Re: Why should Vergil NOT come back?
Angel;266853 said:
Why did Capcom include anyone else, if they were unnecessary? I don't understand what you mean by DMC essentially dealing with Sparda and Vergil and Dante being unnecessary.
By this I simply mean that the only feature necessary for a game to be considered a DMC game is some connection to Sparda. Dante, Vergil, Nero, and whatever other characters they come up with are incidental, secondary. This is keeping in mind specifically the oft quoted idea that "Dante is DMC." DMC4 proves that this isn't the case, for people who can't work it out in their minds (because Dante was not the main character).
When I say unnecessary, I don't mean anything disparaging. And some of the most important details in games/fiction/life are important precisely because they are unnecessary.
meg127;266855 said:
@moses- I think the confusion on how to answer your question is coming from how you worded it. You say you want to know why Vergil shouldn't come back, not why he can't, yes?. Here's the issue with that. Can and can't mean if something is possible or not. Should and shouldn't is more opinionated. So you want to know why Vergil shouldn't come back, but you don't want opinions? That's a nice contradiction right there.
I think the confusion stems from people's misunderstanding of what "should" means, and maybe don't understand what it means to follow the guidelines.
Should, as opposed to can, deals with a normative or prescriptive issue, rather than one of possibility. It isn't really opinion related at all. Normative statements are usually based on facts or some logic. For example: People should brush their teeth or else they will have tooth decay/gum disease. Note how this is not an opinion, it is not just something I think, this is medical science or at least based on it. Another example: People should eat or else they will die. Again, science, not me.
There is no contradiction. When I say I don't want opinions, I just mean like, no "I don't like Vergil," "Vergil is a lame character," "it is impossible to bring him back," etc. It is totally fine if that is what you think, but that is not what I'm looking for in this thread.
Chloe_Ryder;266907 said:
Well, here's a question for you Moses.
What difference would it make if Vergil did come back or not?
It would help actualize the great potential that the DMC series has by opening up new, perhaps more esoteric avenues through which to explore the universe. And of course, it would give Dante a foil and catalyze his own character growth, as well as possibly Nero.
He had maybe 10 minutes screen time in DMC3, even less in DMC1.
All the more reason for him to have more spotlight time. 
Okay, look from a fictional perspective, you need a strong and solid secondary character. Secondary characters build your protagonist, helps the character to develop.
Vergil seems to fit that bill perfectly to me, although I disagree with the idea that Vergil is necessarily a secondary character.
In DMC3, Vergil was cast as the antagonist (Okay I'm sorry I said villain before, bad choice of words, alright?) and Lady as the secondary character, because it was because of her that Dante finally got direction in life and learnt how to prioritize what is important and what isn't. She wouldn't have been able to guide his character to that conclusion if it wasn't for Vergil. Dante's character didn't actually develop and improve until he had that last fight with Vergil. Basically, if it wasn't for Vergil in DMC3, Dante would still be a c0cky yo-momma spewing idiot in DMC4, because he wouldn't have had any growth. In that sense, Vergil served his purpose in the game.
I agree.
In DMC1 again, Trish was cast as the secondary character, but Nelo played a good plot device. The whole game revolved around Dante being faced with losing his 'brother' and 'mother' all over again, and being too late to protect/save them. It was basically history repeating itself, it wouldn't have worked if Nelo/Vergil wasn't included in there, and from Dante's character I've gathered he's got a soft heart, especially where family is concerned, which is what helped tune him down in DMC4.
I think it would have worked fine it Nelo hadn't been included, because Dante only found out at the end and it didn't affect his actions at all. He was going to go kill Mundus anyway, and finding out who Nelo was was just a consolation prize.
The whole series revolves around Sparda. We're first introduced into the game via the legend of Sparda, followed immediately by Dante, the Son of Sparda, who simply put is the walking-talking reminder of Sparda himself. DMC wouldn't be DMC if you took Dante or Sparda out of the equation, because even if Nero lovers won't agree with me on this, Dante HAS made DMC.
Alas, your first error. Sparda is DMC, necessarily, essentially. Dante is DMC only in an accidental and arbitrary sense. There's nothing about Dante that makes him essential to DMC. The only reason people think he defines DMC is because, so far, he has defined DMC; it is a tautology. To illustrate: If Vergil had been the main character of DMC1, 2, and 3, then people would be saying "Vergil is DMC," I would be explaining how they were wrong, and this thread would be named "Why should Dante NOT come back?" I hope you can appreciate the distinction, even if you don't agree.
DMC would be DMC without Dante or Vergil or Nero. This is why we can have DMC fanfics, for instance, that don't include any of these characters. What is more important than the characters is the style, and the themes, and the story.
So, where is Vergil in all this? Nowhere. Why? He's not needed anymore. He served his purpose, told his story, there is no need for him and therefore he shouldn't be brought back. It smacks of lack of imagination - which, come on, I'm sure SOME of you thought Capcom was lacking a bit of imagination where it concerned Vergil's character. Generally identical twins in games and anime give the impression of laziness. Too much hassle to create a new character, so let's just make them identical twins and cut our work down, take the easy route. But anyway, I meant to say, it smacks of lack of imagination from the writers' side if they do bring Vergil back.
Ah, second fault. To assume that making them twins is lazy is to overgeneralize and assume that all cliches are meaningless/lazy in themselves. Cliches exists precisely because they are signs, shortcuts, if you will, to archetypes. Hence you have the half breed, the larger-than-life father, the savior of humanity, the power of humanity/soul/love, etc. If you are going to accuse Vergil of being a cliche, then he is in good company with almost everything in the series. A moot point and an unfounded one (read the Trinity of Fates book or anything by Jung).
And, btw, they did create a new character with Vergil in DMC3. Just because they used the same face model doesn't mean they made a carbon copy of Dante, and to even suggest that is repugnant.
So...here. I'll be able to give you a better answer if you can answer me this, Moses. What more could Vergil really contribute to the series?
For starters, Vergil could make Hell a legitimate locale to explore in the series. Given that there is a huge chunk of time where he was stuck in Hell, at least 10 years. Even if he was a puppet that whole time, he would have a subconscious idea of what it was like to live in Hell. By having him explore Hell in a more lucid state, we could have the first chance in the series to see the culture, technology, areas, etc. of Hell, as well as see the various varieties of demons in their natural habitat, and learn of the history of Hell.
Outside of Hell, assuming Vergil is in the human world, he would open the possibility of exploring the more esoteric or occult aspect of the DMC universe, one which is hardly ever implied in the series. Think of the ambience of DMC1 and that's what I mean. I'm thinking other demon hybrids, human cultists, demonic possession and exorcisms, demonic plots insinuating themselves under the regular jobs that Dante works (like the initiative for instigating a worldwide DT using modified human babies to bypass the barrier), and basically any job too "dark" for Dante to know about or dirty his hands with.
Beyond that, in terms of gameplay, you have the opportunity to go more "magick" based with Vergil, consider his adeptness in energy manipulation. The combat could also be more technical or precise, given his style, with weapons that have different stances and such-like.
In terms of story, finally, of course there is the foil to Dante's human-centric character and a welcome exteriorization of Dante's Shadow. Vergil would provide the perfect counterpoint to Dante in a storyline in which Dante succumbed to his dark side, precisely because Vergil knows how it feels to be a slave to his instincts as Nelo, and also because he had intimate knowledge of the effect of demonic power on a person. Also, given Vergil's quest to claim his birthright as Sparda's son and replace his father , his travels could easily take him across the world and Hell to many places and people that Sparda visited or trained with, etc. thus giving us a chance to learn much more about Sparda's legacy directly. (Dante has Sparda's soul, but Vergil seeks to emulate him explicitly, and could fashion himself as the new LDK, nameless wandering swordsman, etc.) And ultimately, there could be a real final showdown, either before or after DMC2, where Dante and Vergil decide to claim their roles as protector of the human world and scion to the throne of Hell, respectively, in preparation for a final cataclysm (the Apocalypse I talk so much about). A Vergil series could run parallel to Dante's series, and its more esoteric nature would allow it to include more things about the mythology of the series.
Anyway, those are just a few things, and I'm not considering prequels or Nero even. I've given them in general form here, but I can tell you specifics through VM or PM if you would like.
Darth Angelo;266911 said:
If they have the balls for it I am hoping they do infact give both the twins a rest in the future. In a way you kind of answered your own question there.
I hope they do venture out beyond the twins, but as long as people think "Dante is DMC" I'm sure they will continue to beat him like the dead horse he has become.
Dante obtains the full power of their father, defeats Vergil once and for all and goes on to avenge their mother by fulfilling his destiny and defeating Mundus just like Sparda did? Mundus may not be dead but Dante is the one. (I can't think of any other way of putting that)
Firstly, Dante does not have the full power of his father, at all. Secondly, he didn't necessarily defeat Vergil once and for all either. But I will concede that he has fulfilled his destiny and thus he has stagnated, and is in need of a catalyst to drive him forward. He did defeat Mundus, but I was under the impression that there was more to Sparda than defeating Mundus and being the protector of humanity.
Like I said above the fight between them is over now and Dante has everything that was passed down from Sparda and Eva. Anything that Vergil can bring to the series now will be so superficial it's not even worth considering. Just as Dante doesn't really serve a purpose anymore Vergil's character depends of his determination and clarity of where his life is going. He is not the kind of character who mills around killing time by hacking up demons for a laugh. He needs to be driven and focused in his life, thats what makes him such an awe inspiring character. And he is only driven by one thing, that which Dante has already won fair and square.
Who said they had to fight? And who said he would be fighting demons for a laugh? That's Dante's job. Those aren't the only circumstances Vergil has to come back in. I think you are dead on about what makes Vergil so awesome, but missed the target completely by thinking anything he could add would be superficial. And anyway, nothing is more powerful than such a character that has been broken and is now aimless and hollow inside, because they must undertake the quest to regain their old self. I hope you can appreciate that even though I can't explain it.
I can appreciate your perspective, but it applies just as equally to Dante as to Vergil, so as far as I'm concerned it isn't an argument against only Vergil coming back. It is more of an argument against useless fluff in DMC, which I definitely agree with. I just disagree with exclusively lumping Vergil in as useless fluff.
