Vergil95
Might controls everything, and without strength, y
Actually the only things That can be speculated is that sparda is alive or dead, since Modeus say he is alive in the anime and other character think this too, but other think he is dead
That flashback *Spoiler warning*
- Thread starter AgentRedgrave
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ef9dante_oSsshea
Well-known Member
He got lost in the Bermuda triangle
ef9dante_oSsshea
Well-known Member
Sparda is Chuck Norris confirmed
Mcguyver was based on spardas days as a human too ha
Mcguyver was based on spardas days as a human too ha
Taramafor
Well-known Member
Well read the post before the one you mentioned (Picard's) and you'll see where I'm coming from.
Protecting people. Good. Revenge. Bad. It's that simple. Virgil accepts the truth for what it is and Dante hides behind humour. Again, simple. It's kind of like one takes things too seriously and the other not seriously enough.
My point is Virgil started with good intentions. Dante did not. Virgil, protecting people. Dante, not even caring. Simple as. Which is good and which is not?
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ef9dante_oSsshea
Well-known Member
And as I said , just because Dante was a nonchalant teen who wanted to party and said fu to the world
Doesn't mean he is malicious , had bad intent or didn't care about people
An uncaring person who attacks their brother wouldn't cry for them , try to protect lady or save anyone
Once he beat Vergil he could have just left it there
He opened a shop to help people
And before teminigru he helped the innocent and saved em too in the manga
He had the shop being setup when Vergil appeared
Just like I can't prove Vergil was dark from long before the events of 3
You aren't psychic and can't prove Dante's inner morals or feelings towards anything
Any person good or bad can put on a front to people
Doesn't mean he is malicious , had bad intent or didn't care about people
An uncaring person who attacks their brother wouldn't cry for them , try to protect lady or save anyone
Once he beat Vergil he could have just left it there
He opened a shop to help people
And before teminigru he helped the innocent and saved em too in the manga
He had the shop being setup when Vergil appeared
Just like I can't prove Vergil was dark from long before the events of 3
You aren't psychic and can't prove Dante's inner morals or feelings towards anything
Any person good or bad can put on a front to people
Taramafor
Well-known Member
Can't you just admit Dante was an uncaring person that didn't have any good intentions at first until Mary came along? (Baring being draw to Virgil , but we have no idea what intent was there. Dante himself probably just "felt drawn").
And I'm going based of what is shown in the game. I actually CAN tell how people tick. But that aside I'm telling you what DANTE SAID HIMSELF!
So stop making excuses to circumvent that. He's done plenty of bad and would probably tell you himself if he was asked. You want to act like he's a saint. Technically he is now but he wasn't before.
And I'm going based of what is shown in the game. I actually CAN tell how people tick. But that aside I'm telling you what DANTE SAID HIMSELF!
So stop making excuses to circumvent that. He's done plenty of bad and would probably tell you himself if he was asked. You want to act like he's a saint. Technically he is now but he wasn't before.
ef9dante_oSsshea
Well-known Member
I'm not denying what he said , I'm saying a person acting like they
Don't care , doesn't mean they genuinely don't
We don't know what his headspace was like at that moment
It's not black and white , one statement from him in the game isn't an ironclad window to his psyche and persona
It's what he felt at that time there and then , and is no proof he is always like that
You are using a statement and your perception of it and his showings as your proof
I am disagreeing with you
I'm not trying to disprove you, I am simply giving my take on it as I see it differently
I have had a lot of heartache in my life , I lost my dad at 11 , all my grandparents and some aunts and uncles In the last 20 years
Sometimes I acted like it didn't get to me , even convinced myself it didn't and bottled it up
But deep down I did care and care a lot
So as I said before I will just agree to disagree as I don't want to derail the thread further
I respect your opinion and thoughts on it
So kudos
Don't care , doesn't mean they genuinely don't
We don't know what his headspace was like at that moment
It's not black and white , one statement from him in the game isn't an ironclad window to his psyche and persona
It's what he felt at that time there and then , and is no proof he is always like that
You are using a statement and your perception of it and his showings as your proof
I am disagreeing with you
I'm not trying to disprove you, I am simply giving my take on it as I see it differently
I have had a lot of heartache in my life , I lost my dad at 11 , all my grandparents and some aunts and uncles In the last 20 years
Sometimes I acted like it didn't get to me , even convinced myself it didn't and bottled it up
But deep down I did care and care a lot
So as I said before I will just agree to disagree as I don't want to derail the thread further
I respect your opinion and thoughts on it
So kudos
Taramafor
Well-known Member
Except we see him like that in the reboot. Which basically confirms Dante was "uncaring" in the past.
Granted, the reboot wasn't that great and didn't do the best job of showing in that limelight, but I think it would be a mistake to to say Dante "didn't care" (although in the reboot he did have Kat. But since it's a reboot we don't even know if Kat "sticks" or if she died after the reboot). I know what that's like myself and I know plenty of other people that have been in that situation. When you start to feel like there's nothing to care about you still care, and after you have something to care about again you can tell yourself you don't care when you do. Even "caring too much" can lead to a "lack of care".
But what did Dante HAVE to care about before 3? Remember, he lost his mother. He had nothing. Virgil somehow met a girl at least (We really need to hear that story). When you don't have anything to care about then that's what there is. When you have something to care about that's what there is. There's also wanting something/someone to care for (protect in Virgil's case) but that's technically another matter. But wondering if others care about you or not can tie in. But let's not get too in depth with that.
Which just makes it bloody ironic if you think about it. Virgil, the one that had someone to care about, ends up being the heartless jackass where Dante somehow gets out of a rut. But that just means what was "good" fuled Virgil's "evil" ambitions. With Dante being the mirror as always. Except at the ending in 5, where Virgil now wants to protect his son even if he won't admit it (Questioning Nero's acceptance of existence and strength seems to confirm this).
Granted, the reboot wasn't that great and didn't do the best job of showing in that limelight, but I think it would be a mistake to to say Dante "didn't care" (although in the reboot he did have Kat. But since it's a reboot we don't even know if Kat "sticks" or if she died after the reboot). I know what that's like myself and I know plenty of other people that have been in that situation. When you start to feel like there's nothing to care about you still care, and after you have something to care about again you can tell yourself you don't care when you do. Even "caring too much" can lead to a "lack of care".
But what did Dante HAVE to care about before 3? Remember, he lost his mother. He had nothing. Virgil somehow met a girl at least (We really need to hear that story). When you don't have anything to care about then that's what there is. When you have something to care about that's what there is. There's also wanting something/someone to care for (protect in Virgil's case) but that's technically another matter. But wondering if others care about you or not can tie in. But let's not get too in depth with that.
Which just makes it bloody ironic if you think about it. Virgil, the one that had someone to care about, ends up being the heartless jackass where Dante somehow gets out of a rut. But that just means what was "good" fuled Virgil's "evil" ambitions. With Dante being the mirror as always. Except at the ending in 5, where Virgil now wants to protect his son even if he won't admit it (Questioning Nero's acceptance of existence and strength seems to confirm this).
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ef9dante_oSsshea
Well-known Member
Dude the reboot has no tie in to the other games
It's a separate universe, so how he is in that has no bearing
Now I am moving on from this debate as , I don't want to take up this thread to have a back and forth that could go on ages
It's a separate universe, so how he is in that has no bearing
Now I am moving on from this debate as , I don't want to take up this thread to have a back and forth that could go on ages
Taramafor
Well-known Member
Yes and no. Capcom themselves stated they got a lot of ideas from the reboot. AND we have V. Who exists in both games.
Reboot aside I was saying the reboot could have done a better job at showing Dante's past. So let's say the reboot never happened. It still doesn't change the fact capcom had a plan for "Dante's hard past". Which is nonetheless implied in 3 regardless.
Vergil95
Might controls everything, and without strength, y
The reboot is non Canon with the dmc main timeline... I probably say this dozen of time, and you write yourself it's Called REBOOOOOOOOTTTTTT... You know what reboot mean? Capcom say that they got ideas from the reboot regarding how to make the game, and we are talking about the gameplay part and how to narrate the story, but not the story itself and character... Also dante did care for people, he helped people before dmc 3 in manga and novel and some part of this now is Canon... he care for nell goldenstein when he died, and also seems to be a friend of morrison since a long time... When dante say to mary: I know what is important now, I know what I need to do... Is referring to the fact that he know that he must stop vergil and kill him even if it's his brother, like Mary is going to stop is father, even if it is father she must kill him because he Is evil, and during all the game dante seems to point at this with Mary, when he say that this is his family business even if she say that he is a demon and can't understand family.. Lady: he's my father and besides who else can undo what is Done? Than dante say: well than I ll go too... This implies that dante realized that he must undo what vergil was up to because all of this is vergil and sparda foult in a sense so only dante can stop this, it s is job now it s his family business... Dante: This whole business started with my father sealing the entrance between the two worlds. And now, my brother is trying to break the spell and turn this place into demonville. This is my family matter too. Quite frankly, at first, I didn't give a damn. But because of you, I know what's important now. I know what I need to do... This also implies the fact that dante realize thanks to Mary that he must stop vergil no matter what... Dante was already motivated to kill demon and save people that s why he opened the shop before dmc 3, lady give him the motivation about the fact that he had to stop his brother for good, Infact v sayd to nero in dmc 5 that even if they are brother dante had to fight him because it need to stop his evil intantion even if this mean fight the persone he loved.... And Virgil is written vergil, sorry but I can't just stand, i had to tell this.... And vergil didn't start to protect people and went bad, he did what he did to protect himself and survive, he say this himself in dmc 5, vergil is probably the one that doesn't want to accept the truth and hide himself behind coldness and silence and want to get rid of his humanity to not feel emotion again because he things they make him weaker, while dante accepted the truth and his human part and decided to hunt down demon for good intention like his father before him
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Foxtrot94
Elite Hunter
Protecting people? Vergil? Where'd you get that from? That was a headcanon people had that this game pretty much shattered completely. This very flashback explains why he's so obsessed with power (aside from the admiration for his father that DMC3 showed) and I explained it in my other post. In case you can't be bothered to scroll back, he was left alone fending off murderous demons on his own (believing that his mother never even bothered to try and reach him, causing the resentment towards her and Dante) and the result of this childhood trauma was him developing his fixation with power as a means to protect HIMSELF. He felt abandoned, unloved (as V mentions to Nero) and betrayed and thus learned to only rely on himself, developing his stoic, solitary and manipulative attitude.
He doesn't care about anyone else. I don't know how you can state his goal is to protect people when in DMC3 he causes a giant demonic tower to come out of the ground, devastate a city and kill God knows how many, and doesn't hesitate to murder his own brother or his own suspicious ally when he has no more use for them. Even in 5, when he learns he has a son, he says he means nothing to him. Empathy is not something Vergil has, he never did in any of the games.
At the end of DMC5, then is where he's a bit more chill, we can see a sprinkle of a different, lighter Vergil but that's about it.
The fact that the devs took some concepts and ideas from DmC doesn't make it canon to the main series. It is still a separate universe. Just like Vergil95 said above me.
And where is V in DmC?
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Taramafor
Well-known Member
I just told you. I'm going to quote him again so it sinks in.
"Might controls everything. And without strength you can not PROTECT anything. Let alone yourself". This is BOTH his mother AND whoever nero's mother was/is. Naturally this includes himself as well but that's obvious. He had a girl in his life Who he lost (AND his mother). That experience will make someone afraid of losing anyone that matters to you. You want to protect yourself, yes, but you also want to make sure you protect what MATTERS to you. You want to make sure you're STRONG enough to do that. Thus Virgil's quest for power. The thing is Virgil doesn't HAVE anything to protect other then Nero's mother (in the past) and now currently Nero himself. So naturally he only had himself and Urizen happened because only selfish. At no point do we see anyone that matters to him in any of the games except for the ending in 5 (and a bit of the reboot which shows the mother dying too). Except maybe Dante but I don't think we can count him. That said they do watch each others backs at times. You haven't SEEN Virgil's "love interest" and want to turn a blind eye to it.
Considering he had a girl in his life, who is likely dead (or at least lost) it only makes logical sense that his desire for power comes form wanting to protect what matters to him. He only says "That was a long time ago" but he does seem fond of the memory when he says it.
This isn't to be confused with "Protecting the common person" though. Virgil doesn't care about protecting 9/10 people. He ONLY cares about people that have gained his acceptance/loyalty. Which is very few in number. Practically none existent for the most part. He had ONLY himself for most of the time. Therefor Virgil gets used to being on his own and having no one to protect. Only caring about himself right up until the very end of 5 (Nero's son). But BEFORE 3 he did have someone. We don't see it in the games but it's HEAVILY IMPLIED. Actually it's been confirmed.
It's ALSO been CONFIRMED by Capcom themselves that had Nero lost Kyrie then he would have ended up like Virgil. So no, this is not headcannon. This is capcom cannon. I'll have to look through posts to find who said the name of who confirmed this (began with a H I think?). Nero cares for Kyrie. Which logically means Virgil cared about whoever nero's mother was (or is if she's still alive somehow and shows up in a later game). If that isn't waving a flag at "Lost loved ones that could have been protected better" then what is? That CLEARLY states "Wanting to protect anyone that matters" (IF they happen to be around. Which for Virgil was not the case for 95% of the series).
And he's "lighter" for a reason. It's because of Nero. Who fought for his acceptance. And thus Vergil now cares about him. Technically Nero was fighting so they wouldn't kill each other at first but the acceptance thing happens in the fight itself. Virgil actually STANDS DOWN when he can still fight. Which he's NEVER done before. He knows he has a son now. Not that Nero needs protecting much. Why do you think Virgil suddenly wanted to cut down the tree? If it's not Nero then it's the town. For he says himself "The roots will continue to spread through town". Interfering in his business is just an excuse. Virgil is too proud to say he cares about you.
Whatever way you look at it he's protecting something. And it's more then himself. I doubt he actually cares about the town himself. But Nero does. And Kyrie is in it. So there's that. I doubt he'd want his son to go what he went through. If Virgil only cares about himself then why TRAP HIMSELF IN HELL? That's a bloody sacrifice.
It's one cutscene basically. Virgil simply wears a white mask and calls himself V. That's basically it. It was probably an easter egg to the film "V for Vendetta".
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Vergil95
Might controls everything, and without strength, y
[/QUOTE
We don't know if Vergil lost a girl or what happened to Nero s mother... We don't know if he care about her, and vergil quote in dmc 3 doesn't mean he care about people and want power to protect someone, after dmc 5 i think we realize that vergil wanted power to protect himself because he was alone for his entire life and think his mother left him alone... Also for the trilionth time is written VERGIL not VIRGIL, if you want people to take you serious at least write the name correctly
Taramafor
Well-known Member
V also says himself that "He was alone". So yes, Virgil was alone. But what did he lose to feel alone? And I doubt it's JUST his mother. Dante implied Virgil felt abandoned (when he meets Urizen). By his mother specifically. I bet Virgil felt like he could have protected his mother. But does he also think his mother could have been stronger? (or his past love interest even)
This contradicts. You're right about not knowing exactly what happened though. but if the mother is alive then... where is she? Virgil doesn't seem like the one night stand type to me (Dante just jokes about it). Plus, as I said previously (which people seem to keep ignoring) Nero didn't lose Kyrie and Virgil lost whoever Nero's mother was.
Nero also says "All I had is Kyrie and Credo". By this logic Nero's mother isn't around at all. Which just means Nero also lost his mother somehow (or never even had her in the first place. Which is probably more likely. This only means its more likely Virgil knew her better and then lost her).
Virgil's past love interest technically "didn't exist" up until... Well not now, but 4. Capcom had to "add her in the past later on".
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Vergil95
Might controls everything, and without strength, y
VERGILLLLLLLL not VIIIIIRGILLLL
vergil whit the E not whit the I, my God XD
Vergil lost his mother and leaved alone all his life dante referred to this, we don't know if he Lost someone else, but since he left Nero s mother alone and nero himself he probably didn t care about them or did he care but his quest for power was all he wanted, also in the final battle in dmc 5 vergil didn't even know he had a son and also when they talk about Nero's mother with dante they just surpass the argument whit ease so he probably didn't care about anyone but himself but this doesn't mean he is evil
Taramafor
Well-known Member
My typoitis strikes again. Anyway, Virgil did indeed live alone MOST of his life. When that happens people tend to say "all". Because it feels like it. Which brings us back to Nero's mother. The very fact that Virgil had sex with a girl to produce Nero means Virgil wasn't alone "all" of his life. We don't know the details but I think Virgil, based on what we know about him, is the type to only do that with someone he really really cares about (unless we look at the reboot where he's a snarky teenager. But let's pretend that never happened. That said we don't know what Virgil was like when he was younger beyond that either).
When I say "lost" I mean "They either got murdered, died in a freak accident, got kidnapped..." The list goes on. It could even be boring "Falling out and distance" stuff but that's not exactly very entertaining. So it's doubtful Capcom will take that approach. So I consider it more likely it was something more traumatic. Thus affecting Virgil's mental state of mind.
It's kind of "cheesy" to go "They lost a girl" but eh, what else can they do at this point? Capcom already tossed that detail in. They got to do something with it. They kind of had to add in Virgil having a girl because of Nero being in 4 (who even back in 4 was implied to be Virgil's son).
Vergil95
Might controls everything, and without strength, y
Sorry but I didn't even read this post since you continue write Virgil instead of vergil... I can't take you seriously
Picard
Starfleet Demon
It was Yuichiro Hiraki who said that part about Nero and Kyrie:
Random DMC4 facts
Vergil's kid, allright. https://i-h2.pinimg.com/564x/40/84/aa/4084aa887d7338ac1b8865426f75a893.jpg?b=t
And yes, Vergil is definitely a tragic character, in more ways than one. He lost his family - twice, apparently, tried to prevent that loss from happening again, but lost sight of the goal and ended up the same as the very beings that had caused him pain. You could probably find a parallel in Greek tragedy.
And that is why I agree that Nero is important. Vergil had lost his family, only his brother remained but that was obviously not enough. But now he has somebody he is responsible for - he has purpose again. So it is safe to say that he is not going to go "muh duh evil again" - unless Nero gets killed somehow, obviously, but I hope that is not the route they will take.
And please stop writing "Virgil". I had to actually stop and think about who you are talking about.