1, he is basically a robot zombie, according to Kobayashi, so take it up with him, not me.

Someone come up wit something new at least.

If you have accepted his death why are you so desperate for a reason not to bring him back? It's simple if a character is dead it's not a good idea to find a way of bringing him back regardless of how important he appears to be.
If Vergils body is no more I have no interest in what he has to offer, as a spirit is probably a lot harder to kill or destroy and so his story would go on for way too long. It wouldn't end until everyone is sick to death of Vergil and just wanted him to go away in some kind of brotherly sacrifice or showdown. Ironicly leaving his story where it is will keep him at the peak of his popularity as from here people will just pick holes.
"I didn't like Dante in 4 I thought he was cooler in 1 and 3"
"I didn't like Vergil in this one he was more BA in 3 wasn't he supposed to be dead anyway?"

And I think you are jumping the gun saying that Vergil is a necessary part of telling Nero's story nobody knows that yet.

 

[Dante's Stalker]

Re: Why should Vergil NOT come back?

I don't know if I'd like Vergil back as a zombie. I fell that his zombie days were over with Nelo. It would be nice for DMC to venture out into the territory of other Capcom games, maybe some vampires too, to spice things up.

Please tell me you're kidding. Vampires in DMC? What, are we going a la Twilight now? Considering all the interesting mythical/religious bad guys out there that Capcom has put in the series, and the hundreds more they HAVEN'T, bringing vampires, zombies and even werewolves into the mix smacks of NO IMAGINATION! And they wouldn't last long anyway, I mean, magic bullets, long-ass swords, devil arms - what chance do these pitiful creatures really stand against demon hunters? I don't want a Winchester/Buffy game, thank you very much. I think DMC is doing well with creating their own demons without needing to revert to petty things such as vampires.

Anyway. Here's another reason why Vergil shouldn't come back: Capcom wants him to be Nero's daddy. That is enough reason NOT to bring him back into the series. No Vergil means it's more likely that they'll toss the idea out the door.

Another reason why he shouldn't come back: if his human body is gone and Vergil himself died before becoming Nelo, then there really is no Vergil to return, is there? There's only Nelo, but not even he can come back because Dante finished him off. So, keeping that in mind, Vergil/Nelo shouldn't come back because it will only add another contradictory factor into the series. An unnecessary one. His return will create more plot holes than fill them, and that's a good enough reason why he shouldn't come back. I don't know about anyone else, but I'm pretty fed up trying to connect the dots in the series because I keep falling into these huge vortexes where there is no answer or reason to WTF is going on in the DMC universe. I still don't see why Nero had to come into the series. And I don't see why Vergil should come into the series again either.

 

[moseslmpg]

Re: Why should Vergil NOT come back?

If you have accepted his death why are you so desperate for a reason not to bring him back? It's simple if a character is dead it's not a good idea to find a way of bringing him back regardless of how important he appears to be.

I never said I accepted his death. But I don't outright reject it either. I simply do not regard it as necessarily true; He's like Schrodinger's Cat to me. There's no reason Vergil needs to be dead or stay dead. I totally disagree with your last statement though. The significance of the character is far more important than the details of his life and death, which should not limit him.

If Vergils body is no more I have no interest in what he has to offer, as a spirit is probably a lot harder to kill or destroy and so his story would go on for way too long.

So you only like Vergil's body then? I guess since Sparda is dead, they should stop focusing on him in the series too? What are you even talking about with the spirit nonsense? Vergil's body was gone even in DMC1 according to Koba, but he seemed to be functioning fine without it. Koba has effectively made his death a moot point, not me.

It wouldn't end until everyone is sick to death of Vergil and just wanted him to go away in some kind of brotherly sacrifice or showdown. Ironicly leaving his story where it is will keep him at the peak of his popularity as from here people will just pick holes.

Not necessarily. Why must you assume that if Vergil is brought back that he will be whored out? Remember, my questions assumes perfect execution of his return and that means he would not be whored out any more than other characters of the series. Also, if people want some brotherly sacrifice then they have yet to see it, since he has yet to perform anything like that. I myself would be looking forward to a final showdown, where they both live in the end but go their separate ways.

"I didn't like Dante in 4 I thought he was cooler in 1 and 3"
"I didn't like Vergil in this one he was more BA in 3 wasn't he supposed to be dead anyway?"

Perfect execution remember. This is an ideal world scenario, not a Kobayashi imperfect world. This objection does not apply.

And I think you are jumping the gun saying that Vergil is a necessary part of telling Nero's story nobody knows that yet.

I'm not jumping the gun at all. I could eb wrong, but all signs point to Vergil being an integral part to Nero's story.

Please tell me you're kidding. Vampires in DMC? What, are we going a la Twilight now? Considering all the interesting mythical/religious bad guys out there that Capcom has put in the series, and the hundreds more they HAVEN'T, bringing vampires, zombies and even werewolves into the mix smacks of NO IMAGINATION! And they wouldn't last long anyway, I mean, magic bullets, long-ass swords, devil arms - what chance do these pitiful creatures really stand against demon hunters? I don't want a Winchester/Buffy game, thank you very much. I think DMC is doing well with creating their own demons without needing to revert to petty things such as vampires.

Yeah, I was sort of kidding, matching VB's tongue-in-cheek response. But I don't think vampires and zombies are bad per se, they could be done well. Of course they wouldn't be Twilight, that would be horrible. But it would be nice to see more than just demons every once and a while. We did have Nevan after all.

Anyway. Here's another reason why Vergil shouldn't come back: Capcom wants him to be Nero's daddy. That is enough reason NOT to bring him back into the series. No Vergil means it's more likely that they'll toss the idea out the door.

Well, you know that isn't within the guidelines. And if Capcom wants it done, they are going to do it. Him supposedly being dead is not going stop them from doing anything.

Another reason why he shouldn't come back: if his human body is gone and Vergil himself died before becoming Nelo, then there really is no Vergil to return, is there? There's only Nelo, but not even he can come back because Dante finished him off. So, keeping that in mind, Vergil/Nelo shouldn't come back because it will only add another contradictory factor into the series. An unnecessary one. His return will create more plot holes than fill them, and that's a good enough reason why he shouldn't come back. I don't know about anyone else, but I'm pretty fed up trying to connect the dots in the series because I keep falling into these huge vortexes where there is no answer or reason to WTF is going on in the DMC universe. I still don't see why Nero had to come into the series. And I don't see why Vergil should come into the series again either.

Ah, that's not a good reason either. All that proves is that he can survive the death of his physical body. What would be stopping him from taking on another body or possessing another one *cough*Nero*cough*. If his body is destroyed, and we don't know for sure that his Nelo body is destroyed, then presumably his soul is still out there somewhere.

I agree that Nero has complicated things but remember Vergil could come back in a side-series of his own, or a prequel, or something. He doesn't have to get caught up in all that mess. But even if he does, he is certainly the simplest explanation for Nero, so he would definitely fill more holes than make them.

 

[Meg]

Re: Why should Vergil NOT come back?

But his soul was corrupted, so he isn't Vergil at all anymore. If he came back it would be as Nelo. I think that's what Chloe's saying.

 

[Vergil'sBitch]

Re: Why should Vergil NOT come back?

excuse me, what about vergil being a ghost?

 

[moseslmpg]

Re: Why should Vergil NOT come back?

But his soul was corrupted, so he isn't Vergil at all anymore. If he came back it would be as Nelo. I think that's what Chloe's saying.

Oh...well, I don't think that is necessarily true. With all this talk about souls and bodies, we tend to forget that we're talking nonsense most of the time. You can't suck someone's soul out and put it in another body or corrupt someone's soul literally, etc.

Although I will say this, if Vergil returns as anything other than a real character, he might as well stay dead. (That includes a ghost). Note that I don't think this has to be the case, i.e. he can come back as a real character.

 

[Meg]

Re: Why should Vergil NOT come back?

You say you can't corrupt a soul literally, but what if Capcom decides you can?

 

[Dante's Stalker]

Re: Why should Vergil NOT come back?

Exactly Meg! I'm glad someone understood what I was trying to say. I tend to be...wordy. Noticed my essay-reply posts lately? >_<

Ah, that's not a good reason either. All that proves is that he can survive the death of his physical body. What would be stopping him from taking on another body or possessing another one *cough*Nero*cough*. If his body is destroyed, and we don't know for sure that his Nelo body is destroyed, then presumably his soul is still out there somewhere.

I agree that Nero has complicated things but remember Vergil could come back in a side-series of his own, or a prequel, or something. He doesn't have to get caught up in all that mess. But even if he does, he is certainly the simplest explanation for Nero, so he would definitely fill more holes than make them.

UGH!!! You're not making this easy on me! LOL! Darn you!

You can't suck someone's soul out and put it in another body or corrupt someone's soul literally, etc.

But you're contradicting yourself here. If you can't put someone's soul into another body, then how did Vergil's soul come to possess Nero? AND, Agnus managed to harness the souls of demons and put them in armoured bodies he created. So that kinda kills your argument that it can't be done.

 

[moseslmpg]

Re: Why should Vergil NOT come back?

Capcom is stupid, that much is certain. They have that room in DMC4 where a soul is literally being sucked out of a person. I blame Kobayashi though. He should have just left things as they were with Nelo. I had always just assumed Nelo was Vergil's body with some armor on it, and there isn't any reason to think otherwise.

As far as I'm concerned, Kobayashi has ruined the series and poisoned the fandom. But that's kind of his job.

Chloe: I meant like really, in real life. Souls are metaphysical things. You can't just make a machine that sucks them up. I really think they give the Order way too much knowledge of demons and stuff. Agnus should not know how to do all that stuff.

As for how Vergil could possess Nero, well, spirit possession is a real thing in the world, that requires no technology. I'm not saying that this did happen, but given that the series is about demons, it is not too far out there for people to be possessed, especially by their father's half-demon ghost...in their arm...

 

[Meg]

Re: Why should Vergil NOT come back?

Capcom is stupid, that much is certain.

I had to quote that. To true. :lol:

 

[DreadnoughtDT]

Re: Why should Vergil NOT come back?

I would really hate for Nero to get possessed, because he wouldn't make a very good villain IMO. Nero as we know him would be gone, and Vergil would be all that remains. And as we've seen in DMC1, the only way to get rid of a possessed body is to destroy it.

 

[Dante's Stalker]

Re: Why should Vergil NOT come back?

Tehehehe >_<
But then there is also the fact that the power-hungry bad guys manage to turn themselves into demons, either via 'ascension ceremonies' whatever the hell that is, and by consuming/inserting demon tissue into their bodies to alter their DNA. So who's to say that they didn't find some remaining tissue from Vergil's human body and someone is making a clone of him? That sorts out the human body for his soul, doesn't it? And yeah, they CAN do that. If they can find a sample of Sparda's flesh on his own sword after 20-30 years (I'm referencing the DMC2 novel here), they can find a sample of Vergil's flesh on Yamato after a year or two or three.
So, Vergil could come back...

Shoot. I've gone off topic, haven't I? Gah damn it! I've just steered off the anti-Vergil path. I was doing so well. Burn it!

 

[Meg]

Re: Why should Vergil NOT come back?

@ DT-Whose to say Nero won't fight Vergil off and reclaim his body? That could be interesting.

 

[moseslmpg]

Re: Why should Vergil NOT come back?

I would really hate for Nero to get possessed, because he wouldn't make a very good villain IMO. Nero as we know him would be gone, and Vergil would be all that remains. And as we've seen in DMC1, the only way to get rid of a possessed body is to destroy it.

When I said possessed, I meant that the DB is Vergil type thing.

and Nero would make a great villain I think, if he was possessed. It wouldn't be him, you're right, but the DB gives him a unique feature that he could exploit. And the usual method for dealing with possession is exorcism. So, they wouldn't have to kill him.


This thread is all off-topic anyway. I'm still waiting for an argument, but I guess in the meantime it is pointless to be uptight about it being off-topic.

 

[Darth Angelo]

Re: Why should Vergil NOT come back?

Ah, that's not a good reason either. All that proves is that he can survive the death of his physical body. What would be stopping him from taking on another body or possessing another one *cough*Nero*cough*. If his body is destroyed, and we don't know for sure that his Nelo body is destroyed, then presumably his soul is still out there somewhere.

First of all, DMC and MGS are not comparable at all.

The Devilbringer resurrected Yamato so if Vergil awakens within Nero it will be because of his right arm.

Snakes brother awakens using another characters right arm.
Dantes brother awakens using another characters right arm.

(Yeah I know it wasn't really Liquid but that was the plot that was used at the time)


This is so pointless and is obviously going to end with everyone getting bored of having everything they come up with snubbed and moses finishing the thread with
"well I guess nobody was able to come up with a good enough reason..as I suspected ^_^"

 

[Vergil'sBitch]

Can i just say, the whole thing of Nero's arm and the phantom in his DT being Vergil, is too obvious. Capcom, don't do obvious.

What's to say that th ghost behind Nero isn't the spirit of Yamato?
Like Nevan, Beowulf, cerberus etc, when they were defeated, Their souls made the devil arms.
Whats to say that there wasn't a demon called Yamato that Sparda defeated. Or a demon who gave up his soul to give the sword its own power.

As for Vergil coming back. They are either cheap or flawed ways of bringing him back.
You can't expect someone to say, "will bring him back like nothing ever happened" i'm pretty sure that it doesn't work like that.

 

[moseslmpg]

Re: Why should Vergil NOT come back?

The Devilbringer resurrected Yamato so if Vergil awakens within Nero it will be because of his right arm.

If the DB is a result of Vergil possessing Nero, then Vergil woke up the Yamato. Really, the DB has to be connected to Vergil for it to specifically fix the Yamato.

Snakes brother awakens using another characters right arm.
Dantes brother awakens using another characters right arm.

(Yeah I know it wasn't really Liquid but that was the plot that was used at the time)

I think that is way too simplistic. Just becaue MGS and DMC has twins doesn't make them comparable. DMC is better compared to Inuyasha. Sesshomaru does something with his arm IIRC.

This is so pointless and is obviously going to end with everyone getting bored of having everything they come up with snubbed and moses finishing the thread with
"well I guess nobody was able to come up with a good enough reason..as I suspected ^_^"

Ah, you know me so well by now

I do suspect that there is no rational argument, but that's why I made the thread, to see if there was. There could be but it could still remain hidden due to the aversion to arguing on this forum. Or maybe there isn't one. There are reasons he shouldn't come back in certain circumstances and whatnot, but those are more particular to the circumstances than Vergil.

Can i just say, the whole thing of Nero's arm and the phantom in his DT being Vergil, is too obvious. Capcom, don't do obvious.

This is why I'm wary of the DB. Knowing Kobayashi, he could have set up the whole thing as a smokescreen trying to be "clever." So while all the cues point towards Vergil, I half expect him to come out and be like "Nope, it was Arius lololol."

What's to say that th ghost behind Nero isn't the spirit of Yamato?
Like Nevan, Beowulf, cerberus etc, when they were defeated, Their souls made the devil arms.
Whats to say that there wasn't a demon called Yamato that Sparda defeated. Or a demon who gave up his soul to give the sword its own power.

Very very unlikely. Yamato and Rebellion do not seem to have any demon inside them, and it is implied that they have always been Sparda's swords. They are what I call neutral DAs (not created from a spirit but imbued with the spirit of the wielder), as opposed to sentient DAs (Nevan, Beowulf, etc.) sapient DAs (Alastor and Ifrit [they can talk]), artificial DAs, and pseudo-DAs like Agni and Rudra.

In any case, it would be far more complicated to have to nvent a whole new demon and explain his whole backstory than it just being Vergil. It even looks like an advanced version of his DMC3 DT, so it is pretty solid I'd say,

As for Vergil coming back. They are either cheap or flawed ways of bringing him back.
You can't expect someone to say, "will bring him back like nothing ever happened" i'm pretty sure that it doesn't work like that.

Again, this is an issue of lack of imagination. There are ways to bring Vergil back that are not cheap or flawed. I don't want him to come back as if nothing happened, because it would just make him a flat character; Bringing back DMC3 Vergil would be a mistake. He can come back while still keeping in mind his past experiences. It would be the only example of character development in between games, and it would make sense, considering all the stuff he has been through.

 

[DreadnoughtDT]

Okay, you say there are ways to bring him back that aren't cheap or flawed. Give us some of those ways that you have, so that we don't have to be kept in the dark. Other people have asked this as well, and you've kind of ignored them.

 

[Dante's Stalker]

Because it would defeat the point of the thread. But there IS another thread for the topic on how to bring Vergil back, so I'm gonna side with DT on this and back him up. Why don't you post and give us scenarios in which Vergil could come back, less the cheap and flawed labels? I would post, but my ideas are bound to be far insignificant in comparison to yours Moses.