New Vergil or Devil May Cry 3 Vergil?

[Innsmouth]

Fine. To make you feel better about yourself;

-new Vergil is a psychopath in sheep's clothing which makes it obvious.

-new Vergil has an overly-pretentious way of dressing himself that makes him obvious to being a bad guy.

-the way he hides can be often strange since he tries hard to not let Mundus see him, yet he walks outside with Dante and Kat a few times and shows himself during the trade.

-Vergil's way of thinking is stereotypical to the textbook bad guy of those "more money, more problems" situations.

-new Vergil is a jealous child in the end. He was pretty much jealous of Dante all his life and that's one of the reasons he didn't rescue Dante right away. A slight sadistic hate for him.

-new Vergil was a dictator just like everyone knew he'd be.

There.

Umm what makes you think I feel bad about myself? Besides I agree with everything you just wrote and never argued on this.

 

[DragonMaster2010]

Umm what makes you think I feel bad about myself? Besides I agree with everything you just wrote and never argued on this.

So why say "No one's making flaws about new Vergil" as if this were a who shouts louder contest?

 

[Innsmouth]

So why say "No one's making flaws about new Vergil" as if this were a who shouts louder contest?

...huh? Where did I said that :O

 

[DragonMaster2010]

...huh? Where did I said that :O

I have yet to see person who says that classics don't have flaws. Though I have already seen more than one person who defend DmC to the death while refusing to admit a single flaw in it.

 

[Innsmouth]

Umm...1. I talked in general about game 2. I didn't meant that nobody is willing to admit flaws, just that such people exists.

 

[WolfOD64]

To put a conclusion, you're doing it all the time. Everything you said, is based on assumption, reading between lines, stuff that wasn't remotely shown in the game and conveniently missing pieces of interviews that somehow nowhere to be seen.

So basically, it's unacceptable to employ any kind of assumptions or speculation on DmC...but it's okay when you assume and speculate to the point of head-canon when discussing DMC3?

Seems legit.

 

[V's patron]

As a boss fight I prefer Classic Vergil because it was more satisfying when you finally beat him.

As a character I dont have a preference anymore.

 

[DragonMaster2010]

Umm...1. I talked in general about game 2. I didn't meant that nobody is willing to admit flaws, just that such people exists.

But yet in this context of old vs new Vergil, it's still ties in. Not admitting flaws (Vergil, Dante, story, DmC in general).

If you meant that you should've said "there are some people who will not admit DmC has flaws."

 

[Innsmouth]

But yet in this context of old vs new Vergil, it's still ties in. Not admitting flaws (Vergil, Dante, story, DmC in general).

If you meant that you should've said "there are some people who will not admit DmC has flaws."

ok, sorry, you're right I worded it wrong.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

I have yet to see person who says that classics don't have flaws. Though I have already seen more than one person who defend DmC to the death while refusing to admit a single flaw in it.

That's a bit hyperbolic, to be honest. You're either saying that for the sake of argument, or you haven't been paying attention to what people who like DmC say (which wouldn't really be surprising). Certain "flaws" are extremely subjective. People like to say DmC is a sh!t game because it doesn't meet the expectations they unjustly wanted it to meet.

But fine, you want my criticism of the game?

! - Despite the potential the game's system has, I'm disappointed that they didn't have more abilities. There's a lot of inputs that went unused that would have been perfect for things like Twosome Time, Gunstinger, and a couple other moves. Plus, they totally could have brought back my favorite moves from DMC3; Wild Stomp and Free Ride.

@ - As much as I love the art style in the game, some of the effects I feel lack the mystical nature of some of Dante's moves. I loved the magical inclinations with Kat, and would have loved to see more on Dante, too. I miss Air Hiking from a magically created platform.

# - I couldn't give two sh!ts about framerate, but I would have liked it to be faster, just because I like fast-paced games. The 20% Turbo that SamD shows off is exactly what I wish I had on console.

$ - There's a few things that I wish they would have fleshed out better, but then again I'm also a huge fan of Metal Gear Solid and Final Fantasy, so my desire for a lot of things divulged through cutscenes might be slightly skewed

% - I miss the File system, it was a great way to get some more insight on smaller details.

^ - I hate that once again, my favorite firearms become slightly less useful later in the game. It's like clockwork, almost. Gunslingers are destined for obsolescence it would seem.

& - While I like the design of Dante's Devil Trigger, I don't quite like that it's not a power amp like in the classics. Because of how powerful it is, I also don't particularly like how long it takes to build up, and how quickly it depletes. And I don't like the way the meter looks for it, I would have loved some kind of spraypainted glyph design or something.

* - Some of the sound effects used, while realistic, don't provide a great accompaniment to the crazy action you do.

( - I miss taunts. I'm glad while getting rid of them they modified the Style meter's retention behavior, but I miss the taunts because they were just a fun thing to do, and they generated magic. I could understand not wanting narrative-breaking taunts, but when they had scripted lines for the characters to say anyway, an easy system could have been made for creating a specific set of taunts to perform within the context of certain fights.

That's my criticism of DmC. However, these are not exactly flaws, because a flaw is something bad or wrong that is a detriment to the product, like a faulty fuel injection system that causes an engine to blow up. As a game DmC is perfectly fine. The only flaw that I can see that's truly objective is not explaining the rules of Limbo better, because it works against helping the audience understand interaction with such an abstract dimension.

-the way he hides can be often strange since he tries hard to not let Mundus see him, yet he walks outside with Dante and Kat a few times and shows himself during the trade.

To be fair, they didn't know what Vergil looked like until the Trade, and didn't even know his name until Kat told Mundus under torture (just before the trade). Pretty hard to find a guy when you have no idea what he looks like or who he is; Vergil just walkin' around in town is just another trilby-wearing douchecanoe. It'd be like me trying to find you, when I don't know your real name or what you look like

 

[TWOxACROSS]

On topic - I never really liked classic Vergil's look, or DMC3 Dante's for that matter >.< DMC1 Dante all the way! But I do like how some of his moves look a lot more.

If I could get a classic Vergil gameplay with the DmC Vergil's outfit, that'd be pretty cool

 

[mrrandomlulz]

Honestly, I love how you guys use sympathy and 3 dimension to determine which villain is better.
By that logic, Two Face is better than the Joker

 

[TWOxACROSS]

Being a multidimensional character is a product of several different things, and the more dynamic the better.

 

[mrrandomlulz]

Being a multidimensional character is a product of several different things, and the more dynamic the better.

But when it comes down to who the better bad guy was, it comes down to what they did as the bad guy, the stuff that shows us they are a threat to be dealt with.

 

[Lord Nero]

Just because a character is multidimensional does not make him/her 'better'. You could be as multidimensional as can be, but still be boring in terms of mannerisms, style, etc etc. If that's the case, I'd rather take a two-dimensional character who's fun as a character, over a multidimensional character that has a detailed backstory and ****e but bores the crap out of me.

In any case, old Vergil is more enjoyable to watch as a character (for me) because of everything besides his backstory/depth, so this whole debate about Vergil's depth as a character is useless. Of course I'd like characters with depth that make me feel for them, but new Vergil didn't really do that for me. He seemed pretty much the same as old Vergil, only more annoying in terms of character... just my opinion.
I'm not going to debate opinions. Opinions are what they are.

 

[DragonMaster2010]

Just because a character is multidimensional does not make him/her 'better'. You could be as multidimensional as can be, but still be boring in terms of mannerisms, style, etc etc. If that's the case, I'd rather take a two-dimensional character who's fun as a character, over a multidimensional character that has a detailed backstory and ****e but bores the crap out of me.

Though I would agree on that, that's not gonna be the case in the long run.

A favored character needs dimensions to explore his strong points, weak points, reasons for abilities, flaws, what makes him happy, what makes him sad. These are important. Since we've only had one game it's easy for you to say that, however when you have like ten forms of media and you have NO back story yet, then that in itself makes a character boring.
Why not put it in the game? It makes no sense.

True it is a preference of Vergils, but even though new Vergils dimensions are boring, at least he HAS dimensions. Though not a lot, it's actually something as oppose to headcanon passed off as real to make classic Vergil something he's not.

 

[Lord Nero]

Though I would agree on that, that's not gonna be the case in the long run.

A favored character needs dimensions to explore his strong points, weak points, reasons for abilities, flaws, what makes him happy, what makes him sad. These are important. Since we've only had one game it's easy for you to say that, however when you have like ten forms of media and you have NO back story yet, then that in itself makes a character boring.
Why not put it in the game? It makes no sense.

True it is a preference of Vergils, but even though new Vergils dimensions are boring, at least he HAS dimensions. Though not a lot, it's actually something as oppose to headcanon passed off as real to make classic Vergil something he's not.

Old Vergil is not coming back - he died at the end of DMC3 and was used as a puppet by Mundus. There's no indication he will return in other DMC games either, so... sorry, but this is all irrelevant.

As for old Vergil 'not having a personality' or something, I've heard that argument at least twice before, but I have not yet heard a logical basis for it. I've heard it all before: ''He's mostly quiet and cold, and those are not personality traits''... the hell they aren't. He has as much a personality as new Vergil. Just because his backstory is not laid out for us doesn't mean we can ignore or disparage his entire character. I also won't listen to any more of that ''oh he's soo cliché, there are some anime characters who are a lot like him''. I'm sure that goes for old Dante too. Or even Berial, Mundus, and any other character in the series. And even Mundus in DmC is like that, so... how can anyone seriously act like DmC is not cliché? And you know... I. don't. care. Besides, new Vergil isn't great either. I personally don't see any reason to consider old Vergil to lack a personality or lack motivations or anything like that. No reason to think he's an inferior character. Like TWOxACROSS said, he lacks a detailed backstory, but that's pretty much it.
And I'm not going to debate this any further... I'm getting way too many quotation notifications.

 

[Blue_Rose]

To add something, would a person with honor use the corpse of a defeated enemy as a punching bag to try out a new weapon?

DMC Vergil had no honor. Was he an asshole, yes.

Well I sure as hell wouldn't respect Beowulf if I were ****ed off like him when the ritual wouldn't work.

 

[DragonMaster2010]

Old Vergil is not coming back - he died at the end of DMC3 and was used as a puppet by Mundus. There's no indication he will return in other DMC games either, so... sorry, but this is all irrelevant.
.

It is relevant. We've only had about one game of old Vergil and we pretty much have next to nothing on who he is except "he's Dante's brother and he's evil...that's it."

As for old Vergil 'not having a personality' or something, I've heard that argument at least twice before, but I have not yet heard a logical basis for it. I've heard it all before: ''He's mostly quiet and cold, and those are not personality traits''... the hell they aren't. He has as much a personality as new Vergil.

Really?
Name the motivations of old Vergil that wasn't speculation or headcanon.
What was old Vergil doing all this time that's not from headcanon?
Why does Vergil hate his human side that wasn't speculation from fans?
Why did old Vergil want power from what's been confirmed by the game and not from fan speculation?

Now for new Vergil;
Motivation: He wanted to rule the human world as the new king of humanity to have the control he never had.
What he was doing: Lived with a rich family until they were killed and he created the Order.
Self hate: None. He was proud of both sides of his heritage.
Why the need for power: To have the control he never had and kill Dante for not only vengeance, but to prove his way was correct.

Just because his backstory is not laid out for us doesn't mean we can ignore or disparage his entire character.

Not ignoring, but pointing out holes that the director should've filled in the actual game, but didn't.

\I also won't listen to any more of that ''oh he's soo cliché, there are some anime characters who are a lot like him''. I'm sure that goes for old Dante too.

Yes, obviously. old Dante wasn't meant to be unique, just a tokken anime acton character #34352. Nothing more, nothing less. That's his appeal.

Or even Berial, Mundus, and any other character in the series. And even Mundus in DmC is like that, so... how can anyone seriously act like DmC is not cliché?

Who said DmC wasn't cliche? Of course it is. But for me, it's the cliche I like of the West. Is that bias? Yes. Do I care? no. But DMC is the cliche I don't like so yeah, I'll point it out just as I'll point out the cliches of DmC.

\ And you know... I. don't. care. Besides, new Vergil isn't great either. I personally don't see any reason to consider old Vergil to lack a personality or lack motivations or anything like that.

More power to you then. That doesn't change how I see old Vergil as bland and stereotypical anime villain.

Like TWOxACROSS said, he lacks a detailed backstory, but that's pretty much it.

Lacking a detailed back story makes a big difference in character motivations. Without that, there's no purpose, no drive, and no real feel for what the character is. Old Vergil gets by from the "coolness" factor, which isn't bad, but...come on.

Well I sure as hell wouldn't respect Beowulf if I were ****ed off like him when the ritual wouldn't work.

lol "Oh hey demon. I'm ****ed cause I didn't cut deep enough, I need a punching bag. You mind I use your soul and corpse?"

 

[TWOxACROSS]

Just because a character is multidimensional does not make him/her 'better'. You could be as multidimensional as can be, but still be boring in terms of mannerisms, style, etc etc. If that's the case, I'd rather take a two-dimensional character who's fun as a character, over a multidimensional character that has a detailed backstory and ****e but bores the crap out of me.

Oh of course, there's plenty of real life people who are total bags of sh!t. How you feel about a multidimensional character is completely subjective. My criticism is that Vergil is one-dimensional, lacking a lot of what could have made him a much better character. All of the fan's theories and headcanon make him a much more interesting character, but looking solely at all the facts laid out from the one game he's in - Vergil's lacking.

And there's no problem with liking such a character, not at all. However, that doesn't change the fact that storytellers should strive to make characters better than that.

I personally don't see any reason to consider old Vergil to lack a personality or lack motivations or anything like that. No reason to think he's an inferior character. Like TWOxACROSS said, he lacks a detailed backstory, but that's pretty much it.

Lack of a personality isn't a point of contention, we can obviously see his personality. The motivation is the problem, and it's part of the problem with him not having a detailed backstory. My criticism of classic Vergil is that despite his backstory being "the only thing missing" it creates a larger problem with the fact that he gets virtually no development to flesh him out. Vergil is just sorta there, wanting power and trying to get it. The why of it all is a huge missed opportunity, a giant blank space in his character.

Interestingly, what backstory Vergil has is actually insane because we know it via a piece of Dante's backstory.