Why should Vergil NOT come back? Read FIRST post before responding

[The crazy demon]

Re: Why should Vergil NOT come back?

Ok, i readed the first post and i think i can reply to your question again, this time trying to follow your guide lines.

At the end of DMC2 i feeled it was like a cliffhanger, which means there is still a part more to tell.

And following your guidelines my first post was not needed as it didnt followed them.

For me Vergil shouldnt come back because there are new characters that deserve to play a part of the events of DMC too, characters like Nero, Kyrie Trish or Lady may or may not have something more to add to the DMC series.

 

[moseslmpg]

Re: Why should Vergil NOT come back?

Thanks for reading the first post.

Anyway, there are lots of characters, but then why should Vergil suffer because of that? If anything, he should have more preference since he is Dante's twin brother while all other characters are only incidentally related to Sparda. Really, are we saying that Lady has more significance to DMC than Vergil? The more the merrier, I say.

 

[Vergil'sBitch]

Re: Why should Vergil NOT come back?

You say about Vergil being dropped... what about Lucia?
One game and she was thrown on the trash heap... if they didn't intent to make more of her, they should never have brought her into the series.

Lucia hasn't been in another game. So Vergil should count himself lucky that he got in two of them.

And i don't care if its off-topic, thats another opinion.

 

[moseslmpg]

Re: Why should Vergil NOT come back?

I have no issue with Lucia coming back so I don't know what your point is. Lucia doesn't have any real impetus to come back, since she has the least connection to Sparda, but I think they should revisit her eventually. I think Lucia's deal is more about the fact that Capcom "dropped" DMC2 totally and hasn't revisited much of anything from that game.

Vergil as a character was only in DMC3, he was a plot device in DMC1. The fact that Lucia hasn't come back doesn't justify Vergil never returning to the series, ever, especially given the fact that Dante is in 4 games and Vergil is as closely related to Sparda, if not moreso, than his brother.

------------

It seems as if this thread has run its course, alas, when people willfully post off topic comments. I could conclude that there is no reasonable objection to Vergil's returning to the series, but it would be a little premature perhaps. If other people want to continue to post flippant responses, that is their right, I suppose, but I will respond in kind or not at all. Although I hope a formidable argument will make itself known anon, I am a patient person.

Forsooth.

 

[Darth Angelo]

Re: Why should Vergil NOT come back?

But how do you decide what's the "best" argument? Surely it's subject to your personal criteria? Therefore no matter what we say, and there is crap-all wrong with my two pence worth as well as everyone else's, you simply wont be satisfied.

This is a common feature in your threads - you ask us something, we reply and you go on about how we're not answering you correctly. Can you concede that we are trying our best? People come here to discuss things and enjoy it - not to be beaten down when they offer up their opinions and theories. I don't know what your bigger picture is here, but it's almost like you're researching for something and we're not giving you the data you want.

I think you called it right here Angel.
(TBH I think we are just being made to run around in circles for the sake of a hollow victory.)

Our reasons can be dissected all day but the fact remains there are still people who just don't want Vergil back whether you think the reasons are good enough or not is irrelevant it's not going to change.
I am not going to lie my biggest reason is still because I think it's just people who can't let go of a cool character and hold him in higher regard than he was meant to.
Vergil is not necessarily a main character of DMC just because he is a son of Sparda just like Solidus Snake was not a main character of MGS just because he was a clone of Big Boss. The series owes Vergil nothing and it kind of owes Dante nothing either and their return will always be down to nothing but a fanboy service.

 

[moseslmpg]

Re: Why should Vergil NOT come back?

I think you called it right here Angel.
(TBH I think we are just being made to run around in circles for the sake of a hollow victory.)

This is not about victory or defeat. I don't understand what the big deal is with asking for a little intellectual rigor in one thread. Contrary to the inane popular belief that everyone has their own truth and logic means nothing in the face of opinion, there are established ways to determine if one argument is better than another. I'm not going to explain them because anyone can find out by reading wikipedia or tking a Philosophy 101 class. And I'm not making you do anything. If you don't think you can satisfy the guidelines, then I encourage you and anyone else who is thinking about it, to not post.

Our reasons can be dissected all day but the fact remains there are still people who just don't want Vergil back whether you think the reasons are good enough or not is irrelevant it's not going to change.

I don't care if there are people who don't want him back. They can keep those opinions for all I care. The purpose of this thread was ONLY, I repeat, ONLY to determine whether any rational arguments for Vergil not returning existed. It was NOT to change everyone's mind or convince them that they have to want Vergil back. The fact that some people will enver want him back is more of a testament to their stubbornness and lack of imagination than anything else, and every opinion is not to be afforded equal weight, especially when they are not reasonable.

I am not going to lie my biggest reason is still because I think it's just people who can't let go of a cool character and hold him in higher regard than he was meant to.

Believe me, that is not the case here. I was like you before, opposing the worship of Vergil as the cool character just to be a contrarian (although such a position is spurious and fruitless), but I am not supporting his return based on his coolness. I am doing so based on a genuine desire to see the seris thrive and become deeper and more complex than it has been in the past. It seems as if many people would rather see the series stagnate than let a single character return, due to their own personal prejudices and close-mindedness. Again, that is their "right" but I have a little more faith in the series than that.

Vergil is not necessarily a main character of DMC just because he is a son of Sparda just like Solidus Snake was not a main character of MGS just because he was a clone of Big Boss. The series owes Vergil nothing and it kind of owes Dante nothing either and their return will always be down to nothing but a fanboy service.

First of all, DMC and MGS are not comparable at all. MGS has a level of complexity focusing on 2 characters that DMC could never hope for, so they have no reason to bring in other main characters. But what is your point? DMC owes no one anything? The series runs on fanboy service? Aren't you just arguing that the series should end? How again is this an argument against ONLY Vergil, and not every single character?

This isn't about DMC owing Vergil anything, it is about tapping into the potential that the series has. If you aren't interested in that potential, then you don't have any reason to argue against it. It seems almst like you don't even like the series and want it to fail.

 

[Edsabre]

Re: Why should Vergil NOT come back?

I love Vergil and I'd be thrilled to see him again and I'd be especially happy to be able to play as him.

However, sadly, I feel that there's really no need. Vergil was great, but his story is pretty much over. If you keep bringing him back for no good reason then he'll become very cheapened as a character. Sometimes its best to let a character's story end and move on, keeping the good memeories you have of that character.

Vergil's story is done. His physical body is destroyed and his power and soul has been passed on. Requiescat in pace.

 

[moseslmpg]

Re: Why should Vergil NOT come back?

Did you even read the first post?

EDIT: That was rhetorical. Read the first post and try to stay within the guidelines. You haven't said anything that everyone else hasn't said 50 times already. It is a very tired and irrelevant response.

Is there any way I can change the thread title to include (Read first post BEFORE posting?)

 

[Edsabre]

Re: Why should Vergil NOT come back?

Did you even read the first post?

EDIT: That was rhetorical. Read the first post and try to stay within the guidelines. You haven't said anything that everyone else hasn't said 50 times already. It is a very tired and irrelevant response.

Is there any way I can change the thread title to include (Read first post BEFORE posting?)

Oh, well excuse me. I didnt realize that I couldnt state my opinion because others had already expressed similar opinions. How dare I, right?

How about just this. Vergil's dead, ok? He's dead. He got his butt kicked in DMC3 and ended up in hell and then he got his butt kicked again in DMC1 and died completely. His body is gone and his weapon and soul now reside within Nero. That's why he cant come back because it would make ABSOLUTELY NO SENSE WHATSOEVER.

I wonder if this response was good enough for you?

 

[Vergil'sBitch]

Re: Why should Vergil NOT come back?

^It won't because you've just stated thats why he can't come back, not why he shouldn't.
(Don't worry, We've all been told it)

 

[Darth Angelo]

Re: Why should Vergil NOT come back?

First of all, DMC and MGS are not comparable at all. MGS has a level of complexity focusing on 2 characters that DMC could never hope for, so they have no reason to bring in other main characters. But what is your point? DMC owes no one anything? The series runs on fanboy service? Aren't you just arguing that the series should end? How again is this an argument against ONLY Vergil, and not every single character?

This isn't about DMC owing Vergil anything, it is about tapping into the potential that the series has. If you aren't interested in that potential, then you don't have any reason to argue against it. It seems almst like you don't even like the series and want it to fail.

I just want it to start heading towards some kind of conclusion or if not start heading in a totally different direction and come back to that big conclusion whenever (the last thing I want is another DMC3).
They have Nero to sort out, they have the plot of DMC2 to sort out, they have Mundus' supposed survival to sort out. As glad as I was of him Nero was introduced at a kind of inconvenient time. Addding the return of Vergil is only going to make the 'to do list' bigger and cause more problems that it will solve. Just like Nero has I will admit don't do it again in the next breath just because people think Vergil is a better character.

Making him a playable character in the bloody palace, sure go for it thats a great idea but don't reintroduce him into the plot. He is not so important that the whole series should be put on hold and reorganized to try and think of a random reason to bring him back or explain how he managed to survive.

 

[moseslmpg]

Re: Why should Vergil NOT come back?

I wonder if this response was good enough for you?

No. Death is a very lame reason, especially considering he was already dead when you fought him in DMC1 (according to Koba).

I just want it to start heading towards some kind of conclusion or if not start heading in a totally different direction and come back to that big conclusion whenever (the last thing I want is another DMC3).

Then we want the same thing. I want DMC to be moving to some conclusion rather than becoming like the MM series with endless sequels with only tiny variations. The only difference is that for some reason you think that Vergil would sidetrack that conclusion rather than catalyze it.

They have Nero to sort out, they have the plot of DMC2 to sort out, they have Mundus' supposed survival to sort out. As glad as I was of him Nero was introduced at a kind of inconvenient time. Addding the return of Vergil is only going to make the 'to do list' bigger and cause more problems that it will solve. Just like Nero has I will admit don't do it again in the next breath just because people think Vergil is a better character.

Nero, yes. DMC2, maybe. Mundus, not really. The thing about Vergil is that he is an established character, not some oneshot deal like all of these other things you listed. And he is easily reintroduced (remember, I'm not dismissing the possibility of a side-series, so it won't delay whatever conclusion you think Capcom is moving towards, even though they really aren't.) Vergil coming back would hardly cause any problems and would open up the series just enough to bring on the inevitable end of the story. Again, Vergil is not a non sequitur like Nero, very little plothole-filling would need to be done with him.

Making him a playable character in the bloody palace, sure go for it thats a great idea but don't reintroduce him into the plot. He is not so important that the whole series should be put on hold and reorganized to try and think of a random reason to bring him back or explain how he managed to survive.

I'm less concerned about his playability than his significance to the plot. They are going to have to refer to him to explain Nero anyway, so he is going to be included in the story whether anyone likes it or not. But I don't know where you are getting this idea that they have to put the series on hold for Vergil. I can explain why he came back and how he survived in a single sentence; Vergil's return wuld be simpler to orchestrate than explaining just about any single aspect of Nero's character.

And Vergil is more important than Nero, and Mundus, and DMC2, and DMC4, and all of these so-called important things that DMC is dealing with now. DMC1 and DMC3 were the most significant games, storywise, for Dante and the series in general, and DMC2 and 4 are basically fluff, what Dante does on his days off. It seems as if you're placing your hope for a conclusion in the useless fluff rather than where the true potential lies, which I think we both know is folly.

His return can be done well, hypothetically, and this thread is assuming that this would be the case if he ever came back. Meaning, it wouldn't hold up the series (I don't know what end the series is moving to aside from more money from undiscerning saps). I'm leaning more towards a side-series a la Megaman Zero, but he return could be done well in the main series as well.

 

[Edsabre]

Re: Why should Vergil NOT come back?

^It won't because you've just stated thats why he can't come back, not why he shouldn't.
(Don't worry, We've all been told it)

If you keep bringing him back for no good reason then he'll become very cheapened as a character.

Like I said...

Why he CAN'T come back: Dead. Dead. Dead.

Why he SHOULDN'T come back: Bringing a character back from the dead takes all meaning away from the death itself, thus, cheapening the character overall. Can you really feel any emotion when a character dies if you know he's just gonna come right back in the next sequel anyways?

It's all just my opinion of course.

 

[Vergil'sBitch]

Re: Why should Vergil NOT come back?

^And i totally agree with you.
It's like every week when kenny got killed in south park, and they brought him back. it just turned out kinda boring cause, you knew he was gonna get killed, and you know gonna come back next episode.

If they do that with Vergil, its gonna get very tedious.

 

[Meg]

Re: Why should Vergil NOT come back?

^And i totally agree with you.
It's like every week when kenny got killed in south park, and they brought him back. it just turned out kinda boring cause, you knew he was gonna get killed, and you know gonna come back next episode.

If they do that with Vergil, its gonna get very tedious.

They don't kill him every episode. Just 99% of them. :lol:

 

[Vergil'sBitch]

Re: Why should Vergil NOT come back?

well, you know what i mean

 

[moseslmpg]

Re: Why should Vergil NOT come back?

Like I said...

Why he CAN'T come back: Dead. Dead. Dead.

Why he SHOULDN'T come back: Bringing a character back from the dead takes all meaning away from the death itself, thus, cheapening the character overall. Can you really feel any emotion when a character dies if you know he's just gonna come right back in the next sequel anyways?

It's all just my opinion of course.

The possibility of him coming back is irrelevant to the topic of this thread. But I'll humor you.

Being dead is a poor reason for not being able to come back. Characters come back from far more definite and well-known deaths all the time in fiction. Example: Superman, Sigma from MMX, Michael Myers, etc.

In response to your second point: I agree that resurrecting someone needlessly cheapens the meaning of death, but this is totally irrelevant as well. First of all, Nelo is dead Vergil. Vergil died right after DMC3, according to Kobayashi, so death already means nothing in the DMC series apparently. Secondly, coming back from a sufficiently ambiguous "death" once does not equate with dying and returning in every game. And thirdly, no one felt any emotion when Nero died because no one even knew who he was.

OK, I entertained your opinion. If you have a necessary, rational argument for why Vergil should never ever return, at all, then post it.

VB: Who ever said they were going to kill Vergil every game and bring him back? Vergil has only "died" once apparently, and it was ambiguous enough for it to be disputed. For all these people complaining about "cheapenig Death": VERGIL IS DEAD IN DMC1, he is basically a robot zombie, according to Kobayashi, so take it up with him, not me.

Someone come up wit something new at least.

 

[Vergil'sBitch]

Re: Why should Vergil NOT come back?

You are kinda insulting us, you do know that...

Perhaps Vergil could come back as a flesh eating zombie :lol: (that was sarcasm)

 

[moseslmpg]

Re: Why should Vergil NOT come back?

I'm just getting tired of responding to the same off-topic arguments. I'm the one insulted that people don't read the first post and don't even try to adhere to it.

I don't know if I'd like Vergil back as a zombie. I fell that his zombie days were over with Nelo. It would be nice for DMC to venture out into the territory of other Capcom games, maybe some vampires too, to spice things up.

 

[Meg]

Re: Why should Vergil NOT come back?

Well maybe state some reasons as to how/why/when Vergil could come back. Its a lot easier (for me at least) to come up with ideas when I'm going off of something instead of just pulling stuff out of thin air.