Blue_Rose
One way to get yourself shot
I'll make a Vergil parody of that poem if you want. Lol just kidding.
New Vergil or Devil May Cry 3 Vergil?
- Thread starter Vergillicious
- Start date
Director Bison
King of Games
Loopy
Devil hunter in training
That's just reminded me of that disturbing Shrek video, also called 'Shrek is love, Shrek is life' :vomit:
mrrandomlulz
Monsuuuta moonssuta mo mo mo mo monsuuta
Said video based on a thread on 4chan
They've made ****ing Heisenburg versions on there
DragonMaster2010
Don't Let the Fall of America be Your Fall
I was only 9 years old...
DarkSlayerZero
DMC1 Dante>>>>>>2-4
DmC Vergil for me unlike 3's version, his personality didn't boil down simply to just five words "Powah!" He truly believed that he was doing the correct thing. When it comes to combat 3 wins that round. I do like the brotherly thing that they had going on when they were inside Mundus' lair, it was actually normal. We haven't had that since the novel.
1. All versions of him have used a gun. 3's Vergil used Ebony, Gilver f*cked Dante up with a shotgun, DmC used a rifle.
2. I could've sworn that bad guys did things like that.
1. All versions of him have used a gun. 3's Vergil used Ebony, Gilver f*cked Dante up with a shotgun, DmC used a rifle.
2. I could've sworn that bad guys did things like that.
Blue_Rose
One way to get yourself shot
Well the Gilver/Redgrave events are noncanon since DMC3 contradicts it. And he used Ebony to kill Arkham which actually served a purpose. (and made for a rather badass "Jackpot")
DarkSlayerZero
DMC1 Dante>>>>>>2-4
Still doesn't change the fact that he's used guns before.
Elijah Guerrero
Well-known Member
your avatar pic reminded me of the DmC/Kill La Kill crossover idea i suggested in that one thread. imagine the reactions Dante and Vergil would have when Ryuko and Satsuki activate their powers (and gain those infamous battle outfits).
WolfOD64
That Guy Who Hates Fox McCloud
One of the problems I’ve always had about Devil May Cry’s story, especially when it comes to its characters, is that it always bars itself into a cage of rigid, predictable, and unintuitive anime clichés…so much so, that it doesn’t leave any room for anything interesting or surprising. And Vergil fell victim to this more than anyone. The writers were so fixed to make him “Dante’s Evil Twin”, that it literally consumed his role as a character, and never gave him any room to develop on his own. His appearance, his way of speaking, his fighting style, even his pursuit as a villain---were all shamelessly gimmicked towards being the opposite of what Dante would do. Only when Vergil decides to aid Dante when confronting Mundus does he actually do anything outside of his telegraphed character gimmick…and even then, it’s so late in the game to be even the slightest bit interesting. We already had to sit through an entire 2-3 hours of insufferable brooding and stereotypical monologues of obtaining world domination….and what motivation does he have behind taking over the world? None. Absolutely none.
What makes a good villain to me, on just about any scale of fiction or mythos, isn’t how you sympathize or relate to them, but understanding their motivations. It’s not so much who they cut down or who they betray, but why they do it. And the Old Vergil lacked to an almost insufferable degree. Not once are we, as the audience, given any clear insight on why Vergil acts the way he does. You can literally sum up his motivation as a character in a line he says in the actual game: “I. NEED. MORE. POWER.” It’s the most generic drive behind a villain imaginable…and we’re never even told why. And before the Head-Canon brigade kicks down the door and brings up the “Might controls everything” line to allude to some fictitious motivation regarding Vergil’s mother, just take into account what he’s doing over the course of the game: He’s prepared to undo his father’s efforts to keep the hellgate closed, he’s desecrating his mother’s amulet to incite the ritual for selfish gain, and is even prepared to murder his own brother in cold blood in order to get what he wants. Yeah, somehow I don’t think he’s enough of a compassionate person to really care about his mother, given how well he treats the rest of his family. Besides, with how much he revels in his demon heritage and despises his human heritage, why would he give two flying ****s about his human mother?
And that’s where the New Vergil succeeds. He’s made to be Dante’s opposite in the simplest of means. Vergil fights and handles things differently from Dante---even when they first meet, Dante states that he prefers using swords and bullets to take down demons, whereas Vergil promptly replies that “such weapons can win battles, but not the war.” He uses stealth, politics, propaganda, computer interception, and covert identities throughout the game…in juxtapose to Dante’s straight-forward combat and reckless confrontations with bosses. He’s also a lot more cold and calculating than Dante, willing to go to extremely dispassionate measures to ensure personal victory…as seen when he tells Dante to abandon Kat in the crumbling remnants of the Order’s Headquarters, and the harsh action he takes during Lilith’s trade. And best of all, we’re given insight on what he wants from the moment we see him---the way he talks, his mannerisms, his waning patience at Dante’s lack of motivation---he comes off as a kind of idealist, a conqueror envisioning his own utopia with his own subjects, but making it sound nice with honeyed words and an authoritative tone of voice, like a parent sounding worried about their children. In fact, that’s what arguably makes Vergil scarier as a villain. He’s proposing something so horrible as human enslavement, but he makes it sound so rational and ideal. We’re given insight on why he wants control…simply because he didn’t have it as an abused child at the hands of the demons.
Most of Old Vergil’s “opposite qualities” from Dante were merely aesthetic and visual---different hairstyle, different color scheme to his coat, different type of sword---but that was it. He’s supposed to be the calm and composed brother, and yet he’s just as arrogant and fights just as flashily as the brother he’s so opposed to acting like.
And it’s not like the New Vergil is so deep and thought-provoking of a character that makes him superior. In the end, most of his motivations are pretty basic and ideological for someone like him. Most leaders in history fought to achieve the kind of world he wants. In fact, most of what he wants to do with the world seems almost understandable in the way he verbalizes it to Kat and Dante. Sure, his methods of reaching said goal are more than questionable (and that’s where he starts leaning towards the unsavory dictators of history rather than the ideal ones), but at least they’re clearly outlined and given.
What he really has as a character are basic and almost obligatory by today’s narrative standard…and it’s exactly what the Old Vergil always lacked. New Vergil doesn’t really win because he’s infinitely better, it’s just because Old Vergil was so lacking. It says more about the old version’s weakness than the new one’s strength.
What makes a good villain to me, on just about any scale of fiction or mythos, isn’t how you sympathize or relate to them, but understanding their motivations. It’s not so much who they cut down or who they betray, but why they do it. And the Old Vergil lacked to an almost insufferable degree. Not once are we, as the audience, given any clear insight on why Vergil acts the way he does. You can literally sum up his motivation as a character in a line he says in the actual game: “I. NEED. MORE. POWER.” It’s the most generic drive behind a villain imaginable…and we’re never even told why. And before the Head-Canon brigade kicks down the door and brings up the “Might controls everything” line to allude to some fictitious motivation regarding Vergil’s mother, just take into account what he’s doing over the course of the game: He’s prepared to undo his father’s efforts to keep the hellgate closed, he’s desecrating his mother’s amulet to incite the ritual for selfish gain, and is even prepared to murder his own brother in cold blood in order to get what he wants. Yeah, somehow I don’t think he’s enough of a compassionate person to really care about his mother, given how well he treats the rest of his family. Besides, with how much he revels in his demon heritage and despises his human heritage, why would he give two flying ****s about his human mother?
And that’s where the New Vergil succeeds. He’s made to be Dante’s opposite in the simplest of means. Vergil fights and handles things differently from Dante---even when they first meet, Dante states that he prefers using swords and bullets to take down demons, whereas Vergil promptly replies that “such weapons can win battles, but not the war.” He uses stealth, politics, propaganda, computer interception, and covert identities throughout the game…in juxtapose to Dante’s straight-forward combat and reckless confrontations with bosses. He’s also a lot more cold and calculating than Dante, willing to go to extremely dispassionate measures to ensure personal victory…as seen when he tells Dante to abandon Kat in the crumbling remnants of the Order’s Headquarters, and the harsh action he takes during Lilith’s trade. And best of all, we’re given insight on what he wants from the moment we see him---the way he talks, his mannerisms, his waning patience at Dante’s lack of motivation---he comes off as a kind of idealist, a conqueror envisioning his own utopia with his own subjects, but making it sound nice with honeyed words and an authoritative tone of voice, like a parent sounding worried about their children. In fact, that’s what arguably makes Vergil scarier as a villain. He’s proposing something so horrible as human enslavement, but he makes it sound so rational and ideal. We’re given insight on why he wants control…simply because he didn’t have it as an abused child at the hands of the demons.
Most of Old Vergil’s “opposite qualities” from Dante were merely aesthetic and visual---different hairstyle, different color scheme to his coat, different type of sword---but that was it. He’s supposed to be the calm and composed brother, and yet he’s just as arrogant and fights just as flashily as the brother he’s so opposed to acting like.
And it’s not like the New Vergil is so deep and thought-provoking of a character that makes him superior. In the end, most of his motivations are pretty basic and ideological for someone like him. Most leaders in history fought to achieve the kind of world he wants. In fact, most of what he wants to do with the world seems almost understandable in the way he verbalizes it to Kat and Dante. Sure, his methods of reaching said goal are more than questionable (and that’s where he starts leaning towards the unsavory dictators of history rather than the ideal ones), but at least they’re clearly outlined and given.
What he really has as a character are basic and almost obligatory by today’s narrative standard…and it’s exactly what the Old Vergil always lacked. New Vergil doesn’t really win because he’s infinitely better, it’s just because Old Vergil was so lacking. It says more about the old version’s weakness than the new one’s strength.
Lord Nero
Ultraviolet Sentinel
1 I don't think it's so clear-cut. Vergil was never intended to be evil, so him being his 'evil twin' is simply not true. He wanted to rule over the demon world, and he tried to emulate Sparda... but evil? No. He kills bloodthirsty demons, so that makes him as evil as Dante... which is to say... not evil at all.
2 True... well let me split hairs a minute. Vergil sometimes lets himself go like Dante. Some of his attacks are the same as Dante's. The cut scene with Arkham shows him saying ''I'll try it your way for once''. Him being a villain? Don't agree.
3 ?? He never aided Dante against Mundus. He helped against Arkham, if that's what you mean.
4 Pretty sure Vergil never said that. Arkham did, I guess. Pay more attention to the cut scenes.
5 That's an assumption. Just because Vergil did not outright state his reasons doesn't mean he did not have any. He also clearly said that ''without power, you cannot protect anyone, let alone yourself''. This implies he has something to protect (now or in the future). It could also mean he's traumatized from the death of his mother and wants to create a 'fairer' world. A bit of reading between the lines can get you a lot farther than just denying he has any reasons.
6 He only says that when people are around... so I'm not sure that's his real motivation. And even if it were, it's a perfectly acceptable one. ''Never told why?'' Have you even watched all the cutscenes? One of DMC's themes is that demons obsess over power while humanity (or Dante) gains more power because he doesn't obsess over it. Disliking that theme does not make it less valuable.
7 Yes... well, when you think about it, doesn't that mean what he's doing might be a good thing? I'm guessing that... he wants to close the gate so demons can't hurt humans anymore. He's probably doing this out of a misplaced sense of respect for his family. He doesn't want anyone to go through what he went through as a child. Just because he doesn't literally say ''I don't want demons to hurt anyone anymore... you see I'm traumatized blablah'' doesn't mean he 'has no motivation'. I'm glad he didn't outright say it and start a sob-story about it. Let DmC handle unnecessary obviousness. No offense intended! I like DmC!
8 Don't remember him implying that. Sure, he fights Dante seriously, but if he wanted to kill him he would have. Seriously, he lets Dante get away multiple times, even in the beginning (when Dante had no devil trigger). He could have cut off his head... only he didn't. In fact, he allowed Dante to Devil Trigger. So you still think he intended to kill Dante? I think he wanted to demoralize him and keep him off his back. Even the final battle mightn't have been to the death. We don't know. All we know is that he wanted Dante's piece of the amulet, and I doubt he needed to kill him for it.
9 There is no indication that he despises his human heritage. He never talks about it. Yes, he wants power, and to be as demonic as possible because he thinks demon stuff gives him power. But does he want to relinquish his human side? No indication of that. Again, he probably wants to be more like pops, since he has an entire library on Sparda remember? He keeps reading up on his legacy, so obviously he respects Sparda's 'human' side too. The emotional side of him that protected humanity.
I think both Vergils have positives and negatives. That said, I like old Vergil more. He has more honor, and like others have said, new Vergil seems slimy somehow. New Vergil makes Dante believe one thing, and ends up doing the other. Also, New Vergil doesn't even try to pronounce Yamato correctly, LOL. Also seems kind of hipsterish.
You say old Vergil has no motivation, but when I think about it, what is new Vergil's? He just always wanted to rule Limbo? I mean, doesn't he have the same motivation as old Vergil, basically? So... dafaq we talking about? XD
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Lord Nero
Ultraviolet Sentinel
Who says old Vergil didn't believe he was doing the right thing? I guess people can have different interpretations of one character, just like people sometimes have different interpretations of conversations. To some people, a conversation may have seemed positive, to others it seemed negative or neutral... think job interviews and reviews of your job results. Same goes for characters.
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TWOxACROSS
Hot-blooded God of Guns
It's as much an assumption as pretty much everything else about his character, unfortunately.
Therein lies the problem, because he never states his reasons. The game tells us he's hungry for power, and then...nothing. No motivations for it, just..."gotta get power".
That is something he says to Dante, the guy who has made it his life to hunt down demons and help people. Vergil was extolling the virtue of the power he covets while mocking Dante's own motivations in life. Everything else you said is conjecture, which is the gigantic problem with Vergil - so much of him is left unsaid that there's only a few solid facts about him.
Whether he only says it around others is irrelevant. If we as the audience aren't presented with things to solidly associate with his motivation, it's difficult to ascertain what his motivation is. If his motivation for getting more power is simply "he's a demon", then holy sh!t that just makes it worse.
What makes that a hard pill to swallow is that Vergil jeopardized humanity more by raising Temen-ni-gru and releasing demons all over the city, all so he could open a portal to the underworld (objectively allowing more demons out) so that he could get the power that Sparda had a damn good reason to lock away in the first place.
The problem is that we need to hear that motivation. It doesn't need to be spelled out obviously, and there are plenty of ways to divulge that information to the audience without an obvious and out-of-place blurt out, but the fact is we didn't get anything at all. The game actually seems to pick up halfway through the brother's quarrel, as if Dante and Vergil have already started down on their separate paths, as if they had already had it out once explaining why they felt the way they did, and what their motivations were. So it's like we picked up the story in the middle, and they're done explaining why Vergil feels the way he does, and we're just left going "Wait...why?"
He straight up tried to murder Dante by impalement in their first encounter. Vergil was surprised that Dante survived, thanks to his Devil Trigger it would seem. They were ready to leave him there to bleed to death, and then upon their second encounter, Vergil mutters that he'll just bleed Dante dry to get the mechanism to work.
Vergil didn't have an entire library on Sparda O_______o He was just in one where he met Arkham. Anyway, it's a very real possibility that Vergil doesn't care at all about Sparda's human side either. He constantly hears about how his father was really powerful, and that's the only part he ever seems to care about. Like Wolf said, Vergil even goes out of his way to undo what Sparda did to protect humanity - shutting the demons off from the human realm.
I'll question this till the day I die, because everything that he does in DMC3 shows that he has no respect for anyone, kills people (sometimes when they are defenseless) whenever they are useless or in his way, and doesn't show any care for anyone but himself. Well, and some slight begrudging care for Dante at the end when he falls off the waterfall, but even that was after he tried to kill Dante for a third time >.<
The only respect Vergil ever shows is to the idea of a fair fight; he doesn't like guns because they don't require the fortitude or strength as anything else, and therefore sully the idea of two people engaging in a battle of pure ability. That love of a fair fight even plays into his ideals for power, since a pure and unadulterated battle is a show if ones' power.
Then again, despite liking fair fights, he still kills people who are defenseless, so even he is willing to compromise that belief to suit his own agenda. He even used a gun because it would serve to get rid of a roadblock ahead of his goal.
DmC Vergil's motivation was to get revenge on Mundus for ruining his family, and usurp the demon king's position as ruler of the Earth, because he felt that human's were weak little children that needed protecting, and the only ones fit to rule them was the nephilim. That is something we explicitly know because the narratives tells us as we continue through it.
Chancey289
Fake Geek Girl.
And DMC 3 contradicts the first game.
Does the gun thing really matter? Just because Vergil in DMC 3 had a hard on for swords that doesn't mean he was honorable. Like what Two described earlier. He would use people as just means to an end and kill them once they did what he wanted them to do. That last thing Vergil ever was was honorable or respectable.
Chancey289
Fake Geek Girl.
DMC Vergil was just the calm and collected power hungry villain stereotype and is really not all that. All the things people say about him that put him in a better light are for the most part just made up head canon. That doesn't mean it's true.
DmC improved Vergil for me because I never cared all that much for the guy. I didn't mind seeing him even if he did dress like he was trying to hard for a good OK Cupid profile pic.
Vergil met Kat and was like, "hello m'lady."
DmC improved Vergil for me because I never cared all that much for the guy. I didn't mind seeing him even if he did dress like he was trying to hard for a good OK Cupid profile pic.
Vergil met Kat and was like, "hello m'lady."
Chancey289
Fake Geek Girl.
Well said. Bravo.
DragonMaster2010
Don't Let the Fall of America be Your Fall
To add something, would a person with honor use the corpse of a defeated enemy as a punching bag to try out a new weapon?
DMC Vergil had no honor. Was he an asshole, yes.
DMC Vergil had no honor. Was he an asshole, yes.
WolfOD64
That Guy Who Hates Fox McCloud
I’d respond to each and every counter-argument, but it would seem that Mr. xACROSS has literally gone out of his way to verbalize every single thing I would say as a response. The man is truly worthy of the title: “Hot-blooded God of Guns.” Even on a keyboard, he has a frighteningly blazing trigger-finger.
But I do have ONE thing still lingering in my mind…
So…let me see if I understand this. New Vergil mispronouncing Yamato is not only a fault of the character---not the voice actor, the CHARACTER---but it’s also considered hipster.
If anything, Old Vergil was the hipster. He was dishonorable and wielding firearms before it was cool.
No, man…I believe you deserve a bravo and a cold Skotch for the following:
Thank you. Just…thank you.
Someone finally said it.
Forget punching...the dude literally river-danced on his fresh corpse without a moment's hesitation. The kicks, the jabs....I wouldn't be surprised if he just straight-up teabagged poor Beowulf next.
In fact, just for kicks, I really wish someone would edit that scene and just have Dante's dialogue from his obtaining of Lucifer. Just imagine Vergil kicking around Beowulf, while simultaneously yelling: "First I whip it out, then I thrust it...with GREAT FORCE!"
My sides would reduce to ashes. That honor...
But I do have ONE thing still lingering in my mind…
So…let me see if I understand this. New Vergil mispronouncing Yamato is not only a fault of the character---not the voice actor, the CHARACTER---but it’s also considered hipster.
If anything, Old Vergil was the hipster. He was dishonorable and wielding firearms before it was cool.
No, man…I believe you deserve a bravo and a cold Skotch for the following:
Thank you. Just…thank you.
Someone finally said it.
Forget punching...the dude literally river-danced on his fresh corpse without a moment's hesitation. The kicks, the jabs....I wouldn't be surprised if he just straight-up teabagged poor Beowulf next.
In fact, just for kicks, I really wish someone would edit that scene and just have Dante's dialogue from his obtaining of Lucifer. Just imagine Vergil kicking around Beowulf, while simultaneously yelling: "First I whip it out, then I thrust it...with GREAT FORCE!"
My sides would reduce to ashes. That honor...
DarkSlayerZero
DMC1 Dante>>>>>>2-4
TWOxACROSS
Hot-blooded God of Guns
Gilver was pretty sadistic, and he had a lot of fun using the shotgun.
Granted, the DMC1 novel really only fits in with the "Kamiya canon"
Granted, the DMC1 novel really only fits in with the "Kamiya canon"