The odd morality.

[crush]

Lilith says during the fight the kid is immortal just like his father.
I don't know what this means though.

 

[Dante Redgrave]

"Attacked" every night? What imagery does her description bring to mind exactly? And abuse, sexual of otherwise, has to be handled well in order to bring actual depth to a character's back story. She just up and exposits about it in deadpan, and it's supposed to add this emotional investment to her. It just feels hollow, without real perspective on the nature of abuse or the intense emotions that come with it.

Which is why it comes off that she was just beaten and not raped or such like some people claim. I know people who have been through that, and when I asked them what they thought of that scene, they said "yeah, they just bullied and beat her, she wasn't raped if that's how she talked about it."

Plus: Vergil should have given here a gat to keep the cops at bay. Like everyone else in the Order. But then we couldn't have the heavy handed "Cops r teh evulzs" scenes.

...he didn't give anyone in the Order any way to defend themselves, they were all essentially bean counters. Vergil gives the impression he trusted NO ONE else with a weapon

 

[Aretha]

I wouldn't call it sexist though. I would call it realistic. Women are flawed, like men are.

*facepalm* Morgan isn't pointing out character flaws. The series as a whole fails to portray women as capable without overly sexualizing them at the same time. Or instead it portrays them as victims who need a man's help instead of getting the job done themselves. And yes, that's sexist. And no, you don't have to be a feminist to see that.


I also agree with Macabre, it's strongly implied that Kat was sexually abused.

Vergil should have given her a gat to keep the cops at bay. Like everyone else in the Order. But then we couldn't have the heavy handed "Cops r teh evulzs" scenes.

I was under the impression that only Nephilim were capable of actually traveling between Limbo and the real world, which is why they were hunted after all. Kat's spirit could travel to Limbo, but that's not the same, her body was still in the real world. So I don't see how Vergil could have given anyone a gate, when only he and Dante can use it to cross worlds?

 

[Dante Redgrave]

I think he meant "gat" as in the 'gangstah' slang for a gun...

 

[KaizenShio]

welp this convo has turned again Feminism now oh boy let me stay out of this

 

[Macabre]

Lilith says during the fight the kid is immortal just like his father.
I don't know what this means though.

I'm pretty sure she was exaggerating, because she is a devout believer in Mundas and his invincibility. Demons are incredibly easy to kill in this setting.

Also: The spawn being killed with a single bullet is complete bollocks. I busted my arse for three minutes kicking the crap out of that stupid looking, boring as hell boss fight, and Vergil outright kills it with a single non-phlebotinem bullet? Utter tripe.

...he didn't give anyone in the Order any way to defend themselves, they were all essentially bean counters. Vergil gives the impression he trusted NO ONE else with a weapon

I don't know where you got that idea from; he never implicitly states or even implies that. What's more, what the hell does Vergil have to fear from giving every one of his operatives a handgun? The dude can survive being shot around five billion times with two magically-enhanced pistols even on the easiest difficulty. Worried that a demon-sympathiser might infiltrate and shoot up the place? If everyone has a gat then that's going to be far less of an issue, isn't it!

Which is why it comes off that she was just beaten and not raped or such like some people claim. I know people who have been through that, and when I asked them what they thought of that scene, they said "yeah, they just bullied and beat her, she wasn't raped if that's how she talked about it."

Or the far more likely conclusion that Antonaides has has never spoken to or researched abuse victims and just wrote the scene like every single other exposition scene he has ever written: Deadpan shot/reverse shot.

I was under the impression that only Nephilim were capable of actually traveling between Limbo and the real world, which is why they were hunted after all. Kat's spirit could travel to Limbo, but that's not the same, her body was still in the real world. So I don't see how Vergil could have given anyone a gate, when only he and Dante can use it to cross worlds?

I was referring to pistols actually, but yes, the Limbo stuff is confusing and poorly defined.

welp this convo has turned again Feminism now oh boy let me stay out of this

Come on, everyone's got a perspective on the issue and you're welcome to contribute.

 

[Dante's Stalker]

I gatta say... I'm surprised to know that people are going apes#!t over this whole dead baby thing. I mean killing babies..? No cool, that much is true. However in this case it seems the none existent baby that got blown away, who by the way was the devil's spawn, is getting some odd amount of sympathy. I say this because, and to the point, A) it seems that people forget that on the previous level you spend a boss fight shooting, punching, slicing, dicing, and generally attempting to ensure some violence on to a mother and child and while some would argue that the end result of that conflict did not result in death I say violence is violence and if one is not right the other should not be ether. B) I honestly think that if Vergil had executed baby while he was out of the mother looking as disgusting as he did this wouldn't be an issue. Hell, I'd bet money on it.

More than that if the mission wasn't to capture but to kill in the game there would be no gripes about it ether. Why? I think it's because

I get it though. There are morality scenarios in ethic classes and books that ask you if you'd kill a child to save the world of cure diseases and the PC thing to say is no but the reality is that mobs would gather to tear the child apart no question. If this scenario were real and people knew that that woman was a demon and her child was satan spawn not only would there be no objections they would bring chips and salsa.

I'm just saying that it's an odd double standard that it's cool to insert violence, and I mean violence, on to a demon baby and mommy but it's uncalled for to kill 'em. I say ether both or nether, no middle ground where the idea of killing that ugly evil thing is a no no but it's OK to shot and hack at it's eye ball.


... Wow... This was a way longer post than I intended or that was necessary.

^Pretty much this.
If it eases anyone's moral values, Lilith was only concerned about her own value and high position beside Mundus. If the spawn had meant nothing to Mundus, she would have probably killed it herself. Plus, this is a game about demons. Focus on objecting to the real thing rather than crying murder about a game.
+ I'm glad Vergil pulled the trigger.
He made Dante say 'what the ****' with a funny expression. It made me giggle. LOL achieved, moving on.

 

[KaizenShio]

Naw ill just stay over here and watch the forum from afar

 

[Macabre]

^Pretty much this.
If it eases anyone's moral values, Lilith was only concerned about her own value and high position beside Mundus. If the spawn had meant nothing to Mundus, she would have probably killed it herself. Plus, this is a game about demons. Focus on objecting to the real thing rather than crying murder about a game.
+ I'm glad Vergil pulled the trigger.
He made Dante say 'what the ****' with a funny expression. It made me giggle. LOL achieved, moving on.

You see, this is why it's common etiquette to scan over a thread and see what points other people have made before you post.

Hyperbole: The Spawn was just as sentient as Dante and Vergil, and Sparda proves that Demons are not inherently evil in this setting. Therefore killing a demon baby is just as immoral as killing a human baby, and judging it just because it appears monstrous is missing the point entirely.

And while we might agree that it may have been a necessary measure to goad Mundas, the game's treatment of the event is poor.

 

[KaizenShio]

You see, this is why it's common etiquette to scan over a thread and see what points other people have made before you post.

Hyperbole: The Spawn was just as sentient as Dante and Vergil, and Sparda proves that Demons are not inherently evil in this setting. Therefore killing a demon baby is just as immoral as killing a human baby, and judging it just because it appears monstrous is missing the point entirely.

And while we might agree that it may have been a necessary measure to goad Mundas, the game's treatment of the event is poor.

So you wanted lilith not to die so she could take care of the kid?

 

[Dante's Stalker]

You see, this is why it's common etiquette to scan over a thread and see what points other people have made before you post.

Hyperbole: The Spawn was just as sentient as Dante and Vergil, and Sparda proves that Demons are not inherently evil in this setting. Therefore killing a demon baby is just as immoral as killing a human baby, and judging it just because it appears monstrous is missing the point entirely.

And while we might agree that it may have been a necessary measure to goad Mundas, the game's treatment of the event is poor.

I did, actually, and it hasn't changed my mind on the subject. I agree with the OP's post and that's it. A demon baby is NOT a human baby, that's the key here. It's a demon, kill it.

 

[berto]

Naw ill just stay over here and watch the forum from afar

Tried that for awhile... Couldn't resist the temptation.

 

[Macabre]

So you wanted lilith not to die so she could take care of the kid

No, for me it's more of a failure to capitaliize on a potentially interesting plot hook or explore the character's reactions to something seriously morally dark.

Let's say if Vergil killed the mother but adopted the child as a protege, or if Dante realised that he's allowed himself to become a bigot by casually condoning the murder of an innocent being.

You know, something. ANYTHING.

I did, actually, and it hasn't changed my mind on the subject. I agree with the OP's post and that's it. A demon baby is NOT a human baby, that's the key here. It's a demon, kill it.

You can apply that logic to Etnad and Vergin, so I agree wholeheartedly.

 

[Dante Redgrave]

...Demon Baby still equals "BABY", and as proven by Sparda AND Phineas, Demon's are not by default going to be evil, that's just how they get conditioned to be. Look carefully at Vergil's face right after he fires, he's horrified with what he just did and the implications of what it means. They did miss a huge character development hook, and I am a bit disgusted with how they wrote Dante as just railing on with it to Mundus...but he IS an asshole, and he was trying to get Mundus so ****ed he's leave the gate unguarded. It could have been handled better, but the arguement is now "it's not human, KILL IT WITH FIRE!" DANTE recognized that a life is still a life and promised Lilith that she and teh baby would live if she cooperated; VERGIL violated that promise and killed her.

 

[KaizenShio]

...Demon Baby still equals "BABY", and as proven by Sparda AND Phineas, Demon's are not by default going to be evil, that's just how they get conditioned to be. Look carefully at Vergil's face right after he fires, he's horrified with what he just did and the implications of what it means. They did miss a huge character development hook, and I am a bit disgusted with how they wrote Dante as just railing on with it to Mundus...but he IS an asshole, and he was trying to get Mundus so ****ed he's leave the gate unguarded. It could have been handled better, but the arguement is now "it's not human, KILL IT WITH FIRE!" DANTE recognized that a life is still a life and promised Lilith that she and teh baby would live if she cooperated; VERGIL violated that promise and killed her.

Well at this scene i was more ****ed that vergil shot the chick and Kat was put in danger...... Then i got really mad when Kat didnt like instantly hit the ground when bullets was flying..... then i just got mad that everyone aim was sooo bad

 

[Paexie]

No, for me it's more of a failure to capitaliize on a potentially interesting plot hook or explore the character's reactions to something seriously morally dark.

Let's say if Vergil killed the mother but adopted the child as a protege, or if Dante realised that he's allowed himself to become a bigot by casually condoning the murder of an innocent being.

You know, something. ANYTHING.

You can apply that logic to Etnad and Vergin, so I agree wholeheartedly.

Dude you sorta forgot that the baby was still ilnside Lilith... what would she have done after Mundus dies? Seriously.

...Demon Baby still equals "BABY", and as proven by Sparda AND Phineas, Demon's are not by default going to be evil, that's just how they get conditioned to be. Look carefully at Vergil's face right after he fires, he's horrified with what he just did and the implications of what it means. They did miss a huge character development hook, and I am a bit disgusted with how they wrote Dante as just railing on with it to Mundus...but he IS an asshole, and he was trying to get Mundus so ****ed he's leave the gate unguarded. It could have been handled better, but the arguement is now "it's not human, KILL IT WITH FIRE!" DANTE recognized that a life is still a life and promised Lilith that she and teh baby would live if she cooperated; VERGIL violated that promise and killed her.

You forgot that Dante doesn't start out the conversation with that comment on his child. He seriously wanted to avoid delving so low.

 

[Macabre]

They did miss a huge character development hook, and I am a bit disgusted with how they wrote Dante as just railing on with it to Mundus...but he IS an asshole, and he was trying to get Mundus so ****ed he's leave the gate unguarded.

Heh, that part reminded me of the last Star Trek film, with Kirk aggravating Young Spock under Old Spock's orders.

Vergil: Brother, I need you to go to Mundas, and lure him away from the gate. Remember that he is intractable; an immortal who has suffered and perpetrated every depravity imaginable, with patience that shames mountains. To get his attention, to even warrant a single thought from him, you will have to be absolutely intolerable, far beyond the comprehension of mortal men. You will have to be, the most annoying cumstain in the entire universe. Can you do it?

Dante: lol ur hair is faggy

 

[KaizenShio]

and any way i dont agree with this statement at all if it was truly something precious to mundus and Lilith they should have taken measures as such if she considered that thing to be a "Baby" it shouldn't been the first thing she pulled out.. If she new dante was the one who killed succubus why wouldnt the first thing to be docile..... but meh i really couldnt care less your talking to a guy who would be the first one to say kill those lil bastards in children of the corn and they were just possessed

 

[Dante's Stalker]

...Demon Baby still equals "BABY", and as proven by Sparda AND Phineas, Demon's are not by default going to be evil, that's just how they get conditioned to be. Look carefully at Vergil's face right after he fires, he's horrified with what he just did and the implications of what it means. They did miss a huge character development hook, and I am a bit disgusted with how they wrote Dante as just railing on with it to Mundus...but he IS an asshole, and he was trying to get Mundus so ****ed he's leave the gate unguarded. It could have been handled better, but the arguement is now "it's not human, KILL IT WITH FIRE!" DANTE recognized that a life is still a life and promised Lilith that she and teh baby would live if she cooperated; VERGIL violated that promise and killed her.

1 - Who was going to raise that demon spawn? Vergil? He was willing to leave Kat to die. If he'd do that to a human - even though he's apparently trying to 'save' the human race - what he wouldn't do to a demon? Who else, Dante? What, the party kid who gets his kicks from strippers dressed as angels, who prefers to work alone? If they can't do it, and they're supposedly 'good guys', who does that leave to raise it? Other demons? Hmmm, risky, yes? Lilith? I doubt it, considering the spawn only secured her place beside Mundus. If Mundus had been out the picture, she would have had 3 options: kill it, abandon it, or raise it to be as great or greater than Mundus in power. Considering Lilith took pleasure in the fact that she was responsible for arranging Eva's death and Sparda's punishment, I doubt she'd have had 'good' intentions.

2 - He bit his lip. I took his reaction to be 'whoa, I DID IT WHOOO!!! My ebil plan is actually going to work, hehehe' rather than him being horrified. Have you ever seen Vergil look horrified? I have - go back to the cutscene where he's arguing with Dante about saving Kat. I think he looks kinda horrified that Dante is trying to butcher his plans.

3 - I think it has more to do with Dante being a man of his word than him recognizing that 'a life is a life' (plus, he was more likely thinking in terms of a life FOR a life - hence the trade) This chic orchestrated the destruction of his family.

4 - Vergil didn't make any promises, so he didn't really do anything wrong by killing her. PLUS - he killed her with a bullet only because she was weak and injured from her battle with Dante. It seems legit to me, for anyone who thinks it's BS. Ever seen the end of DMC3 where they do Jackpot? Same thing people, c'mon.

 

[Macabre]

Well at this scene i was more ****ed that vergil shot the chick and Kat was put in danger...... Then i got really mad when Kat didnt like instantly hit the ground when bullets was flying..... then i just got mad that everyone aim was sooo bad

Yeah, and Dante couldn't hit anything with his pistols either. The whole scene ended up as a total farce, and this is despite the fact that they actually ratcheted up the tension pretty well up to the shot. The second Vergil fires it turns derpy.