The odd morality.

[Ether0]

I've always been saddened by how so many fans mistake Classic Vergil as an honourable man.

The whole point of the two brothers and their interplay is that they're a study in contrasts. Dante is brash and extroverted, Vergil is reserved and introverted. Dante uses guns and fights like a psychotic berserker, yet will always give his adversaries a chance at mercy before giving them the death blow (Griffin, Cerberus, Nevan, etc) whereas Vergil ostensibly abides by samurai law and despises all firearms, and yet defies Bushido by striking foes who are already down (Dante) or already injured (Beowulf).

It's a fallacy that fans often resort to when they're just disgusted with how poorly DmC handles the entire babycide scenario and don't know exactly how to articulate what exactly is so wrong about it.

I've made it pretty clear that I don't think it was necessarily a bad way of demonstrating Vergil's more despicable nature. In my favourite manga there's a point where the protagonist accidentally kills a little boy during an assassination.

The difference between Berserk and DmC is that the crime Guts has committed has a profound, soul crushing effect on him and those who are aware of it, which has echoes throughout the narrative from that point on. In DmC it's something to be blithely ignored and scooted on from, even bragged about after the fact.

I know, different mediums and everything, but off the top of your head, can you think of any video game narrative that has tried a move like this and treated it so incredibly badly?

Well there are few games that even feature content like that to begin with, at least in the field of high profile games like DMC. I have played plenty of games where the story is much more of a focus and character do things that you would think would have a big effect on them and it ends up just being kind of meh, like it was not important. At times it can really crush the story momentum for me or just make me laugh out loud or infuriate me.

The argument could be made that Vergil having little reaction to what he did could show that he has probably done other horrible things like that in the past to reach his goal, or that NT originally had more of story section fleshed out but cut it for time as is the usual case(of course we may never know), but that is besides the point. The actual point is that they chose to make Vergil that much of a dick and yes they missed an opportunity to have greater character development for whatever reason. I have seen a lot worse in higher caliber games with more prominent stories so I don't think it's an end all. But I really can see your point and can understand why you have a different opinion on the matter.

I would argue that Vergil not really caring at all shows character development and shows he is a ruthless dude and he even goes so far as to convince Dante to take the blame for it and taunt Mundus about it which is really awful and "dishonorable" but fits this new iteration as a cruel, master manipulator hiding behind nice words perfectly

 

[TerrorA]

I've made it pretty clear that I don't think it was necessarily a bad way of demonstrating Vergil's more despicable nature. In my favourite manga there's a point where the protagonist accidentally kills a little boy during an assassination.

You're a Berserker? Sweet! So am I! You read the latest chapter? Griffith has his own kingdom now

 

[Macabre]

I would argue that Vergil not really caring at all shows character development and shows he is a ruthless dude and he even goes so far as to convince Dante to take the blame for it and taunt Mundus about it which is really awful and "dishonorable" but fits this new iteration as a cruel, master manipulator hiding behind nice words perfectly

Though a character "just being evil" is certainly classic story telling, it's never very deep or interesting. It's much more compelling to have a character start off in high places and then see them be dragged low by their actions, especially when their intentions start off noble and we see them become rotten to the core. Milton anyone?

New Vergil, as with Kat, is a character who has already had all their most character-defining moments happen to him long before the story began, and is simply going through the motions until he reaches his goals. None of the events of the game have a profound effect on him until he stupidly confesses his intentions to Dante and Kat at the very end, and by then the story has ended.

You can tell that the writing staff behind DMC3 understood this concept. Classic Vergil is a character set in his ways who can't be changed and can't really develop under his or anyone's power (Except Mundas, hoho), so they engineered the story as a misdirection. The plot is hijacked by a villain arguably much more despicable and vile than even Virgil, allowing the plot to explore the notion that Humans can be just as, if not more horrific than Demons and giving Vergil's presence in the story time to breath. Then when he shows up again for the all-too-brief team up and climactic showdown, his role in the plot has demonstrated how he can't change and that he'll do any evil to get his way. He doesn't say this out loud, in fact none of the characters do. It's told through inference, using macguffins like the amulet to represent bigger concepts without delivering exposition about them directly.

Why can't everyone hold DmC's plot up to DMC3's standard and see it for the paper thin, manipulative and insultingly vapid mess it really is? I mean 3 isn't a Tolstoy, but in three frames it's got more heart, energy or profundity than ten play throughs of DmC.

You're a Berserker? Sweet! So am I! You read the latest chapter? Griffith has his own kingdom now

That surprises you? It's only been his primary character motive and intent since the beginning. It's like saying "Luffy's the Pirate KIng", "Goku is the Strongest Man Alive" or "Naruto Is An Insufferable Wank Stain".

Joking asside, did you try Dragon's Dogma? It and Dark Souls are probably the closest we'll ever get to a Berserk game in English. Seeing as we'll never get this translated:

Grr.

 

[TerrorA]

True but it's still a surprise to find out the villain has all but won. Let's hope those elves are as badass as Shiercke talked them up.

 

[Ether0]

Though a character "just being evil" is certainly classic story telling, it's never very deep or interesting. It's much more compelling to have a character start off in high places and then see them be dragged low by their actions, especially when their intentions start off noble and we see them become rotten to the core. Milton anyone?

New Vergil, as with Kat, is a character who has already had all their most character-defining moments happen to him long before the story began, and is simply going through the motions until he reaches his goals. None of the events of the game have a profound effect on him until he stupidly confesses his intentions to Dante and Kat at the very end, and by then the story has ended.

You can tell that the writing staff behind DMC3 understood this concept. Classic Vergil is a character set in his ways who can't be changed and can't really develop under his or anyone's power (Except Mundas, hoho), so they engineered the story as a misdirection. The plot is hijacked by a villain arguably much more despicable and vile than even Virgil, allowing the plot to explore the notion that Humans can be just as, if not more horrific than Demons and giving Vergil's presence in the story time to breath. Then when he shows up again for the all-too-brief team up and climactic showdown, his role in the plot as demonstrated how he can't change and that he'll do any evil to get his way. He doesn't say this out loud, in fact none of the characters do. It's told through inference, using macguffins like the amulet to represent bigger concepts without delivering exposition about them directly.

Why can't everyone hold DmC's plot up to DMC3's standard and see it for the paper thin, manipulative and insultingly vapid mess it really is? I mean 3 isn't a Tolstoy, but in three frames it's got more heart, energy or profundity than ten play throughs of DmC.



That surprises you? It's only been his primary character motive and intent since the beginning. It's like saying "Luffy's the Pirate KIng", "Goku is the Strongest Man Alive" or "Naruto Is An Insufferable Wank Stain".

Joking asside, did you try Dragon's Dogma? It and Dark Souls are probably the closest we'll ever get to a Berserk game in English. Seeing as we'll never get this translated:

Grr.

True, DMC3 does have a much better plot than any other games, still in my opinion I give this game's plot a better score. While I cant really fault DMC3's plot at all, it was perfectly fine and did everything it needed to do and for the most part, it had a good cast of characters. For me personally it fell flat in the simple fact that it was a story I had seen a million times and everything that happened I knew would happen by the time Lady was introduced. I still loved the game and find no fault that you enjoy it's story way more than DmC's.

For me, DmC's plot, although still nothing new and I was still able to figure out everything that would happen fairly early one, it's just felt better to me. The character's felt more believable and grounded, the voice acting was much better and I liked all the character arcs much better. It is true that Vergil and Kat both had their character defining arcs happen before hand and I'm okay with that for the simple reason that they were not the main character. It was all made to serve Dante's own unique transformation. Had they devoted too many resources into doing this for Vergil it would have potentially overshadowed Dante's since generally, villains tend to be much more complex and interesting than heroes.

For Vergil it was less about him having his own sort of character journey like Dante and more about a slow revelation that this nice, altruistic guy you meet at the beginning of the game is a ruthless man who thinks he knows what is best for humanity. I saw it coming a mile away but it was still, in my opinion handled and written quite well.

Now I highly doubt you'll agree with anything I just stated and likely just continue to say how wrong or foolish people who like the games story are and that's okay, we don't have to agree, but I respect that you have a different opinion and enjoy the debate on which Vergil is the better character. You make valid points, many that I agree with and some that I don't. In the end it's all subjective and based on personal taste.

 

[Macabre]

I'm glad to have others to debate the value of the whole franchise with of course, yet I think this discussion has deviated away from the problems with the game's internal morality (Although god knows the discussion on that topic is far from over). Perhaps a thread for discussing overall plot cohesion and story telling methods between the games is in order?

Don't get me wrong, I have plenty to say in reply, particularly when it comes to having a thee-character piece and being happy with only one of them getting development, but let's take it up somewhere more relevant?