Nero's origins - What do you think?

[V's patron]

Right now, Nero's origins along with the timeline, whatever DMC2 was about, what actually happened in Dante's childhood, and whats actually canon etc is in the writer that comes next's hands.

DMC4 isnt exactly forthcoming with details and the only details we know are from sources easily discarded, so they would be free to resolve them however they want, so they could use one of theories we stated or something entirely new.

 

[Loopy]

1. There is no proof that Vergil ages like normal humans.

DMC 1, Trish says: You're the man who lost a mother and a brother to evil twenty years ago, the son of the Legendary Dark Knight Sparda, Mr. Dante.
It's been 20 years since the attack that made Dante think Vergil was lost as a child, and Dante has aged, same as Vergil. Dante has not stayed looking 8 years old for 20 years, so he must age at a relative rate to humans. Same goes for Vergil. Maybe they reach adulthood and then age slowly after that? Who knows.

2. Vergil wanted power to defeat Mundus, and we saw he warned Lady to get out of his way, instead or remorsly killing her.

Vergil wanted power to gain the legacy of Sparda, prove himself over his human side inferiority, and prove he was superior over what stemmed from a traumatic childhood over not being able to save his mother from demons.

As for Lady, he wanted Arkham to kill her.
Arkahm says :I'm afraid I should ask the uninvited one to leave. That is what you want.

Vergil says: Why didn't you kill her? Perhaps, because she is your daughter? Did some pesky fatherly love get in your way?

He wanted Lady dead and thinks Arkham is weak for letting emotions get in the way. He didn't want to spare her. At that point in the game, Vergil was weak from bloodloss and already had a fight with Dante and Jester going on at the same time. Lady wasn't exactly a priority.

3. There is no implication Vergil hated his human half

Arkham insults Vergil about it.

Arkahm says:What about you? You're an incomplete being as well. Both demon and human blood mingle in your veins.

Then Vergil tells him to 'shut up'. He doesn't like being told that he's only half a demon, half human. He sees humans as weak, and his attitude in DMC3 proves it. He wants full power, demon power without the human side getting in the way. To him, humans are weak and full of emotion that gets in the way of gaining power.

Vergil says here: Why didn't you kill her? Perhaps, because she is your daughter? Did some pesky fatherly love get in your way?
To further your study of the black arts, you sacrificed your loving wife, to become a devil as well. Knowing this I thought you'd be more useful to me, but I was wrong. No wonder your attainment of power is incomplete.

There, he's saying that Arkham's humanity got in the way of him wanting to be a demon. Therefore, to Vergil, humanity and emotions are weakness to him. He doesn't like that.

There's also this that Arkham says to Vergil : You have lost... Because you've underestimated humans.

Even Arkham knows that Vergil doesn't regard humans with much respect and thinks they are weak.

Right now, Nero's origins along with the timeline, whatever DMC2 was about, what actually happened in Dante's childhood, and whats actually canon etc is in the writer that comes next's hands.

DMC4 isnt exactly forthcoming with details and the only details we know are from sources easily discarded, so they would be free to resolve them however they want, so they could use one of theories we stated or something entirely new.

Pretty much. They didn't go into this with a solid plan, so plot points are tacked on without much explaining, leading to messes like where Nero comes from. It wouldn've helped if they'd thought it through beforehand.

I wouldn't have minded if there was concrete evidence in the game about Nero; instead they release this important information in a guidebook that is in Japanese and hard to find outside of Japan. But do we take this guidebook as canon or one of many possible ideas?

 

[V's patron]

@Loopy

There was a light novel that fleshed out the events of 4 called Deadly Fortune so its canon but the writer left some room for different interpretations since Sanctus comes up with the assumption of nero being Vergil's kid himself rather than Vergil telling him that so it be wise to play with that moment, maybe that there is more to the story.

Maybe Nero is the son of an enemy of Sparda, Vergil wanted revenge so he steals Nero and denies a chance at getting to know his father, denying his father a legacy (yes its my preferred wish for Nero's origin). Since Nero's birth family are enemies of Sparda, having Nero raised in Fortuna is extra salt on the wounds, so to speak.

 

[Loopy]

@Loopy

There was a light novel that fleshed out the events of 4 called Deadly Fortune so its canon but the writer left some room for different interpretations since Sanctus comes up with the assumption of nero being Vergil's kid himself rather than Vergil telling him that so it be wise to play with that moment, maybe that there is more to the story.

Maybe Nero is the son of an enemy of Sparda, Vergil wanted revenge so he steals Nero and denies a chance at getting to know his father, denying his father a legacy (yes its my preferred wish for Nero's origin). Since Nero's birth family are enemies of Sparda, having Nero raised in Fortuna is extra salt on the wounds, so to speak.

Yes, I think that was the novel that gave life to those Vergil being with a prostitue stories.

But still, some debate the canon of it because of Morihashi Bingo not explaining or hinting at the novel events in the game. More like, the novel is treated as an afterthought to fill in holes. That and the fact that it is quite inaccessable to those outside Japan.

Then there's the most recent book released in Japan that right out says that Nero is Vergil's child, using the kanji 'ko'. But, even that is vague. I would've thought they'd be more specific, something like 'musuko', but they say just 'ko'. So who knows. Even the Japanese writers of these books aren't sure what's going on. So it's all a bit of a mess.

 

[sylvanas]

Okay. We've been through this before. Why not accept the fact that Nero is Vergil's son? They've already made that fact canon. Now explaining how Vergil could father a child at such a young age is their job. Although, I highly doubt they'll even bother to pick up the topic and explain it. That's good guy capcom for u.

 

[Innsmouth]

DMC 1, Trish says: You're the man who lost a mother and a brother to evil twenty years ago, the son of the Legendary Dark Knight Sparda, Mr. Dante.
It's been 20 years since the attack that made Dante think Vergil was lost as a child, and Dante has aged, same as Vergil. Dante has not stayed looking 8 years old for 20 years, so he must age at a relative rate to humans. Same goes for Vergil. Maybe they reach adulthood and then age slowly after that? Who knows.

It may be the case.

As for Lady, he wanted Arkham to kill her.
Arkahm says :I'm afraid I should ask the uninvited one to leave. That is what you want.

Vergil says: Why didn't you kill her? Perhaps, because she is your daughter? Did some pesky fatherly love get in your way?

He wanted Lady dead and thinks Arkham is weak for letting emotions get in the way. He didn't want to spare her. At that point in the game, Vergil was weak from bloodloss and already had a fight with Dante and Jester going on at the same time. Lady wasn't exactly a priority.

I don't think Vergil really cared about killing Lady. He just mocked Arkham for acting high and mighty. As for confrontation, he could have just kill him, instead of waste time and tell her to get out of his way, if she didn't wanted to be killed.

Then Vergil tells him to 'shut up'. He doesn't like being told that he's only half a demon, half human. He sees humans as weak, and his attitude in DMC3 proves it. He wants full power, demon power without the human side getting in the way. To him, humans are weak and full of emotion that gets in the way of gaining power.

Vergil says here: Why didn't you kill her? Perhaps, because she is your daughter? Did some pesky fatherly love get in your way?
To further your study of the black arts, you sacrificed your loving wife, to become a devil as well. Knowing this I thought you'd be more useful to me, but I was wrong. No wonder your attainment of power is incomplete.

There, he's saying that Arkham's humanity got in the way of him wanting to be a demon. Therefore, to Vergil, humanity and emotions are weakness to him. He doesn't like that.

Or he acts like he didn't like it. Don't forget it's all about mirror opposition in DMC3. Arkham is antipode of Sparda. He discarded his humanity, for greed, while Sparda sacrificed himself for humanity. It's true Vergil regarded humans weak. But who knows what could have happened to him, so maybe he ended up being with human.

I wouldn't have minded if there was concrete evidence in the game about Nero; instead they release this important information in a guidebook that is in Japanese and hard to find outside of Japan. But do we take this guidebook as canon or one of many possible ideas?

It's true. I can imagine they wanted to tell more about him, but it probably was discarded, because so many hated DMC4

 

[Chancey289]

1. There is no proof that Vergil ages like normal humans. 2. Vergil wanted power to defeat Mundus, and we saw he warned Lady to get out of his way, instead or remorsly killing her. 3. There is no implication Vergil hated his human half + there is also not a proof that Nero 3/4 demon. 4. Vergil died/was enslaved and it can happen shortly after his birth

Ok, seriously, for someone who calls himself a Devil May Cry fan you sure as hell don't know much about the series.
It's like common sense.

Vergil's entire generic character is set up around the whole idea of him despising his human side. He hates not completely being part of what he thinks is a superior lineage. I mean, just look back at all the sh!t he said in 3. I mean, he thinks that putting all emotions aside for the sake of power and sh!t is the way its supposed to be. And what's the common misconception about demons in Devil May Cry? That they can't feel emotions.

But of course that's not true because the first game not only tells us how Sparda was able to come to his own ideal for justice and decides to become the good guy of his own accord but, Trish cries for Dante in DMC 1 which is where the title comes from, Devil MAY Cry.

And Dante does age normally. Look back at DMC 1. Dante was 28 in the game. We are told he lost his family when he was 8. He lost them when he was a kid and look at him now. Like, DMC is not complex whatsoever. Its story and characters are about as complex as coloring books.

You sure you played the games? >_>

 

[Innsmouth]

Ok, seriously, for someone who calls himself a Devil May Cry fan you sure as hell don't know much about the series.
It's like common sense.

Vergil's entire generic character is set up around the whole idea of him despising his human side. He hates not completely being part of what he thinks is a superior lineage. I mean, just look back at all the sh!t he said in 3. I mean, he thinks that putting all emotions aside for the sake of power and sh!t is the way its supposed to be. And what's the common misconception about demons in Devil May Cry? That they can't feel emotions.

So it kinda makes sense, that Vergil isn't as cold as emotionless as he TRIES to be, which pretty much makes him much more complex, than you wanted to be.

And Dante does age normally. Look back at DMC 1. Dante was 28 in the game. We are told he lost his family when he was 8. He lost them when he was a kid and look at him now. Like, DMC is not complex whatsoever. Its story and characters are about as complex as coloring books.

You sure you played the games? >_>

Well, actually it's another plot hole. Because he looks older in DMC4 than in DMC1 and it doesn't add up because DMC1 set shortly before DMC4. Otherwise it don't really makes sense, since DMC3 has Dante on max. 20-22 which makes him 32 in DMC4. And now let's look at DMC2...which doesn't shows him much older than his DMC1 counterpart. Nobody tries to say DMC has complex plot. But than you just have to accept Nero is vergil's kid. Simple as that. No point to make fuss about it.

 

[Redxplatinum]

I prefer that Vergil invaded Nero's body and soul, seeing how much Nero wanted to protect Kyrie. Nero even stated "from that day forth... my arm changed" which may indicate that he wasn't born with demonic blood in him.

 

[Chancey289]

Vergil complex? No. Look, you need to stop thinking that what you perceive and all the implications you draw from this stuff is fact. Vergil is just the typical sibling rivalry trope that's been done dozens of times and he just has this lust for power all rolled up in that cold and ruthless anime villain that screams, been there, done that, got the T-shirt.

Devil May Cry's pretty much made up on nothing but cliches and typical anime tropes. That was also kind of the point. I mean, in DMC 1 Dante's attitude was inspired by the anime hero Cobra and his cheesy one liners and corny dialogue was all playing off this self aware over the top camp. Kind of like Ash from Evil Dead 2 and Army of Darkness.

What you think doesn't make it fact and no matter how much we bring up evidence you still just take what you think and argue like it even matters.

And Nero being Vergil's son is stupid. It doesn't fit the dude when he's the dude with hard ons for swords, not women. And it doesn't add up when you factor in how old they would be. And it's seriously just stupid lazy writing anyway if that does become the reality. That just means the writers seriously did have nothing important planned for this guy.

He was pointless in every sense of the word. He didn't even look that different from Dante. Like, seriously? They couldn't even visually make him his own character. Nero looks like he was a character someone decided to toss in hoping to pass some torch and when it didn't work out they didn't know where he stood.

So now he sits there probably never to be brought up again because no one liked this Dante clone. The walking plot hole that adds more to this f#cked up canon already riddled with plot holes and continuity issues.

I can believe him being some kind of reincarnation of Vergil but not his son.

 

[Innsmouth]

Vergil complex? No. Look, you need to stop thinking that what you perceive and all the implications you draw from this stuff is fact. Vergil is just the typical sibling rivalry trope that's been done dozens of times and he just has this lust for power all rolled up in that cold and ruthless anime villain that screams, been there, done that, got the T-shirt.

Devil May Cry's pretty much made up on nothing but cliches and typical anime tropes. That was also kind of the point. I mean, in DMC 1 Dante's attitude was inspired by the anime hero Cobra and his cheesy one liners and corny dialogue was all playing off this self aware over the top camp. Kind of like Ash from Evil Dead 2 and Army of Darkness.

What you think doesn't make it fact and no matter how much we bring up evidence you still just take what you think and argue like it even matters.

And Nero being Vergil's son is stupid. It doesn't fit the dude when he's the dude with hard ons for swords, not women. And it doesn't add up when you factor in how old they would be. And it's seriously just stupid lazy writing anyway if that does become the reality. That just means the writers seriously did have nothing important planned for this guy.

He was pointless in every sense of the word. He didn't even look that different from Dante. Like, seriously? They couldn't even visually make him his own character. Nero looks like he was a character someone decided to toss in hoping to pass some torch and when it didn't work out they didn't know where he stood.

So now he sits there probably never to be brought up again because no one liked this Dante clone. The walking plot hole that adds more to this f#cked up canon already riddled with plot holes and continuity issues.

I can believe him being some kind of reincarnation of Vergil but not his son.

*sigh*. I already see you just bend over on b*tching and moaning about original DMC. That's fine. PLease continue. Luckily all those people who liked Vergil since DMC3 don't give a damn. Also no one liked Nero...lol. once again talking for a whole world, to satisfy your petty ego. Seriously. Until you start acting as grown up, i see no sense explaining people, who act as arrogant kids, why their point isn't the only one that matters in the whole world.

 

[Chancey289]

The biggest problem too what I always had a problem with when it came to the DMC series and how they told the stories as that EVERYTHING revolves around Sparda and his family tree.

Sparda isn't a character, he's a damn plot device and that's it.

And making everything tie in with Sparda and his bloodline just makes the whole world seem smaller. It never goes beyond that and is just lazy shorthand "destiny" writing.

To have all your characters connect out of the gate instead of actually developing them just because it's easier.

 

[Innsmouth]

I prefer that Vergil invaded Nero's body and soul, seeing how much Nero wanted to protect Kyrie. Nero even stated "from that day forth... my arm changed" which may indicate that he wasn't born with demonic blood in him.

I kinda thought he was reincarnation or something, but since writer thinks he's Vergil's kid, we had to take it with grain of salt.[DOUBLEPOST=1401404820][/DOUBLEPOST]

The biggest problem too what I always had a problem with when it came to the DMC series and how they told the stories as that EVERYTHING revolves around Sparda and his family tree.

Sparda isn't a character, he's a damn plot device and that's it.

And making everything tie in with Sparda and his bloodline just makes the whole world seem smaller. It never goes beyond that and is just lazy shorthand "destiny" writing.

To have all your characters connect out of the gate instead of actually developing them just because it's easier.

DMC is pulp fiction. It's bend on certain characters. It's like you never see GoW without Kratos, or Uncharted without Drake. It's basically one-hero story. Besides, it's not necessary a bad thing to move in smaller writing room. They tried expanding RE and it become unbearable mess. DMC is the story of certain demon hunters so of course everything connects back to him. Another example is Supernatural. All is about single family, so of course all stories in the end ties with them.

 

[Chancey289]

*sigh*. I already see you just bend over on b*tching and moaning about original DMC. That's fine. PLease continue. Luckily all those people who liked Vergil since DMC3 don't give a damn. Also no one liked Nero...lol. once again talking for a whole world, to satisfy your petty ego. Seriously. Until you start acting as grown up, i see no sense explaining people, who act as arrogant kids, why their point isn't the only one that matters in the whole world.

Are you for real?

Alright, eff this. Before I lose any brain cells to this mofo I'm just gonna stop because you're hopeless.

I hate stupid people. :banghead:

 

[Innsmouth]

Are you for real?

Alright, eff this. Before I lose any brain cells to this mofo I'm just gonna stop because you're hopeless.

I hate stupid people. :banghead:

Well, that makes 2 of us

 

[V's patron]

@Loopy -
To be fair, the other novels arent reflected in their respective games either so i guess it depends on how these transmedia attempts are handled by Capcom.

Since he was the writer for 3/4 and had some role in the anime, so thats a sign it should be canon till someone else messes with it.

 

[Chancey289]

I'm the stupid one? :meh:

I can write. Using words and phrases properly. I also get what's being talked about. You shrug off everything people tell you even when they're proving you wrong with your own stupid nonsense. Why the hell do you think most people are freaking telling you otherwise? It's not just me, get this through your thick skull!

You're assuming I don't like the DMC series which is wrong. I do! I love it! But I'm not gonna sit there and try to make excuses and justify things it did wrong! You seriously act like it doesn't do any wrong where even the most hardcore fans will tell you the story telling and writing were never its strongest suit and in the process it messed up its own canon and doesn't make sense unless it wipes DMC 1 off the map completely.

And when I complained about it revolving around nothing but this bloodline, it's me complaining about how the writers literally just never bother to think of anything else for them. Dante is always dealing with some problem caused by some shoehorned connection to Sparda. Like I said, Sparda isn't a character but a cheap plot device.

Does Batman have all his villains linking to his parent's death or do the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles have all their villains trace back to them? No. They are all one part of a bigger picture. A bigger world.

When Dante stays pinned down to nothing but Sparda plotlines then it never goes anywhere. It makes the world feel small, like there isn't more depth to it. Like there isn't something else. This weird city in DMC 4 was a start to expand on the universe but nope. What happens? Everything goes right back to Sparda because OF F#CKING COURSE.

DMC:"Storytelling and character development is hard!"

 

[TWOxACROSS]

DMC is pulp fiction. It's bend on certain characters. It's like you never see GoW without Kratos, or Uncharted without Drake. It's basically one-hero story. Besides, it's not necessary a bad thing to move in smaller writing room. They tried expanding RE and it become unbearable mess. DMC is the story of certain demon hunters so of course everything connects back to him. Another example is Supernatural. All is about single family, so of course all stories in the end ties with them.

Gotta just chime in here and say that despite Devil May Cry, God of War, and Uncharted having a pervasive hero through their respective series, God of War and Uncharted had worlds larger in scope than just what those characters were connected to - things larger than just them. Well, I'm not so sure about God of War, since it's always just been about Kratos raging at someone for something, but at least not everything was solely based on his past as a Spartan and how he was tricked into killing his family. Uncharted, especially, has a main character of a profession that allowed him to have many grand adventures that barely had anything to really do with him in particular, aside from Drake's Deception which gave us a lot of backstory on Drake himself.

Supernatural, though? I'd have to disagree slightly, since there are plenty of episodes that have little to do with the Winchesters themselves.

Resident Evil, however, became a mess because it relied so heavily on a specific element that when removed it was difficult to actually keep the regular theme without propping up pale shadows of the same thing over and over. How many seedy organizations can the heroes topple, how many more outbreaks can the world suffer, before it all just gets boring and routine - like it did.

The complaint that classic Sparda is a plot device is extremely strong, because every game except for DMc2 (ironically) and DmC focused on how Dante was always second fiddle to his father's exploits. It's enough to cause a conflict for players to jump into go hit stuff, but having so much throw back to Sparda gets real boring, real fast.

Dante is a demon hunter, there are plenty of stories they could tell without Sparda being a plot element, just like Supernatural. Or sh!t, as boring and generic as the DMC anime was, they showed Dante dealing with things that weren't connected to Sparda. They could have focused on building more lore, like DMC2 ended up doing. There's so much more to the world than Sparda, so much potential, and they just keep running right back him like a security blanket.

There's a whole helluva lot they could do if they put their minds to it.

 

[Innsmouth]

Gotta just chime in here and say that despite Devil May Cry, God of War, and Uncharted having a pervasive hero through their respective series, God of War and Uncharted had worlds larger in scope than just what those characters were connected to - things larger than just them. Well, I'm not so sure about God of War, since it's always just been about Kratos raging at someone for something, but at least not everything was solely based on his past as a Spartan and how he was tricked into killing his family. Uncharted, especially, has a main character of a profession that allowed him to have many grand adventures that barely had anything to really do with him in particular, aside from Drake's Deception which gave us a lot of backstory on Drake himself.

Supernatural, though? I'd have to disagree slightly, since there are plenty of episodes that have little to do with the Winchesters themselves.

Resident Evil, however, became a mess because it relied so heavily on a specific element that when removed it was difficult to actually keep the regular theme without propping up pale shadows of the same thing over and over. How many seedy organizations can the heroes topple, how many more outbreaks can the world suffer, before it all just gets boring and routine - like it did.

The complaint that classic Sparda is a plot device is extremely strong, because every game except for DMc2 (ironically) and DmC focused on how Dante was always second fiddle to his father's exploits. It's enough to cause a conflict for players to jump into go hit stuff, but having so much throw back to Sparda gets real boring, real fast.

Dante is a demon hunter, there are plenty of stories they could tell without Sparda being a plot element, just like Supernatural. Or sh!t, as boring and generic as the DMC anime was, they showed Dante dealing with things that weren't connected to Sparda. They could have focused on building more lore, like DMC2 ended up doing. There's so much more to the world than Sparda, so much potential, and they just keep running right back him like a security blanket.

There's a whole helluva lot they could do if they put their minds to it.

Supernatural, despite initially having episodes not related on Winchesters, since part 3 was more and more relying on them, and currently, all unrelated stories are pretty much died off. GoW completely relies on Kratos. Whole human world only exists as his playground in his attempt to murder everything that comes his way. As for Sparda, he's part of the lore. Think about Church of Humanity in Dead Space. It's one of the most crucial organization and everything in DS world connected to it in the end. Yet it's creator only part of the lore and not a character on his own accord. It's like Witcher books, where you have feeling everything is complex and big, only to discover in the last book, that basically all in the world bend on few short stories about Geralt and his deeds during them.
I also think it would be cool to get some fresh enemies and stories in DMC without bending on lineage, that's why i think idea of Sparda's prequel or return of Munduss would be really bad. In the end pretty much every franchise relies heavily on single protagonist. As for Uncharted, yes, you're right it has big world. BUT, think for a moment, almost all Nathan's stories are somehow connected to Drake's explorations. So it basically falls into same cathegory. It's not that they making something completely Drake's unrelated. That's why i respect Bioshock so much, because it basically have courage, to do something entirely not Rapture unrelated (well for the most part).
But welp, pulp fiction is what it is. In the end either people like it or don't[DOUBLEPOST=1401441234][/DOUBLEPOST]

I'm the stupid one? :meh:

I can write. Using words and phrases properly. I also get what's being talked about. You shrug off everything people tell you even when they're proving you wrong with your own stupid nonsense. Why the hell do you think most people are freaking telling you otherwise? It's not just me, get this through your thick skull!

You're assuming I don't like the DMC series which is wrong. I do! I love it! But I'm not gonna sit there and try to make excuses and justify things it did wrong! You seriously act like it doesn't do any wrong where even the most hardcore fans will tell you the story telling and writing were never its strongest suit and in the process it messed up its own canon and doesn't make sense unless it wipes DMC 1 off the map completely.

Considering that 1/3 of your writings consists of swearing and b*tching I saw 14-years old kids who write more intelligent texts than you. Alone when you tell "nobody likes" you basically decide for everyone, which proves nothing but your own egocentrism. You have no clue how characters are "ticking" with people. Considering somebody lame and uninteresting because of your own criteria, while it's one of the most popular characters in whole franchise, and than proceeding to tell that it's established fact proves that you can't see past your tin-foiled hat. And "loving franchise?" Please, spare it. If you love something you won't waste time sitting and writing half-page complaints about how everything in game is lame. I haven't saw you saying a single good thing about franchise (well except of DmC of course ). I never told DMC is absolutely perfect, i also don't consider it broken abysmal mess you claims it to be.

 

[Chancey289]

I'm just brutally honest if I have to and if you're acting like an obnoxious idiot then I see no reason to sugarcoat and be nice. We're not talking about DmC so talking about the original series here and where it goof is just simply staying on topic. No, I don't think DmC is perfect. My favorite of all Devil May Cry games is still the original. The very first game.

I just have this thing where if I'm a fan of something I won't sit there and try to justify or make excuses for all the wrong it does. I'll call it out just so it gets better.

And never once do we consider the series abysmal. I still love it as it's one of my favorite video game franchises next to franchises like MGS, MegaMan, and Zelda. But you're seriously just getting a bunch of crap wrong which for one makes me question how much of this series have you actually played. Yo, no one sees your points because we don't have our heads that far up our butts.