Was The Reboot Really Necessary?

[DarkSlayerZero]

Not to mention that every honest and commendable attempt to write an actual story for the franchise, whether as the novelizations by Shinya Goikeda or the DMC3 Manga series, can't be considered canon because of it contradicting some mediocre plot element of the main games. That's an obstacle that both the upcoming movie adaption and WildStorm comic series will have to face in their conception. DMC is so wrapped up in convoluted plot foil that it's almost impossible to anything with it.

I read the manga recently and it's stupidly inconsistent with the very prequel it's based on 3.

Dante could devil trigger and rebellion had been unlocked

 

[Sunaka Marién]

It doesn't change that if DmC ever acquired by NT it will be made by Tameem, who don't give a damn about franchise in the first place.

I know DragonMaster already told you, but this whole "Tameem doesn't care about DMC!" thing just really gets on my nerves, because he actually does care about the franchise. He said it in several inteviews that he's a fan of the franchise, he played all of the games and DMC1 is even one of his favorite games. He didn't only enjoy the gameplay but also the style of the game( (on the topic of DMC1)"I thought that's the kinda game we should be making, like, that's what everything I love about action cinema and music and everything is put into that game.") and Dante himself it seems (like, he said he was was kinda disappointed with DMC4 because he wanted to play as Dante, not as Nero, so I'd say he seems to like Dante.).

What I meant is, Taneem doesn't really care for, well, the style of DMC...particularly Dante himself. He's criticized the game's flashy, animu, nonsensical whimsy, and claims that a lot of elements that made Dante cool in the original game aren't particularly subtle for a character in a grounded or serious narrative. It's not so much the gameplay he dislikes, so much as the "Dante-ness" of the original series.

Excuse me, but that doesn't seem to be correct either; he never said that he actually disliked Dante or the style of DMC, as far as I remember, quite the contrary. When he 'crticized' it, it wasn't really criticism against those things in and of themselves; he was just trying to explain that they are not suitable for their version of DmC, which, as you said, is more grounded and serious - and I guess he's right in that aspect.

 

[EllDawn]

Yes, I do write in spare time and I really don't see the need to be so condescending towards me.

We really don't know how old Dante and Vergil both are individually at the time of Devil May Cry 3. Speculation only goes so far. They could easily be well into their mid to late 30s at that time for all we know. They are half human and age far slower than you and I. There's one problem that can be easily remedied.

I wasn't trying to be condescending. I was going to say that, since you do some writing, you know how impossible it is to fill in every plot hole and answer every question. Even the greatest writer can't do that. And DMC has some major plot holes.

As for saying that Dante and Vergil are in their late 30s, they'd have to make the timeline more clear. Something they've never done with DMC. I've heard two ages for Dante in DMC3, 19 and 1,900. Choosing the latter would still be confusing because of how long Dante and Vergil would have looked so young, only to suddenly age when the first game was pretty soon after that (as is strongly suggested in the game itself). That also leaves so many years for when Nero could have been conceived and he was officially said to be in his teens. But then there's Vergil's disgust with how weak he thinks humans are. I don't think that's something that would go away for one night when he kept saying different variations of it every five minutes in the game and mangas.

DMC is basically a giant mess. Even having different teams for each game, there could have been consistency. They would have had to look at previous games and built from that, but that's obviously not what happened. It wasn't a priority and this has been the result. Each game is a contradiction in some of the greatest points in the plot.

I never thought DMC series would have such disturbing implications.

I really wish I could have liked your post more than once.

 

[Innsmouth]

Excuse me, but that doesn't seem to be correct either; he never said that he actually disliked Dante or the style of DMC, as far as I remember, quite the contrary. When he 'crticized' it, it wasn't really criticism against those things in and of themselves; he was just trying to explain that they are not suitable for their version of DmC, which, as you said, is more grounded and serious - and I guess he's right in that aspect.

Haven't read anything positive from him about original DMC, so i can't say for sure. I just remember his "laughed out of the bar" quote and his claim that original DMC is uncool .

 

[Railazel]

They felt it was a lost cause, and if they were gonna get people into it it's better to start over. Plus, what I said before...

Look at how p!ssed people were just at a new universe in the franchise, one that operated under different mechanics. You think people would be more receptive if those changes occurred in the classic series? DMC2 made them afraid of that. And DMC2 was objectively better in a few ways over DMC1, which isn't seen as the pinnacle DMC experience.

Actually, we wanted all the gameplay changes made in DmC, but we were mad at the game as a whole so we didn't appreciate the gameplay. It was the same thing with DMC 2. People didn't enjoy the game so they didn't enjoy the gameplay. Almost all of appreciation of the gameplay was made after people realized that the Style system was DMC 2's gameplay pushed to an extreme.

That being said, the gameplay changes made in DmC would have been well- received in the classic franchise because most of it was what we wanted. Higher focus on aerial combat, a tweaking of Nero's devil arm grab, even getting rid of the lock- on button were all changes fans hoped for during DMC'S hiatus and then turned around and started bashing them when DmC came around.

 

[LoneRangerNinjutsu]

what closure would you want? Dante was a fully realized character. so were lady and trish. nero had his little character arc and since everybody and their mother exempt DMC2 from memory, i don't think that those characters will ever be brought to the table again. but even in DMC2, everybody had an arc where they became whole. DMC was never a property that relied on story. if anything, the best story was plot diven. giving us characters that aren't so much as interesting as the plot device that gets the ball rolling. DmC, on the other hand, does the exact opposite. it's more so the characters driving the story than an overall plot that brings them together. and the issue with giving DMC another sequel is that (story wise) it doesn't need one. the ending of each DMC is wrapped up with a nice little bow. DmC on the other hand, the characters aren't fully developed. they have much to delve into. the world is now altered and we were left on a cliff hanger. now, you can say that DMC4 left on a cliff hanger, but it really isn't. i don't feel like we need to be spoonfed the fact that nero is vergil's son. there was more evidence pointing to it than r. kelly's trial. DmC, an angry, and psychotic vergil becomes the new king of hell. dante becomes the self appointed protector of humanity. and the veil that limbo was hiding behind was torn down. its like superman. if donner made the first one, then abandoned the project just for us to revisit the old superman stories, the story would only be half way finished. if anything, DmC, needs closure. not DMC

I've said on several occsassions that I want a DmC2. It's a game that ended in such a way that it begs for a sequel. But in an ideal world, we the fans could get DMC5 and DmC2.

Maybe "closure" was the wrong word to use. The only thing that needs closure is Nero's ancestry.
It's just that I want to see those characters again. I feel like the third game was when the series finally got it's identity in check, and the fourth game was the first real continuation of that. I want to see the characters I love return and do new things, face new threats. It's a selfish desire, I know, but I do want to interact with those characters in new and exciting ways I've never seen or felt before.

I understood and somewhat agreed with you about everything you said, except for this.

For one, the novelizations and manga attempt dig out traits in Dante that contradict with his one-note attitude in the actual games. Any development, defeat, endurance or emotion he shows is essentially rendered as a massive plot-hole, because he's always 100% confident and almost always immune to losing in the games.

As for comparing the lore and chronology to Doctor Who or Star Wars...well, I'm not too sure about that. Devil May Cry itself is one of Capcom's youngest franchises. It hasn't even had a ten-year lifespan, and enough plot inconsistencies have happened from the game being handed to multiple teams and directors. Almost nothing in the DMC canon has been set in stone, and keeps on being rewritten for the sake of creating a convenient excuse for the plot in each game to happen. Everything else in the lore is either implied or never explained, so in that regard alone, it can barely be compared to most video game franchises, let alone something like Star Wars or Star Trek.

Good point. All those things I've listed have a larger fanbase than DMC, and have definitely been around longer, so it's not at all a valid comparison. The lore of DMC is very ambiguous, and does need to be set definitively before a new entry.

I wasn't trying to be condescending. I was going to say that, since you do some writing, you know how impossible it is to fill in every plot hole and answer every question. Even the greatest writer can't do that. And DMC has some major plot holes.

DMC is basically a giant mess. Even having different teams for each game, there could have been consistency. They would have had to look at previous games and built from that, but that's obviously not what happened. It wasn't a priority and this has been the result. Each game is a contradiction in some of the greatest points in the plot.

Well, everything has plot holes. You're right when you say that you can't fix all of them, especially when the lore of DMC is so vague. But Devil May Cry was never concerned with plot. The sole purpose of each entry was to replicate an action movie experience. It never tried to be awe inspiring or deep and it laughed at it's own absurdity. It's a series that makes no sense and it relishes in it.

My main problem with DmC was that it almost took itself too seriously, and I was beginning not to have fun with it. Whenever it let loose, it was enjoyable, but whenever it attempted storytelling, it felt a bit pretentious and at times mean spirited. Compare that to Devil May Cry 1, 3, and 4, which is choreographed in such a way to make the player feel a whole range of emotions despite how nonsensically that entry fit into the DMC chronology. I'm not asking for a fix to every plot hole in the series. I'm asking for a fun Devil May Cry game.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

i watched a few interviews of tameem i think he liked some of the game play of Devil may cry but i don't think he ever liked the story i'm under the impression he doesn't like Japaneses story telling and that's why DmC is so different

he didn't want to make a Devil May Cry game
he made a game that had to be called Devil May Cry
i like DmC but IMO tameem didn't get what made Dante a good character

Your impression has little effect on the words he said, talking about how he liked DMC.

He didn't like Bayonetta because if was extremely Japanese in its style, even more bonkers than DMC was. Hell, it's not even that he thinks Bayonetta is bad, he acknowledges how good it is, he just doesn't dig it. I feel the same way :/

Ninja Theory was asked to make a DMC game by Capcom, and when they made something that looked very much like DMC5, that's when Capcom wanted the change. Tameem was never against making a DMC game.

And honestly, Dante isn't a good character. He's a shallow jumble of 80s and 90s action hero cliches that serve as a power fantasy for the player, and that's why everyone finds him charming. Much like Vergil's "honor", much of Dante's finer points are mostly exaggerated headcanon.

He's a shallow and fun character, and unsurprisingly when you set out to make characters deeper for a stronger narrative like DmC did, you lose some of that...

 

[TWOxACROSS]

They could easily be well into their mid to late 30s at that time for all we know. They are half human and age far slower than you and I. There's one problem that can be easily remedied.

This is baseless conjecture. We could assume their supernatural traits make them age slower, but you see Lady in DMC3 was in her late teens right alongside Dante (and Vergil), and in DMC4 we see that both Dante and Lady have aged at the same rate.

 

[LoneRangerNinjutsu]

This is baseless conjecture. We could assume their supernatural traits make them age slower, but you Lady in DMC3 was in her late teens right alongside Dante (and Vergil), and in DMC4 we see that both Dante and Lady have aged at the same rate.

Again, I can't explain that. Allow me though to retort what I said previously.

"Well, everything has plot holes. You're right when you say that you can't fix all of them, especially when the lore of DMC is so vague. But Devil May Cry was never concerned with plot. The sole purpose of each entry was to replicate an action movie experience. It never tried to be awe inspiring or deep and it laughed at it's own absurdity. It's a series that makes no sense and it relishes in it."

 

[TWOxACROSS]

Now, see, that's patently false. Everything doesn't have plotholes. There are plenty of stories without them. No story is perfect, obviously, but that doesn't mean that everything has plotholes.

It's no small secret that DMC's narrative is a mess from all the hands it's passed through, but that doesn't stop the complaints from people utterly disappointed that they didn't try harder to keep things consistent. People naturally yearn for good stories, and despite the games being super fun and all, the lack of a cohesive story saddens people. One of the greatest arguments against DmC is the supposed "they need to finish the story" or "they need to explain things" phrases. Whether it's just more of seeing Dante do the same sh!t every game, getting some sort of closure, or actually wanting the series to plug all the holes and a grand finale, people do care about the story, what little coherence there is. Just as much as they care about the shallow characters.

However, here's the thing - it's not up to you to explain plotholes, and it's not like what you say will have any weight to it. It's not the fan's responsibility to fulfill fan's demands for cohesive story, it's the people making the games. The story may not be the point, but that doesn't make it exempt from criticism.

 

[Chancey289]

Why does this keep happening? DMC's plot is a thing that exist in this forum that is almost constantly discussed yet when coming to admit how crappy and faulty it was it's always backed with the whole "DMC never was about plot" as if you're trying to lift some metaphorical weight off of the criticism that can be rightfully given towards the original series.

No. DMC has always given a crap about telling a plot even if they did suck at it. If it wasn't then why does it go through all the trouble to make one? They could just toss out the most straightforward stuff but no, they literally try to add more elements to the entire continuity and just fail at it. Simple as that.

So just stop it. Stop with the BS excuses. Stop with the BS justifications to its shortcomings and just tell it how it is. Never stops you when it comes to DmC no matter how stupid it is so it's only fair right?

 

[LoneRangerNinjutsu]

So if rebooting the series was totally necessary, then why make it so drastically different? Why not at least adhere to the core themes and tones of the original series in the remake without necessarily retelling the same story that has already been told? Hey, maybe DmC2 will be the sort of thing I'm looking for considering that Dante and Vergil at the end of that game were sort of how we saw them at the beginning of Devil May Cry 3. Maybe DmC Dante is making a slow transition into good ol' Uncle Dante in a more consistent, linear, and steady rate. Which would be awesome!

 

[LoneRangerNinjutsu]

I think I'm done posting for awhile. Thanks for talking with me, guys! It was genuinely enlightening!

 

[WolfOD64]

Why does this keep happening? DMC's plot is a thing that exist in this forum that is almost constantly discussed yet when coming to admit how crappy and faulty it was it's always backed with the whole "DMC never was about plot" as if you're trying to lift some metaphorical weight off of the criticism that can be rightfully given towards the original series.

No. DMC has always given a crap about telling a plot even if they did suck at it. If it wasn't then why does it go through all the trouble to make one? They could just toss out the most straightforward stuff but no, they literally try to add more elements to the entire continuity and just fail at it. Simple as that.

So just stop it. Stop with the BS excuses. Stop with the BS justifications to its shortcomings and just tell it how it is. Never stops you when it comes to DmC no matter how stupid it is so it's only fair right?

If you think THAT'S a BS excuse, wait till you hear the deluded explanation that "the corny writing is meant to be satirical, so-bad-it's-good humor. It's not SUPPOSED to be serious."
Yeah, I guess that explains the dramatic confronations in the rain, and Vergil and Dante preaching their motivations with a dynamic choir howling in the background.

 

[WolfOD64]

And honestly, Dante isn't a good character. He's a shallow jumble of 80s and 90s action hero cliches that serve as a power fantasy for the player, and that's why everyone finds him charming. Much like Vergil's "honor", much of Dante's finer points are mostly exaggerated headcanon.

I don't know what shocks me more...the fact that another human being on this forum can share my exact, identical thoughts, or the fact that someone can utter them without being impaled by some fanbot's verbal Rebellion.

 

[Chancey289]

So if rebooting the series was totally necessary, then why make it so drastically different? Why not at least adhere to the core themes and tones of the original series in the remake without necessarily retelling the same story that has already been told? Hey, maybe DmC2 will be the sort of thing I'm looking for considering that Dante and Vergil at the end of that game were sort of how we saw them at the beginning of Devil May Cry 3. Maybe DmC Dante is making a slow transition into good ol' Uncle Dante in a more consistent, linear, and steady rate. Which would be awesome!

It really wasn't so drastically different. What is Devil May Cry about? A cocky one line spouting protagonist who slashes and shoots demons all while being obsessed with style and over the top.

DmC checks off what fundamentally makes Devil May Cry Devil May Cry and is also different because that was the point.

 

[LoneRangerNinjutsu]

It really wasn't so drastically different. What is Devil May Cry about? A cocky one line spouting protagonist who slashes and shoots demons all while being obsessed with style and over the top.

DmC checks off what fundamentally makes Devil May Cry Devil May Cry and is also different because that was the point.

Not exactly. Devil May Cry also talked a lot about being human. This is something I hope the next game features. I think it's a missed opportunity not making Dante half demon and half human for this sole purpose, but it can be worked around. Dante in the old series always considered himself mostly human and rejoiced in that fact which is one of the reasons why he chose his profession in protecting humanity, and while new Dante makes a few remarks about trying to be human, we never dive as deep into as I'd like. Again, I'm sure a DmC2 if done right could further this plot point considering that Dante at the end of DmC is having a sort of identity crisis.

 

[Jak]

So if rebooting the series was totally necessary, then why make it so drastically different? Why not at least adhere to the core themes and tones of the original series in the remake without necessarily retelling the same story that has already been told? Hey, maybe DmC2 will be the sort of thing I'm looking for considering that Dante and Vergil at the end of that game were sort of how we saw them at the beginning of Devil May Cry 3. Maybe DmC Dante is making a slow transition into good ol' Uncle Dante in a more consistent, linear, and steady rate. Which would be awesome!

a reboot by its very definition is to take a property and core essentials, boil them down to the basics, and build them from the ground up. thats what DmC is. a demon hunter who is half demon with a psychotic twin brother who wants to take over the world. beyond that, i can't think of any reboots that stick with the same tone or even themes that the original have. but its ok. i'm pretty sure DmC is dead anyway. if anything comes of it, then i guess DMC5 is on it's way

 

[LoneRangerNinjutsu]

a reboot by its very definition is to take a property and core essentials, boil them down to the basics, and build them from the ground up. thats what DmC is. a demon hunter who is half demon with a psychotic twin brother who wants to take over the world. beyond that, i can't think of any reboots that stick with the same tone or even themes that the original have. but its ok. i'm pretty sure DmC is dead anyway. if anything comes of it, then i guess DMC5 is on it's way

Yeah, Tomb Raider and Thief were so drastically different from their sources, they were almost unrecognizable. I think DmC resembled a Devil May Cry more than people give it credit for.

 

[Innsmouth]

How Tomb Raider was that different from original? Yes it was new setting (every TR had new setting), Yes Lara had new look (which she deed many times before), yes mechanics were twitched and made a new and it has stronger emphasis on shooting and not on platforming. (than again TR done it before.). So how is that different? It's still very recognizable as TR.