The odd morality.

[Macabre]

Why can't you people see that Slacri is obviously just trying to rile you people up?
He knows it's just a game, he knows the child was demonic, he knows all these things you guys are trying to convince him, yet you guys still try and counter his arguements. Let the man be, let him dislike DmC and the story, let him make his anti-statements. To argue with him is just to humour him.

On topic, I am all in for abortion. Especially if the child turns out to be the spawn of evil. It wasn't even born and yet it tried to kill Dante. So there you have it.

It was trying to murder Dante because the arsehole kicked in the door to his Mum's home and started beating the spit out of them both. Hell in the Spawn's position I'd have ripped that jerk's head off myself. It's hardly grounds for claiming that the Spawn was "evil". Really, even as a mature adult, try telling me you wouldn't try to protect your own mother if some gremlin-faced prat started trying to carve her up with a zweihander.

What is the actual counter-argument here? You can't possibly morally justify killing a sentient creature against it's mother's will in these circumstances, unless it's the act of a morally reprehensible berk like Vergil. Even then the scene was clearly engineered to be "provocative" in the most lazy way possible (Sudden violence against women and children x2 C-c-combo!) in order to drum up some controversy to get the game more press. Let's not forget either that it precedes that really stupid scene where Dante spontaneously gains the power to shift to-and-from Limbo whenever he wants, but you're so busy being stunned by the abortion and the fact that A DEVIL CRIES IN A DEVIL MAY CRY GAME WHAT THE HELL that you barely notice.

Why couldn't the Spawn have survived? You could introduce it as a new recurring character with a revenge-obsession for Dante. You know, introduce new elements to the lore and ways to expand on the story? He could have ended up like this guy:

Oh wait, that would make the game like Berserk, which is awesome, and we can't very well have that, can we.

 

[ZeroLove]

I just say, were I in Vergil's shoes, I would have done the same thing. Mundus' spawn was a potential threat. When Mundus was gone, killed by the Sparda Bros, and if Lilith and the child were spared, then the child had the potential to grow up and be a threat towards mankind's freedom from demons.

In Devil May Cry, demons are rarely good. They are extremely unique cases. Yeah, the child could grow up and become good, but the odds against it are way too high to risk it. There would be less than 0,001% chances for it.

The spawn was evil. It got killed. You can try and explain your way out of it, but it doesn't change the facts.

 

[crush]

If it were human sized and Dante took care of it there is a small possibility though.
But I think two personalities like Dante will fry up Vergil's brain to charred ashes.

 

[Macabre]

If it were human sized and Dante took care of it there is a small possibility though.
But I think two personalities like Dante will fry up Vergil's brain to charred ashes.

The kid could have anchored itself in a human just like it's folks. And implying that the Spawn could end up even half as irritating as Dante is an insult I wouldn't wish on my darkest enemy.

Did anyone else feel cheated that we never saw Lillith in her demon form? Her entire character is defined by he fact that she's got a baby in her, and there's practically nothing else to her.

Mmmm, that's good misogyny.

While the hell would Mundas even settle on her as a carrier for his spawn? Wouldn't he want some kind of neigh-godlike powerhouse to protect his unborn?

 

[ZeroLove]

While the hell would Mundas even settle on her as a carrier for his spawn? Wouldn't he want some kind of neigh-godlike powerhouse to protect his unborn?

Her beauty and her loyalty. XD
No, seriously though, I don't know.

But I agree with I was disappointed in not seeing her demonic form. She could have been a cool boss character on her own. ^^

 

[DragonMaster2010]

And even if Dante managed to get ahold of Vergil, I think it is most likely that Vergil would have struggled anyway and refusing help.

Lol, that'd be funny actually.

Vergil: "No! I don't wanna live! I wanna die!!"
Dante: "Boy, if you don't let me save your life, I'll knock you up side the head!"

 

[Macabre]

Her beauty and her loyalty. XD
No, seriously though, I don't know.

But I agree with I was disappointed in not seeing her demonic form. She could have been a cool boss character on her own. ^^

That would have made a nice addition for Dante Must Die mode. You beat her spawn, she pats it and says, "Alright darling, Mummy needs your power now..." and absorbs him back inside her and turns into some kind rotting, barely-held together abomination as a reflection of her botox-ridden human form. Bitch should have turned into Melchiah.

But that would have meant adding content for higher difficulties, as well as introducing a female character who is independently powerful without needing a man, and for NT that is completely unacceptable.

Seriously:

Empowered by male god, dumb as a post

Needs a man to do anything, revenge obsessed nincompoop

Sexual abuse as backstory, defenceless without men

 

[ZeroLove]

I would have preferred a Nevan-like boss. Enough with the big, nasty bosses, there are already enough og those, imo.

 

[Macabre]

I would have preferred a Nevan-like boss. Enough with the big, nasty bosses, there are already enough og those, imo.

The engine clearly wasn't designed around them though, which is why there is only one of them in the game. For a human-sized adversary with high agility, you really need the lock-on. Thus why Vergil barely moves, and why every time you jump over his head to helm-breaker him Dante completely misses.

 

[ZeroLove]

The engine clearly wasn't designed around them though, which is why there is only one of them in the game. For a human-sized adversary with high agility, you really need the lock-on. Thus why Vergil barely moves, and why every time you jump over his head to helm-breaker him Dante completely misses.

It has nothing to do with the engine. Unreal Engine was used for Batman: Arkham-series and they have almost only human-sized bosses. Not to mention Ninja Theory have already made some human-sized boss battles in Heavenly Sword.

 

[Macabre]

I meant the gameplay engine, and the lack of Lock-on. The HS boss fights were mostly structured so the camera could stay still, like that mutant slag in the flooded corridor.

And do you have a perspective on NT's sexist design choices?

 

[ZeroLove]

I meant the gameplay engine, and the lack of Lock-on. The HS boss fights were mostly structured so the camera could stay still, like that mutant slag in the flooded corridor.

And do you have a perspective on NT's sexist design choices?

Sexist? Explain, please.

 

[Morgan]

Did anyone else feel cheated that we never saw Lillith in her demon form? Her entire character is defined by he fact that she's got a baby in her, and there's practically nothing else to her.

Mmmm, that's good misogyny.

Whereas Trish is just defined by the fact that she looked like Dante's mother and was a damsel in distress, and any sign of compassion and niceness she shows gets completely invalidated by the anime that made her into such an insufferable loner that even though she gave her life to save Dante, her later giving him pointers about a demon that wants to kill him is "unusually kind" of her?

Whereas Lady's defined by her being an irrational bitch (you can tell she was a bitch and not just "assertive" or straightforward because she was racist, hypocritical, wrong about her ideas, was hysterical about her issues and basically threw a tantrum everywhere) and her confrontation with Dante came about less because it made narrative sense but more because she needed to be taken down a couple of notches, where as soon as she got her ass kicked she got all soft and vulnerable/conventional and was all right with Dante going off to fight her battles for her, and she didn't get to complete her life's mission until after Dante and Vergil did most of the legwork and left her enemy crippled for her?

Whereas Nevan the only other female boss in the game runs around with her breasts just barely covered by her hair, talks like a whore, and her most notable trait is that she had an attraction for Sparda and then his son?

Whereas DMC4 was "made to appeal to women" by taking away things "girls didn't like", like blood and gore?

Whereas Kyrie is the stereotypical damsel-in-distress blank slate who has no admirable characteristics of her own and just exists as a love interest for Nero?

Whereas Gloria runs around wearing extremely inappropriate clothing (no panties!) and moving so sexually you'd think her vagina was landing all those kicks on demons (and just in case anyone missed it there's a closeup of her labia as she delivers one such kick), infiltrates a religious organization through deception and trickery as opposed to all the hardworking men that were there?

Whereas Lady (in DMC4) suddenly gets a boob job and wears clothing more appropriate for a party than demon hunting, has an unhealthy fixation on money, and whatever mission she made for herself by the end of the last game got shoved off in favor of her throwing work on the men she knows rather than doing it herself?

Whereas Echidna's the only female boss in that game and exists to whine and gripe about her children and reproduction until she gets slapped around and shot?
That's some good misogyny indeed.

 

[ZeroLove]

Whereas Trish is just defined by the fact that she looked like Dante's mother and was a damsel in distress, and any sign of compassion and niceness she shows gets completely invalidated by the anime that made her into such an insufferable loner that even though she gave her life to save Dante, her later giving him pointers about a demon that wants to kill him is "unusually kind" of her?

Whereas Lady's defined by her being an irrational bitch (you can tell she was a bitch and not just "assertive" or straightforward because she was racist, hypocritical, wrong about her ideas, was hysterical about her issues and basically threw a tantrum everywhere) and her confrontation with Dante came about less because it made narrative sense but more because she needed to be taken down a couple of notches, where as soon as she got her ass kicked she got all soft and vulnerable/conventional and was all right with Dante going off to fight her battles for her, and she didn't get to complete her life's mission until after Dante and Vergil did most of the legwork and left her enemy crippled for her?

Whereas Nevan the only other female boss in the game runs around with her breasts just barely covered by her hair, talks like a whore, and her most notable trait is that she had an attraction for Sparda and then his son?

Whereas DMC4 was "made to appeal to women" by taking away things "girls didn't like", like blood and gore?

Whereas Kyrie is the stereotypical damsel-in-distress blank slate who has no admirable characteristics of her own and just exists as a love interest for Nero?

Whereas Gloria runs around wearing extremely inappropriate clothing (no panties!) and moving so sexually you'd think her vagina was landing all those kicks on demons (and just in case anyone missed it there's a closeup of her labia as she delivers one such kick), infiltrates a religious organization through deception and trickery as opposed to all the hardworking men that were there?

Whereas Lady (in DMC4) suddenly gets a boob job and wears clothing more appropriate for a party than demon hunting, has an unhealthy fixation on money, and whatever mission she made for herself by the end of the last game got shoved off in favor of her throwing work on the men she knows rather than doing it herself?

Whereas Echidna's the only female boss in that game and exists to whine and gripe about her children and reproduction until she gets slapped around and shot?
That's some good misogyny indeed.

You got spunk. It's cool. But where does this come from? Do you have a hatred for the original series and a fanboyish fanaticism about DmC? Because I really don't hope so.

 

[Macabre]

Brother, I never said that Devil May Cry has ever had a history of decent treatment for women. I thought the whole point of this reboot was that we were going to hold this new continuity to a higher standard of quality than the previous one, so really what you're resorting to is ad hominem versus a perfectly fair description.

God knows DMC was flawed left and right, the whole series was born out of an aborted RE4 for God's sake, and it seems to have been killed before it could hammer out the perfect storm of high level gameplay and good story telling.

NT have replaced it with Image Comics level garbage with pretensions of high art and gameplay that's like swan diving into a petri dish.

 

[Dante Redgrave]

Sexual abuse as backstory, defenceless without men

...WHAT Sexual abuse? Being beat when she was a kid? And she wasn't defenseless, but considering she was going up against demons and demon backed friggin cops, yeah, she can seem underwhelmed. Kat is also very waifish physically, her skills are in tactics and recon, as well handling the Limbo gates and various magics then needed. I'd hardly call her defenseless in totality.

 

[Morgan]

You got spunk. It's cool. But where does this come from? Do you have a hatred for the original series and a fanboyish fanaticism about DmC? Because I really don't hope so.

I don't have a fanboyish fanaticism about DmC, no, and pointing out that the original series had 10 years to get its **** together when portraying women and failed at it isn't anywhere near that.

 

[ZeroLove]

Ooooh, I didn't notice him editing the post above.

I wouldn't call it sexist though. I would call it realistic. Women are flawed, like men are. No one is perfect. How is it sexist to NOT make perfect female characters? It's not like the male characters in the series are perfect either. Dante isn't really the sharpest guy out there and Vergil is a corrupt moron.

I don't have a fanboyish fanaticism about DmC, no, and pointing out that the original series had 10 years to get its **** together when portraying women and failed at it isn't anywhere near that.

Ahh... Are you a feminist? Because then you might get along with Meg.

 

[Macabre]

...WHAT Sexual abuse? Being beat when she was a kid? And she wasn't defenseless, but considering she was going up against demons and demon backed friggin cops, yeah, she can seem underwhelmed. Kat is also very waifish physically, her skills are in tactics and recon, as well handling the Limbo gates and various magics then needed. I'd hardly call her defenseless in totality.

"Attacked" every night? What imagery does her description bring to mind exactly? And abuse, sexual of otherwise, has to be handled well in order to bring actual depth to a character's back story. She just up and exposits about it in deadpan, and it's supposed to add this emotional investment to her. It just feels hollow, without real perspective on the nature of abuse or the intense emotions that come with it.

Keep in mind also, that this is a game where physical strength and combat prowess is basically everything, where every character is defined by their characteristics in battle and there is where each makes their influence known. By not having a potent combat presence both Lillith and Kat are made impotent by the work as a whole, regardless of what power they might wield otherwise.

And really, women having a utilitarian role, like holding a child or pulling you back to safety after you've been out to battle, is making their role closer to the mother who calls you in after a day of play.

Kat really is set up to be as manipulative to the male player as possible without cleavage. She's defenceless, so you feel the need to protect her. But we can't have a mission where you physically protect her though, God knows that might actually have gameplay tell the story instead of lengthy deadpan exposition.

Plus: Vergil should have given her a gat to keep the cops at bay. Like everyone else in the Order. But then we couldn't have the heavy handed "Cops r teh evulzs" scenes.

 

[Loopy]

While the hell would Mundas even settle on her as a carrier for his spawn? Wouldn't he want some kind of neigh-godlike powerhouse to protect his unborn?

He was never given sex ed class so knocking Lilith up was an accident :troll: