Was The Reboot Really Necessary?

[TWOxACROSS]

Taneem Antionades didn't care about DMC. Most people jumped onboard NT's dev team to work on the reboot because they were fans of DMC. ****, the guy who wrote and contributed to Vergil's Downfall was a fan of the original Vergil from DMC3. Why is it that because ONE person on the Dev Team expressed dislike for the Original Dante and Universe that the ENTIRE Team is labeled as "DMC Haters"? Seriously.

Tameem liked Devil May Cry, I dunno what you're talking about...

 

[LoneRangerNinjutsu]

Tameem liked Devil May Cry, I dunno what you're talking about...

I was under the impression that most of Ninja Theory did too. It's hard to work on something for years with no passion. Say what you want about the final product, but the game wasn't made without effort or care. Far from it.

 

[Railazel]

Because they wanted change. If they were going to try a bunch of new stuff, they might as well have made the new product starkly different from the original so it could stand out and actually allowed for new and different ideas without strict guidelines preventing creative freedom.

But why not make just another original game instead of rebooting DMC?

 

[TWOxACROSS]

But why not make just another original game instead of rebooting DMC?

They felt it was a lost cause, and if they were gonna get more people into it it's better to start over. Plus, what I said before...

Look at how p!ssed people were just at a new universe in the franchise, one that operated under different mechanics. You think people would be more receptive if those changes occurred in the classic series? DMC2 made them afraid of that. And DMC2 was objectively better in a few ways over DMC1, which isn't seen as the pinnacle DMC experience.

 

[EllDawn]

Devil May Cry is convoluted, yes, but not entirely filled to the brim with inconsistencies as you say. If someone would compile a list of all things that fail explanation and defy the rules set in the original Devil May Cry series from the first game to the fourth, I'd gladly look through them and see if there is a small term way of fixing or explaining each of them within one gaming experience that doesn't hinder that game's specific plot or gameplay. Just a list of every plot hole you can think of, if you could. I'd appreciate it, because I think my bias renders me incapable of doing so.

I'm curious, but do you write? People who do write would have a better idea of just how hard that would be. For one thing, there's no clear timeline. In 3 it's been assumed that Dante and Vergil are 19. Maybe 20. That's 8-9 years between 3 and 1. Four is thought to take place a few years after the first game and Vergil is supposed to be the father of Nero who is in his late teens at the least. If Nero was 17 and Dante was 30, that would have made Vergil 12 or 13 when he was conceived. I know boys in their early teens are going through hormonal changes, but that also means that the mother was a pedophile and I doubt even a prostitute would really want that label. Especially if she was put in jail and everyone else found out. And that's just one problem the series has.

 

[Director Bison]

Tameem liked Devil May Cry, I dunno what you're talking about...

i watched a few interviews of tameem i think he liked some of the game play of Devil may cry but i don't think he ever liked the story i'm under the impression he doesn't like Japaneses story telling and that's why DmC is so different

he didn't want to make a Devil May Cry game
he made a game that had to be called Devil May Cry
i like DmC but IMO tameem didn't get what made Dante a good character

 

[LoneRangerNinjutsu]

I'm curious, but do you write? People who do write would have a better idea of just how hard that would be. For one thing, there's no clear timeline. In 3 it's been assumed that Dante and Vergil are 19. Maybe 20. That's 8-9 years between 3 and 1. Four is thought to take place a few years after the first game and Vergil is supposed to be the father of Nero who is in his late teens at the least. If Nero was 17 and Dante was 30, that would have made Vergil 12 or 13 when he was conceived. I know boys in their early teens are going through hormonal changes, but that also means that the mother was a pedophile and I doubt even a prostitute would really want that label. Especially if she was put in jail and everyone else found out. And that's just one problem the series has.

Yes, I do write in spare time and I really don't see the need to be so condescending towards me.

We really don't know how old Dante and Vergil both are individually at the time of Devil May Cry 3. Speculation only goes so far. They could easily be well into their mid to late 30s at that time for all we know. They are half human and age far slower than you and I. There's one problem that can be easily remedied.

 

[WolfOD64]

I'm curious, but do you write? People who do write would have a better idea of just how hard that would be. For one thing, there's no clear timeline. In 3 it's been assumed that Dante and Vergil are 19. Maybe 20. That's 8-9 years between 3 and 1. Four is thought to take place a few years after the first game and Vergil is supposed to be the father of Nero who is in his late teens at the least. If Nero was 17 and Dante was 30, that would have made Vergil 12 or 13 when he was conceived. I know boys in their early teens are going through hormonal changes, but that also means that the mother was a pedophile and I doubt even a prostitute would really want that label. Especially if she was put in jail and everyone else found out. And that's just one problem the series has.

Well, there you go. I was going to answer the original statement, but this response literally beat me to it.

I'd also like to add quite possibly the most glaring inconsistency with DMC's continuity: Dante's personality. He goes from being a tap-dancing hyperdouche on acid in DMC3, a slightly laid-back but determined protagonist in 1, a calm and collected mercenary in the Animated Series, a cheeky and wildly over-the-top mentor figure in 4, and silent and dispassionate edgemaster in the final game in the time. If that's not blatant inconsistency, I don't know what is.

Not to mention that every honest and commendable attempt to write an actual story for the franchise, whether as the novelizations by Shinya Goikeda or the DMC3 Manga series, can't be considered canon because of it contradicting some mediocre plot element of the main games. That's an obstacle that both the upcoming movie adaption and WildStorm comic series will have to face in their conception. DMC is so wrapped up in convoluted plot foil that it's almost impossible to anything with it.

 

[WolfOD64]

i watched a few interviews of tameem i think he liked some of the game play of Devil may cry but i don't think he ever liked the story i'm under the impression he doesn't like Japaneses story telling and that's why DmC is so different

he didn't want to make a Devil May Cry game
he made a game that had to be called Devil May Cry
i like DmC but IMO tameem didn't get what made Dante a good character

I'm sorry, but that whole "doesn't understand what makes Dante a good character" argument is getting kind of old, and starting to hold less and less water every time I see it. There's not a lot of complexity or underlying appeal in Dante's character. He's basically Deadpool masquerading in Vash the Stampede's clothes. He's not exactly the Byronic hero of video game characters. A lot of people, both on these forums and outside, have expressed their distaste in Dante's characterization. If they do, it's not because they don't understand some crucial, integral figment of Dante's inner complexity as an in-depth character, it's because of their personal taste.

Taneem Antoniades essentially mocked the character for being a one-note caricature of tired 90's anime tropes, and despite my undying love for the series, I can't really blame him. Dante was and is a pretty one-dimensional conception, making for a better action figure than a plot-driving character in an engaging story. That's kind of why things like the Animated Series and other outside media attempts have had to change aspects of the character to fulfill any coherent demands or tension for the attempted plot. You can't stick someone like Dante in a serious narrative without it turning it into a poor man's 90's Saturday Morning anime.

 

[LoneRangerNinjutsu]

Well, there you go. I was going to answer the original statement, but this response literally beat me to it.

It's not a contest, guys, but I appreciate the thought.:happy:

I'd also like to add quite possibly the most glaring inconsistency with DMC's continuity: Dante's personality. He goes from being a tap-dancing hyperdouche on acid in DMC3, a slightly laid-back but determined protagonist in 1, a calm and collected mercenary in the Animated Series, a cheeky and wildly over-the-top mentor figure in 4, and silent and dispassionate edgemaster in the final game in the time. If that's not blatant inconsistency, I don't know what is.

In DMC3, we saw Dante at his most immature state. He was young, brash, and eccentric. After the ordeal, he mellowed a bit, but I don't think he entirely lost that persona. The first DMC does have him going against the greatest odds of his lifetime, and also it's much more deeply personal journey for him. I've never seen the anime, so I can't speak for it. In DMC4, it makes sense for him to let loose a little in his older age. Now that most of his greatest hardships have been overcome and dealt with, he can pretty much act however he pleases, so I think it's rationale for him to have some of that youthful energy. What confuses me is DMC2, where we see a eerily silent, coin flipping Dante who has almost no personality. We know this game takes place in the distant future and Dante is much older, but we don't know how far. DMC2 is the most rushed and poorly thought out of the series, even if it did some things right. But you could do decent build up to this iteration of the character with future installments. Maybe something life altering happens and Dante becomes bitter and depressed. Or maybe he's become detached from humanity after so many of his companions have died due to mortality. Who knows? With clever storytelling, you could get to it.

Not to mention that every honest and commendable attempt to write an actual story for the franchise, whether as the novelizations by Shinya Goikeda or the DMC3 Manga series, can't be considered canon because of it contradicting some mediocre plot element of the main games. That's an obstacle that both the upcoming movie adaption and WildStorm comic series will have to face in their conception. DMC is so wrapped up in convoluted plot foil that it's almost impossible to anything with it.

I've not read the novelizations or the manga, but things of that nature in almost any series can be considered void because in almost every instance it creates plot holes. Doctor Who, Star Wars, Star Trek, and other long running franchises have spin offs that aren't really considered canon and always contradict one another. What I consider canon are the main games, and I don't think that they've written themselves into a corner just yet.

 

[Director Bison]

I'm sorry, but that whole "doesn't understand what makes Dante a good character" argument is getting kind of old, and starting to hold less and less water every time I see it.

well maybe "doesn't understand what makes Dante a good character" isn't the best choice of words
maybe Taneem did get it but he choice to forget all that and do his own thing which i can respect
but then due to the backlash he kind of wimped out

IMO i think DmC would have been a stronger story if new Dante was left the way he was going to be
even tho changing new Dante to the way he is now was the smarter business move
would i or the fans have disliked the game more maybe maybe not but we may never know

 

[Innsmouth]

Well that comparison is almost unfair, if not a little absurd. Kamiya's been making games since the early 90's. He helped plan the original Resident Evil, directed Resident Evil 2, made Devil May Cry, Viewtful Joe, Okami, before making his own type of games in the form of Bayonetta and Wonderful 101.
Ninja Theory, on the other hand, made their first big game as an independent fledgling develeopment studio in the form of the PS3 sleeper hit Heavenly Sword, before making the equally underrated Enslaved: Odyssey to the West. That's what...two games? Developed in a span of two to three years? Cut them a bit of slack.
.

Actually he made 3 games before DmC. First one was Kung Fu Chaos (you know that one that deemed as one of the most racistic games ever made). So sorry, you can take first 3 games, which Kamiya directed himself (RE2, DMC and VJ) And compare against first 3 Tameem's game (Kung-Fu Chaos, Heavenly Sword and Enslaved). I'm sorry, but it's pretty obvious. Additionally don't forget that NT doesn'T have consistent team. Many team memebers left, including main designer of Enslaved, main programmer, etc. + Enslaved and Heavenly Sword were both written by extern writers.

Taneem Antionades didn't care about DMC. Most people jumped onboard NT's dev team to work on the reboot because they were fans of DMC. ****, the guy who wrote and contributed to Vergil's Downfall was a fan of the original Vergil from DMC3. Why is it that because ONE person on the Dev Team expressed dislike for the Original Dante and Universe that the ENTIRE Team is labeled as "DMC Haters"? Seriously.

Wether you agree or disagree, in the end Tameem said himself that DmC is first game he written and directed entirely. In the end entire team doesn't decide where game goes. Only director and writer does it. Good example is LoS2 where director practically pulled strings for a whole team. I have to say that aside from awfully made cutscenes, VD looks much more DMC than entire main game. It doesn't change that if DmC ever acquired by NT it will be made by Tameem, who don't give a damn about franchise in the first place.

 

[DragonMaster2010]

Taneem Antionades didn't care about DMC. Most people jumped onboard NT's dev team to work on the reboot because they were fans of DMC. ****, the guy who wrote and contributed to Vergil's Downfall was a fan of the original Vergil from DMC3. Why is it that because ONE person on the Dev Team expressed dislike for the Original Dante and Universe that the ENTIRE Team is labeled as "DMC Haters"? Seriously.

I know I'm late but...

Tameem actually did like DMC. He said he loved playing DMC1 and tried to make DmC akin to the DMC1 game he loved when it first came out.

 

[Demi-fiend]

I know I'm late but...

Tameem actually did like DMC. He said he loved playing DMC1 and tried to make DmC akin to the DMC1 game he loved when it first came out.

BUT Y HE FAILZ AT IT THEN?

I'm going to do this in every thread from now on lol.

 

[ROCKMAN X]

Vergil is supposed to be the father of Nero who is in his late teens at the least. If Nero was 17 and Dante was 30, that would have made Vergil 12 or 13 when he was conceived.

I never thought DMC series would have such disturbing implications.

 

[Jak]

As I've said multiple times now, what I say applies to the original series, and not DmC. I wanted a story centric DMC that would attempt to fix the issues of the original franchise, and we instead got a total reboot which gives us absolutely no closure on the characters we all knew and loved from the classic series.

what closure would you want? Dante was a fully realized character. so were lady and trish. nero had his little character arc and since everybody and their mother exempt DMC2 from memory, i don't think that those characters will ever be brought to the table again. but even in DMC2, everybody had an arc where they became whole. DMC was never a property that relied on story. if anything, the best story was plot diven. giving us characters that aren't so much as interesting as the plot device that gets the ball rolling. DmC, on the other hand, does the exact opposite. it's more so the characters driving the story than an overall plot that brings them together. and the issue with giving DMC another sequel is that (story wise) it doesn't need one. the ending of each DMC is wrapped up with a nice little bow. DmC on the other hand, the characters aren't fully developed. they have much to delve into. the world is now altered and we were left on a cliff hanger. now, you can say that DMC4 left on a cliff hanger, but it really isn't. i don't feel like we need to be spoonfed the fact that nero is vergil's son. there was more evidence pointing to it than r. kelly's trial. DmC, an angry, and psychotic vergil becomes the new king of hell. dante becomes the self appointed protector of humanity. and the veil that limbo was hiding behind was torn down. its like superman. if donner made the first one, then abandoned the project just for us to revisit the old superman stories, the story would only be half way finished. if anything, DmC, needs closure. not DMC

 

[WolfOD64]

I've not read the novelizations or the manga, but things of that nature in almost any series can be considered void because in almost every instance it creates plot holes. Doctor Who, Star Wars, Star Trek, and other long running franchises have spin offs that aren't really considered canon and always contradict one another. What I consider canon are the main games, and I don't think that they've written themselves into a corner just yet.

I understood and somewhat agreed with you about everything you said, except for this.

For one, the novelizations and manga attempt dig out traits in Dante that contradict with his one-note attitude in the actual games. Any development, defeat, endurance or emotion he shows is essentially rendered as a massive plot-hole, because he's always 100% confident and almost always immune to losing in the games.

As for comparing the lore and chronology to Doctor Who or Star Wars...well, I'm not too sure about that. Devil May Cry itself is one of Capcom's youngest franchises. It hasn't even had a ten-year lifespan, and enough plot inconsistencies have happened from the game being handed to multiple teams and directors. Almost nothing in the DMC canon has been set in stone, and keeps on being rewritten for the sake of creating a convenient excuse for the plot in each game to happen. Everything else in the lore is either implied or never explained, so in that regard alone, it can barely be compared to most video game franchises, let alone something like Star Wars or Star Trek.

 

[WolfOD64]

So sorry, you can take first 3 games, which Kamiya directed himself (RE2, DMC and VJ) And compare against first 3 Tameem's game (Kung-Fu Chaos, Heavenly Sword and Enslaved). I'm sorry, but it's pretty obvious. Additionally don't forget that NT doesn'T have consistent team. Many team memebers left, including main designer of Enslaved, main programmer, etc. + Enslaved and Heavenly Sword were both written by extern writers.

I do believe I said Ninja Theory as a team of developers, not Taneem Antoniades. Taneem isn't the sole reason the stories and characters in each game exist---a lot of effort from other people contributed to the final product. Heavenly Sword was designed by Taneem, yes, but Andy Serkis not only handled the Dramatic Direction, but wrote most of the story as well. And as for Enslaved, well...Taneem almost had nothing to do with it. In fact, he literally had nothing to do with it. The story, script, motion capture and direction was handled as a collaboration between Andy Serkis and Alex Garland, the latter of which would go on to direct the recent Dredd reboot. The Chief Game Designer for that game was Bruce Straley, not Taneem. Crediting Taneem as the sole brains behind Heavenly Sword and Enslaved (ESPECIALLY Enslaved, given he had NOTHING to do with it), is hugely inaccurate. In addition, saying he was the chief writer in both projects as well as the sole writer for DmC is a gross inaccuracy as well. Just like previous games, a whole host of people contributed to DmC's story, not just Taneem. Taneem oversaw and approved most of the pitched ideas, and handle the Motion Capture Direction, but a lot of the story elements and characterizations were the work of other people on the writing team.

When I brought Ninja Theory, and brought up the comparison, I was talking about their ability to create games as a WHOLE GROUP. I did this, because people don't want just plain-ass Platinum Games to work on it...they want Hideki Kamiya to work on it, essentially because he's the main creative mind behind the original Devil May Cry. The initial comparison is NT and Hideki Kamiya (since that's what everyone attributes DMC's salvation to whenever they bring up Platinum Games), not Hideki Kamiya and Taneem. A lot of people, for some deluded reason, think Hideki Kamiya is the only reason the first DMC game exists...because Shinji Mikami and Team Little Devils had nothing to do with it, apparently.

It doesn't change that if DmC ever acquired by NT it will be made by Tameem, who don't give a damn about franchise in the first place.

How do you know that? Other people that have worked on past NT projects could easily contribute to the next game, including the people I've mentioned. Taneem doesn't own the rights to DmC or its story. And if history's taught us anything, Capcom's no stranger to bumping a core designer off future sequels.

 

[WolfOD64]

I know I'm late but...

Tameem actually did like DMC. He said he loved playing DMC1 and tried to make DmC akin to the DMC1 game he loved when it first came out.

I think I used the wrong choice of words when conveying my point. Sincerest apologies.

What I meant is, Taneem doesn't really care for, well, the style of DMC...particularly Dante himself. He's criticized the game's flashy, animu, nonsensical whimsy, and claims that a lot of elements that made Dante cool in the original game aren't particularly subtle for a character in a grounded or serious narrative. It's not so much the gameplay he dislikes, so much as the "Dante-ness" of the original series.

 

[Innsmouth]

Just like previous games, a whole host of people contributed to DmC's story, not just Taneem. Taneem oversaw and approved most of the pitched ideas, and handle the Motion Capture Direction, but a lot of the story elements and characterizations were the work of other people on the writing team.

Did you read what i written? I said that both HS and Enslaved were written by external writers actually . Also please read this interview: http://www.nowgamer.com/features/1161217/dmc_devil_may_cry_ninja_theory_capcom_interview.html
IT's not something i came up from nothing. He literally says he directed, written and casted game himself.

When I brought Ninja Theory, and brought up the comparison, I was talking about their ability to create games as a WHOLE GROUP. I did this, because people don't want just plain-ass Platinum Games to work on it...they want Hideki Kamiya to work on it, essentially because he's the main creative mind behind the original Devil May Cry. The initial comparison is NT and Hideki Kamiya (since that's what everyone attributes DMC's salvation to whenever they bring up Platinum Games), not Hideki Kamiya and Taneem. A lot of people, for some deluded reason, think Hideki Kamiya is the only reason the first DMC game exists...because Shinji Mikami and Team Little Devils had nothing to do with it, apparently.

And you do realize Shinji Mikami was only EP and game was written and directed by Kamiya and Sugimura? So yes, DMC never existed if not for Kamiya, it's just like MGS never existed without Kojima. It's like that mythos that Inafune has nothing to do with Megaman because he didn't programmed it.
Initial comparison is Nt versus Clover Games or Platinum Games now. Because it isn't serious to compare single person to whole studio. If kamiya makes game it doesn't mean he works alone on it.

How do you know that? Other people that have worked on past NT projects could easily contribute to the next game, including the people I've mentioned. Taneem doesn't own the rights to DmC or its story. And if history's taught us anything, Capcom's no stranger to bumping a core designer off future sequels.

Weren't we talking about NT acquiring publishing rights for DMC franchise?