30 Fps, Problem?

[Dominus]

I think one thing that often goes unmentioned is that they aren't taking a 60 fps game and making it 30... they're making a 30 fps game from the ground up. Ideally, yes, it would be better if this game ran at 60 fps, but the game was designed knowing that it wasn't going to be at 60. And that alone is pretty important. It means from the beginning they can design the game and how it feels and responds based on what it runs at.

I have a hard time taking in Capcom's PR bullshit. This article says they are making adjustments to button responsiveness but they aren't being specific at all about what they are doing.. They claim they are adding motion blurs which will not affect input lag (only the visual look). Then Itsuno claims in this same article that 60 fps has a tiring effect on your eyes( its continuous)... So now I take the button responsiveness claims with a grain of salt..

On the other hand, the Need for Speed developers were honest about what they were doing to combat the problems of input lag when they made their next game run at 30fps:
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/digitalfoundry-tech-focus-battle-against-latency
snippet:
The result is quite extraordinary. Criterion's last major game, Burnout Paradise, ran at 60FPS and offered a 66ms input lag. Need for Speed: Hot Pursuit, capped at 30FPS offers an 83ms response: just one additional frame of latency for a game running at half the frame-rate of its predecessor. The PC version was faster still, measured at an incredible 50ms of end-to-end lag.
"The way the architecture works is to run the game simulation internally at 60FPS, and it's polling the controller once for every simulation step so you get as up-to-date inputs as possible," Criterion tech mastermind, Alex Fry

NT could still be doing something but the fact that they aren't transparent about it probably points to Capcom spewing PR bullshit. But hey believe what you want..

 

[Grey-Frog]

But I didn't quote or mention anything from Capcom or their PR, =/. Just that they knew from the start they were making a 30 fps game... which well... they had to know. There's no debating that. I'm not even saying that running at 30 fps is a good thing, I said that 60 fps would be better.

Listen man, I'm new here and I'm certainly not looking to make bad impressions or start any arguments (I lurked on this board for a few weeks to make sure this is a place where those type of things didn't happen all the time), but judging by your reply and the language you used; "Capcom PR Bullshit" and "Believe what you want", you're making yourself sound very aggressive and like you're not interested in debating anything about the game or giving any argument about 30 fps a chance. You just sound angry and like you have a bone to pick with Capcom... and well, I'm not Capcom and I'm not defending Capcom.

 

[Dominus]

Listen man, I'm new here and I'm certainly not looking to make bad impressions or start any arguments (I lurked on this board for a few weeks to make sure this is a place where those type of things didn't happen all the time), but judging by your reply and the language you used; "Capcom PR Bullshit" and "Believe what you want", you're making yourself sound very aggressive and like you're not interested in debating anything about the game or giving any argument about 30 fps a chance. You just sound angry and like you have a bone to pick with Capcom... and well, I'm not Capcom and I'm not defending Capcom.

That's fine that you don't want to debate the issue and I i should have been more clear that Capcom's bullshit PR is their bullshit and not yours (my bad), but to claim that I'm not interested in debating anything about the game is ludicrous. In this whole thread I am the only one who has quoted specific Capcom PR quotes and provided evidence on why 60fps is better than 30 fps in terms of responsiveness. On the contrary some people have provided no such evidence or citations for their statements:

The time between your button press and what happens on the screen is just as fast whether it is 30 fps or 60 fps.

I think that fighting games are at 60 fps because they don't lose anything in the process since nobody expects them to have great environments. I don't think that they become easier to play, just more beautiful and fluid.

Claiming that 60fps games and 30fps have no difference in response time is FALSE. I even provided an article that explains the issue well, which I hope people read or found different articles on the issue. I even explained how NT could possibly reduce the input lag like another developer did going from 60fps to 30fps. So I'm fine debating the issues as long as the people who are debating with my provide evidence for their claims.

 

[Grey-Frog]

That's not what I meant, I meant your posts seem very aggressive and mean-spirited. I'm sure that isn't your intent but your words give it that appearance and I would be willing to bet other people here feel that way as well. The type of language you use and general feel of your replies are not so much that you're not interested in debating, it's that you're not interested in hearing anyone debate you.

Using words like "bullshit", saying you're the only one who posts evidence and calling out other people that you don't agree with so strongly doesn't paint a pretty picture. I'm not saying you don't have to believe what you say is true or that you're the only one doing these things; but it can really help your cause to hold back at times. You don't need to hold back your arguments, but you could hold back the language you use against those you argue against and not call them out if you feel they didn't support their claims with enough information

There's no reason you have to be nicer or sugarcoat your replies of course... but in my time online I've found doing so usually helps your cause more than not doing so.

We need people to complain about DmC, Capcom and gaming in general. DmC looks great to me but it's not perfect, and we should always strive to let these companies know they can do better and that we know when they are taking shortcuts. But how you say it can often be just as if not more important than what you say.

 

[Dominus]

saying you're the only one who posts evidence and calling out other people that you don't agree with so strongly doesn't paint a pretty picture.

In this whole thread I am the only one who has quoted specific Capcom PR quotes and provided evidence on why 60fps is better than 30 fps in terms of responsiveness. On the contrary some people have provided no such evidence or citations for their statements

This statement is true I said I'm the only one who has posted Capcom PR quotes and provided evidence about 60fps vs 30 fps RESPONSIVENESS beyond just one's subjective experience. Spawnshooter also provided some good points too, but those were from his own subjective experience (like other evidence in this thread). I guess in his case because he has experience with coding it could be considered "objective".

And I will call out other people if they make blatantly false statements, like

The time between your button press and what happens on the screen is just as fast whether it is 30 fps or 60 fps.

Should I not point out that's false?

But you seem to be missing the point. Beyond one badly worded first reply to you, all my posts have provided important information through outside links on the subject matter. You seem to completely ignore these points and instead focus on the "aggressiveness" of my posts while ignoring other false replies.. If that isn't thread derailing then I don't know what is!

 

[Grey-Frog]

But you seem to be missing the point. Beyond one badly worded first reply to you, all my posts have provided important information through outside links on the subject matter. You seem to completely ignore these points and instead focus on the "aggressiveness" of my posts while ignoring other false replies.. If that isn't thread derailing then I don't know what is!

I didn't ignore your posts, I didn't respond to them because I never disagreed with you at all about the 60 fps. But ok, I will leave this topic to you.

 

[EllDawn]

If it helps, here's what it looks like Grey-Frog is saying. You seem more like you're attacking, rather than debating. The language you use is a major indicator. If you've ever been in a debate team, or watched, the participants are calm and their language reflects it. This is what it sounds like he's asking you to do, prove that you're being calm by not swearing and looking like you're upset.

The topic isn't really something that game fans would have technical knowledge of, not unless they actually work with video imaging. I, for one, don't understand how doubling the number of images would make the response faster because of the fact it's taking up more memory which usually slows things down. The FPS doesn't even bother me, anyway. As long as the game works, I don't care.

 

[Dusk Stalker]

Here found this if it helps shed some light:

 

[chocolateghost79]

Here found this if it helps shed some light:

The problem with this comparison is that the DMC4 part is sped up to turbo mode, while the DmC footage is not.

 

[Dusk Stalker]

The problem with this comparison is that the DMC4 part is sped up to turbo mode, while the DmC footage is not.

Yeah i know, but their are bushels of other videos out their without turbo mode.

 

[chocolateghost79]

Yeah i know, but their are bushels of other videos out their without turbo mode.

And DmC compares quite nicely to them. If you want to compare speed of gameplay I can direct you to a more accurate presentation I did a few months ago.

 

[Dusk Stalker]

And DmC compares quite nicely to them. If you want to compare speed of gameplay I can direct you to a more accurate presentation I did a few months ago.

If you send me link, I will be more then happy to take a look.

 

[chocolateghost79]

If you send me link, I will be more then happy to take a look.

Of course. And to make it a more accurate comparison I only used pre-release footage from DMC4 and DMC3 just like DmC's videos.
Here it is:

 

[Dominus]

If it helps, here's what it looks like Grey-Frog is saying. You seem more like you're attacking, rather than debating. The language you use is a major indicator. If you've ever been in a debate team, or watched, the participants are calm and their language reflects it. This is what it sounds like he's asking you to do, prove that you're being calm by not swearing and looking like you're upset.
.

Im going to go against my better judgement and derail the thread but:

Also we aren't debating in a public forum, we are debating on the Internet. And "bullshit" was the only swear word I used. I'd say the only person I could have deemed being aggressive towards was Grey-Frog and I apologize for that but the rest of my responses were in no way aggressive, and to dismiss the facts of those posts over a couple aggressively worded posts is ridiculous. Also if this was a debate in say the British Parliament you wouldn't get your point across by pointing out the other guy sounded "mean".

The topic isn't really something that game fans would have technical knowledge of, not unless they actually work with video imaging. I, for one, don't understand how doubling the number of images would make the response faster because of the fact it's taking up more memory which usually slows things down. The FPS doesn't even bother me, anyway. As long as the game works, I don't care.

I provided some good links in this thread which explain the issue well, and its true that the issue doesn't phase everyone but for fans of the series that reveled in the complex combat system it is important to them.

 

[Dominus]

The problem with this comparison is that the DMC4 part is sped up to turbo mode, while the DmC footage is not.

I sincerely hope DmC has a turbo mode because after playing turbo mode on both dmc3 and dmc4(PC version) I can't go back to normal speed.

 

[chocolateghost79]

I sincerely hope DmC has a turbo mode because after playing turbo mode on both dmc3 and dmc4(PC version) I can't go back to normal speed.

It would be a great addition, I also hope they include it.

 

[Dusk Stalker]

Of course. And to make it a more accurate comparison I only used pre-release footage from DMC4 and DMC3 just like DmC's videos.
Here it is:

well so far it shows its smooth....But it shows its flaws in the Stinger/Trillion Stab and Launch, and a bit in Osiris.

 

[chocolateghost79]

well so far it shows its smooth....But it shows its flaws in the Stinger/Trillion Stab and Launch, and a bit in Osiris.

Well thanks for taking the time to watch, and I agree there can definitely be work on some things as I showed.

 

[ZeroLove]

In the end, it doesn't matter. Devil May Cry is not a competitive game. It isn't part of the competetive scene. It has no tournaments, no prizes to win, no honours to gain. Only brag rights by those who care, who are by the way a minority, an insignificance. Unlike fighting games.

If you need 60fps to enjoy a game, then you got it cut out for you... DmC is not it. And even if it did run at 60fps, would you guys who complain about this silly little problem buy it anyways? Is this one thing enough for you to not get it, even if you like everything else you have seen? Or is this just one more thing you can find to complain about in your search of the many "problems" there are with this game?

Is this really that important to you? And if so... Why?

 

[lorddemolatron]

In the end, it doesn't matter. Devil May Cry is not a competitive game. It isn't part of the competetive scene. It has no tournaments, no prizes to win, no honours to gain. Only brag rights by those who care, who are by the way a minority, an insignificance. Unlike fighting games.

If you need 60fps to enjoy a game, then you got it cut out for you... DmC is not it. And even if it did run at 60fps, would you guys who complain about this silly little problem buy it anyways? Is this one thing enough for you to not get it, even if you like everything else you have seen? Or is this just one more thing you can find to complain about in your search of the many "problems" there are with this game?

Is this really that important to you? And if so... Why?

Some people dreams about games that they will be in game ultra fast combat.