New Vergil or Devil May Cry 3 Vergil?

[Innsmouth]

It's pretty funny that people still think whole motivation of DmC's Vergil makes any sense. People keep complaining about whole "POWER" thing, while completely ignore that whole motivation of Vergil form DmC isn't better than "I WILL RULE THE WORLD". That's without mentioning the fact of how stupid it was to even start talking to dante and kat about it in the first place.
And as for how he was going to achieve it, at least in DMC3 Vergil had means to achieve his goals. In DmC Vergil lacked them. He couldn't even rule the world, because he has nothing left in the end. He lost all of his men, his whole base of operation, he kept database on Mundus network (but in the end it was useless since network ceased to exist when hell-gate opened). Well unless people actually think somebody can take the world with one laptop, his motivation and goals are barely hold together and serve only as poor excuse to fight him as the final boss.

 

[Lord Nero]

1 It's as much an assumption as pretty much everything else about his character, unfortunately. Therein lies the problem, because he never states his reasons. The game tells us he's hungry for power, and then...nothing. No motivations for it, just..."gotta get power". Everything else you said is conjecture, which is the gigantic problem with Vergil - so much of him is left unsaid that there's only a few solid facts about him.

2 Whether he only says it around others is irrelevant. If we as the audience aren't presented with things to solidly associate with his motivation, it's difficult to ascertain what his motivation is. If his motivation for getting more power is simply "he's a demon", then holy sh!t that just makes it worse.

3 What makes that a hard pill to swallow is that Vergil jeopardized humanity more by raising Temen-ni-gru and releasing demons all over the city, all so he could open a portal to the underworld (objectively allowing more demons out) so that he could get the power that Sparda had a damn good reason to lock away in the first place.

4 The problem is that we need to hear that motivation. It doesn't need to be spelled out obviously, and there are plenty of ways to divulge that information to the audience without an obvious and out-of-place blurt out, but the fact is we didn't get anything at all. The game actually seems to pick up halfway through the brother's quarrel, as if Dante and Vergil have already started down on their separate paths, as if they had already had it out once explaining why they felt the way they did, and what their motivations were. So it's like we picked up the story in the middle, and they're done explaining why Vergil feels the way he does, and we're just left going "Wait...why?"

5 He straight up tried to murder Dante by impalement in their first encounter. Vergil was surprised that Dante survived, thanks to his Devil Trigger it would seem. They were ready to leave him there to bleed to death, and then upon their second encounter, Vergil mutters that he'll just bleed Dante dry to get the mechanism to work.

6 Vergil didn't have an entire library on Sparda O_______o He was just in one where he met Arkham. Anyway, it's a very real possibility that Vergil doesn't care at all about Sparda's human side either. He constantly hears about how his father was really powerful, and that's the only part he ever seems to care about.

7 I'll question this till the day I die, because everything that he does in DMC3 shows that he has no respect for anyone, kills people (sometimes when they are defenseless) whenever they are useless or in his way, and doesn't show any care for anyone but himself.

DmC Vergil's motivation was to get revenge on Mundus for ruining his family, and usurp the demon king's position as ruler of the Earth, because he felt that human's were weak little children that needed protecting, and the only ones fit to rule them was the nephilim. That is something we explicitly know because the narratives tells us as we continue through it.

1 I know, I'm just saying that I think a lot can be said for characters that don't announce their reasons to the player. I'm sure there have been plenty of bad guys in video games who never explained their reasons for doing something, we just accept that they must have some reason. TBH, I'm fine with Vergil not explaining everything. He has some issues, and his motivation seems basically the same as new Vergil's... so... I'm saying there's no reason to bash old Vergil just because he doesn't make his motivations clear. Even if his only motivation were to obtain power, that's fine with me. It's no worse a motivation than wanting to rule over humanity. Pretty sure new Vergil doesn't explain why he wants to either. Only that 'humans are weak and need protection'. Cool story, bruh.

2 Seems logical Vergil wants to rule over the demon world. Doesn't it seem logical to you that since he reads up on Sparda's legacy and says he wants Sparda's power.. he probably wants to emulate Sparda? ''Why do you refuse the power of our father'' he says, while Dante feels that Sparda being his father is irrelevant.
The game never said that his only motivation for getting power or closing the hell gate is 'because he's a demon', so you're making assumptions too.

3 Well that's conjecture too. Just because a few demons got out into the human world does not mean the entire human world is in jeopardy. In DMC3, there's some areas of the city that were damaged and abandoned, yes... but there is no indication that the entire human world (or even the city) is flooded with demons.
Also, as far as I know, Sparda's power was locked away because he can't be a fullblood demon and human at the same time in the human world. He sacrificed (much of) his demon side to live with Eva. Now that he's dead, Vergil finds there is no reason to keep it sealed. In the end the gate is sealed again. Vergil doesn't care though because he just wants to stay in the demon world at that point.

4 I understand completely, and yes I wish Vergil and Dante had an actual deep backstory, but I can't rate new Vergil above old Vergil only because his backstory is more defined. I can't say that new Vergil is a better character just because of his explained backstory. That's just not enough for me. I simply like old Vergil better because the rest of his character is enjoyable. I like that he's a cold, brooding character who doesn't talk much and goes for his goals head-on. I like his way of talking, his (almost nonexistent) body language, his combos... everything besides his backstory.

5 He never said he was surprised Dante survived. He said ''I see a demon has awoken in you as well''. That does indicate he did not know Dante didn't have a DT yet, but it says nothing about him wanting Dante dead. He impaled him, yes... but Vergil knows you can't kill a son of Sparda by impaling him. They regenerate like crazy, remember? Dante gets impaled again in DMC1. And again in DMC4. If he wanted to kill Dante, he would've cut his head off. Plain and simple.

6 As he and Arkham talked, he was holding a book detailing Sparda's legacy. It's quite possible that that whole library (or large parts of it) was dedicated to Sparda. In any case, he was reading up on Sparda, and it's clear he wants to emulate him. He basically says it himself.

7 Pretty sure he doesn't kill anyone in DMC3 without a good reason. Could've killed Lady. Did he? No. He tries to kill Arkham because he knows his demonic side has taken over. That much became clear when Arkham grasped Vergil's Katana by the blade. The part about him not caring about anyone but himself is again you jumping to conclusions.

8 So he has the same reasons. Revenge, sure, old Vergil no doubt wants that too. Mundus is also the ruler of the demon world in DMC3 really... so I don't doubt that Vergil's plan was to open the hell gate to find Mundus and kill him. He even tried to kill him at the end of DMC3, so yeah. He could've joined Mundus, but he wanted revenge... just like new Vergil. Considering it's probable that old Vergil wants to rule the demon world in Mundus's place, that's the same as in DmC. The only difference is, like you said, new Vergil clearly states his reasons while old Vergil keeps it a slight mystery. But considering old Vergil wants 'power', he will kill Mundus. Ruling over the demon world is 'power' too.

 

[Lord Nero]

It's pretty funny that people still think whole motivation of DmC's Vergil makes any sense. People keep complaining about whole "POWER" thing, while completely ignore that whole motivation of Vergil form DmC isn't better than "I WILL RULE THE WORLD". That's without mentioning the fact of how stupid it was to even start talking to dante and kat about it in the first place.
And as for how he was going to achieve it, at least in DMC3 Vergil had means to achieve his goals. In DmC Vergil lacked them. He couldn't even rule the world, because he has nothing left in the end. He lost all of his men, his whole base of operation, he kept database on Mundus network (but in the end it was useless since network ceased to exist when hell-gate opened). Well unless people actually think somebody can take the world with one laptop, his motivation and goals are barely hold together and serve only as poor excuse to fight him as the final boss.

I'll admit that DmC's script isn't exactly a masterpiece. I also agree that new Vergil is not necessarily a 'better' character than old Vergil. Old Vergil wants power, new Vergil wants it too. Why? To rule over the humans... the same as in DMC3 where Vergil no doubt wants to rule the demon world. New Vergil wants revenge? Well, who said old Vergil doesn't? To be honest, the main reason I can think of to open the hell gate in DMC3 is to find Mundus and kill him. And then probably rule in his stead... I mean what legacy would Vergil leave if he didn't become an important person? He would NOT just live in the demon world under Mundus happy and easy.
In the end I think you're mostly right: DmC Vergil's motivations (and the amount of planning he did) and such just aren't great, even though his backstory is more detailed and he states his reasons clearly.

Anyway, I think preferring new Vergil over old Vergil simply because his backstory is clearly defined, is kinda weak. This thread is about which Vergil you prefer, nothing more... and I prefer old Vergil because I like his personality more, his looks, his way of talking, his body language, all that. All of it except his backstory, I guess. If he had a good backstory, he would win 100% over new Vergil. There's still some reading between the lines we can do, however, which makes old Vergil's backstory not a complete disaster.

 

[WolfOD64]

It's pretty funny that people still think whole motivation of DmC's Vergil makes any sense. People keep complaining about whole "POWER" thing, while completely ignore that whole motivation of Vergil form DmC isn't better than "I WILL RULE THE WORLD".

Dante: "Where'd you learn this stuff?"
Vergil: "Hacking? Taught myself as a kid...I guess it gave me a sense of control."
Dante: "Control...hmm. Never really had that, did we?"
Vergil: "...no."

And that's not really "reading between the lines", like you have to do with every instance of speculation when analyzing the Old Vergil...it's already been stated that both Dante and Vergil were separated and put into harsh atmospheres. This cluster of dialogue was probably an allusion to that, and serves as a suitable source of motivation for Vergil. It only makes sense...people who want control and authority are people who were never allowed to have either one.

Not to mention that it's fairly apparent from many cutscenes that Vergil thinks that he knows best...that only his way of thinking is the right one. He sees all of his hard work and collection of data as a more dire priority than Kat's safety when Mundus' forces are attacking the Order's Headquarters. He tries to assume control when Dante wants to use Lilith as a bartering tool rather than a means to stop Mundus. And when his true intentions surface at the game's ending, he's still acting like an authority figure, automatically granting himself a seat of power and lecturing Dante on how "humans need protection."

There's both motivation and character traits that support the New Vergil's pursuit of world domination. There's almost none of that for the Old Vergil. He just hates humans because the writers say so, and wants to take over the world to fulfill some replication of Sparda he's yearned for the entire game...or rather, in the last five minutes when Dante brings it up in the final confrontation. There isn't any constantly recurring character traits or narrative insight to explain why Vergil wants to dominate the world at all. He's barely a villain...he's just another lazily-written obstacle for Dante to encounter.

 

[Innsmouth]

I'll admit that DmC's script isn't exactly a masterpiece. I also agree that new Vergil is not necessarily a 'better' character than old Vergil. Old Vergil wants power, new Vergil wants it too. Why? To rule over the humans... the same as in DMC3 where Vergil no doubt wants to rule the demon world. New Vergil wants revenge? Well, who said old Vergil doesn't? To be honest, the main reason I can think of to open the hell gate in DMC3 is to find Mundus and kill him. And then probably rule in his stead... I mean what legacy would Vergil leave if he didn't become an important person? He would NOT just live in the demon world under Mundus happy and easy.
In the end I think you're mostly right: DmC Vergil's motivations (and the amount of planning he did) and such just aren't great, even though his backstory is more detailed and he states his reasons clearly.

Dante: "Where'd you learn this stuff?"
Vergil: "Hacking? Taught myself as a kid...I guess it gave me a sense of control."
Dante: "Control...hmm. Never really had that, did we?"
Vergil: "...no."

And that's not really "reading between the lines", like you have to do with every instance of speculation when analyzing the Old Vergil...it's already been stated that both Dante and Vergil were separated and put into harsh atmospheres. This cluster of dialogue was probably an allusion to that, and serves as a suitable source of motivation for Vergil. It only makes sense...people who want control and authority are people who were never allowed to have either one.

Not to mention that it's fairly apparent from many cutscenes that Vergil thinks that he knows best...that only his way of thinking is the right one. He sees all of his hard work and collection of data as a more dire priority than Kat's safety when Mundus' forces are attacking the Order's Headquarters. He tries to assume control when Dante wants to use Lilith as a bartering tool rather than a means to stop Mundus. And when his true intentions surface at the game's ending, he's still acting like an authority figure, automatically granting himself a seat of power and lecturing Dante on how "humans need protection."

There's both motivation and character traits that support the New Vergil's pursuit of world domination. There's almost none of that for the Old Vergil. He just hates humans because the writers say so, and wants to take over the world to fulfill some replication of Sparda he's yearned for the entire game...or rather, in the last five minutes when Dante brings it up in the final confrontation. There isn't any constantly recurring character traits or narrative insight to explain why Vergil wants to dominate the world at all. He's barely a villain...he's just another lazily-written obstacle for Dante to encounter.

Sooo he's psychopath bent on controlling others. It's not making strong motivation. Just that he has issues with his head. And like I already said his whole speech was pretty stupid to begin with, since it's not even remotely understandable how he intended to do it. I doubt striking few poses on rooftop helped him to achieve dominance. And I'm not even talking how transparent his intentions was from the beginning. After encounter with that one-eyed demon(forgot his name) it was clear that he's evil. Whole dialogue on rooftop just served as poor attempt at surprise discovery, which shouldn't be surprise to anyone, tbh.
That aside, where DMC3 Vergil at least once said he wanted to rule the world? Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't remember something remotely close to it was in the game.

 

[DarkSlayerZero]

Where are people getting the idea that old Vergil wanted revenge or that he was even strong to actually defeat Mundus?

Old Vergil just wanted power that's it no world domination or anything.

 

[Lord Nero]

Where are people getting the idea that old Vergil wanted revenge or that he was even strong to actually defeat Mundus?

Old Vergil just wanted power that's it no world domination or anything.

Only if you cling to the idea that Vergil only wants power 'because he never said otherwise'. I really get the sense that Vergil wants more than just power. Power is a means, not an end... I'm sure Vergil realizes that too. I know this is pure speculation from my part, but I've seen some speculation by others on this page too, soo... yeah.
That aside, we can't just call old Vergil a bad character or 'worse than new Vergil' just because he (says) he has only the pursuit of power as a motivation. Pretty sure new Vergil's desire to rule the humans came out of the blue too... so what if he announced that desire.

But... old Vergil is dead. Became Nero Angelo, got his ass kicked into the fourth dimension... or whatever dimension you like.

In any case, Vergil's coherence as a character isn't the topic of this thread. It is about preference... and I prefer old Vergil. The fact that he might be a flatter character is irrelevant. I prefer his style, his demeanor, his type of speech, and so on. New Vergil is a decent character, but I don't like him or find him remotely interesting. Just my personal taste.

 

[Chancey289]

Where are people getting the idea that old Vergil wanted revenge or that he was even strong to actually defeat Mundus?

Old Vergil just wanted power that's it no world domination or anything.

H-E-A-D

C-A-N-O-N

 

[WolfOD64]

Sooo he's psychopath bent on controlling others. It's not making strong motivation. Just that he has issues with his head. And like I already said his whole speech was pretty stupid to begin with, since it's not even remotely understandable how he intended to do it. I doubt striking few poses on rooftop helped him to achieve dominance. And I'm not even talking how transparent his intentions was from the beginning. After encounter with that one-eyed demon(forgot his name) it was clear that he's evil. Whole dialogue on rooftop just served as poor attempt at surprise discovery, which shouldn't be surprise to anyone, tbh.

But the motivation is there...strong or not. That's what we're discussing here...not how he was going to achieve it. And anyway, his "reveal" at the end, wasn't so much a reveal about what he was really like, so much as revealing the extent he was willing to go to. There were plenty of instances in the game where the other characters could see what kind of a person Vergil was without his honeyed idealist speeches and in a situation of frantic desperation (the incident with Lilith was enough of an indicator). But no one probably suspected him because everything he had been doing up till that point had been for the sake of preserving the Order. Even such drastic and questionable lengths like abandoning Kat and eliminating Mundus's heir were shocking, but understandable in the context of the cause he was fighting for. No one, not even Dante, could really argue against the ends...just the means. It's only when the end goal was revealed to be something else entirely---Vergil's conquest, not humanity's restoration---that the characters actually react.

We, the audience, know what Vergil's going to turn into, but the other characters are only getting mere glimpses of his true nature. This is a narrative ploy called "dramatic irony", where the audience knows one thing, and the characters know another. We already knew what Vergil would do with power once he had obtained it, thanks to our experience with the original lore...even if it shows up in rebooted form. But what's interesting is to see how this version of the character unravels into the darker, seedier villain that he was always meant to be.

Only if you cling to the idea that Vergil only wants power 'because he never said otherwise'. I really get the sense that Vergil wants more than just power. Power is a means, not an end... I'm sure Vergil realizes that too. I know this is pure speculation from my part, but I've seen some speculation by others on this page too, soo... yeah.

You can really only speculate so much with such little information that you're given.

I speculate a lot about the New Vergil, but I base most of it on facts and history detailed by the character in the actual game. It's a little hard to speculate any finer details about Old Vergil given how he didn't highlight his true intentions or motivations AT ALL.

 

[Innsmouth]

But the motivation is there...strong or not. That's what we're discussing here...not how he was going to achieve it. And anyway, his "reveal" at the end, wasn't so much a reveal about what he was really like, so much as revealing the extent he was willing to go to. There were plenty of instances in the game where the other characters could see what kind of a person Vergil was without his honeyed idealist speeches and in a situation of frantic desperation (the incident with Lilith was enough of an indicator). But no one probably suspected him because everything he had been doing up till that point had been for the sake of preserving the Order. Even such drastic and questionable lengths like abandoning Kat and eliminating Mundus's heir were shocking, but understandable in the context of the cause he was fighting for. No one, not even Dante, could really argue against the ends...just the means. It's only when the end goal was revealed to be something else entirely---Vergil's conquest, not humanity's restoration---that the characters actually react.
.

I already said, whole conquest really looked like poor attempt to make boss fight. Whole problem with it, is that Vergil supposed to be master manipulator, but he does very poor job at it, He knows Dante cares about Kat, so he should at least remotely understand that if he will be like "I gonna ruke all humanity, this will get Dante ****ed." sadly he wouldn't even able to understand this.
As for motivation...well he's just control freak, just as original was power-hungry. Both are nothing than twisted personalities. And I think it was pretty obvious that he was asshole from the beginning. He didn't done much to hide it. Also incident with Lilith happened after he didn't lifted a finger to protect his men. That kinda means that he's not only bad conspirator but also a pretty incompetent leader.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

It's pretty funny that people still think whole motivation of DmC's Vergil makes any sense. People keep complaining about whole "POWER" thing, while completely ignore that whole motivation of Vergil form DmC isn't better than "I WILL RULE THE WORLD". That's without mentioning the fact of how stupid it was to even start talking to dante and kat about it in the first place.

The main point is that at least DmC Vergil has reasons for his motivations, good or bad is a different debate entirely, but the fact of the matter is that we actually know why he's doing it. DmC Vergil's motivations make total sense within the confines of the narrative he is in, and doesn't require a grand amount of guesswork and theorycrafting to piece together.

And as for how he was going to achieve it, at least in DMC3 Vergil had means to achieve his goals. In DmC Vergil lacked them. He couldn't even rule the world, because he has nothing left in the end. He lost all of his men, his whole base of operation, he kept database on Mundus network (but in the end it was useless since network ceased to exist when hell-gate opened). Well unless people actually think somebody can take the world with one laptop, his motivation and goals are barely hold together and serve only as poor excuse to fight him as the final boss.

There is way more to The Order than their headquarters that got raided - they're a global network, all the information he has wasn't simply for Mundus, it was for all of demonkind and where their influence wass. Obviously the information on Mundus ceases to be useful once he's gone, but they still have both a global network, all the information they've accrued on the demons, and the fact that Vergil was an incredibly powerful nephilim like Dante.

You're foolish, and a little ignorant, if you think that everything left of The Order is on a single laptop.

Vergil didn't just turn on his heel at the end of the game, either. Once he divulged how he truly feels about humans, and his ultimate goal in the wake of Mundus' defeat, it's incredibly easy to see a common thread in all of his actions throughout the game that help him achieve his goals with subterfuge and misdirection.

1 I know, I'm just saying that I think a lot can be said for characters that don't announce their reasons to the player. I'm sure there have been plenty of bad guys in video games who never explained their reasons for doing something, we just accept that they must have some reason. TBH, I'm fine with Vergil not explaining everything. He has some issues, and his motivation seems basically the same as new Vergil's... so... I'm saying there's no reason to bash old Vergil just because he doesn't make his motivations clear. Even if his only motivation were to obtain power, that's fine with me. It's no worse a motivation than wanting to rule over humanity. Pretty sure new Vergil doesn't explain why he wants to either. Only that 'humans are weak and need protection'. Cool story, bruh.

Yeah, there's lots of characters who never blurt out their motivations, which is fine, playing close to the chest is something that a lot of characters can and will do. However, from a writing standpoint, the fact that they never did anything to help us understand Vergil's reasons for seeking power is where it all falls apart...or rather, where it just hits a wall. It's just so weird that Vergil says so much about how great power is, but never gives a hint to his own reasoning, and even his own brother doesn't get it out of him, when he probably totally could have. If there's one character who could get Vergil to explain himself more, it was Dante, but...well...he was too busy being a ninja turtle in the story >.<

2 Seems logical Vergil wants to rule over the demon world. Doesn't it seem logical to you that since he reads up on Sparda's legacy and says he wants Sparda's power.. he probably wants to emulate Sparda? ''Why do you refuse the power of our father'' he says, while Dante feels that Sparda being his father is irrelevant.
The game never said that his only motivation for getting power or closing the hell gate is 'because he's a demon', so you're making assumptions too.

Well no, I didn't say that he wanted to close a hellgate (I said open actually, didn't I?). Him opening the hellgate is just a byproduct of him wanting to seek out the power Sparda left behind. And I don't mean to imply that "because he's a demon" is an assumption, I just mean that, if what you suggested was true, that it was all because he was a demon, then that'd be horrible.

Him wanting to emulate Sparda is surely a possibility, but it's slightly contradicted by Vergil's own careless actions that put humanity at risk, which is the exact opposite of what Sparda did, like literally; Sparda sacrificed his own power to close a hellgate and protect humanity, while Vergil sacrifices humanity's safety by opening a hellgate to receive Sparda's power.

3 Well that's conjecture too. Just because a few demons got out into the human world does not mean the entire human world is in jeopardy. In DMC3, there's some areas of the city that were damaged and abandoned, yes... but there is no indication that the entire human world (or even the city) is flooded with demons.
Also, as far as I know, Sparda's power was locked away because he can't be a fullblood demon and human at the same time in the human world. He sacrificed (much of) his demon side to live with Eva. Now that he's dead, Vergil finds there is no reason to keep it sealed. In the end the gate is sealed again. Vergil doesn't care though because he just wants to stay in the demon world at that point.

Well, he used that power to close a hellgate and seal a door to the underworld, effectively cutting off any great demonic migration that allowed the demons to hassle humanity in the first place. I don't quite remember it ever being said that he left that power behind simply because he wanted to be more human, though. I remember it being that he left it there as an integral piece to keeping the seal in place.

However, you can't try to mitigate the severity of opening a gate to Hell's impact on humanity simply because we don't see a lot of humanity. The severity is in the fact that a gate to Hell was reopened! Why would Sparda seal it shut if it wasn't an incredible risk to humanity to be left open? You don't lock away a petty offender in a maximum security prison - that's where the true dangers to society go.

4 I understand completely, and yes I wish Vergil and Dante had an actual deep backstory, but I can't rate new Vergil above old Vergil only because his backstory is more defined. I can't say that new Vergil is a better character just because of his explained backstory. That's just not enough for me. I simply like old Vergil better because the rest of his character is enjoyable. I like that he's a cold, brooding character who doesn't talk much and goes for his goals head-on. I like his way of talking, his (almost nonexistent) body language, his combos... everything besides his backstory.

Or lackthereof I don't mean to imply that one should be rated higher than the other, but objectively, looking at the character development side of things, classic Vergil fell incredibly short by lacking basic things, which is why I always call him one-dimensional. He's certainly so cool he's Absolute Zero, but when I look at how he fits into the actual narrative, I'm disappointed in the lack of even basic development to help us understand him more. Hell the games even use Files to relay information, they could have at least done that so we knew :C

5 He never said he was surprised Dante survived. He said ''I see a demon has awoken in you as well''. That does indicate he did not know Dante didn't have a DT yet, but it says nothing about him wanting Dante dead. He impaled him, yes... but Vergil knows you can't kill a son of Sparda by impaling him. They regenerate like crazy, remember? Dante gets impaled again in DMC1. And again in DMC4. If he wanted to kill Dante, he would've cut his head off. Plain and simple.

It's not like he's gonna say "I'm shocked!" or something, it's the fact that he left him to die and wasn't expecting Dante to get back up. It's slight conjecture, really, because this is when they were no where near as powerful as they are in the later games, and if gameplay is to be believed, incurring enough wounds is enough to kill them. He may be a Son of Sparda, but they are half-human, and we've seen incredibly strong demons killed by less.

All we see is Vergil constantly coming at Dante with an intent to kill; in their first fight, he impaled Dante and left him for dead, but Dante got back up, and Arkham suggested they just leave; in their second fight, they were interrupted by Lady and later Arkham; and in their third fight, they damn near killed each other, but were again interrupted and Dante was forced to leave.

6 As he and Arkham talked, he was holding a book detailing Sparda's legacy. It's quite possible that that whole library (or large parts of it) was dedicated to Sparda. In any case, he was reading up on Sparda, and it's clear he wants to emulate him. He basically says it himself.

He talks about wanting Sparda's power, or to be powerful like Sparda, but never actually talks about emulating him via Sparda's good deeds. All Vergil seemed to care about was the power itself.

7 Pretty sure he doesn't kill anyone in DMC3 without a good reason. Could've killed Lady. Did he? No. He tries to kill Arkham because he knows his demonic side has taken over. That much became clear when Arkham grasped Vergil's Katana by the blade. The part about him not caring about anyone but himself is again you jumping to conclusions.

Sure, that's how selfish people work; if he had any semblance of honor, he wouldn't go around murdering people because they are in his way or no longer useful to him, or putting others in danger simply for his own sake; honor is about an unyielding respect for others, Vergil exudes next to none. He kills an unarmed and unaware Arkham for outliving his usefulness, and remember Vergil had no inclination that Arkham would survive. He straight up tries to slice Lady in two when she interrupts their second fight, but Dante intervenes. Him not caring about anyone else isn't a conclusion I simply jumped to, it's a conclusion based solely on the fact that everything he did in the game was for himself, and he cared little for what happened to others - he was willing to murder his own brother for his goals, and endangers all of humanity by swinging open a door to the underworld.

Now, based on the theory people have, if he really was about motivated by his mother's death to protect humanity from the demons, he'd be an incredibly stupid to try and gain power which involves unlocking a portal to Hell and letting out the very the demons out he supposedly wants to protect humanity from. Everything was fine and dandy, and humanity was much safer with that gate locked. There's a certain point when the "crack a few eggs to make an omelet"

8 So he has the same reasons. Revenge, sure, old Vergil no doubt wants that too. Mundus is also the ruler of the demon world in DMC3 really... so I don't doubt that Vergil's plan was to open the hell gate to find Mundus and kill him. He even tried to kill him at the end of DMC3, so yeah. He could've joined Mundus, but he wanted revenge... just like new Vergil. Considering it's probable that old Vergil wants to rule the demon world in Mundus's place, that's the same as in DmC. The only difference is, like you said, new Vergil clearly states his reasons while old Vergil keeps it a slight mystery. But considering old Vergil wants 'power', he will kill Mundus. Ruling over the demon world is 'power' too.

And all the "probably" you mentioned with classic Vergil is where it all falls apart, unfortunately. We explicitly know what DmC Vergil wants, and why. Classic Vergil's whats and whys are all a big blank space, and it's easily filled in with theory, which unfortunately does not make him any less one-dimensional when it comes to story.

However, I feel that once again I must plainly state that I don't like, hate DMC3 or classic Vergil; DMC3 is my favorite of the classic series, and I find Vergil to be a fun power trip of a character. I just...don't have any qualms with saying he has sh!t for development.

 

[Innsmouth]

There is way more to The Order than their headquarters that got raided - they're a global network, all the information he has wasn't simply for Mundus, it was for all of demonkind and where their influence wass. Obviously the information on Mundus ceases to be useful once he's gone, but they still have both a global network, all the information they've accrued on the demons, and the fact that Vergil was an incredibly powerful nephilim like Dante.
.

I say from the beginning, I'm not interested in your fanfiction. So you may as well drop it right now, since it wasn't in the game, and you don't have a single proof it was. period. So what of that he was nephilim? So if he makes few cool poses and scream IM THE NEPHILIM everybody going to listen to him?

Vergil didn't just turn on his heel at the end of the game, either. Once he divulged how he truly feels about humans, and his ultimate goal in the wake of Mundus' defeat, it's incredibly easy to see a common thread in all of his actions throughout the game that help him achieve his goals with subterfuge and misdirection.

I never said he made 180° at the end. Just that his whole monologue about world ruling proved how stupid and incompetent he was and it was bad attempt to make some background for final battle.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

I already said, whole conquest really looked like poor attempt to make boss fight. Whole problem with it, is that Vergil supposed to be master manipulator, but he does very poor job at it, He knows Dante cares about Kat, so he should at least remotely understand that if he will be like "I gonna ruke all humanity, this will get Dante ****ed." sadly he wouldn't even able to understand this.

Except it wasn't, and you're throwing your own negative opinion at the quality of it, while wholly ignoring a lot of other things that the game presents. Like literally, I think your distaste for the game has shielded a lot from your eyes. You constantly f#cking preach about "reading between the lines" and yet refuse to accept what others have seen by doing so, that is backed up by everything else in the narrative. Reading between the lines in DMC3 does nothing because there's no information to back up what is apparently found between those lines, other than an immense amount of guessing, theorizing, and sometimes great leaps in logic and ignorance.

In DmC, Vergil constantly reminds Dante how he's not human, and despite noticing how much Dante cares about Kat, Vergil still believed that the bonds of family and being the only two of their race would be stronger. Then there's all the manipulative words Vergil uses to talk up how great they are as nephilim, and that the Order's cause is for the greater good. In the end, Vergil still feels it's for the greater good, but Dante thought that this entire time he was fighting for humanity's complete freedom, and not simply a change in leadership.

As for motivation...well he's just control freak, just as original was power-hungry. Both are nothing than twisted personalities. And I think it was pretty obvious that he was asshole from the beginning. He didn't done much to hide it. Also incident with Lilith happened after he didn't lifted a finger to protect his men. That kinda means that he's not only bad conspirator but also a pretty incompetent leader.

Yeah, Vergil is a control freak. He has meticulous plans laid out and goals in mind, and he doesn't give a sh!t what he has to do to achieve that goal. He's selfish in the same way that the classic Vergil is. Vergil does come off as an asshole if you don't agree with what he thinks is right, it's the entire part of his character; he cons Dante into believing that what Vergil is doing is the best for humanity, and when he finally reveals the second part of his plan, he's utterly disappointed that Dante doesn't agree with him. He even tries to explain his reasoning to Dante, that humans need the nephilim as their kings, and how t!ts it'll be when they're ruling over humanity.

The incidents that saw his men killed is subtle proof of how little he cares about humans. His data that would help him take down Mundus, along with Dante, were what he cared about most, because those men at HQ were beyond saving. What seems like a "sad but justifiable sacrifice for the survival of the cause" in the beginning takes on a whole new context in the end when we see that Vergil never saw humanity as anything more than something to use and something to rule over. He wasn't willing to sacrifice his men for the greater good, he was willing to sacrifice his men because humans are only useful up to a certain point, and when they stop being useful, f#ck 'em.

However, there's more to it than that, which is the point - we know why he is the way he is, we know why he wants what he wants. We explicitly know the reasons behind his motivation.

However, all of this is incidental to the point that while DmC Vergil had reason to accompany his actions and motivation, while the classic was factually lacking it entirely, filled in by headcanon. Obviously classic Vergil has a reason, but we are never in any way given the opportunity to find out. Just because everyone has a reason for their actions doesn't excuse the fact that it is impossible to factually and 100% unequivocally determine what classic Vergil's reasons were. All we have is his "f#ck everyone, get power" motivation. A what without a why is bad.

Right now you are literally accepting the fact that DmC Vergil has something the classic doesn't; reason, but then attempting to devalue that reason to lessen the blow. You are a child trying to justify not getting a toy he wanted by saying "it's stupid anyway".

 

[Innsmouth]

Well you once again grasping at straws and trying to back it up with couple of non-existing facts. His whole motivation...is actually that he has serious mental issues. But it's not good written story, or even half-decent one. Why the hell he wanted to rule humans? What did he achieved by that? how he going to do it? It's all abstract question that never were answered. There is no strong motive behind it beside him being disturbed person. Oh, yes I think they tried to add something like that parents loved Dante more in VD...which actually still didn't answered single of these question.
New Vergil is fail at attempt to make motivated villain, just like Bane was in last Batman film.
Even before there was cliche where villains wanted to achieve abstract hard to understand goals, there was even more cliche type: Guy who stands on top and screams "Im going to rule the world". Where new vergil belongs.
And don't even start on "reading between lines", since you blindly refuses to do so in terms of older games, you're not one to talk about it in the first place. You just trying to justify your bias and stubbornly prove how crappy older games where, while desperately defending literally everything about new game, even things that considered crappy by most.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

I say from the beginning, I'm not interested in your fanfiction. So you may as well drop it right now, since it wasn't in the game, and you don't have a single proof it was. period.

F#ck yourself, Innsmouth, they showed that there's more to the Order than just the one building in the game, and that they aren't simply based in Limbo City. There's a bunch of info that floods the internet about the demons at the end of DmC, some of it coming from the public, and some of it coming from other Order members. If everyone died at Order HQ, there would be no one to be tweeting stuff like "Demons, we have awoken" and such.

So what of that he was nephilim? So if he makes few cool poses and scream IM THE NEPHILIM everybody going to listen to him?

There's plenty of things he could have done, and considering how meticulous of a person he is, he probably had a plan in place; he is a billionaire with a secret organization after all. However, that would be theory, and yet you also can't throw up your "hurr hurr he poses on a building and makes people listen to him" bullsh!t as if that's all he could do, and therefore it's bad.

I never said he made 180° at the end. Just that his whole monologue about world ruling proved how stupid and incompetent he was and it was bad attempt to make some background for final battle.

You have yet to actually prove how it is objectively bad. Just constantly saying it doesn't make it true, you need to provide evidence as to why it's bad, and that evidence then has to hold up against scrutiny.

 

[Innsmouth]

F#ck yourself, Innsmouth, they showed that there's more to the Order than just the one building in the game, and that they aren't simply based in Limbo City. There's a bunch of info that floods the internet about the demons at the end of DmC, some of it coming from the public, and some of it coming from other Order members. If everyone died at Order HQ, there would be no one to be tweeting stuff like "Demons, we have awoken" and such..

So now you reduced to childish profanity. You seriously should finally learn some general manners. As for flood on internet it was tweets by people who saw demons on the streets. Seriously you see some ugly things walking on the street you talk about it.
So where they showed in the game more buildings? Where they even show other members of Order beside background figure? You finally should stop mixing fantasy with reality.

There's plenty of things he could have done, and considering how meticulous of a person he is, he probably had a plan in place; he is a billionaire with a secret organization after all. However, that would be theory, and yet you also can't throw up your "hurr hurr he poses on a building and makes people listen to him" bullsh!t as if that's all he could do, and therefore it's bad..

Whose organization was destroyed and along with world owherewelmed by demons, he couldn't done much about it. So yeah what he does next? He ****es of Dante got his ass kicked and runs away. Yeah...that proves he's very competent, lol xD He didn't even had basic info like Mundus HQ layout, and you talking about some non-existing means.

You have yet to actually prove how it is objectively bad. Just constantly saying it doesn't make it true, you need to provide evidence as to why it's bad, and that evidence then has to hold up against scrutiny.

I provided enough of it. It's not my fault that you cover your ears and start screaming "f*ck you". All you talking about is heavily distorted by your own imagination. But glamouring it won't make it go away.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

Well you once again grasping at straws and trying to back it up with couple of non-existing facts. His whole motivation...is actually that he has serious mental issues. But it's not good written story, or even half-decent one.

And yet none of this has anything to do with the fact that the classic Vergil lacks something DmC Vergil has. Stop trying to devalue that as if it proves your point.

Why the hell he wanted to rule humans? What did he achieved by that? how he going to do it? It's all abstract question that never were answered.

Holy sh!t are you f#cking for real right now?! "Why the hell e wanted to rule humans?" BECAUSE HE SAYS THEY'RE LIKE WEAK CHILDREN THAT NEED TO BE WATCHED OVER! HE F#CKING SAYS THAT!

"Humans are frail. Like children. They need protection. Not just from others, but from themselves. We - you and I - have saved them!"

Did you completely ignore that? Everything he does he believes he's doing for the greater good, because humans are too weak and too stupid to take care of themselves. The only thing abstract is how he was going to do it, but only because the game centers around Dante and Dante stops following him.

There is no strong motive behind it beside him being disturbed person. Oh, yes I think they tried to add something like that parents loved Dante more in VD...which actually still didn't answered single of these question.

And being disturbed is only one part of his motivation. It's like the Joker, he's f#cking insane, but it's only half the reason why he does what he does. Being disturbed is a personality trait that allows a character to enact achieving whatever goals or motivations they have, it is one element part of the character's reasons for doing things.

And don't even start on "reading between lines", since you blindly refuses to do so in terms of older games, you're not one to talk about it in the first place. You just trying to justify your bias and stubbornly prove how crappy older games where, while desperately defending literally everything about new game, even things that considered crappy by most.

Bullsh!t dude, utter bullsh!t. Your junk about reading between the lines demands that I accept unconfirmed theory as fact, when it sometimes explicitly contradicts what is presented without having to read between the lines.[/QUOTE]

 

[Innsmouth]

So yeah, he protected humans by sending hoards of demons on them...well that actually worked astonishing well. And besides this whole phrase is meaningless, since in whole game he didn't bothered protect anyone. Not a single person. All he was talking is control, control, control. The only positive emotion he was talking about was his love to Dante (supposed) that disappeared in the blink of the eye in the end.
Well I'm sorry you won't accept junk. That kinda relives me of need to hear that madeup stuff you desperately tries to come up with.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

So where they showed in the game more buildings? Where they even show other members of Order beside background figure? You finally should stop mixing fantasy with reality.

Do I need to remind you that the absence of evidence does not mean the evidence of absence? Just because they didn't show more people or facilities doesn't mean they don't exist dude. Then of course there's the fact that you so plainly waived away. Lots of people tweeted about it in the ending scene, yes, but there were also people talking about it all as if they're completely not surprised, because they were other members of the Order! Especially the one saying "Demons, we have awoken" which is a response that "Hey demons, see all these people talking about demons? Yeah, we're awake now! You're rule has ended!" It's a taunt from someone in the organization that was responsible for bringing the demons down.

Just, holy sh!t dude.

Also, fun fact for anyone who gives a sh!t - the "twitter" message "Demons, we have awoken" came from the username "SuperNinjaTam", which was Tameem Antoniades' twitter handle

Whose organization was destroyed and along with world owherewelmed by demons, he couldn't done much about it. So yeah what he does next? He ****es of Dante got his ass kicked and runs away. Yeah...that proves he's very competent, lol xD He didn't even had basic info like Mundus HQ layout, and you talking about some non-existing means.

So because Dante foiled his plans for world domination that we had yet to see, that means that those unseen plans must have been bad...? His plan sort of hinged on Dante accepting to rule along with him, which he totally thought he would because he mistook their familial and racial bonds as stronger than Dante's desire for freedom for himself and humanity.

I provided enough of it. It's not my fault that you cover your ears and start screaming "f*ck you". All you talking about is heavily distorted by your own imagination. But glamouring it won't make it go away.

NOTHING YOU PROVIDED HELD UP! Some of it contradicted what we explicitly know in the game and some of it was flat out headcanon that had no proof to back it up! How can you constantly try to slam me for not providing information and only seeing what I want to see, and yet do the same thing yourself!?

You can't read between the lines and come up with unconfirmed or contradicting points!

 

[TWOxACROSS]

So yeah, he protected humans by sending hoards of demons on them...well that actually worked astonishing well. And besides this whole phrase is meaningless, since in whole game he didn't bothered protect anyone. Not a single person.

YES! EXACTLY! He thinks the humans are stupid and weak and need to be ruled over because of that, and he doesn't care about them personally, he cares about them as subjects. As a mass of idiots he feels he has the privilege and even right to rule over because he's a superior being. If a few die, so be it (crack a few eggs to make an omelete, as they say), but he'll be damned if he's going to just let them run amok like idiots and make things worse.

Oh yeah, also - demons are weaker, possibly even damn near powerless outside of Limbo. It's the entire reason they pull people into Limbo in the first place, because that's the only place their magic truly works. It's why they resorted to subtler means of control in the real world bolstered by magical means from Limbo. But, that's another thing stated early on in the game's development, and I'm not sure I can easily find that again through four years of internet.