New DmC is a good game...just not a devil may cry game

[WolfOD64]

Have I not gone on record as calling DmC the "Ultimate" to DMC's "616" universe?

DmC is, for all intents and purpose, the closest thing there is to an "Ultimate Devil May Cry": a modernized reboot of the original story, retaining most of the core lore but changing things around to not only center the protagonist into a updated, contemporary setting, but also to bring the readers/players closer to the character in terms of relatability.

Ninja Theory did to Devil May Cry what Brian Michael Bendis did to Spider-Man. They abandoned the campy nature---not in the attempt to replace it, but to co-exist with it---to write the main character and story into something different. Whether you like that "difference" is entirely up to subjectivity. But that doesn't it's still relevant, and is still Devil May Cry.

As for me, well...it wasn't what I wanted from Devil May Cry at all, even though I ended up enjoying DmC when I finally gave it a chance. Initially, I wanted the next Devil May Cry to be a sequel, where the Original Dante underwent some necessary changes, not his rebooted counterpart.

But I'm pretty sure that would've caused even MORE hatred and controversy.

 

[berto]

I feel like DmC is an introduction game. If they ever make a sequel, I definitely want more moves, weapons and less platforming. I mean, it's nice during my first playthrough, but people who play this game dozens of time, over and over again (me), get kinda tired of it lol. Esp the dream sequences are rather pointless after 500 playthroughs.

If they combine that and retain the fluid combat of DmC as it is now, I'll be so happy.

You know, this is true. For all the mixed feelings DmC brings up it certainly brought up a lot new people to the fold. I've known a quite a few people who went from DmC to DMC1. It brought attention to the rest of the franchise from people that might otherwise have never looked before.

 

[GregaMan]

I think the Ultimate Spider-Man, Nolan Batman comparisons are pretty apt. Ultimately it is the creators who decide what direction or directions (see: Mega Man) to take an IP, but it's each consumer's choice to decide whether they accept or reject that direction. What you identify as the "essence" of Devil May Cry may not be the same criteria as that identified by the creators.

DmC is of course brimming with concepts taken from the classic series, but beyond that it's the philosophy going on under the hood--namely with regards to combat--that makes it a Devil May Cry game. I won't speak for the creators themselves, but I suspect they identify the essence of the series as something much more abstract than how the characters look or speak or how the camera works. You don't get an action game that feels like this unless you are working under the tutelage of, specifically, Mr. Itsuno. I really believe that. One day I may be proven wrong, and I'll be glad if I am.

 

[Goldsickle]

I think the Ultimate Spider-Man, Nolan Batman comparisons are pretty apt. Ultimately it is the creators who decide what direction or directions (see: Mega Man) to take an IP, but it's each consumer's choice to decide whether they accept or reject that direction. What you identify as the "essence" of Devil May Cry may not be the same criteria as that identified by the creators.

This.

If only certain people would realize that the creators and intellectual property owners have the final say.


What you said about "essence" seen by fans not being the same as the creators idea of "essence" is something I've been saying in some other forums.

This is especially frequent in Resident Evil forums where 'old school' fanboys complain about how the newer games betray the "core elements" of the series, when these "core elements" are 100% made up by the fans and has absolutely no bearings on the creators.
For example, some fanboy will say that Resident Evil must have fixed camera and tank controls to be "worthy" of the Resident Evil label, while the guys at Capcom all have their own personal interpretation of the franchise (one of these which led to the creation of Devil May Cry).

 

[Foxtrot94]

the guys at Capcom all have their own personal interpretation of the franchise (one of these which led to the creation of Devil May Cry).

Actually, DMC came to be be its own franchise cause it was considered by the guys at Capcom too action oriented to be a RE game. Kinda ironical, seeing what RE has become, eh?
So yeah, Capcom too identified RE as a horror oriented game, just like the old fans do, and they have all the right to voice their disappointment about the route RE has taken.
Likewise, people have all the right to complain about the direction Devil May Cryhas taken with the reboot.

 

[Goldsickle]

Actually, DMC came to be be its own franchise cause it was considered by the guys at Capcom too action oriented to be a RE game. Kinda ironical, seeing what RE has become, eh?

That's not the exact storyline.

Based on all the interviews I've read, it started when Shinji Mikami told Hideki Kamiya that he can do whatever he wants for RE4.

And Kamiya did just that.

Even back when he was developing RE2, he hated horror movies and in another interview, he mentions that he doesn't like games being slowed down by puzzles.
These factors lead to him taking the "stylish" route with RE4.

Now some people are probably thinking that some Capcom exec ordered Kamiya to cease his project but that's not what happened, because you see, the staff has a lot of free reign in what direction they want to go.

The only reason Kamiya stopped releasing his game as a new IP was due to Shinji Mikami negotiating with him, talking Kamiya out of releasing his game as an RE title.
It took Mikami months to successfully negotiate with Kamiya, which suggests that if Shinji didn't do anything, then the "Stylish RE4" would have been the official RE4 title.

It also shows that Mikami can't just order certain staff members around when there's a disagreement.

 

[Innsmouth]

That's not the exact storyline.

Based on all the interviews I've read, it started when Shinji Mikami told Hideki Kamiya that he can do whatever he wants for RE4.

And Kamiya did just that.

Even back when he was developing RE2, he hated horror movies and in another interview, he mentions that he doesn't like games being slowed down by puzzles.
These factors lead to him taking the "stylish" route with RE4.

Now some people are probably thinking that some Capcom exec ordered Kamiya to cease his project but that's not what happened, because you see, the staff has a lot of free reign in what direction they want to go.

The only reason Kamiya stopped releasing his game as a new IP was due to Shinji Mikami negotiating with him, talking Kamiya out of releasing his game as an RE title.
It took Mikami months to successfully negotiate with Kamiya, which suggests that if Shinji didn't do anything, then the "Stylish RE4" would have been the official RE4 title.

It also shows that Mikami can't just order certain staff members around when there's a disagreement.

Actually it's exactly what @Foxtrot94 said. Yes, It was Mikami who scrapped original DMC build in, but, he actually did it because it was to huge departure from a franchise's origin. And I put your statement about "months" into question since actual Kamiya's development was only 1 year. Another year was only recherche about europe architecture

It just proves that if things strayed to far from the source it just doesn't makes sense mindlessly slap name on top of it and make separate IP instead.

 

[Goldsickle]

Actually it's exactly what @Foxtrot94 said.

He was saying "guys at Capcom", implying that the team universally thought that Kamiya's RE4 was straying too much, when it was mostly Shinji Mikami & Yoshiki Okamoto that were "angry" with Kamiya's decision.
There could be more but those are the only names I remember from all the reading I did.

The fact that production continued while Mikami took months to negotiate shows that Kamiya had a team supporting his decision.

And I put your statement about "months" into question since actual Kamiya's development was only 1 year.

Actually, there was an interview that said Mikami taking "three months" to negotiate Kamiya to turn his idea into a new IP.

It just proves that if things strayed to far from the source it just doesn't makes sense mindlessly slap name on top of it and make separate IP instead.

My point is that the developers all have their own interpretation or criteria for a certain franchise.
They can "stray away from the source" all they want.
Not all ideas get canceled, like how RE4 was released and changed the franchise.

 

[Innsmouth]

He was saying "guys at Capcom", implying that the team universally thought that Kamiya's RE4 was straying too much, when it was mostly Shinji Mikami & Yoshiki Okamoto that were "angry" with Kamiya's decision.
There could be more but those are the only names I remember from all the reading I did.

The fact that production continued while Mikami took months to negotiate shows that Kamiya had a team supporting his decision.

One developer doesn't call shots. If higher ups were convinced that Kamiya's version were right one they would have keeped it. They weren't.

Actually, there was an interview that said Mikami taking "three months" to negotiate Kamiya to turn his idea into a new IP.

Like I said, I never heard it, so I still not sure about it.

My point is that the developers all have their own interpretation or criteria for a certain franchise.
They can "stray away from the source" all they want.
Not all ideas get canceled, like how RE4 was released and changed the franchise.

"developers" at the moment don't call a shots. Especially not at capcom. People who make ultimate decisions are those who don't make games. Hense amount of bad decisions on Capcom's accord. That was reason why Mikami, Kamiya, and pretty much all talents left capcom. Because they were sick of somebody telling them what to do and forcing them change politics. Do you ACTUALLY think Mikami was happy to see what became of RE6?

 

[Goldsickle]

If higher ups were convinced that Kamiya's version were right one they would have keeped it. They weren't.

There's absolutely no information whatsoever that an exec or "higher up" was involved in the cancellation of Kamiya's "Stylish" RE4.
It was strictly between Mikami and Kamiya.

Mikami didn't have the authority to order Kamiya around and had to spend months talking Kamiya out of finishing his "Stylish RE4".

Like I said, I never heard it, so I still not sure about it.

Sorry but I didn't bookmark it.
I didn't think I'd need to specifically remember one of the few hundred RE articles I read to be brought up for an internet discussion.
But that's what I got out of reading interviews specifically about RE4 & DMC.

"developers" at the moment don't call a shots. Especially not at capcom. People who make ultimate decisions are those who don't make games. Hense amount of bad decisions on Capcom's accord.

In other words, you didn't do any research.

If you bothered reading all the archived interviews about RE's development since 1996, you'd know that notable team members like Shinji Mikami, Hiroyuki Kobayashi and Hideki Kamiya had always been calling the shots when it comes to the design decisions.

There are exceptions, like publishing and porting (RE4 ported to PS2 against Mikami's wishes) but when it comes to the actual creation of a game, the development team has a free reign.

Are you one of those people who also thought that execs control every single aspect of game design?

 

[Innsmouth]

There's absolutely no information whatsoever that an exec or "higher up" was involved in the cancellation of Kamiya's "Stylish" RE4.
It was strictly between Mikami and Kamiya.

Mikami didn't have the authority to order Kamiya around and had to spend months talking Kamiya out of finishing his "Stylish RE4".

Like I said, it's not like you Mikami can come up and sit on Kamiya's place without greenlight from higher ups.

In other words, you didn't do any research.

If you bothered reading all the archived interviews about RE's development since 1996, you'd know that notable team members like Shinji Mikami, Hiroyuki Kobayashi and Hideki Kamiya had always been calling the shots when it comes to the design decisions.

There are exceptions, like publishing and porting (RE4 ported to PS2 against Mikami's wishes) but when it comes to the actual creation of a game, the development team has a free reign.

Are you one of those people who also thought that execs control every single aspect of game design?

Welp, looks like it's you who didn't do any homework. Kamiya specifically complained that DMC2 was basically made behind his back, so he didn't even knew it's in development until some guy came and ask for Phantom's concepts. Inafune had to HIDE his works on Dead Rising, knowing that higher ups close his project unless people won't voice their support for it first. If you bother to do actual research, go and read reason why all developers from current P* team left capcom for good. It was stated many times, so I don't think it'll be hard to find. Lack of creative freedom drove them to it.

 

[DragonMaster2010]

The situation of RE4 to DMC1 is vastly different from DMC to DmC in that; Kamiya's RE4 was more on the hack n slashing with guns and stylishness turned up to a higher degree as oppose to the horror genre that RE was known for. Because of this really big difference in how Kamiya's RE4 was, it was changed to Devil May Cry.

This is not the same case with DMC to DmC because the core elements are still there. It's still a hack n slash, it still features a devil hunter with guns and a sword in a long leather coat who kills demons stylishly, and it still has Dante fighting evil with a cocky attitude to match. DmC's only real difference is that it was a western interpretation and not an east one. East and West have different forms of what's cool and such with varying opinions, but one core thing that stayed is that both DMC and DmC were hack n slash/beat em up games.
Different from RE4 to DMC1's case.

 

[Goldsickle]

Like I said, it's not like you Mikami can come up and sit on Kamiya's place without greenlight from higher ups.

I will say it as many times as you want.

There was no involvement of any higher ups from all the data I read about DMC's creation.
All the interviews stated that Mikami negotiated with Kamiya. It was between those two.

If there was any story I missed about a Capcom exec getting involved, do show me a link about it (if it's not your made-up assumption).

Kamiya specifically complained that DMC2 was basically made behind his back, so he didn't even knew it's in development until some guy came and ask for Phantom's concepts. Inafune had to HIDE his works on Dead Rising, knowing that higher ups close his project unless people won't voice their support for it first.

Completely doesn't negate what I said about how the team has free reign in the creation of a game.

DMC2 was made behind Kamiya's back but the game's development team weren't given restrictive rules about the content, right?
I haven't read about Inafune needing to hide Dead Rising but does it say anywhere that the execs dictated on how the game should be created?

Execs have some control but not every single thing.

 

[Demi-fiend]

In other words, you didn't do any research.

The same could most likely be said for 99.9% of the "Hardcore" fanbase, seeing as how they simply parrot other people's opinions for the majority of every single "debate" (argument) they bring up.

 

[devil_inside123]

Wow people are still posting?

 

[Foxtrot94]

Wow people are still posting?

What's strange with that?

 

[Demi-fiend]

What's strange with that?

Exactly. Sometimes, these topics go on for weeks.

 

[Innsmouth]

I will say it as many times as you want.

There was no involvement of any higher ups from all the data I read about DMC's creation.
All the interviews stated that Mikami negotiated with Kamiya. It was between those two.

If there was any story I missed about a Capcom exec getting involved, do show me a link about it (if it's not your made-up assumption).

It's just common sense. You can't come to somebody's office put feet on the table and say "I do it now" without your chief's approval. You can try it yourself though

Completely doesn't negate what I said about how the team has free reign in the creation of a game.

DMC2 was made behind Kamiya's back but the game's development team weren't given restrictive rules about the content, right?
I haven't read about Inafune needing to hide Dead Rising but does it say anywhere that the execs dictated on how the game should be created?

Execs have some control but not every single thing.

Well, Inafune made both DR and Lost Planet without approval and showcased his job only when he gained approval of fanbase. As for ristrictive rules. Ninja Theory had retcon some plot and visual elements to ensure game remains under 16+ approval as was stated by Itsuno himself. Basically capcom forced them to do it to fall into games age restriction. Developers only make games. Higher up decide which games and in what they should accomplish.

 

[Goldsickle]

It's just common sense. You can't come to somebody's office put feet on the table and say "I do it now" without your chief's approval.

That's just your own crass assumption.

It was said on a recent interview with Yasuhisa Kawamura that Mikami told Kamiya that he can do "whatever he wants" for RE4, showing how much free reign they have on the game design, without needing any "higher up's" approval.

"Mikami told Kamiya to do as he wanted, so he did," explains Kawamura.

Developers only make games. Higher up decide which games and in what they should accomplish.

Still no example of execs or "higher ups" dictating the game design itself.

 

[sssensational]

You know, this is true. For all the mixed feelings DmC brings up it certainly brought up a lot new people to the fold. I've known a quite a few people who went from DmC to DMC1. It brought attention to the rest of the franchise from people that might otherwise have never looked before.

Exactly. Like I said, I've never even heard of Devil May Cry before this game. Before all the backlash from the fans, and all the positive reviews from the critics. I was like "what's up with this game?" so I played DmC. I finished DmC, and loved it, so then I was wondering "well, what's up with classic DMC?".

I've been paying attention to your posts on this forum about the different Dante's, and if I followed my gut based on your descriptions, I'd say that DMC1 Dante's the one for me. I should go play the game one day.