Why should Vergil NOT come back? Read FIRST post before responding
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BlueDevil
Super Penguin Number 2
Re: Why should Vergil NOT come back?
^at Darkslayer: Alright...the can't and shouldn't thing is just a tad dumb...I can simply edit the can't into saying shouldn't, and the post is perfectly relevant now.
You want me to change it? Here.
Vergil SHOULDN'T come back because he is now a part of Nero.
^at Darkslayer: Alright...the can't and shouldn't thing is just a tad dumb...I can simply edit the can't into saying shouldn't, and the post is perfectly relevant now.
You want me to change it? Here.
Vergil SHOULDN'T come back because he is now a part of Nero.
DreadnoughtDT
God of Hyperdeath
Re: Why should Vergil NOT come back?
I'm sure Moses is gonna say we have a lack of imagination or some such, but yeah, I give up too. Why say what I truly believe if I'm not allowed to actually say it?
I'm sure Moses is gonna say we have a lack of imagination or some such, but yeah, I give up too. Why say what I truly believe if I'm not allowed to actually say it?
)King of Hell
Must Die
Re: Why should Vergil NOT come back?
for me, I say he can come back AS LONG AS its not a lame come back, like "I'm here for my sword, yamato", if that's the case, it'd be the lamest moment in DMC history, lamer than Dante walking around flipping a coin.
if everything else is perfect, I'd welcome Vergil with open arms, but considering where the series might be going, I don't have enough faith in capcom.
EDIT: DMC4 would have sold squat if Dante wasn't featured in the trailers.
for me, I say he can come back AS LONG AS its not a lame come back, like "I'm here for my sword, yamato", if that's the case, it'd be the lamest moment in DMC history, lamer than Dante walking around flipping a coin.
if everything else is perfect, I'd welcome Vergil with open arms, but considering where the series might be going, I don't have enough faith in capcom.
EDIT: DMC4 would have sold squat if Dante wasn't featured in the trailers.
moseslmpg
Well-known Member
Re: Why should Vergil NOT come back?
Everyone, bear with me. I didn't expect this many replies.
And again, you didn't answer the question I asked. (And by your logic, there should never be any other DMC games since it was originally intended that only one should be made...) I'm not interested in why you don't want Vergil back, as I already know that. I'm interested in a rational argument for Vergil not coming back. I'm tying to see if there are really any reasons or if it just the collective voice of Vergil anti-fanboys. So far it seems to be the latter.
Angel: When I said that Dante "embodies and exemplifies" I meant most, if not all, of the complaints against Vergil can be even more validly lodged against Dante, and yet fans still tolerate his continued presence in the series. So this means, "Dante's story has been told," "Dante's character will be/is ruined," "Dante is just the son of Sparda," "I don't like Dante," "Dante was never meant to be in other games," and so on. It is pretty hypocritical IMO and it is a litmus test for deciding whether complaints against Vergil are valid or biased by blind favoritism.
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I will say, out of all the arguments presented here, probably the least unconvincing is the idea that since Vergil was never meant to be a character, he shouldn't come back. Of course that makes zero sense since things in fiction change all the time, and it is a pretty sad measure of the replies so far if that is the best.
Someone please give me some reasons within the guidelines so this thread can actually get started.
Everyone, bear with me. I didn't expect this many replies.
I am not kidding at all. Anything outside of the guidelines I posted is not a rational argument. I have no problem with that being your reason, but it is irrelevant as far as the question is concerned. I specifically asked for an answer within the guidelines. If you had read the first post, as I indicated in CAPITAL RED LETTERS you would have read that I am not interested in why Vergil can't come back, but why he shouldn't.meg127;266638 said:Are you kidding?
Well Mr. Moses, here's the thing. We have told you our reasons to why Vergil shouldn't come back. Its not our fault that they aren't good enough for you. You want reasons to why it isn't possible for him to come back yet saying "he's dead" isn't good enough. In my mind that's tautological and contradictory. What better logical reason to why someone can't come back than the person died. Soooo
Yeah, exactly. Basically I want a convincing, or at least, rational "best" argument for why Vergil should not come back. I set up the guidelines as a way to make the thread more efficient and so it wouldn't explode into a monster thread or arguing, but I guess people don't care about that since they seem to ignore them.darkslayer13;266646 said:
You can't just answer my question with another question. But to answer your question, as far as I'm concerned Vergil doesn't need a reason to come back any more than Dante does, or any more than the next game needs a reason to have swords rather than laser guns. Vergil coming back is the default position for me.Darth Angelo;266651 said:
And again, you didn't answer the question I asked. (And by your logic, there should never be any other DMC games since it was originally intended that only one should be made...) I'm not interested in why you don't want Vergil back, as I already know that. I'm interested in a rational argument for Vergil not coming back. I'm tying to see if there are really any reasons or if it just the collective voice of Vergil anti-fanboys. So far it seems to be the latter.
Angel: When I said that Dante "embodies and exemplifies" I meant most, if not all, of the complaints against Vergil can be even more validly lodged against Dante, and yet fans still tolerate his continued presence in the series. So this means, "Dante's story has been told," "Dante's character will be/is ruined," "Dante is just the son of Sparda," "I don't like Dante," "Dante was never meant to be in other games," and so on. It is pretty hypocritical IMO and it is a litmus test for deciding whether complaints against Vergil are valid or biased by blind favoritism.
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I will say, out of all the arguments presented here, probably the least unconvincing is the idea that since Vergil was never meant to be a character, he shouldn't come back. Of course that makes zero sense since things in fiction change all the time, and it is a pretty sad measure of the replies so far if that is the best.
Someone please give me some reasons within the guidelines so this thread can actually get started.
Angel
Is not rat, is hamster
Re: Why should Vergil NOT come back?
If you think we're too stupid for you then try laymans terms?
and if things change in fiction all the time then what is the point of making this thread in the first place? because nothing anyone says will satisfy if this is the case.
Then you might have to give an example of what you mean because just telling everyone they're wrong isn't helping the conversation much. If we don't understand what it is you are after, how can we answer you?moseslmpg;266695 said:
If you think we're too stupid for you then try laymans terms?
and if things change in fiction all the time then what is the point of making this thread in the first place? because nothing anyone says will satisfy if this is the case.
moseslmpg
Well-known Member
Re: Why should Vergil NOT come back?
What I want is outlined in the first post. I want the best, rational argument for why Vergil shouldn't come back to the series, ever. I think that is a pretty simple request. If no one can offer it, that's fine, but I'd prefer that they at least tried to stay within the guidelines. So far the only person who seems to have gotten the idea of the thread is DS13, I think.
As for the whole fiction thing, my point is just that what a creator originally intended can't be something that binds the work of fiction forevermore. Kamiya never intended to make DMC2, 3, or 4, and yet they exist. If one acknowledges the existence of anything after DMC1, then they can't in all honesty use that argument.
The point of the thread is a normative one, I suppose, that's why I emphasize the shouldn't over the can't. I'm really just interested in why so many people think Vergil should never come back to the series under any circumstances, because it seems like an outrageous position to me. I'm exploring it to see if it has any merit. So I want to see the best arguments for that position.
What I want is outlined in the first post. I want the best, rational argument for why Vergil shouldn't come back to the series, ever. I think that is a pretty simple request. If no one can offer it, that's fine, but I'd prefer that they at least tried to stay within the guidelines. So far the only person who seems to have gotten the idea of the thread is DS13, I think.
As for the whole fiction thing, my point is just that what a creator originally intended can't be something that binds the work of fiction forevermore. Kamiya never intended to make DMC2, 3, or 4, and yet they exist. If one acknowledges the existence of anything after DMC1, then they can't in all honesty use that argument.
The point of the thread is a normative one, I suppose, that's why I emphasize the shouldn't over the can't. I'm really just interested in why so many people think Vergil should never come back to the series under any circumstances, because it seems like an outrageous position to me. I'm exploring it to see if it has any merit. So I want to see the best arguments for that position.
Angel
Is not rat, is hamster
Re: Why should Vergil NOT come back?
But how do you decide what's the "best" argument? Surely it's subject to your personal criteria? Therefore no matter what we say, and there is crap-all wrong with my two pence worth as well as everyone else's, you simply wont be satisfied.
This is a common feature in your threads - you ask us something, we reply and you go on about how we're not answering you correctly. Can you concede that we are trying our best? People come here to discuss things and enjoy it - not to be beaten down when they offer up their opinions and theories. I don't know what your bigger picture is here, but it's almost like you're researching for something and we're not giving you the data you want.
But how do you decide what's the "best" argument? Surely it's subject to your personal criteria? Therefore no matter what we say, and there is crap-all wrong with my two pence worth as well as everyone else's, you simply wont be satisfied.
This is a common feature in your threads - you ask us something, we reply and you go on about how we're not answering you correctly. Can you concede that we are trying our best? People come here to discuss things and enjoy it - not to be beaten down when they offer up their opinions and theories. I don't know what your bigger picture is here, but it's almost like you're researching for something and we're not giving you the data you want.
Dante's Stalker
"Outrun this!"
Re: Why should Vergil NOT come back?
1. I thought that was just me hearing things! XD
2. I thought Yamato was blown into two when Vergil tried to slice through the shot Lady aimed at him and Dante, you know when they were fighting just before Jester pitched up and pawned them all? I'm pretty sure I saw Yamato broken after that scene...
3. I thought Yamato was Vergil's Devil Arm >_< I'm confusing myself, I think.
Okies!
Here's Vergil's character/story in a somewhat summarised form:
- Vergil has a vast knowledge of the demon realm and how things work there, and although Dante probably has the same intellect, Vergil is the one who experienced the truly demonic first hand (hence his DT being activated and knowing how to do all the stuff to raise the tower in DMC3...etc etc)
- Even though Vergil's intentions when he started on his journey might have been influenced with human notions eg. the desire to reap revenge for his mother's death, as he gains more power, he falls victim to the corruption of the demonic and, seeing as his father is Sparda, he feels he should be strong enough and capable of following in his father's footsteps
- That is nothing new to the world of DMC since all the bad guys who become corrupt and demonic in their ways strive for the exact same thing as Vergil did.
- Vergil is defeated by Dante and charges Mundus at the end of DMC3. He either loses in battle and is killed by Mundus, or Mundus sees potential in him as Sparda's son and offers him what it is he's been after all the time eg. follow in Sparda's footsteps aka become Mundus's right hand, and so comes Nelo Angelo.
- Nelo Angelo/Vergil serves Mundus, attempts to kill Dante, still being half-human is his downfall as he's conflicted with memories (...actually, thinking about that, no wonder Vergil wasn't that in tune with his human emotions...tsk, poor guy, and he still lost!) and Dante kills Nelo Angelo.
What else could he possibly contribute now that his story has been told? *beats down the million answers bubbling up in my DMC-stamped mind* He served as the antagonist in DMC3 and DMC1, failed at his endeavours both times, so what is there really left for him in the DMC universe?
So, reasons why Vergil SHOULD NOT come back would be:
- he'd be a broken sob. He failed his 'master' and at the same time, he failed to uphold his father's legacy. This would not sit well with Vergil's haughty attitude as a Son of Sparda.
- his role in DMC has always been to be the antagonist. Bringing him back again as the antagonist wouldn't work and would smack of fanservice because it undermines the character's intellect. I'm pretty sure he's learnt his lesson and realized that the venture he'd set out upon is unachievable. Therefore, with no desire to gain Sparda's power anymore, what would there really be left for Vergil to motivate him? Saving humanity, fighting demons alongside Dante? PHU-LEASE! OOC much?
- bringing Vergil back as a protagonist wouldn't work either. He's the perfect and possibly the most awesome villain to ever enter the DMC universe. Turning him into a good guy won't cut it. If he was going to have a change of heart, he would have had it in DMC3 when they had the jackpot moment going. That was it. It didn't happen. Vergil didn't think twice about changing his ways then, which means he won't change his ways ever.
There. Solid enough reason, yes?
BlueDevil;266662 said:
1. I thought that was just me hearing things! XD
2. I thought Yamato was blown into two when Vergil tried to slice through the shot Lady aimed at him and Dante, you know when they were fighting just before Jester pitched up and pawned them all? I'm pretty sure I saw Yamato broken after that scene...
3. I thought Yamato was Vergil's Devil Arm >_< I'm confusing myself, I think.
Okies!
Here's Vergil's character/story in a somewhat summarised form:
- Vergil has a vast knowledge of the demon realm and how things work there, and although Dante probably has the same intellect, Vergil is the one who experienced the truly demonic first hand (hence his DT being activated and knowing how to do all the stuff to raise the tower in DMC3...etc etc)
- Even though Vergil's intentions when he started on his journey might have been influenced with human notions eg. the desire to reap revenge for his mother's death, as he gains more power, he falls victim to the corruption of the demonic and, seeing as his father is Sparda, he feels he should be strong enough and capable of following in his father's footsteps
- That is nothing new to the world of DMC since all the bad guys who become corrupt and demonic in their ways strive for the exact same thing as Vergil did.
- Vergil is defeated by Dante and charges Mundus at the end of DMC3. He either loses in battle and is killed by Mundus, or Mundus sees potential in him as Sparda's son and offers him what it is he's been after all the time eg. follow in Sparda's footsteps aka become Mundus's right hand, and so comes Nelo Angelo.
- Nelo Angelo/Vergil serves Mundus, attempts to kill Dante, still being half-human is his downfall as he's conflicted with memories (...actually, thinking about that, no wonder Vergil wasn't that in tune with his human emotions...tsk, poor guy, and he still lost!) and Dante kills Nelo Angelo.
What else could he possibly contribute now that his story has been told? *beats down the million answers bubbling up in my DMC-stamped mind* He served as the antagonist in DMC3 and DMC1, failed at his endeavours both times, so what is there really left for him in the DMC universe?
So, reasons why Vergil SHOULD NOT come back would be:
- he'd be a broken sob. He failed his 'master' and at the same time, he failed to uphold his father's legacy. This would not sit well with Vergil's haughty attitude as a Son of Sparda.
- his role in DMC has always been to be the antagonist. Bringing him back again as the antagonist wouldn't work and would smack of fanservice because it undermines the character's intellect. I'm pretty sure he's learnt his lesson and realized that the venture he'd set out upon is unachievable. Therefore, with no desire to gain Sparda's power anymore, what would there really be left for Vergil to motivate him? Saving humanity, fighting demons alongside Dante? PHU-LEASE! OOC much?
- bringing Vergil back as a protagonist wouldn't work either. He's the perfect and possibly the most awesome villain to ever enter the DMC universe. Turning him into a good guy won't cut it. If he was going to have a change of heart, he would have had it in DMC3 when they had the jackpot moment going. That was it. It didn't happen. Vergil didn't think twice about changing his ways then, which means he won't change his ways ever.
There. Solid enough reason, yes?
moseslmpg
Well-known Member
Re: Why should Vergil NOT come back?
I'm sure some of you are trying your best, but I'm not grading people based on effort. I'll admit that some of my other threads and questions were unintentionally opaque (I was overestimating the commonness of common sense, alas), but I actually outlined what I'm looking for in the first post, and many people apparently did not read it.
If someone can't come up with a good argument that's fine, I don't hold anything against them. But I'm really just interested in seeing if anyone can come up with a reason within the guidelines. I haven't said anyone was wrong here, I don't think so, but I would like an answer to the question. I feel like I'm asking what color the sky is, and people are answering me by telling me they like ice cream. I just don't know how to make my question clearer.
Chloe: Hmm, I'm on the fence about whether your answers fall under the guidelines, because they do reference story elements that could easily be changed. But I do appreciate your post and the thought that went into it and its concise format. Although TBH, the first reason you offered is to me, a great reason why he should come back. DMC needs to get a little pathos back. As for the other reasons, you bring up good points. However, I believe that Vergil could come back still as ambiguously antagonistic to Dante in the sense of "good cop/bad cop" rather than "good cop/ bad villain." Vergil could be the Punisher or Batman of the series, to Dante's Superman, if you will. And if there is any concern about him edging in on Dante's spotlight, a side-series with him as the protagonist would be fine. Like you said, he does have a vast knowledge of the demon world, presumably, and his stories could focus more on the seedy underworld and Underworld, and more on demonic lore, the occult, etc.
Anyway, good post.
I'd take pretty much any argument within the guidelines I posted as a valid argument. I'm not setting people up for Sisyphean tasks. By "best" I mean the most convincing, which is not entirely subjective.Angel;266706 said:
I'm sure some of you are trying your best, but I'm not grading people based on effort. I'll admit that some of my other threads and questions were unintentionally opaque (I was overestimating the commonness of common sense, alas), but I actually outlined what I'm looking for in the first post, and many people apparently did not read it.
If someone can't come up with a good argument that's fine, I don't hold anything against them. But I'm really just interested in seeing if anyone can come up with a reason within the guidelines. I haven't said anyone was wrong here, I don't think so, but I would like an answer to the question. I feel like I'm asking what color the sky is, and people are answering me by telling me they like ice cream. I just don't know how to make my question clearer.
Chloe: Hmm, I'm on the fence about whether your answers fall under the guidelines, because they do reference story elements that could easily be changed. But I do appreciate your post and the thought that went into it and its concise format. Although TBH, the first reason you offered is to me, a great reason why he should come back. DMC needs to get a little pathos back. As for the other reasons, you bring up good points. However, I believe that Vergil could come back still as ambiguously antagonistic to Dante in the sense of "good cop/bad cop" rather than "good cop/ bad villain." Vergil could be the Punisher or Batman of the series, to Dante's Superman, if you will. And if there is any concern about him edging in on Dante's spotlight, a side-series with him as the protagonist would be fine. Like you said, he does have a vast knowledge of the demon world, presumably, and his stories could focus more on the seedy underworld and Underworld, and more on demonic lore, the occult, etc.
Anyway, good post.
Dante's Stalker
"Outrun this!"
Re: Why should Vergil NOT come back?
^ What about my answer? I thought it fit in the criteria.
^ What about my answer? I thought it fit in the criteria.
darkslayer13
Enma Katana no Kami
Re: Why should Vergil NOT come back?
Vergil did have a change of heart right after getting beat by Dante. he actually prevented Dante from saving him so that Dante wouldn't get trapped in hell. he let Dante walk away with Force Edge and half the amulet. he gave up on gaining Sparda's power and attempted to defeat Mundus with his own power. the reason for the conflicted emotions he had in DMC1 was that he did not want to fight Dante again. if Vergil were to return he would not be Dante's enemy. he probably wouldn't be the nicest person around but he is done with being a villain ( unless he gets brainwashed again).
so Vergil as a protagonist works fine. he would make a great Anti-Hero.
Chloe_Ryder;266707 said:
Vergil did have a change of heart right after getting beat by Dante. he actually prevented Dante from saving him so that Dante wouldn't get trapped in hell. he let Dante walk away with Force Edge and half the amulet. he gave up on gaining Sparda's power and attempted to defeat Mundus with his own power. the reason for the conflicted emotions he had in DMC1 was that he did not want to fight Dante again. if Vergil were to return he would not be Dante's enemy. he probably wouldn't be the nicest person around but he is done with being a villain ( unless he gets brainwashed again).
so Vergil as a protagonist works fine. he would make a great Anti-Hero.
moseslmpg
Well-known Member
Re: Why should Vergil NOT come back?
DS: Yeah you get what I'm saying. Thing don't have to be black and white with the twins; there are more nuanced solutions to bringing Vergil back, which, alas, I think are more appropriate for the "How to bring Vergil back thread."
Chloe: I think it does, but I think that they can be resolved as DS and I have pointed out, and they don't necessarily preclude Vergil from ever coming back, ever. But like I said, it was a good post. Do you really believe Vergil should never come back or were you just playing devil's advocate?
DS: Yeah you get what I'm saying. Thing don't have to be black and white with the twins; there are more nuanced solutions to bringing Vergil back, which, alas, I think are more appropriate for the "How to bring Vergil back thread."
Chloe: I think it does, but I think that they can be resolved as DS and I have pointed out, and they don't necessarily preclude Vergil from ever coming back, ever. But like I said, it was a good post. Do you really believe Vergil should never come back or were you just playing devil's advocate?
Dante's Stalker
"Outrun this!"
Re: Why should Vergil NOT come back?
Vergil preventing Dante from saving him wasn't a change of heart. He was where he wanted to go, and Dante being there wasn't in line with his plans, hence why he urged Dante to get out while the portal to the human world was still open. If he'd had a change of heart, he would have given up everything and went back to the human world with Dante. Instead he was still set on fighting Mundus - less Sparda's power - but he hadn't changed his mind about what he wanted to do.
And yeah...he would make a good anti-hero...but I dunno if I'm allowed to agree with you or not because the thread is about why Vergil shouldn't come back, not what good roles he could fill if he did come back.
@Moses - couldn't you tell? I'm holding back on a barrage of reasons about why Vergil SHOULD come back I'm all for it!
darkslayer13;266712 said:
Vergil preventing Dante from saving him wasn't a change of heart. He was where he wanted to go, and Dante being there wasn't in line with his plans, hence why he urged Dante to get out while the portal to the human world was still open. If he'd had a change of heart, he would have given up everything and went back to the human world with Dante. Instead he was still set on fighting Mundus - less Sparda's power - but he hadn't changed his mind about what he wanted to do.
And yeah...he would make a good anti-hero...but I dunno if I'm allowed to agree with you or not because the thread is about why Vergil shouldn't come back, not what good roles he could fill if he did come back.
@Moses - couldn't you tell? I'm holding back on a barrage of reasons about why Vergil SHOULD come back
I'm all for it!
moseslmpg
Well-known Member
Re: Why should Vergil NOT come back?
But I don't want to get off topic, that's all.
And I did think you were pro-Vergil, which makes your argument against even more praiseworthy. I couldn't even think of a reason that I would accept for him not coming back, so that's pretty good that you could.
Yeah, you're allowed to agree, of courseChloe_Ryder;266717 said:Vergil preventing Dante from saving him wasn't a change of heart. He was where he wanted to go, and Dante being there wasn't in line with his plans, hence why he urged Dante to get out while the portal to the human world was still open. If he'd had a change of heart, he would have given up everything and went back to the human world with Dante. Instead he was still set on fighting Mundus - less Sparda's power - but he hadn't changed his mind about what he wanted to do.
I don't think he planned to fall into Hell broken and beaten without the FE and the other amulet. And Vergil didn't even know Mundus was going to be there, as he was surprised by him. I think it is safe to say he had a change of heart, even if he didn't totally follow through. He does have damaged pride to nurse.
And yeah...he would make a good anti-hero...but I dunno if I'm allowed to agree with you or not because the thread is about why Vergil shouldn't come back, not what good roles he could fill if he did come back.
@Moses - couldn't you tell? I'm holding back on a barrage of reasons about why Vergil SHOULD come back
But I don't want to get off topic, that's all.And I did think you were pro-Vergil, which makes your argument against even more praiseworthy. I couldn't even think of a reason that I would accept for him not coming back, so that's pretty good that you could.
Darth Angelo
Tuck-yet-chi-say-denie trieve trick-dis-nie
Re: Why should Vergil NOT come back?
I think that only happened because DMC3 was set before DMC1 and so they had to make it fit with the timeline. If DMC3 was working with a clean slate Dante probably would have won everything off of him. And Vergil may have even died right there and then too it really should have been an all or nothing fight but that simply couldn't happen.
They had to be very careful in that scene, they had to make it so that somehow Dante walks away with FE and only half of the Amulet and also that Vergil is done for but not dead.
Similar to how at the end of Revenge of the Sith they had to make sure Obi Wan picks up Anakins lightsabre and believes Anakin is done for when he actually isn't just to make it fit with the first movie.
Needless to say they did a good job without making it look stupid and obvious.
darkslayer13;266712 said:
I think that only happened because DMC3 was set before DMC1 and so they had to make it fit with the timeline. If DMC3 was working with a clean slate Dante probably would have won everything off of him. And Vergil may have even died right there and then too it really should have been an all or nothing fight but that simply couldn't happen.
They had to be very careful in that scene, they had to make it so that somehow Dante walks away with FE and only half of the Amulet and also that Vergil is done for but not dead.
Similar to how at the end of Revenge of the Sith they had to make sure Obi Wan picks up Anakins lightsabre and believes Anakin is done for when he actually isn't just to make it fit with the first movie.
Needless to say they did a good job without making it look stupid and obvious.
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