New Vergil or Devil May Cry 3 Vergil?

[Innsmouth]

Do I need to remind you that the absence of evidence does not mean the evidence of absence? Just because they didn't show more people or facilities doesn't mean they don't exist dude. Then of course there's the fact that you so plainly waived away. Lots of people tweeted about it in the ending scene, yes, but there were also people talking about it all as if they're completely not surprised, because they were other members of the Order! Especially the one saying "Demons, we have awoken" which is a response that "Hey demons, see all these people talking about demons? Yeah, we're awake now! You're rule has ended!" It's a taunt from someone in the organization that was responsible for bringing the demons down.

Where is there is a proof it typed by member of order. So don't fantasies about some facilities that may or may not be in the game. As for non-surprised people...who said nobody beside Vergil had organisation like his? It's pure assumption. ...just like anything you can say on the matter.

So because Dante foiled his plans for world domination that we had yet to see, that means that those unseen plans must have been bad...? His plan sort of hinged on Dante accepting to rule along with him, which he totally thought he would because he mistook their familial and racial bonds as stronger than Dante's desire for freedom for himself and humanity.

Well ... he did poor job at it by literally annoying Dante to kick his ass. I already said he's incompetent and does poor conspirator job. Whole scene was just mashed up, to somehow justify final fight, while if he was a tick more smarter, it would take Dante ages to figure it out.

NOTHING YOU PROVIDED HELD UP

! Some of it contradicted what we explicitly know in the game and some of it was flat out headcanon that had no proof to back it up! How can you constantly try to slam me for not providing information and only seeing what I want to see, and yet do the same thing yourself!?

You can't read between the lines and come up with unconfirmed or contradicting points!

"what we know" in your language far to over crosses into "what i fantasied about game i love". I can do slam you for it, because you are using your fantasies much to often and refuse to acknowledge it. I only talk about what've see and what conclusion can be driven in my opinion.

YES! EXACTLY! He thinks the humans are stupid and weak and need to be ruled over because of that, and he doesn't

care about them personally, he cares about them as subjects. As a mass of idiots he feels he has the privilege and even right to rule over because he's a superior being. If a few die, so be it (crack a few eggs to make an omelete, as they say), but he'll be damned if he's going to just let them run amok like idiots and make things worse.

But it's not like he wanted to protect them, he just used it in poor attempt to motivate dante. That's it. All he wants is to rule.

But, that's another thing stated early on in the game's development, and I'm not sure I can easily find that again through four years of internet.

Meaning its once again some unconfirmed stuff. And even without magic, Hunter was able to throw Ferris Wheel around. So it's more than enough power to whipe 70% of humanity out.

 

[Chancey289]

You are really something man.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

Where is there is a proof it typed by member of order.

The fact that it was a message directed explicitly at the demons, as someone who knows the demons were keeping people "asleep".

So don't fantasies about some facilities that may or may not be in the game. As for non-surprised people...who said nobody beside Vergil had organisation like his? It's pure assumption. ...just like anything you can say on the matter.

So...it's possible for other demon-usurping organizations to exist when the Order was, as Kat explicitly said to be, the last and only line of defense against the demons, but it's impossible for there to be surviving members of the organization in another location in any point in the world...?

Well ... he did poor job at it by literally annoying Dante to kick his ass. I already said he's incompetent and does poor conspirator job.

How can you say he's a poor conspirator when he literally got a step away from his goal, and succeeded in defeating Mundus and his army without his existence as a nephilim ever being known? He got everyone to do what he wanted, and even when plans went awry, he was still able to correct course and complete his objective. His plan didn't unravel until the very last possible second, and only because he was too confident thinking that familial and racial bonds would be stronger than whatever experiences Dante had in the past that shaped him.

That's not a poor conspirator or the least be incompetent. His only mistake was in thinking he had Dante in his pocket.

"what we know" in your language far to over crosses into "what i fantasied about game i love". I can do slam you for it, because you are using your fantasies much to often and refuse to acknowledge it. I only talk about what've see and what conclusion can be driven in my opinion.

I'm not the one using headcanon based on leaps in logic and ignorance! Everything I've always been saying is from the games or Word of God from the developers! It's not my f#cking fault if a game provides no information to help back up a point!

But it's not like he wanted to protect them, he just used it in poor attempt to motivate dante. That's it. All he wants is to rule.

You can't split that up! He wants to rule them because the humans are idiots and he doesn't want them f#cking up the world or themselves. He explicitly talks about the chaos humans would cause if they weren't kept in check and protected from themselves. Vergil wants to rule over them because he doesn't want to simply live in a world that slowly immolates itself because of the humans he hates are running around unsupervised.

Meaning its once again some unconfirmed stuff. And even without magic, Hunter was able to throw Ferris Wheel around. So it's more than enough power to whipe 70% of humanity out.

It's not unconfirmed, I just can't be assed to go and sift through four entire years of content for you to simply ignore or endlessly dispute it. The Hunter pushing the ferris wheel was done from Limbo, with an effect that carried over into the real world.

Then of course, there's still the fact that the demons, despite how hearty they may be, can be easily killed by conventional weapons, and now you have entire militaries that can lay waste to whatever demonic threat arises. That's why the demons needed Limbo, it gave them strength and security against their enemies.

 

[DarkSlayerZero]

Old Vergil's motives

http://devilmaycry.org/threads/verg...-official-book-called-trinity-of-fates.15799/

-Dante's older twin brother. In contrast to Dante, he is the type who dislikes a commotion. He seeks power as a demon successor to Sparda, and plots to open the gate to the demon world with Arkham. However, Vergil is also a successor to Sparda's bloodline. Certainly, it is not the case that he desires demonic power in order to invade* the human world - his desire for power comes from a genuine feeling of wanting to become stronger. As a result he is used by Arkham, and he alone falls into the demon world, where he challenges Mundus to battle, but is defeated.

 

[Elijah Guerrero]

Dante: "Where'd you learn this stuff?"
Vergil: "Hacking? Taught myself as a kid...I guess it gave me a sense of control."
Dante: "Control...hmm. Never really had that, did we?"
Vergil: "...no."

And that's not really "reading between the lines", like you have to do with every instance of speculation when analyzing the Old Vergil...it's already been stated that both Dante and Vergil were separated and put into harsh atmospheres. This cluster of dialogue was probably an allusion to that, and serves as a suitable source of motivation for Vergil. It only makes sense...people who want control and authority are people who were never allowed to have either one.

Not to mention that it's fairly apparent from many cutscenes that Vergil thinks that he knows best...that only his way of thinking is the right one. He sees all of his hard work and collection of data as a more dire priority than Kat's safety when Mundus' forces are attacking the Order's Headquarters. He tries to assume control when Dante wants to use Lilith as a bartering tool rather than a means to stop Mundus. And when his true intentions surface at the game's ending, he's still acting like an authority figure, automatically granting himself a seat of power and lecturing Dante on how "humans need protection."

There's both motivation and character traits that support the New Vergil's pursuit of world domination. There's almost none of that for the Old Vergil. He just hates humans because the writers say so, and wants to take over the world to fulfill some replication of Sparda he's yearned for the entire game...or rather, in the last five minutes when Dante brings it up in the final confrontation. There isn't any constantly recurring character traits or narrative insight to explain why Vergil wants to dominate the world at all. He's barely a villain...he's just another lazily-written obstacle for Dante to encounter.

Wasn't new Vergil adopted into a wealthy and influential family early on? its stated in his background/story on the wiki.

 

[Elijah Guerrero]

Sooo he's psychopath bent on controlling others. It's not making strong motivation. Just that he has issues with his head. And like I already said his whole speech was pretty stupid to begin with, since it's not even remotely understandable how he intended to do it. I doubt striking few poses on rooftop helped him to achieve dominance. And I'm not even talking how transparent his intentions was from the beginning. After encounter with that one-eyed demon(forgot his name) it was clear that he's evil. Whole dialogue on rooftop just served as poor attempt at surprise discovery, which shouldn't be surprise to anyone, tbh.
That aside, where DMC3 Vergil at least once said he wanted to rule the world? Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't remember something remotely close to it was in the game.

the guy who worked on DmC made a thread on this forum earlier decribing Vergil's character in DmC and Vergils Downfall. a lot of details there and its also mentioned that the drives behind New Vergil's motivations is to make up for his feeling of inferiority when compared to Dante.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

Old Vergil's motives

http://devilmaycry.org/threads/verg...-official-book-called-trinity-of-fates.15799/

-Dante's older twin brother. In contrast to Dante, he is the type who dislikes a commotion. He seeks power as a demon successor to Sparda, and plots to open the gate to the demon world with Arkham. However, Vergil is also a successor to Sparda's bloodline. Certainly, it is not the case that he desires demonic power in order to invade* the human world - his desire for power comes from a genuine feeling of wanting to become stronger. As a result he is used by Arkham, and he alone falls into the demon world, where he challenges Mundus to battle, but is defeated.

Holy sh!t, thank you. Although that honestly kinda sucks :/ Would have been much better with one of the many theories. Even my own theory >.<

Wasn't new Vergil adopted into a wealthy and influential family early on? its stated in his background/story on the wiki.

Yeah. He was adopted into a wealthy family, had the best education, and then created a security system that helped him become independently wealthy, which he then used to fund The Order. There's that dialogue towards the end of the game you can hear where Dante and Vergil talk briefly of their childhoods, and despite their upbringing being different, they both had the same feeling of there being something more to themselves that they couldn't quite figure out; Dante drowned out those feelings through ignorance by turning to violence and immediate vices, while Vergil turned to hacking and his studies because it offered a sense of control in his life.

 

[Elijah Guerrero]

Holy sh!t, thank you. Although that honestly kinda sucks :/ Would have been much better with one of the many theories. Even my own theory >.<



Yeah. He was born into a wealthy family, had the best education, and then created a security system that helped him become independently wealthy, which he then used to fund The Order. There's that dialogue towards the end of the game you can hear where Dante and Vergil talk briefly of their childhoods, and despite their upbringing being different, they both had the same feeling of there being something more to themselves that they couldn't quite figure out; Dante drowned out those feelings through ignorance by turning to violence and immediate vices, while Vergil turned to hacking and his studies because it offered a sense of control in his life.

correction, he was Dante's brother and also a son of Sparda and Eva. after Mundus' assault and Eva's death, Sparda took the twins, wiped their memories to ensure their safety and placed them in seperate orphanages as he went off to combat Mundus. Vergil got the easy way out and was adopted by said rich family as he grew up. Whereas Dante got the short stick and was tortured and examined like a lab rat by the demons, hence their different personalities, mannerisms, attire, appearance, etc...

 

[TWOxACROSS]

Oh whoops, I have no idea why I said "born into" >.< My fingers got the best of me.

 

[Innsmouth]

The fact that it was a message directed explicitly at the demons, as someone who knows the demons were keeping people "asleep"

So...it's possible for other demon-usurping organizations to exist when the Order was, as Kat explicitly said to be, the last and only line of defense against the demons, but it's impossible for there to be surviving members of the organization in another location in any point in the world...?.

What I'm saying both are empty theories, since game never elaborates on it. And how Kat may know it? Vergil told her? Well he told her ALOT of things...To bad she believed all of them, without thinking. And even than why do you think it's not just another person like Kat who seen demons before? Or maybe he just used DmC app on his phone and saw them long before it was all over, since Tameem exists in DmC.

That's not a poor conspirator or the least be incompetent. His only mistake was in thinking he had Dante in his pocket.

You had to be utter idiot to be one step ahead of your goal and screw it up like he did. Whole games Dante says "screw it i do it my own way" and suddenly he thinks it work in the end? lol He couldn't do anything before Dante appeared. Than dante appears kills all demons and kicks his ass. Well it was very competent.

I'm not the one using headcanon based on leaps in logic and ignorance! Everything I've always been saying is from the games or Word of God from the developers! It's not my f#cking fault if a game provides no information to help back up a point!t.

No information = it's not in game. What happens in your fantasies about it is irrelevant. Some people genuinely think that Dark Knight Rises is good written film, while it poor stitched mess. So yes, it's your fault to provide speculated information and trying to decorate it as a fact.
First you say there where other buildings, than you say that if there weren't any it doesn't mean there weren't supposed to be any. You contradict yourself on every step. You really either talk about what you think happened or about what actually happened in the game. But there should be line between speculations and established facts.

You can't split that up! He wants to rule them because the humans are idiots and he doesn't want them f#cking up the world or themselves. He explicitly talks about the chaos humans would cause if they weren't kept in check and protected from themselves. Vergil wants to rule over them because he doesn't want to simply live in a world that slowly immolates itself because of the humans he hates are running around unsupervised.

where did he said he hates humans? That aside he don't interested in protecting them. He only wish to rule them. He may as well exterminate them all after gaining throne. He isn't doing it to protect anyone.

It's not unconfirmed, I just can't be assed to go and sift through four entire years of content for you to simply ignore or endlessly dispute it. The Hunter pushing the ferris wheel was done from Limbo, with an effect that carried over into the real world.

Then of course, there's still the fact that the demons, despite how hearty they may be, can be easily killed by conventional weapons, and now you have entire militaries that can lay waste to whatever demonic threat arises. That's why the demons needed Limbo, it gave them strength and security against their enemies.

That's honestly makes very little sense, though I haven't read anything like that anywhere, so I still can't really consider it confirmed. The only thing that MAY confirm it was how Vergil killed Lilith...but than again it's not understandable, why he didn't killed them all in real world, since most of higher up existed in real world also

 

[TWOxACROSS]

What I'm saying both are empty theories, since game never elaborates on it. And how Kat may know it? Vergil told her? Well he told her ALOT of things...To bad she believed all of them, without thinking. And even than why do you think it's not just another person like Kat who seen demons before? Or maybe he just used DmC app on his phone and saw them long before it was all over, since Tameem exists in DmC.

I'm so sick of your strawman bullsh!t, dude.

You had to be utter idiot to be one step ahead of your goal and screw it up like he did. Whole games Dante says "screw it i do it my own way" and suddenly he thinks it work in the end? lol He couldn't do anything before Dante appeared. Than dante appears kills all demons and kicks his ass. Well it was very competent.

Correction, Vergil totally could have done it on his own, he's more than capable, but he didn't want to, because that puts the spotlight directly on himself. He wanted to bring his own flesh and blood brother in on things, and since Dante is already so well-known as a troublemaker to the demons and loves to fight them, it works out to make him The Order's frontline muscle. Everything was going according to plan, but then Vergil got a little sentimental for his own brother, which is honestly an interesting flaw to his character, considering he acknowledged it would be a problem in the comic book, and then let get to him with Dante, despite how Vergil was consistently able to con him into things because of their familial and racial bonds.

He made a mistake which causes his plans to unravel at the last moment, but that does not in any way mean he is bad at what he does. His mistake in the end does not in any way devalue all of the clever scheming and subterfuge he put into making his plan work for however many years it had been since he found out the truth.

No information = it's not in game. What happens in your fantasies about it is irrelevant. Some people genuinely think that Dark Knight Rises is good written film, while it poor stitched mess. So yes, it's your fault to provide speculated information and trying to decorate it as a fact.
First you say there where other buildings, than you say that if there weren't any it doesn't mean there weren't supposed to be any. You contradict yourself on every step. You really either talk about what you think happened or about what actually happened in the game. But there should be line between speculations and established facts.

It is so goddamn incredible that you're lecturing me on this when I never threw in something that wasn't backed up by the games or the devs. Everything I've said has a clear backing, but you have systematically ignored, or endlessly disputed with strawman bullsh!t, everything that's presented to you. I'm sorry I can't provide you with two small bits of info lost in the internet to corroborate what I said, but the inability, or lack of effort to find them on my part, to find those two bits of info does not negate every other point of made which is in the game.

And when I said it not being my fault the game doesn't provide information, I was talking about DMC3, and how it provides no information for us with which to come to solid conclusions about Vergil, and all that's left is theory and headcanon.

where did he said he hates humans? That aside he don't interested in protecting them. He only wish to rule them. He may as well exterminate them all after gaining throne. He isn't doing it to protect anyone.

How do you just ignore when he says "they need to be protected" and "we're the ones to do it"? Like I said before, he doesn't care about humans individually, only in how they can help him. They are to be his subjects, a mass of idiots that he gets to rule over and keep from causing chaos.

I can't keep f#cking going over this dude. You keep trying to split hairs.

That's honestly makes very little sense, though I haven't read anything like that anywhere, so I still can't really consider it confirmed. The only thing that MAY confirm it was how Vergil killed Lilith...but than again it's not understandable, why he didn't killed them all in real world, since most of higher up existed in real world also

It's a bit difficult to kill them all in the real world because as soon as they see a threat they pull it into Limbo, where they are stronger and much more protected; that's exactly what Lilith did, and after being taken from Limbo, she was as weak as any normal person, as all the skin suit-wearing demons are, aside from Mundus because of the Hell Gate.

Poison (the Succubus) could only be accessed from Limbo, Dante arrived at Barbas' tower from Limbo and therefore had to fight him there before he could get out, and Mundus was immortal via the Hellgate so killing his human vessel would accomplish nothing.

 

[EllDawn]

What I'm saying both are empty theories, since game never elaborates on it. And how Kat may know it? Vergil told her? Well he told her ALOT of things...To bad she believed all of them, without thinking. And even than why do you think it's not just another person like Kat who seen demons before? Or maybe he just used DmC app on his phone and saw them long before it was all over, since Tameem exists in DmC.



You had to be utter idiot to be one step ahead of your goal and screw it up like he did. Whole games Dante says "screw it i do it my own way" and suddenly he thinks it work in the end? lol He couldn't do anything before Dante appeared. Than dante appears kills all demons and kicks his ass. Well it was very competent.



No information = it's not in game. What happens in your fantasies about it is irrelevant. Some people genuinely think that Dark Knight Rises is good written film, while it poor stitched mess. So yes, it's your fault to provide speculated information and trying to decorate it as a fact.
First you say there where other buildings, than you say that if there weren't any it doesn't mean there weren't supposed to be any. You contradict yourself on every step. You really either talk about what you think happened or about what actually happened in the game. But there should be line between speculations and established facts.



where did he said he hates humans? That aside he don't interested in protecting them. He only wish to rule them. He may as well exterminate them all after gaining throne. He isn't doing it to protect anyone.




That's honestly makes very little sense, though I haven't read anything like that anywhere, so I still can't really consider it confirmed. The only thing that MAY confirm it was how Vergil killed Lilith...but than again it's not understandable, why he didn't killed them all in real world, since most of higher up existed in real world also

You sound like you want the game to spell out every single thing. How about, instead of starting fights with other members on the forum, you play through the game again and listen to how the characters speak. The tones they use can be very helpful in figuring out what they're thinking. For example, you can hear the disgust that Vergil has for humans when he says they're weak and need to be controlled. It's not said straight out, but you hear it in his voice. This is not head-canon, it's how the characters are portrayed by the actors. It's what they were conveying. If you need a specific line that has the information you're looking for, you're not going to get the whole story.

Don't reply to this because I'm not going to answer. I'm just sick of this whole thing about people needing the obvious instead of trying to read the characters themselves. Trust me, you'll gain something from it.

 

[LordOfDarkness]

Really you have to look at DMC as a whole. Everyone states plot holes or the time line as being problems. Most people take dialogue and character emotion and base their points around it. You have to overlook the inconsistencies. In the nicest possible way, for the most part all we have to go on are our own theories.

Devil May Cry has never really given us full proof facts. We have to understand that everyone has the right to further interpret story elements as not everything is or will be fully explained.

 

[Innsmouth]

Really you have to look at DMC as a whole. Everyone states plot holes or the time line as being problems. Most people take dialogue and character emotion and base their points around it. You have to overlook the inconsistencies. In the nicest possible way, for the most part all we have to go on are our own theories.

Devil May Cry has never really given us full proof facts. We have to understand that everyone has the right to further interpret story elements as not everything is or will be fully explained.

You are absolutely correct, and I'm not denying anyone right to interpret stuff. Problem is when interpretation about older game it's deemed nonsense, etc, but when inconsistencies appear around new game, some people prefer to act like their theories are foolproof facts, which they don't. My problem with it, that some people acknowledge only last game while condemning rest into depth of hell as unbearable mess. And while somebody can acknowledge inconsistencies it doesn't mean they don't exist.

 

[Innsmouth]

It is so goddamn incredible that you're lecturing me on this when I never threw in something that wasn't backed up by the games or the devs. Everything I've said has a clear backing, but you have systematically ignored, or endlessly disputed with strawman bullsh!t, everything that's presented to you. I'm sorry I can't provide you with two small bits of info lost in the internet to corroborate what I said, but the inability, or lack of effort to find them on my part, to find those two bits of info does not negate every other point of made which is in the game.

And when I said it not being my fault the game doesn't provide information, I was talking about DMC3, and how it provides no information for us with which to come to solid conclusions about Vergil, and all that's left is theory and headcanon.

To put a conclusion, you're doing it all the time. Everything you said, is based on assumption, reading between lines, stuff that wasn't remotely shown in the game and conveniently missing pieces of interviews that somehow nowhere to be seen. Yet you continue to bash people who using their understanding of plots in regards of original franchise. After you condemned DMC3 writing on every possible page where somebody praises it using missing clear info on characters, you just turn your back on same problems with new one. And does it time after time. It's just inconsistent and ricks of double standards. That's all.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

To put a conclusion, you're doing it all the time. Everything you said, is based on assumption,

No. It's. Not. The only things that I have ever said that aren't backed up by what's in the games are the two things that I can't be assed to dig through the four years of content floating around internet to find. None of what I have said is some assumption on may part.

Yet you continue to bash people who using their understanding of plots in regards of original franchise.

I have bashed no one. I'd resent the implication if I actually gave a sh!t. All my contention is from seeing contradictions between what people say and what information there is.

After you condemned DMC3 writing on every possible page where somebody praises it using missing clear info on characters, you just turn your back on same problems with new one. And does it time after time. It's just inconsistent and ricks of double standards. That's all.

There's no double standard here other than the ones you constantly try to pull. Everything that I've ever discussed has had to do with information (or the lack thereof), and how peoples' theories might be contradicted by what we do know. I never tossed up some theory of my own, only stuff the games or devs provided, or that they didn't.

My biggest point of contention with DMC3 is and always will be the vast amount of headcanon that people try to pass off as fact for Vergil, when the game either contradicts or does absolutely nothing to support it over many other variations of headcanon. Interpretation is fine, but it cannot and should not be passed off as fact.

So...do you just think that I have it out for the classics and blindly defend DmC to the death or something? Because I certainly don't, I just have no qualms with criticizing lacking elements in any of the games, and I have witnessed DmC get the short end of the stick way too often, with willful ignorance abound in order to validate criticism.

And that's it. I'm f#ckin' done.

 

[Demi-fiend]

So...do you just think that I have it out for the classics and blindly defend DmC to the death or something?

Just the opposite, actually. They're the ones who blindly defend the classics (ignoring almost all of its blatant flaws) to the death whilst overly criticizing DmC itself at the same time. As for me, I really do have valid criticism for both series.

I'm also done here.

 

[Innsmouth]

I have yet to see person who says that classics don't have flaws. Though I have already seen more than one person who defend DmC to the death while refusing to admit a single flaw in it.

 

[Demi-fiend]

Don't respond to this, Final Mark.

 

[DragonMaster2010]

I have yet to see person who says that classics don't have flaws. Though I have already seen more than one person who defend DmC to the death while refusing to admit a single flaw in it.

Fine. To make you feel better about yourself;

-new Vergil is a psychopath in sheep's clothing which makes it obvious.

-new Vergil has an overly-pretentious way of dressing himself that makes him obvious to being a bad guy.

-the way he hides can be often strange since he tries hard to not let Mundus see him, yet he walks outside with Dante and Kat a few times and shows himself during the trade.

-Vergil's way of thinking is stereotypical to the textbook bad guy of those "more money, more problems" situations.

-new Vergil is a jealous child in the end. He was pretty much jealous of Dante all his life and that's one of the reasons he didn't rescue Dante right away. A slight sadistic hate for him.

-new Vergil was a dictator just like everyone knew he'd be.

There.