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30 Fps, Problem?

Razyel said:
24 fps is the limit, below that you can see the separate frames .
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So with the 30fps, it's only a problem for those that want to make videos with the clips and slow some of them down. Though I know that my program, when I tell it to slow a clip, it also gives the option to smooth out the video, so it repairs the problem. In gameplay, I doubt it really makes a difference unless you think about it so much you believe there's a major difference.

I really have to thank my brother. We talked about this a couple weeks ago.
 
23.976 FPS is what's used in film, if I remember correctly, and there's a somewhat noticeable difference between that just barely hazy feeling and 30 FPS. But even with a keen eye the difference between 30 and 60 FPS is more of a natural reaction than a functional limit- they've built this game around the fact that they need to make the frames count, anyway.

And honestly, if you can't pull off a just guard on Turbo, you're just not trying hard enough. :P
 
FPS matter and the fact that a series that has always been at 60 fps is now at 30 fps really does suck. 4-10 year old games being more fluid than this game say what??? There's a reason why most fighting games are at 60 fps, to maintain responsiveness and fluidity. The only way they could possibly make the game "feel" like 60 fps is to reduce the input lag compared to normal 30 fps games.

The industry standard for this gen is around 30 fps unfortunately and it pains me to see a great gaming franchise sink to those levels. Thank god the PC version will be at 60fps...
 
Did Devil May Cry 1 and 2 have 60 FPS? Just wondering if anybody knows, since I honestly can't tell. :P

Maybe when the next PlayStation comes out, we'll get the dynamic environments and 60 FPS. Who knows? In the meantime, it would be interesting to see if anyone gets a console and PC version (perhaps if there will be a PC demo) and does an honest comparison.
 
scionicspectre said:
23.976 FPS is what's used in film, if I remember correctly, and there's a somewhat noticeable difference between that just barely hazy feeling and 30 FPS. But even with a keen eye the difference between 30 and 60 FPS is more of a natural reaction than a functional limit- they've built this game around the fact that they need to make the frames count, anyway.

And honestly, if you can't pull off a just guard on Turbo, you're just not trying hard enough. :P
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Funny that the FPS used in film is lower than the rate we see at.

To me it really doesn't make much of a difference. Then again I don't care enough about that to notice.

I tried to see what the FPS was for DMC 1 and 2, and couldn't find anything. Everything's about DmC, instead. It looks like it's really ruffled some feathers.
 
EllDawn said:
Funny that the FPS used in film is lower than the rate we see at.

To me it really doesn't make much of a difference. Then again I don't care enough about that to notice.

I tried to see what the FPS was for DMC 1 and 2, and couldn't find anything. Everything's about DmC, instead. It looks like it's really ruffled some feathers.
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Basically it makes no difference since the difference is so small :P

Edit:
Fighting games don't require dynamic environments, Tekken 6 runs at 60 fps yet the Hack n slash mode seems much slower and unresponsive and really ugly. Like I said before, the difference is so small even in fighting games that it makes no big difference, responsiveness has nothing to do with the fluidity of the picture. It's eye candy and marketing gimmick,

 
FPS have nothing to do with speed, but fluidity. I don't know if a human brain can act upon 1/60th of a second... it's way too fast, so we might be able to see the difference but I don't believe it matters much when it comes to exact inputs and stuff.

If the game was created around 30 fps, then I'm sure that people will be able to play just fine with it at that capacity. Just like how some people may not be able to play DMC4 on 30 fps because it is a game that was made to work with 60... therefore, the moves and such are done in a way that works well with the frames... just like DmC will do with 30.

To tell the truth, I think the 60 fps PC version will look and feel almost identical to the 30 fps one... unless they add more frames to Dante's animations (which would mean they might recreate the moveset all over again).
 
I doubt they'd want to recreate his moveset for the PC version. It would probably be too much frustration.

So, there really isn't any reason for people to be upset over the FPS when it's something that's not going to be recognizable. It's just something else to be complained about.

Gotta love people (being sarcastic).
 
EllDawn said:
Not really. Then again, when I have a movie going, I don't really pay attention to it. I just have it there for background noise.
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Wait what? You must be kidding right? Why would you play a movie and not watch the damn thing :D .
Anyways you should notice this if you are watching a movie and in the movie someone is playing a video camera shot.

Halloween resurrection for example has video camera shots and normal movie camera shots mixed, the movie in itself is an insult to John Carpenter though :/
 
Razyel said:
Wait what? You must be kidding right? Why would you play a movie and not watch the damn thing :D .
Anyways you should notice this if you are watching a movie and in the movie someone is playing a video camera shot.

Halloween resurrection for example has video camera shots and normal movie camera shots mixed, the movie in itself is an insult to John Carpenter though :/
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lol. I am not kidding. Most of the time I'm just listening to the movie and then chatting online or playing a game on the computer. The only time I don't want my attention divided is when I'm playing a game on a console, or reading. I have a brother that does the exact same thing. We still understand the story, and then watch when someone's being killed. We watch a lot of violent films.

I might have noticed that, but can't really think of it right now. I do know that looking at an old TV through a camera will produce a line that goes up the screen because of the difference in frame rate. You don't get the same effect with the current TVs.
 
AngelMode said:
FPS have nothing to do with speed, but fluidity. I don't know if a human brain can act upon 1/60th of a second... it's way too fast, so we might be able to see the difference but I don't believe it matters much when it comes to exact inputs and stuff.
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FPS does affect input lag in that having a 60 fps game will have significantly less input lag than a 30 fps game. Like I said why do you think fighting games are at 60 fps, because reactions and responsiveness are very important in fighting games. There are ways to reduce input lag for 30 fps games but it still won't be near 60 fps game levels. You wonder why people like COD over most fpses is probably because it runs at 60 fps compared to battlefield.

I'm an avid computer gamer as well and I can tell you playing any computer game below 60 fps has noticeable effect on input lag and your ability to respond....
 
Well someone might say I'm weird because I don't watch TV at all. I use my TV mainly for gaming and watching DVDs or Blu-Rays.
:lol:
Dominus said:
FPS does affect input lag in that having a 60 fps game will have significantly less input lag than a 30 fps game. Like I said why do you think fighting games are at 60 fps, because reactions and responsiveness are very important in fighting games. There are ways to reduce input lag for 30 fps games but it still won't be near 60 fps game levels. You wonder why people like COD over most fpses is probably because it runs at 60 fps compared to battlefield.


I'm an avid computer gamer as well and I can tell you playing any computer game below 60 fps has noticeable effect on input lag and your ability to respond....
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Dude I've played both, MW3 and BF3 and there is no lag in BF3 responsiveness, or are you saying that in theory, lightning becomes slower when watched on 30 fps. The time between your button press and what happens on the screen is just as fast whether it is 30 fps or 60 fps.

I think that fighting games are at 60 fps because they don't lose anything in the process since nobody expects them to have great environments. I don't think that they become easier to play, just more beautiful and fluid.
 
Razyel said:
Well someone might say I'm weird because I don't watch TV at all. I use my TV mainly for gaming and watching DVDs or Blu-Rays.
:lol:


Dude I've played both, MW3 and BF3 and there is no lag in BF3 responsiveness, or are you saying that in theory, lightning becomes slower when watched on 30 fps. The time between your button press and what happens on the screen is just as fast whether it is 30 fps or 60 fps.

I think that fighting games are at 60 fps because they don't lose anything in the process since nobody expects them to have great environments. I don't think that they become easier to play, just more beautiful and fluid.
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Please don't spread misinformation: http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/130359/programming_responsiveness.php?print=1

little snippet:
So if we are running at 30fps, then the lag is 3/30th or one-tenth of a second. If we are running at 60fps, then the lag will be 3/60th or 1/20th of a second.
This calculation illustrates a common misconception about the difference between 60fps and 30fps games. Since the difference between these two frame rates is just 1/60th of a second, people assume that the difference in responsiveness will also be 1/60th.
But in fact, going from 60 to 30 does not just add a vsync to your lag, it acts as a multiplier, doubling the length of the process pipeline that's responsible for lag. In our ideal example in Figure 1, it adds 3/60ths of a second, not 1/60th. If the event pipeline is longer, which it quite possibly can be, it can add even more.

Basically if you find a way to optimize when the input is recieved, processed and displayed you can reduce input lag (from what i read), but still not comparable to 60 fps.

And I guess I was wrong to state reaction wise, but rather responsiveness is the reason fighting games are at 60 fps. Its what their 2d counterparts were around.
 
I'm not trying to deny any facts here, and like I said if I'd play 30 fps and 60 fps games side by side, I'd see the difference, however if you are saying that people are choosing games over whether it runs at 60 fps or 30 fps, I dunno what you are.

And that little article of yours claims that it takes 3-4 frames to do something in for example DmC, then if I'd for example change weapons suddenly wouldn't I start to see the empty frames in between, if not then what's the problem?

Believe me I'd take 60 fps any day over 30 fps, if I wouldn't lose anything in the process, but responsiveness is just as much clever design as framerates.

Heck why can't they process and render in just one frame or half a frame or something, you are the tech nerd here so explain that to me :)
 
Razyel said:
Heck why can't they process and render in just one frame or half a frame or something, you are the tech nerd here so explain that to me :)
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Because 120th of a second is quite a lot for a CPU to receive input, manage devices and communicate between hardware, perform calculations and output it's results all while processing other information as well.

Rendering and processing are NOT the same as input lag.
Here I'll put input lag in a simple example (there is more to it than this)that you can understand.

You have two games, one at 60fps, the other at 30. However the hardware running them is the same. Having the same hardware means they perform the same actions the same speed and output at the same time. But think if the data was ready to be inputted at the start of the frame, the 30fps game would need to wait a 30th of a second to output the data (waiting for the frame to end) whereas the 60fps will be able to display it sooner as it refreshes it's frames faster.

Like I said there is a lot more to it than that, but I think that should help people visualize it more.

EDIT: @Dominus I believe it is possible to write directly to certain system components when coding in OOP or at least allocate certain functions, this would increase processing efficiency in theory but I'm not experienced enough yet to say one way or another, most of my projects have either been so low quality they haven't pushed hardware enough or procedural instead of Object Orientated. If someone would elaborate on resource management that would be great. As I don't want to confuse anyone with mis-information.
I would also argue that whatever ways you can maximise efficiency with a 30fps game whether through hardware or software should also be applicable with a 60fps game.
 
I think one thing that often goes unmentioned is that they aren't taking a 60 fps game and making it 30... they're making a 30 fps game from the ground up. Ideally, yes, it would be better if this game ran at 60 fps, but the game was designed knowing that it wasn't going to be at 60. And that alone is pretty important. It means from the beginning they can design the game and how it feels and responds based on what it runs at.
 
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