Why should Vergil NOT come back? Read FIRST post before responding

[moseslmpg]

Well, you cant blame me for only following the games, thats what DMC is first and foremost.

Actually, I wasn't going to note my opposition because you stated what responses you want in the OP, answers to things I cant give you. I just slipped it in when I wanted to question you about the 10 years in between DMC3 and 1, the only reason I posted here. I don't want Vergil back, flawed opinion or not and I cant state it in a way that would please your narrow criteria.

I don't blame you or people like you who only follow the games, but I can't take their objections to story innovations like bringing Vergil back with any seriousness. If someone isn't fully educated then their opinion tends to hold less weight.

As for you not wanting Vergil back, that is your prerogative, of course. But the way I see it, if it cannot be expressed in logical, relatively objective terms, it is simply a matter of taste and is irrelevant to the betterment of the series and point of this thread. I find that this opinion is invariably the result of lack of imagination, or some kind of misplaced contrarianism, which I have been guilty of before as well tbh.

In any case, I apologize for my brusque responses to your simple request for clarification. I was girding my loins for an assault on my arguments that never came, alas.

I would actually prefer for Capcom to explore a new theme other than Dante going against his brother. Its been done, and I highly doubt Capcom actually even considered Vergil until his fanbase gotten vocal. I would rather for Capcom to either add more to the Nero / Dante foil after DmC or actually make Dante learn more about his father, Sparda and throw a few twists in there for good measure. Imagine, for some unexplainable reason, Dante had to fight Sparda in order to truly master his demon powers. Theres actually plenty of interesting plotlines they could add to freshen DMC that dont have to include Vergil. Like a plotline explaining how the hell Dante is going to escape from hell in DMC2.

The thing is, Vergil is a surefire way to explore new themes because his setting and motivations would be totally different from Dante or Nero. (BTW, Dante and Nero are not foils by any means, Nero is like a Robin, not the Joker). And Sparda? That is Vergil obsession in life, becoming more like his father. The only really certain way to learn more about Sparda is to explore Hell and see how he changed it and the legends demons tell about him. Again, Vergil's domain. It sounds like pretty much everything you want from the series could best be achieved by Vergil, you just don't include him in your equations. Just because Capcom listened to the fans doesn't mean the fans should be punished for it. One tip in business: give the customers what they want.

I would rather Capcom not rehash Vergil again to appease fanboy's and girl's wet dreams (no offense to anyone). He was a great character, that really don't need to be explored anymore until Sparda and Nero is explored more. Capcom practically threw Nero into a new game with a half assed explanation and no closure. Vergil had his closure essentially. Dante freed him from his suffering of being the Nelo Angelo.

Ok, but you woud rather they rehash Dante for the Nth time? A character that pretty much by definition, has no motivation after DMC1? If you accuse Vergil of being tired, overexposed, and having his closure, then Dante had that 2 games before he did, and should be retired as well. By your logic, Nero should be the new protagonist of DMC (except, uh oh, he truly has no motivation either). This is of course ignoring the fact, that Vergil had no closure at all, and the last time we saw him was almost literally a cliffhanger.

To be clear, I don't want Vergil to just come back as fanservice either, but I don't think he has to. Certainly to no more extent than Dante does now. If he comes back, I want him to be a genuine character, which is possible to do.

And BTW, Lady and Trish are nowhere near integral to the series. If anything, they should have been thrown away with their respective games just like Lucia was. They were Bond girls. And Nero? He wasn't even really a character, he was a gameplay device with a face. The fact of the matter is that Vergil is the second most significant character in the series, and if anyone deserves the focus, it is him.

Like I said, it is just a lack of imagination. Since you can't think of the ways in which Vergil could become a real, authentic character that can deepened the series, you assume there is none. That is fallacious reasoning.

 

[Esura]

I don't blame you or people like you who only follow the games, but I can't take their objections to story innovations like bringing Vergil back with any seriousness. If someone isn't fully educated then their opinion tends to hold less weight.

So anyone that hasn't followed obscure novels and comics will have opinions that tends to hold less weight? That sounds kind of elitist to me.

As for you not wanting Vergil back, that is your prerogative, of course. But the way I see it, if it cannot be expressed in logical, relatively objective terms, it is simply a matter of taste and is irrelevant to the betterment of the series and point of this thread. I find that this opinion is invariably the result of lack of imagination, or some kind of misplaced contrarianism, which I have been guilty of before as well tbh.

In any case, I apologize for my brusque responses to your simple request for clarification. I was girding my loins for an assault on my arguments that never came, alas.

Hey, no problem. As long as no one start name calling its all good.

The thing is, Vergil is a surefire way to explore new themes because his setting and motivations would be totally different from Dante or Nero. (BTW, Dante and Nero are not foils by any means, Nero is like a Robin, not the Joker). And Sparda? That is Vergil obsession in life, becoming more like his father. The only really certain way to learn more about Sparda is to explore Hell and see how he changed it and the legends demons tell about him. Again, Vergil's domain. It sounds like pretty much everything you want from the series could best be achieved by Vergil, you just don't include him in your equations. Just because Capcom listened to the fans doesn't mean the fans should be punished for it. One tip in business: give the customers what they want.

But what you just said could just be easily as done without Vergil actually appearing at all. I wont deny that Vergil is an important character but you really do exaggerate his importance to an extreme degree.

Ok, but you woud rather they rehash Dante for the Nth time? A character that pretty much by definition, has no motivation after DMC1? If you accuse Vergil of being tired, overexposed, and having his closure, then Dante had that 2 games before he did, and should be retired as well. By your logic, Nero should be the new protagonist of DMC (except, uh oh, he truly has no motivation either). This is of course ignoring the fact, that Vergil had no closure at all, and the last time we saw him was almost literally a cliffhanger.

Dante is the undisputed main character of the series. You cant really deny that. Even though Nero was main character in DMC4 (like Raiden in MGS2), Dante is ultimately the star of the series. And you make it seem as though Dante and Vergil are equal to importance to the series, when it is really not...at all. As I said before, Vergil is an important character, but his sole purpose in the series is to be an antagonist to Dante and serve as his foil.

To be clear, I don't want Vergil to just come back as fanservice either, but I don't think he has to. Certainly to no more extent than Dante does now. If he comes back, I want him to be a genuine character, which is possible to do.

Again, you make it seem as though Dante and Vergil are of equal importance in the series, and they are not. There are myriad of ways you can bring back Vergil into the fold into the series, but it would be purely fan service, because, Vergil as a character has served his purpose of shaping Dante and there is no way you can bring him back without making him feel like fan service, even if they bring him back in a way thats not completely ridiculous.

And BTW, Lady and Trish are nowhere near integral to the series. If anything, they should have been thrown away with their respective games just like Lucia was. They were Bond girls. And Nero? He wasn't even really a character, he was a gameplay device with a face. The fact of the matter is that Vergil is the second most significant character in the series, and if anyone deserves the focus, it is him.

No, Vergil isnt the second most significant character in the series...Dante is. Sparda is pretty much the most significant character in the series, because he is the backbone for the lore of the series. He is the...Miyamoto Mushashi or King Arthur of DMC, stuff of legends man.

Like I said, it is just a lack of imagination. Since you can't think of the ways in which Vergil could become a real, authentic character that can deepened the series, you assume there is none. That is fallacious reasoning.

Actually, you have to have a pretty good imagination to make Vergil be alive in the series. An even better one to make him come back in a way that makes sense.


Any discrepancies in my post such as spelling or grammar or whatever, deal with it, I just got off work when I posted this and I'm tired. >_<

 

[moseslmpg]

So anyone that hasn't followed obscure novels and comics will have opinions that tends to hold less weight? That sounds kind of elitist to me.

Yes, when it comes to questions about the story of the series, because they don't have the full story. It's the same reason you don't want a surgeon only in the middle of training to operate on you. It may seem elitist, but people are elite for certain reasons, and in this case such elitism is warranted. If you want to do the work and go through the whole series meticulously, you too can join the ranks of us illumined ones.

But what you just said could just be easily as done without Vergil actually appearing at all. I wont deny that Vergil is an important character but you really do exaggerate his importance to an extreme degree.

Actually, none of it can be done more efficiently without Vergil. Without him, you would have to invent more new and superfluous characters and use so many non sequitur plot devices that it would make the series far too complex. I mean, you can kill a fly with a rocket launcher, or you can just swat it. Vergil is there, why not use him? And I don't exaggerate Vergil's importance at all, in fact, I see his potential for what it is. The problem is that you and other people severely underestimate his potential to an almost insane degree. You act as if his importance is on par with Enzo's, even below throwaway characters like Trish or Lady.

Dante is the undisputed main character of the series. You cant really deny that. Even though Nero was main character in DMC4 (like Raiden in MGS2), Dante is ultimately the star of the series. And you make it seem as though Dante and Vergil are equal to importance to the series, when it is really not...at all. As I said before, Vergil is an important character, but his sole purpose in the series is to be an antagonist to Dante and serve as his foil.

This is a tautology, as I have pointed out before. Dante is only the de facto protagonist of the series, and only really of the first 3 games at this point. DMC4 proves that he need not be the main character, and that his position is simply an accident of the series, not an essential aspect of it. There is nothing about Dante which designates him as the main character of anything. His motivation and quest were finished in DMC1, and he doesn't really have any heroic qualities which other characters don't share. Again, see DMC4, where Nero is the main character, thus disproving your point. To address Vergil's "sole purpose," I will refer to the distinction between accidental and essential factors again, and also point out that, the same thing can equally be said about Dante. The only difference is that Dante has had more narrative focus until now, and even that is dissolving.

And by your own logic, if Vergil's sole purpose is to be Dante's foil, then he is equally important as Dante, if not more so; if Dante has 4 games, then Vergil has a rightful claim to an equal focus.

Again, you make it seem as though Dante and Vergil are of equal importance in the series, and they are not. There are myriad of ways you can bring back Vergil into the fold into the series, but it would be purely fan service, because, Vergil as a character has served his purpose of shaping Dante and there is no way you can bring him back without making him feel like fan service, even if they bring him back in a way thats not completely ridiculous.

They are of equal importance as far as the story of DMC goes. If you consider the only point of DMC to be saving the world from Mundus, then perhaps Vergil isn't as important, but the point of DMC is exploring the legacy of Sparda, and Vergil is an equal part of that legacy. That was emphasized in the mangas. And for the billionth time, Vergil's return would not necessarily be fanservice (and to clarify, something that pleases fans is not fanservice), no more so than Dante's incessant encores are. Whatever argument you can make in this vein can be used equally or to greater effectiveness on Dante; He has fulfilled his sole purpose, he has stagnated, he is just fanservice (he was literally in DMC4). Vergil has done none of these things.

No, Vergil isnt the second most significant character in the series...Dante is. Sparda is pretty much the most significant character in the series, because he is the backbone for the lore of the series. He is the...Miyamoto Mushashi or King Arthur of DMC, stuff of legends man.

Sparda isn't actually a character in the series, he is more of a plot device. But your point is taken. In that case, Vergil is tied with the second most important person to the series. You can look at it from the angle of him making Dante, or from the angle of hi representing one complete half of Sparda's legacy, or of even influencing events from "beyond the grave" in DMC4, but it cannot be denied by a person in their right mind.

Actually, you have to have a pretty good imagination to make Vergil be alive in the series. An even better one to make him come back in a way that makes sense.

On this, we agree, although we may disagree on the implications of such a thing. This is why I specified in the first post that I was assuming that his return would be handled well, "in a perfect world," and not by hacks like Kobayashi. But let me say, if someone like me can think of just one viable way to reintegrate him into the series, for the betterment of the series, not as fanservice, then the objections are rendered invalid. And I can.

 

[Vampi]

Alright...I'll hold my tongue on that one, and I won't say what I was going to say

I'd argue that you can't prove he SHOULD be in it though.

I'm not mocking you at all, its a legitimate offer, give me a factual reason why he SHOULD be in it? No antagonism or subtext attached, I wanna hear your thoughts

Have you read this whole thread? Moses has made it abundantly clear on why Vergil Shoulda Woulda Coulda return to the DMC series or at least have a spinoff of his own.

I can't believe people still find Dante so interesting, at least Nero has his mysterious origin to count on, Dante has nothing now (maybe besides his crack addiction in that so called DMC game), and mind you i don't like Nero.

Anyway, Moses presented his reasons that practically are facts. So what do you have to say now?

 

[darkslayer13]

The only really certain way to learn more about Sparda is to explore Hell and see how he changed it and the legends demons tell about him. Again, Vergil's domain.

since Dante is in Hell after Devil May Cry2. he could be the one to explore it. it would actually work better than having Vergil explore Hell. it would show what happens after Devil May Cry2 and Dante's gameplay is more developed. Vergil has had three weapons( all currently in some one else's possesion) each with a very simple moveset ( one combo each) and he only has one style. Dante has had a large number of weapons with more detaled movesets ( e.g. Lucifer's Five basic combos) and four different styles. using Dante as a charicter would simply take less work. Vergil should be brought back but in a situation that needs to have Vergil involved (it would be hard to expand Devil May Cry's story without a story like that). Dante can explore Sparda's past just as well as his brother.

 

[moseslmpg]

since Dante is in Hell after Devil May Cry2. he could be the one to explore it. it would actually work better than having Vergil explore Hell. it would show what happens after Devil May Cry2 and Dante's gameplay is more developed. Vergil has had three weapons( all currently in some one else's possesion) each with a very simple moveset ( one combo each) and he only has one style. Dante has had a large number of weapons with more detaled movesets ( e.g. Lucifer's Five basic combos) and four different styles. using Dante as a charicter would simply take less work. Vergil should be brought back but in a situation that needs to have Vergil involved (it would be hard to expand Devil May Cry's story without a story like that). Dante can explore Sparda's past just as well as his brother.

Well, it is implied Dante makes it back to DMC in the end as well. On top of that, the Hell he was in isn't reall the same Hell we saw in DMC1 and DMC3. When I say exploring Hell, I mean the history,the various places, the different types of demons, etc. Vergil has been in hell for 10 years, while Dante was in there for a few moments. There would be no way to justify Dante going sightseeing, while there are ample opportunities for Vergil to do so. I'm not saying Dante can't do it, but it makes more sense to use Vergil since he has a huge chunk of time available earlier in the series, and to allocate the time after DMC2 to something actually significant.

And we should make sure not to put a greater burden of necessity on Vergil than on Dante. Since there is no end goal in mind for the series, the only necessity for a story is that it is related to Sparda in some way and it is engaging and interesting (which btw DMC2 failed at).

Also, I agree using Dante would take less work, but since when has the easier way been the best way? That attitude of laziness is what got us DMC4, and it is something that would have to be totally banished before they even though of doing a Vergil story. It takes more work, but because of that it is more gratifying and more expansive for the series.

 

[V's patron]

moses
i do like how you've explained the potential of vergil as a character and how he could improve the series.
it just depends how they handle his resurrection. Besides they can actually use that to move the plot along because how many people in this universe can full off a complete and perfect resurrection

 

[kenjiharimaCU]

Because the succeeding Devil May Cry games is not anymore in the vision of it's original creator.

 

[Virago]

Ok, so there are about nine pages of responses right now, so I'm not going to be reading through everything. Apologies in advance if some one else has already covered what I'm about to say.

First, Moses, I think you're phrasing the question so that you can eventually say, "See, no one can give a really really really good reason for why Vergil can't come back, so clearly he can and it will make for a great storyline/plot twist!" The fact that he's dead is a great reason for him not to come back. I mean, unless you like stories where static-but-complete characters take over the show with their melodrama. The fact that he was in hell or wherever from DMC3 to DMC1, probably 10-15 years, is also a great reason for him not to show up. Vergil's game-canon story: He and Dante don't get along, he's power hungry and wants to be a demon, "be careful what you wish for," DEAD. The end. It's concise, unsatisfying, but gives you all the information you need about him.

But I will try to respond in a way that satisfies your request. I don't want to see Vergil come back because of what I like to call the Darth Vader Effect and the Spike Effect.

So, in the 1970s/80s Star Wars movies, you have Darth Vader, personal attack dog of the emperor. Basic story: he had amazing potential as a Jedi, but wanted more power, so he threw away everything he learned and held dear in power's name. The sad irony is that his power warps him into a weaker being that he would have otherwise been, which he doesn't see until it's way too late. That's a great villain. I can relate to that, but I can also stand outside of it and apply that old adage, "power corrupts."

Enter the 2000s Star Wars movies, which I personally like to pretend don't exist. Suddenly Darth Vader is all complicated. He's emotional, he has a mean streak, but he's still the protagonist. He has visions of his family getting hurt and sees violence all around him, so he decides he wants more power for the explicit purpose of protecting other people from harm, even though he outright knows it won't go well. Character is thereafter ruined! Darth effing Vader runs crying to the evil empire because it's his own damn fault the people he loves died, and no one understands him. That's a lame, boring villain. That story says "We want people to like this guy, but we know we're already in a hole because he's supposed to turn evil at some point. Ah well, he had really good intentions, right guys? Right??"

Now, the Spike Effect is in reference to Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Spike the vampire is introduced as a 200+ year old serial killer, and it really works. By the time season 7 rolls around, he's really just a misunderstood ball of emotional damage in need of a big hug. My face => :wacko:

And that is exactly what will happen to a resurrected Vergil, who in game-canon was a bit like that original Darth Vader. Same deal for another prequel story, though I'm not sure how much earlier in life for the brothers the original line of games can go; they were only 18 or 19 in DMC3.

I did notice that you also had an assumption of competency for the directors, creators, etc. Well, honestly, Devil May Cry as a whole is not The Great Gatsby - it's not even Star Wars. The story isn't ever going to be so developed that they avoid the above mentioned pitfalls of bring back/explaining a fan favored static character without ruining the original framework of said character. That's that.

If, on the other hand, we're talking about the reboot, and Vergil's path goes a different direction entirely, I would be open to discussion. There isn't a great reason for him not to show up there, maybe not as THE villain, but perhaps an antagonistic foil to Dante.

As for "why does Dante need to be in any DMC games," oh, I don't know. I guess DMC4 proved he doesn't have to be there. But then we just have another guns'n'swords'n'demons game, right?

 

[Vergil&Dante]

Re: Why should Vergil NOT come back?

Both are one and the same thing thats like me saying

Why SHOULD he come back and DON'T say "because he is a son of Sparda" or "because of Yamato" or "we never saw him die"
Yes you could think of other reasons but they are now going to look pathetic in comparison to the obvious reasons.


I don't want Vergil back because I believe he was never meant to come back and that the only reason it's even on the cards is because fans are so obsessed with him they refuse to even comprehend the idea of him being no more. Like a spoilt child who refuses to share, a narrow minded view on the situation perhaps but the obvious has been banned by the thread auther.

And to the bonus question: He shouldn't have been in 2 or 4, imo he hasn't floated my boat since 1.

I have also thought that he was never meant to come back because his story in DMC3 was soo great, that if they gave him a new role that might be so bad that it destroys his rep. from dmc3.
Ain't that a good reason that Vergil shouldn't come back???

Anyway I hope that Vergil will come back in reboot and will show/tell us the reason, why he wants his fathers power a year before DMC3... And maybe there will be an co-op with Dante and Vergil like they mention in DMC3 that they used to say "JACKPOT" together!!!

 

[dark.knight93]

Well. I'm a new fan myself, but I agree if Vergil does come back. Like Moses said, DMC is about Sparda. And Dante is one half of Sparda's legacy, which is of course the essence of DMC! If DMC would continue with only Dante (who has, without doubt, almost reached the end of his blade and tale)then DMC would only be half-complete. Bringing back Vergil would be a good idea. His story is still raw, much is not known about him. Throw him in with a satisfactory explanation of how he returned after Dante whacked him in DMC 1 and DMC will live longer.

But hey, that's just my opinion.

 

[Todko]

Who said Vergil won't come back, huh? He'll back you'll see.
SR_ZerO

 

[Darth Angelo]

Who said Vergil won't come back, huh? He'll back you'll see.
SR_ZerO

nuh-uhh he ded.

Only way he is coming back is through someone else which wouldn't be the same.

 

[Darkstar Darin]

nuh-uhh he ded.

Only way he is coming back is through someone else which wouldn't be the same.

oh u mean like DMC4?

 

[V's patron]

I think the best way to do it would be to give him a bigger role in the reboot because there is less baggage and more freedom to maneuver with the character.
In continuity would be hard because i dont have a lot faith in them to pull it off since they can barely keep me interested in dante . it still could work but it is insanely tricky to pull off. I would do it but leave him in hell and have him wander it trying to figure out what he should do next but i would leave dante out of it since his tomfoolery in 4 was annoying.

 

[Darth Angelo]

oh u mean like DMC4?

I am still not convinced that it was Vergil.

 

[Darkstar Darin]

I forgot who pointed it out, but the "ghost" in Nero's DT really does look like a matured version of Vergil's DT, that n I doubt Capcom would have "some other demon" (not convinced Nero's even a quarter demon) wielding Yamato

 

[Sparda's rejected son]

Didn't one of the creators say he didn't care for Vergil or something like that? if I remember correctly, than really that's your answer as to Vergil returning.

 

[V's patron]

I think that was kobayashi.

 

[V]

Everyone says Vergil is dead, etc. but we all know full well CAPCOM (or whoever they employ to make games in future) can "resurrect" him anytime they like. They can do whatever they want to Dante as we can see, so they can do whatever they want to Vergil also. And the biggest reason I can see for a Vergil return is if the new Dante doesn't turn out to be popular, they will just return to the old formula and may even add Vergil/Nelo Angelo to the mix because he's an integral part of the canon that players can accept.

There's no such thing anymore as a story or a character with an end in the games/movie (or even the book) industry. People think Harry Potter is over - but is it? At any time J.K. Rowling might choose to write more Harry Potter books, or the movie studios with the rights might make more Harry Potter related films, and they would get interest simply because they are known and accepted characters no matter what new guise they appear in. Game series that have been forgotten or are unknown to younger generations are being resurrected plenty lately, the movie industry is splurging on superhero IP, some of the characters practically unknown to those who don't read comic books. So as long as the characters have existed at all, there is always a chance someone will bring them back in future.

With this in mind, I am 99.9% certain Vergil will show up again, sometime, somewhere. It's just a matter of when.