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Why should Vergil NOT come back? Read FIRST post before responding

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UZUDAE

Well-known Member
I don't believe that is within the guidelines. The only reason people think DMC is about Dante is that, until now, DMC has been about Dante. It is circular reasoning and invalid. If Vergil had been the main character of DMC1, then DMC would be Vergil. Really, the only plot element that is necessary for DMC is Sparda, although the twins are both an integral part of the existing story.

Alright...I'll hold my tongue on that one, and I won't say what I was going to say

I'd argue that you can't prove he SHOULD be in it though.

I'm not mocking you at all, its a legitimate offer, give me a factual reason why he SHOULD be in it? No antagonism or subtext attached, I wanna hear your thoughts
 

darkslayer13

Enma Katana no Kami
UZUDAE;290836 said:
Alright...I'll hold my tongue on that one, and I won't say what I was going to say

I'd argue that you can't prove he SHOULD be in it though.

I'm not mocking you at all, its a legitimate offer, give me a factual reason why he SHOULD be in it? No antagonism or subtext attached, I wanna hear your thoughts

i know the question is not directed at me but i feel like answering anyway:
Vergil is a Son of Sparda ( the most important person in the story of Devil May Cry) and the older brother of Dante ( the main charicter). he is not just some random idiot who tried to get demonic power ( arius, arkam, sanctus). he is as much a part of the storyline of Devil May Cry as Dante. Dead the only role Vergil can play is as Nero's dad ( not a good use of Vergil or Nero).. Alive he can do alot to improve the story. the relationship between Dante and Vergil is an important part of the story of Devil May Cry. too important to just throw away. think about it this way imagine what Devil May Cry 3's story would have been like without Vergil. it would have been just about a madman trying to get demonic power. Devil May Cry2 was about a madman trying to get demonic power. Devil May Cry 4 was about a madman trying to get demonic power. ( with Nero thrown in to confuse things and Kyrie added in for a little romance). so what do you think will happen next if Vergil dosen't show up ( well,they could bring Mundus back but that would be almost as bad).
 

moseslmpg

Well-known Member
UZUDAE;290836 said:
Alright...I'll hold my tongue on that one, and I won't say what I was going to say

I'd argue that you can't prove he SHOULD be in it though.

I'm not mocking you at all, its a legitimate offer, give me a factual reason why he SHOULD be in it? No antagonism or subtext attached, I wanna hear your thoughts
This isn't about proof, this is about logical arguments that don't stem from a dislike of the character or a lack of imagination on the part of the naysayer. Seeing as most arguments against Vergil's return tend to be based upon these considerations, I was curious as to whether anyone could offer a reason not founded upon such blatant "opinion."

Even if I couldn't prove why he should return, that wouldn't mean that he shouldn't, which is something I'm sure you realize in asking for my "proof." That said, there are actually a few logical arguments for his reinsertion into the series. DS13 touched on a few of them above, but I'll try to list them more explicitly.

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1. His Absence - This is what most arguments for his inclusion in the series are based upon, it forms the foundation of the rest of them, if you will. The reason that he should be included is that his character has been unceremoniously excluded from the series, indeed, to the detriment of the series. Consider that Dante has received 5 games, an anime, a reboot game coming up, two novels, a manga, and a bunch of statues. Vergil as himself has been featured in 1 game, another game as Nelo, another game solely as the "elephant in the room," 1 manga, sort of 1 novel, and he has 1 statue. Overexposed, he is not. His absence has gotten so ridiculous that it spawned the creation of a superfluous copycat character for no apparent reason other than to exclude him. When Capcom is creating unnecessary characters out of the blue, when they have a perfectly good character waiting in the background, you know something is amiss. (I blame Kobayashi, personally).

2. His significance - Regardless of how one feels about Vergil, it is undeniable that he has been a major catalyst for the series in terms of narrative, character development, and gameplay, be it in the form of Nelo Angelo, himself, or the plot device thing he was in DMC4. It is apparent that Dante and his story have begun to stagnate without Vergil to spur them on. Vergil is Dante's foil and Dante's Shadow, and while they may not need to oppose each other for all eternity in a Zoroastrian dualism, they cannot truly thrive without one another, and they are more interesting when together. This is because, contrary to popular belief, Dante is not DMC, Sparda is DMC, and the twins represent his legacy split equally in two. Vergil is just as much a son of Sparda as Dante is, and without him, Sparda cannot be fully understood and his character cannot be fully explored.

3. His potential - And contrariwise, Dante's lack of it without him. One problem with the series as I see it, is that Dante has reached the end of his rope. He has sved the day multiple times, he has got the girl thrice, and he has literally defeated the Devil and claimed his father's power. He may have even gotten the T-shirt, who knows. While I'm not saying that Dante should be retired, I am saying that he doesn't need to be in the spotlight for too long, because there's no mystery left and his adventures are becoming more banal and inconsequential (See: Anime, DMC4, DMC2?). Vergil, on the other hand, is pretty much overflowing with potential in terms of character development, story possibilities, abilities, associate characters, weapons, abilities, etc.

Let's look at some facts about Vergil:
-There is an entire portion of Vergil's life between DMC3 and DMC1 unaccounted for, where he spent about 10 years in Hell as Mundus' servant. Story potential, check. New demonic associate characters, and deeper insight into the culture of Hell, double check.
-There is also a portion of his life after he is defeated by Dante in DMC1 that is unaccounted for. Story potential 2, check.
-"" "" during DMC2 and the time leading up to it. Massive story potential 3, check.
-He was made Mundus' bitch in DMC3 and apparently freed from his control in DMC1 after years of serving in Hell, all because of his lust for power. Character development? Oh my! What? Vergil's descent into darkness could foreshadow a more complex storyline where Dante literally struggles with his inner demons, thus explaining some of the peculiarities of DMC2? You don't say...
-He has only used 3 real weapons in the course of the series and the phantom swords. Just imagine if he could get his hands on some other weapons and other styles. Instant weapon and abilities potential: Just add Vergil.

I've just listed facts here, not even story ideas themselves, although I can prove 3 off the top of my head if necessary. But not only does Vergil have potential as a character, he has they key to unlocking the potential of the series itself, of shedding light on areas of the series that are rarely seen. He would of necessity be a darker character than Dante and so could give us access to darker aspects of the DMC universe.

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Those are the three best cases for his return IMO, presented without the actual ideas themselves, which I think are a lot more convincing. Vergil's return need not happen chronologically, i.e. he could get a prequel or a side series. One thing is for sure though, and it is that there is no good reason to keep him from the series, except perhaps to spare him the indignity of being connected with tripe like (sort of) DMC2, DMC4 and (maybe) DINO.
 

Esura

Your breasts are illegal!!
moseslmpg;290969 said:
DMC1 unaccounted for, where he spent about 10 years in Hell

Um, what?

I understood you, even though I completely disagree with you, but I understood what you was saying until that line. There has never truly been a defined timeline other than one game taking an undisclosed amount of time before or after another game in the series so far, unless they specified it via novels or something.

Can you explain this?
 

moseslmpg

Well-known Member
You completely disagree with established facts? I wasn't aware we were allowed to still do that...

Anyway, the series timeline is actually alright as far as DMC3 and DMC1 go. DMC3 takes place when Dante is 19, the manga takes place a year before. IIRC, it is implied by Arkham that Eva was killed 10 years earlier, or it may be mentioned in the profile sections. In DMC1, Dante is supposedly 29 or early thirties, and Trish says he lost his mother and brother 20 years ago, meaning an additional 10 years past the manga must have passed when Eva died. About 10 years have passed since DMC3 and DMC1, during which time Vergil has been in Hell as a servant of Mundus.

DMC4 supposedly takes place a few years after DMC1 or the anime, but that's when things get fuzzy. DMC2 is the only game where a totally unknown amount of time has passed before the events of the game happen.

All of this can be gleaned from the games, manga, and commentary by the producers and directors.
 

Esura

Your breasts are illegal!!
moseslmpg;291056 said:
You completely disagree with established facts? I wasn't aware we were allowed to still do that...

Anyway, the series timeline is actually alright as far as DMC3 and DMC1 go. DMC3 takes place when Dante is 19, the manga takes place a year before. IIRC, it is implied by Arkham that Eva was killed 10 years earlier, or it may be mentioned in the profile sections. In DMC1, Dante is supposedly 29 or early thirties, and Trish says he lost his mother and brother 20 years ago, meaning an additional 10 years past the manga must have passed when Eva died. About 10 years have passed since DMC3 and DMC1, during which time Vergil has been in Hell as a servant of Mundus.

DMC4 supposedly takes place a few years after DMC1 or the anime, but that's when things get fuzzy. DMC2 is the only game where a totally unknown amount of time has passed before the events of the game happen.

All of this can be gleaned from the games, manga, and commentary by the producers and directors.

See thats the problem. Why couldn't they incorporate these tidbits of info into the game instead. Someone need to link some interviews or something cause this is the first time I've ever heard of specific years being mentioned.

And yes I can still disagree with you. Got a problem with that?
 

moseslmpg

Well-known Member
If you are disagreeing with my arguments, that's fine, but I don't think you can disagree with facts.

What parts do you disagree with btw? And what are your counter-arguments (i.e. arguments that specifically oppose mine, not general arguments for excluding Vergil)? I find it hard to believe that any reasonable person could disagree with the foundations of the argument, since Vergil has been absent, he is significant, and he does have lots of potential pretty much as established fact. You may not find those good enough reasons for allowing him to come back, but then I would hold that you are simply prey to irrational personal bias or lack of imagination.

If the reasons above don't necessitate or at least heavily favor Vergil's return, then Dante definitely shouldn't be returning since he has none of those.
 

Esura

Your breasts are illegal!!
moseslmpg;291159 said:
If you are disagreeing with my arguments, that's fine, but I don't think you can disagree with facts.

What parts do you disagree with btw? And what are your counter-arguments?
I was disagreeing with your argument, although some proof for some of the supposed facts would be nice.

Well, mostly just the idea of Vergil coming back period, which seems to be your whole point. I cant really add anything else what other non supporters of Vergil havent said.
 

moseslmpg

Well-known Member
Then you don't disagree with my argument, you just don't want Vergil back, for some spurious reason I'm sure.

What do you want proof for? Most of these things are self evident to anyone who has played the series from the beginning, but I can look for some links and whatnot if you want them.

To start us off, here are a few translations from the ToF book.
 

Esura

Your breasts are illegal!!
moseslmpg;291182 said:
Then you don't disagree with my argument, you just don't want Vergil back, for some spurious reason I'm sure.

What do you want proof for? Most of these things are self evident to anyone who has played the series from the beginning, but I can look for some links and whatnot if you want them.

To start us off, here are a few translations from the ToF book.
Well, I've played all of the DMC games and they never mentioned any time whatsoever except that 2000 years ago Sparda defeated Mundus and stuff.
 

moseslmpg

Well-known Member
Sorry, I just mean to people who have followed the series outside just the games, these things tend to be plain.

Also, to be clear, my argument is not that Vergil should come back, rather my argument is in support of Vergil coming back. There is a slight difference between the two. You an agree with my argument and still not want Vergil back (although I can't fathom for what reason), while you can also disagree with the argument and want Vergil back (highly unlikely, I'd say).

However, if you just don't Vergil back "just because," there's no need to note your opposition, since it is irrelevant to the thread.
 

Esura

Your breasts are illegal!!
moseslmpg;291191 said:
Sorry, I just mean to people who have followed the series outside just the games, these things tend to be plain.

Also, to be clear, my argument is not that Vergil should come back, rather my argument is in support of Vergil coming back. There is a slight difference between the two. You an agree with my argument and still not want Vergil back (although I can't fathom for what reason), while you can also disagree with the argument and want Vergil back (highly unlikely, I'd say).

However, if you just don't Vergil back "just because," there's no need to note your opposition, since it is irrelevant to the thread.

Well, you cant blame me for only following the games, thats what DMC is first and foremost.

Actually, I wasn't going to note my opposition because you stated what responses you want in the OP, answers to things I cant give you. I just slipped it in when I wanted to question you about the 10 years in between DMC3 and 1, the only reason I posted here. I don't want Vergil back, flawed opinion or not and I cant state it in a way that would please your narrow criteria.
 

Chrysander

Well-known Member
Vergil's relationship and connection with Dante were great, and I miss that kind of thing between the villain the hero. It would be great to explore that more. But beyond that, just having Vergil as an unlockable bonus character, surplus to any story, would be good enough for me, like when they put Hunk in RE4. So then even if you've got Vergil as your avatar, yet arguing that he should not return, you don't have to worry because you don't have to pick your favourite character, you could still pick Dante who you've decided not to use as an avatar. Yeah I am confused too!

I agree with moseslmpg especially regarding Vergil's time in Hell. I mean you could literally make a Vergil game out of it, and just have Dante as an unlockable bonus in that if it was felt necessary.
 

Dominus

Well-known Member
Chrysander;291257 said:
Vergil's relationship and connection with Dante were great, and I miss that kind of thing between the villain the hero. It would be great to explore that more.

This I can agree with. Hell people who have played God Hand know that Azel was more 1-D than Vergil, but boy did fights with him feel like some of the best boss fights I've ever played in an action game. Dante vs Vergil boss fights were much better than most of the boss fights in DMC, and the tension between the two built up to a enjoyable finale.

Also with regards to DMC canon, I'm pretty sure if the DMC3 game was made first, Vergil's storyline prob wouldn't lead to him "dying" in DMC1..
 

Chrysander

Well-known Member
Dominus;291260 said:
Also with regards to DMC canon, I'm pretty sure if the DMC3 game was made first, Vergil's storyline prob wouldn't lead to him "dying" in DMC1..

Exactly. There are ways round that anyway, I don't think anybody would care, especially if he's just a bonus character. I mean, having Angelo in DMC3 made no sense, but it was cool.
 

Esura

Your breasts are illegal!!
Chrysander;291257 said:
Vergil's relationship and connection with Dante were great, and I miss that kind of thing between the villain the hero. It would be great to explore that more. But beyond that, just having Vergil as an unlockable bonus character, surplus to any story, would be good enough for me, like when they put Hunk in RE4. So then even if you've got Vergil as your avatar, yet arguing that he should not return, you don't have to worry because you don't have to pick your favourite character, you could still pick Dante who you've decided not to use as an avatar. Yeah I am confused too!

I agree with moseslmpg especially regarding Vergil's time in Hell. I mean you could literally make a Vergil game out of it, and just have Dante as an unlockable bonus in that if it was felt necessary.

I would actually prefer for Capcom to explore a new theme other than Dante going against his brother. Its been done, and I highly doubt Capcom actually even considered Vergil until his fanbase gotten vocal. I would rather for Capcom to either add more to the Nero / Dante foil after DmC or actually make Dante learn more about his father, Sparda and throw a few twists in there for good measure. Imagine, for some unexplainable reason, Dante had to fight Sparda in order to truly master his demon powers. Theres actually plenty of interesting plotlines they could add to freshen DMC that dont have to include Vergil. Like a plotline explaining how the hell Dante is going to escape from hell in DMC2.

I would rather Capcom not rehash Vergil again to appease fanboy's and girl's wet dreams (no offense to anyone). He was a great character, that really don't need to be explored anymore until Sparda and Nero is explored more. Capcom practically threw Nero into a new game with a half assed explanation and no closure. Vergil had his closure essentially. Dante freed him from his suffering of being the Nelo Angelo.
 

Chrysander

Well-known Member
I feel like Nero was a waste of time. You are correct that his story didn't go anywhere, but I think it's an assumption that it actually had anywhere to go - I don't think the writers had any big plan, he is just a badly written character full stop.

I think it's possible to have a game with Vergil in it, without it being the focus. I agree that I wouldn't like to see just the same thing over and over again. But you could do something new with Dante, and new characters, yet still have Vergil there in the story in some way - but more importantly, as a playable character. That's what the game is about after all, not the cut scenes.
 

Esura

Your breasts are illegal!!
Chrysander;291280 said:
I think it's possible to have a game with Vergil in it, without it being the focus. I agree that I wouldn't like to see just the same thing over and over again. But you could do something new with Dante, and new characters, yet still have Vergil there in the story in some way - but more importantly, as a playable character. That's what the game is about after all, not the cut scenes.
Honestly, before Vergil, they need to let me play with Trish and Lady, Dante's Angels before any other character :lol:

Also, Vergil is already in the story. He is Dante's twin, the reason Dante awakened and the reason he became who he is. Vergil was apart of the story more than you realize. Because of Vergil, Dante got to awaken his devil powers, and because of Vergil as Nelo Angelo, Dante was able to access his father's powers. Hell, the developers of DMC4 planned on Vergil being Nero's father before scrapping it, meaning that they havent forgotten about him. However I highly doubt Vergil having any sort of future impact in future DMC games without coming off highly cliche. However, Vergil being in the game like The Legendary Dark Knight isnt a bad idea...although I still think Trish and Lady should take precedence over him in who gets to be played.

And I really, really don't want to play another interquel, prequel game, which is why I was half ****ed with DmC as is. I need a game to continue forth after DMC2, while filling in gaps of the storyline along the way.
 

Chrysander

Well-known Member
Definitely want to play as Lady - but again, having Lady in the game doesn't prevent Vergil being playable. I don't remember cries of dismay when they put Hunk in RE4 even though it made no sense whatsoever, it was just good times to see him back. If Capcom writers are so bad that they can only come up with cliched nonsense, then sure, they don't need to write a story for Vergil, just have him as an unlock.
 

Darth Angelo

Tuck-yet-chi-say-denie trieve trick-dis-nie
Esura;291277 said:
I would actually prefer for Capcom to explore a new theme other than Dante going against his brother. Its been done, and I highly doubt Capcom actually even considered Vergil until his fanbase gotten vocal. I would rather for Capcom to either add more to the Nero / Dante foil after DmC or actually make Dante learn more about his father, Sparda and throw a few twists in there for good measure. Imagine, for some unexplainable reason, Dante had to fight Sparda in order to truly master his demon powers. Theres actually plenty of interesting plotlines they could add to freshen DMC that dont have to include Vergil. Like a plotline explaining how the hell Dante is going to escape from hell in DMC2.

I would rather Capcom not rehash Vergil again to appease fanboy's and girl's wet dreams (no offense to anyone). He was a great character, that really don't need to be explored anymore until Sparda and Nero is explored more. Capcom practically threw Nero into a new game with a half assed explanation and no closure. Vergil had his closure essentially. Dante freed him from his suffering of being the Nelo Angelo.

I agree 100% You just pretty much wrapped up my exact thoughts on the Vergil situation.
 
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