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The Truth Around Lilith's Death *spoilers*

I pretend X-2 doesn't exist.

About Red Dead Redemption though, that's what makes the ending so feel worthy. John Marston dies very tragically. He wanted to leave the life of an outlaw behind him and the government forces him to go and kill the people he once looked at as family. That was harsh for John all together just because at one point they were his friends. Then when John does exactly what the agents ask of him and they still kill him. Edgar Ross specifically says he would never bother John again and safely return his family if he did this for them. Thing is, the government use such underhanded tactics to lure John in a sense to think it's over but, since John was still formally an outlaw they kill him anyway. They force him to kill his friends and then decide to not fufill their end of the bargain anyway. It was dirty.

The ending scene with Jack Marston taking revenge just adds more to the sense that there is no redemption. John did not want his son to take the same path he did. At the end of RDR when Jack takes his revenge that just seals the deal that Jack couldn't let it go and thus goes on the path John wanted his son so desperately avoid. Rockstar knows how to tell a damn good story and because it goes out on such a tragic note instead of some happy ending. It's all the more meaningful how a such a well developed and likable character like John Marston who was a good guy and wanted to leave a life a bloodshed behind is forced to commit these terrible deeds because he has no other choice and in the end is just murdered like he was nothing. It was sad but damn good. Very few companies can only dream to have the story telling prowess and talent Rockstar has when it comes to delivering a damn good story.
 
Sorry, Chancy. I like Endings where the characters earn their happy ending. That's why I like Rurouni Kenshin, Eureka 7, Rave Master, Fullmetal Alchemist, the Good ending in Bioshock, mutherflipping Dishonered (low chaos FTW), Fate/Stay Night, and Gurren Lagann

Because when you struggle and fight for it, you ****ing deserve a happy ending
 
Sorry, Chancy. I like Endings where the characters earn their happy ending. That's why I like Rurouni Kenshin, Eureka 7, Rave Master, Fullmetal Alchemist, the Good ending in Bioshock, mutherflipping Dishonered (low chaos FTW), Fate/Stay Night, and Gurren Lagann

Because when you struggle and fight for it, you ******* deserve a happy ending
What about The Walking Dead Game ending?
tumblr_mio30aNvly1s49qjno1_500.gif

That thing was friggin beautiful tragedy. :'(
 
It was.

As all real men know, there are only two ways to cry and still be manly. The single tear of manliness and the free flowing tears of sorrow.

I single teared during L's death and Vergil's betrayal

I manly teared many times

Only six occasions have made me go beyond that and cry tears of sorrow-pain in a most ungentlemanly way. Kamina's death in TTGL, Lelouch's Death in Code Geass, The entirety of the Eclispe in Berserk, and all of A Time to Kill, The Green Mile or John Q.

Welcome to number 7 on the bitch-cry list, Walking Dead game.
 
Sorry, Chancy. I like Endings where the characters earn their happy ending. That's why I like Rurouni Kenshin, Eureka 7, Rave Master, Fullmetal Alchemist, the Good ending in Bioshock, mutherflipping Dishonered (low chaos FTW), Fate/Stay Night, and Gurren Lagann

Because when you struggle and fight for it, you ******* deserve a happy ending
The ending can be happy or sad, as long as it's good. Honestly, stories that have the balls to do something like kill a major character at the end or lets the bad guys win can really turn in to some of the most memorable and the ones with the most impact. Sometimes life doesn't toss you that fairy tale happy ending and settling for the happy one can sometimes feel boring and maybe just flat out silly (see The Dark Knight Rises)

Ambition shows you have soul. I don't want to be reading some story that just turns in to the very predictable "everything is going to be all right in the end" cliche. Sometimes the sad endings can be the most fun because while it may be a bummer a character you like so much might die, you'd also probably be like "Holy sh!t! I can't believe that just happened!" See what I mean?
 
Sorry, Chancy. I like Endings where the characters earn their happy ending. That's why I like Rurouni Kenshin, Eureka 7, Rave Master, Fullmetal Alchemist, the Good ending in Bioshock, mutherflipping Dishonered (low chaos FTW), Fate/Stay Night, and Gurren Lagann

Because when you struggle and fight for it, you ******* deserve a happy ending

I don't mind tragic endings as long as they don't come out of left field and fit the story nicely, but yes mostly I'm a sucker for those skittle and rainbow endings as well. Mass Effect 3 was one of the few endings that kind of ****ed me off though. :/
 
As I said before, I don't think it's that easy for Mundus to get a woman pregnant. They mentioned, in the game, that he had multiple women. Lilith was the only one that was pregnant. If it's difficult for him to procreate, he'd want to hold onto the child he did get.

And he just gave up after one child? Were all bets placed on that one child? He didn't think to try and get a second one?

As for Lilith's death, because she would have died slowly after being shot the first time, I'd say that was more of a mercy killing. Vergil could have just let her bleed to death, but finished her with the head shot.

Why didn't he just shoot her first then the child? It's not exactly merciful given that he let her see her child die before he shoots her.
 
And he just gave up after one child? Were all bets placed on that one child? He didn't think to try and get a second one?



Why didn't he just shoot her first then the child? It's not exactly merciful given that he let her see her child die before he shoots her.
yes let's just be merciful to the demons who ruined your life, news flash,
VERGIL
IS
NOT
A
GOOD
PERSON
 
I have no doubt some people are using Lilith's death as extra ammo for their already-set dislike of DmC. But the truth is that it's an incredibly easy target for that purpose (...no pun intended?) It was deliberately framed in a way to inspire shock and disgust. Lilith was in human form at the time, cringing and upset and crying, and we spent several painfully drawn-out moments watching her fear and helplessness paralleled with Kat's, a human character we actually do care about. When her belly was shot out, you saw her horror (and Kat's, and Dante's, and Mundus's) and then her sobbing over the hole in her torso while blood dripped from her hands.

This was supposed to be uncomfortable, specifically in order to cast Vergil in the most unflattering light possible. It's all part of an intentional narrative, not an accident. But for some people, it was TOO uncomfortable, and that's only to be expected. You don't frame a scene in that fashion without expecting some people to be like "No. Just, no. What the f**k was that?" It's a calculated risk.

DMC is not a series that shies away from brutality. Lady shot her own father in the face, but Lilith's scene was constructed to strike a sympathetic nerve. She could have been vicious and remorseless like Arkham was at the end, spitting curses at Dante, she could have tried to kill Kat during the pass, forcing Vergil's hand, or she could have been shot cleanly, like Arkham was, without us ever seeing her weeping over the crater in her belly. There were a number of ways to do this scene to ensure it would feel just as arbitrary as Nero killing Echidna's children, but it was made to be emotional. And so it inspired some negative emotions.

To be fair, as much as I didn't like anything about that entire mission and could write an essay about why, I will say that I appreciate the intention behind that particular scene. It wasn't just there to be vulgar or "cool" like some other scenes in the game, it had meaning, it was just clumsy. I really like the suggestion elsewhere in the thread of Vergil bombing Lilith and the SWAT team instead. I think it would have been a better parallel with the shady terrorism the Order was being accused of, especially if the news reported later that all the damage to the city (from Mundus's temper tantrum) was caused by, dun dun dun, a terrorist bombing. DmC was a satire on current Western political and media climate, and they didn't play up the terrorist angle up for all it was worth? Shame.
 
@ Railazel

I think Vergil did the DmC world a favor killing the hell baby, so therefore I think he is good... :P

Anyway, I don't think he shot her in the belly to torture her, In my opinion he just wanted to make sure the kid wouldn't pop out of her like a Xenomorph. What If he decided to kill Lilith first and it bolted and survived on it's own? it would just give them more problems that they didn't need. Vergil obviously likes being thorough. :cool:
 
And he just gave up after one child? Were all bets placed on that one child? He didn't think to try and get a second one?



Why didn't he just shoot her first then the child? It's not exactly merciful given that he let her see her child die before he shoots her.
Who says he actually gave up? If it took so long for him to get Lilith pregnant, what makes you think a second one would be any easier?

And I doubt it would have been as shocking for Mundus if Vergil had just shot Lilith. Chances are the baby would have been able to escape from her and survive. It's a demon baby. It's not going to follow the same rules as a human baby. We don't even know how long she was pregnant.
 
Who says he actually gave up? If it took so long for him to get Lilith pregnant, what makes you think a second one would be any easier?I get the impreession she was more into doing this than him. At the start, she says she's his bitch, and basically asks him to bend her over the table and have sex with her. But he's distracted by Dante still being alive, and isn't really listening to her. So she gets a little annoyed and has to reassure him that Dante will be found and killed.
It's the same again with when they're actually doing it and as soon as he knows the succubus is dead, he stops the sex. Again, she's annoyed that he'd stop, I guess because she's so close to having his heir.

And I doubt it would have been as shocking for Mundus if Vergil had just shot Lilith. Chances are the baby would have been able to escape from her and survive. It's a demon baby. It's not going to follow the same rules as a human baby. We don't even know how long she was pregnant.
Yep, it would have crawled right ou of her dead body like it did at the boss fight. But, would it survive long? It was still attached to her in the fight so it needed her for nourishment. Well, unless it can crawl into other people and use it for a host. Now that would be creepy.
 
And he just gave up after one child? Were all bets placed on that one child? He didn't think to try and get a second one?
It's not that, Mundus was angry. He might've found another demon to have his child, but personally he was angry that Sparda's son had killed his heir and he wanted revenge for that. Remember he's the demon king, having a nephilim kill his child would've snapped a fuse in him, that killing Dante (who he mistook for the one to have done it) was the only thing he'd of had in mind afterwards.

It would've been the same if Dante got someone pregnant and they were killed. Sure he can have more kids, but the loss and the need for payback is still there. Even if Mundus can't love Lilith, it's possible he would've had some pride in having a son, if some form of attachment towards the child.

I really like the suggestion elsewhere in the thread of Vergil bombing Lilith and the SWAT team instead. I think it would have been a better parallel with the shady terrorism the Order was being accused of, especially if the news reported later that all the damage to the city (from Mundus's temper tantrum) was caused by, dun dun dun, a terrorist bombing. DmC was a satire on current Western political and media climate, and they didn't play up the terrorist angle up for all it was worth? Shame.

It's a good idea, but there's a flaw to it. Remember Dante and Vergil had to escape Order headquarters. Apart from a laptop and what they had on them (and the car they use later), they didn't have anything they could've used to carry out such an idea. And then you have Lilith herself, would she willingly allow Vergil to attach a bomb to her? I highly doubt it, and I doubt Dante would've agreed into it, incase it caused problems getting Kat back (and I think it would've been out of character for Dante if he had allowed it, nor could it have been done behind his back).

In fact, that might've been even worse, having a pregnant women EXPLODE into a bunch of pieces on screen [that is unless the trade had gone on as planned, Lilith was taken into the swat van, and then the explosion happened] But stating the reasons before as why that couldn't happened, I don't think there's any other way it could've played out.

There are suggestions Vergil should use something else, but the question is what? A sword wouldn't work because it would've been impossible with the hostage exchange and the swat team standing by; they'd of shot Vergil before he got close and would've put too much focus on him if Mundus was watching and discovered him to be a nephilim. Vergil wouldn't want that (also again it wouldn't have gone down well with Vergil and Lilith recreating a Sephiroth stab Aerith event, and with her being pregnant at that).

We have to remember, the whole trade scene is happening because of Dante. Vergil had to more-or-less stay true to his brother's word in doing it his way, which he only followed through partly. He waited until both Lilith and Kat had crossed the midway point, before Vergil decided to take the shot.

It's like you said, that scene was meant to paint Vergil in an unpleasant light. And we should remember it's made clear as soon as Vergil heard from Dante that Lilith was pregnant, he wanted her dead because he knew that would be enough to draw Mundus out, since that guy doesn't like to be messed with. And again, he doesn't want his kid becoming back fully grown and killing him later on. We've seen already how strong the baby was during the fight in the club, and then what Mundus became later on. Vergil definitely wouldn't have wanted two Mundus's causing problems for him.

But whatever way the events had played out, Vergil would've killed Lilith, it was his intent to **** Mundus off. That's why Vergil protested against Dante wanting to use Lilith instead to get Kat back. Vergil deemed his plans more important than saving Kat, thus putting her life at risk during the trade. If things had gone Vergil's way from the very beginning, if Dante hadn't been there, likely Vergil would've done things Se7ven style and chopped off Lilith's head, stuck it in a box and delivered it to Mundus personally. Regardless Vergil never cared what happened to Lilith or the kid, or about getting Kat back, his focus was reaching his goal and that scene shows that.

I think the real issue would've been is if there'd been no motive behind any of it, if Lilith had died for no real apparent reason at all. Then yeah, that would've been a problem. But it's a shame certain people overlook these factors, twist things around and use it as ammo for their already estalished hate. They literally become Bob Barbas in what the media does, in that you can paint an event in a shocking way to make it sound horrible, or you can bend it around to do the opposite. Like how a man that shoots an intruder to his home could be deemed heroic for defending his home and family, or be called a murderer for using a gun to kill the young teenager breaking in.

See how things can be switched around?

Yep, it would have crawled right ou of her dead body like it did at the boss fight. But, would it survive long? It was still attached to her in the fight so it needed her for nourishment. Well, unless it can crawl into other people and use it for a host. Now that would be creepy.

...

Yeah, and then Kat would've had more to run from than just bullets XD she'd of had a big scary demon baby after her trying to attach an umbilical cord to her head.
 
People are making a bigger deal out of this scene than what it needs to be. It's just scrapping and reaching to find even more things to b!tch about because they already just don't like DmC. Every single counter argument I've seen is just very weak. Especially when it just shifts to comparing the Vergil in DmC to the previous one who was a shallow, one dimensional, and an overall terrible character. Vergil in DmC is the better character hands down because he actually has a real freaking personality this time. Why don't you wake up fanboys. The beloved cast of Devil May Cry was NEVER the sophisticated or well developed bunch you think it is so literally stop giving DMC more credit than it deserves.

I'll call bs on Vergil being "honorable" too. Vergil was willing to destroy the entire world just because he had a hissy fit when his mom died. I can feel you Vergil for being p!ssed but you kind of don't gain anything real by just letting everyone die in the process. You're just a crazy asshole. A crazy asshole with a hard on for swords, weirdo. It was like a cartoon villain. Or the dumb villains from Resident Evil.
 
It's a good idea, but there's a flaw to it. Remember Dante and Vergil had to escape Order headquarters. Apart from a laptop and what they had on them (and the car they use later), they didn't have anything they could've used to carry out such an idea. And then you have Lilith herself, would she willingly allow Vergil to attach a bomb to her? I highly doubt it, and I doubt Dante would've agreed into it, incase it caused problems getting Kat back (and I think it would've been out of character for Dante if he had allowed it, nor could it have been done behind his back).True, they probably didn't have a bomb making kit, but I can think of a way to put a bomb on her and not know. Anyone remember that South Park episode when they put a bomb inside Hillary Clinton?:troll: Yeah, if the twins were brave enough, they could have tried that while she was asleep.
But you're right, Dante would not be on board with that. He gave his word that he would not harm either of them, so I doubt he'd suddenly change his mind and want to bomb her.

In fact, that might've been even worse, having a pregnant women EXPLODE into a bunch of pieces on screen [that is unless the trade had gone on as planned, Lilith was taken into the swat van, and then the explosion happened] But stating the reasons before as why that couldn't happened, I don't think there's any other way it could've played out.It would have been unexpected, like bloody chunks fireworks.:lol: I don't know why, but I'd probably laugh at that. There's just something about Lilith walking along, then suddenly 'boom!'.

There are suggestions Vergil should use something else, but the question is what? A sword wouldn't work because it would've been impossible with the hostage exchange and the swat team standing by; they'd of shot Vergil before he got close and would've put too much focus on him if Mundus was watching and discovered him to be a nephilim. Vergil wouldn't want that (also again it wouldn't have gone down well with Vergil and Lilith recreating a Sephiroth stab Aerith event, and with her being pregnant at that).It would be hard to get near her to stab her, also she probably would have survived the first stab and staggered away. How would he finish her off with a sword if the first try failed? Or even if he cut off her head, again, the baby could crawl out. So what Vergil did made sense. Take out the baby and then kill Lilith to end her suffering. Man, that hole in her middle had to hurt.>_<

We have to remember, the whole trade scene is happening because of Dante. Vergil had to more-or-less stay true to his brother's word in doing it his way, which he only followed through partly. He waited until both Lilith and Kat had crossed the midway point, before Vergil decided to take the shot. If Vergil had his way, Kat would probably be dead, and Vergil would have just sent Dante to kill Lilith as a way to anger Mundus.
It was still reckless for Vergil to make the shot when Kat was not quite with them.

It's like you said, that scene was meant to paint Vergil in an unpleasant light. And we should remember it's made clear as soon as Vergil heard from Dante that Lilith was pregnant, he wanted her dead because he knew that would be enough to draw Mundus out, since that guy doesn't like to be messed with. And again, he doesn't want his kid becoming back fully grown and killing him later on. We've seen already how strong the baby was during the fight in the club, and then what Mundus became later on. Vergil definitely wouldn't have wanted two Mundus's causing problems for him.I'd say Vergil was alrrady unpleasant before that. As soon as he sees Mundus' ransom video with Kat, his first response is that she can't be saved, and he's more interested that Mundus does not know he exists or that there are two Nephilim. Then there's how happy he becomes when Dante says Lilith is pregnant with Mundus' heir and all he can thin about it using that to draw Mundus out not saving Kat.

Yeah, and then Kat would've had more to run from than just bullets XD she'd of had a big scary demon baby after her trying to attach an umbilical cord to her head.And now I have a very strage image in my head of that happening:P>_<
 
Yep, it would have crawled right ou of her dead body like it did at the boss fight. But, would it survive long? It was still attached to her in the fight so it needed her for nourishment. Well, unless it can crawl into other people and use it for a host. Now that would be creepy.
I'd guess she was more into it because of the power she would get. I'm also guessing she was already pregnant at that point. It would explain why he allowed her to stay close so much, so he'd be able to make sure nothing happened to her or the child.

lol. Hasn't there been something like that in horror films? Where a demonic baby, or something, was able to find another host after the mother died? It would probably survive long enough for that. Or they could do what's done with premies, put it in an incubator and keep it alive that way.
 
I'd guess she was more into it because of the power she would get. I'm also guessing she was already pregnant at that point. It would explain why he allowed her to stay close so much, so he'd be able to make sure nothing happened to her or the child.If she was already pregnant at the start of the game, wouldn't the spawn be moving or something? Or at the least, wouldn't Mundus say something, maybe about securing his power now that he has an heir? Also, what was the point of the scene with him having sex with Lilith if she was already pregnant? :/ Somehow, I don't think the spawn would like them doing that and would probably let them know it.>_< Ewwww....

lol. Hasn't there been something like that in horror films? Where a demonic baby, or something, was able to find another host after the mother died? It would probably survive long enough for that. Or they could do what's done with premies, put it in an incubator and keep it alive that way.
Horror films have done stuff like that with ghosts taking control of people, so it wouldn't be too hard to imagine a demonic baby looking for a new host. As for incubating it, they'd have to catch it first. :P
How was the spawn so big anyway? Maybe it only gets bigger when it's outside her? Also, if he got her pregnant the human way, then why did it come out of her head instead of....down there. Not that I wanted to actually see her give birth on the dance floor, but I'm just wondering. :/
 
Horror films have done stuff like that with ghosts taking control of people, so it wouldn't be too hard to imagine a demonic baby looking for a new host. As for incubating it, they'd have to catch it first. :P
How was the spawn so big anyway? Maybe it only gets bigger when it's outside her? Also, if he got her pregnant the human way, then why did it come out of her head instead of....down there. Not that I wanted to actually see her give birth on the dance floor, but I'm just wondering. :/
I'm sure it knew who its father was, and wouldn't be against him for any reason. Besides, it probably wasn't moving before because of Lilith not riling it up about fighting Dante. As for having the sex scene, I remember someone saying it was probably a way to keep people from questioning it was true.

Since Mundus didn't say anything about her being pregnant until after she was dead, I doubt he would have said anything about it before. Keeping it secret was the best way to ensure the baby wasn't going to be killed before it was born. It's like with attempts to protect a king's heir in the medieval times. They'd take the heir away to a place where he would be safe in case of any assassination attempts.

It would probably try to reach Mundus once it knew it was in danger. That would pretty much raise the chances of Mundus saving the child.

I have no idea. Maybe you're right and it gets bigger when outside her body. Or maybe it was just when it was in an aggressive state. As for the rest, I'd rather not guess. lol. The whole thing with it trying to punch out of her stomach and then coming out her head was bad enough for me. I couldn't watch.
 
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