• Welcome to the Devil May Cry Community Forum!

    We're a group of fans who are passionate about the Devil May Cry series and video gaming.

    Register Log in

The odd morality.

Macabre

Your Friend and Mine
i almost feel like your comparing Kat to princess peach who has no inherit value other than to bake and clean and sing melodies..... My god....... IT MAKES SENSE NOW..... who else is gonna be in the kitchen making mario a sandwich :troll:

Hell, I'd say that even Peach is a more empowered character than Kat, as demonstrated by Super Princess Peach, also know as Shigeru's Sexism Adventure.

I'm sorry, Macabre, but I disagree. Like Kaizen said...

and empowered does not have to mean Badass pew pew pew Bang bang if she can at least do what she can at all times than shes pretty empowered already

And again I'll say that I don't have a problem with a character taking a support role regardless of gender, but it's the body of work as a whole which bothers me.

What bothers me much more is the absence of gameplay being used as a means of story telling. The fact that you never fight alongside Kat or Vergil, the fact that you never have to perform unique gameplay tasks in order to further the plot. There's no protecting Kat like Ashley in RE4, there's no Vergil pushing your poop in while you can barely fight back like Zeus in God of War 2, there's no exhausted stumble through the microwave corridor from MGS4, there's just nothing. It's just a mindless hack'n'slash game, so why bother? The real plot is told in cutscenes, right?

I'm sorry NT, but we live in an era where Infinity Ward (Of all people) redefined what you can do with interactive story telling while still being fun and exciting.


Is it so much to ask that we have at least a little character development come out of the gameplay? Or a little anything out of it, Mr Genius Auteur?

Keep in mind I'm not asking for copies of the scenes I mentioned, just sequences where you remain in control and play a part in the story telling.
 

KaizenShio

Well-known Member
well you want more, i got just enough half of this fanbase is half and half..........It is such a minuscule thing to me at this point
 

KaizenShio

Well-known Member
I mean I didn't understand, sorry.
Then you should have said that before, I decided to give you a chance to respectfully do so

Apology accepted any who You wanted more out of the story i got enough the whole fanbase is half and half on the subject
 

Ether0

Nephilim Lover
It's a video game.... Why are people debating the merits of foster care for a fiction demon child. It's not real. To me this is perhaps one of the most senseless debate I have ever stumbled upon, well maybe not as senseless as that whole white hair thing, but at the end of the day it's just a game and some of you guys are reading way too far into it's plot...
 

Macabre

Your Friend and Mine
It's a video game.... Why are people debating the merits of foster care for a fiction demon child. It's not real. To me this is perhaps one of the most senseless debate I have ever stumbled upon, well maybe not as senseless as that whole white hair thing, but at the end of the day it's just a game and some of you guys are reading way too far into it's plot...

Because this is meant to be a deep and thought-provoking work of fiction, as described by the lead author himself. If you want to claim you are creating high art and spit on the legacy of the IP you are working on, you have to be held to a higher standard of critique than a game which admits to being puerile. Nobody has analysed Forza Motorsport as a dissection of the first world's oil dependancy because the head dev isn't stupid enough to claim it is.

If a game is supposed to be a topical examination of corruption in the modern world with characters making morally reprehensible decisions such as infanticide and fratricide, we're going to talk about it, because it's intellectually lazy not to.

And if you try that "it's a videogame" codswallop again we are going to have to step outside.

And have a pleasant walk.
 

Ether0

Nephilim Lover
Because this is meant to be a deep and thought-provoking work of fiction, as described by the lead author himself. If you want to claim you are creating high art and spit on the legacy of the IP you are working on, you have to be held to a higher standard of critique than a game which admits to being puerile. Nobody has analysed Forza Motorsport as a dissection of the first world's oil dependancy because the head dev isn't stupid enough to claim it is.

If a game is supposed to be a topical examination of corruption in the modern world with characters making morally reprehensible decisions such as infanticide and fratricide, we're going to talk about it, because it's intellectually lazy not to.

And if you try that "it's a videogame" codswallop again we are going to have to step outside.

And have a pleasant walk.
I get where your coming from I really do but I would have to disagree on a few points. Firstly I would say they are not spitting on the IP just giving a very different take on it It happens in comic books and movies all the time, just don't get why it becomes a big deal when it happens in video games and ends up becoming a senseless back and forth. It's the internet, no one is going to ever change their opinion, everyone is as stubborn as a mule. The second thing is, well I am not too sure when this DmC plot was ever described as high art, I have not read every bit of news but that seems new to me.

To the actual point of this thread, and the one you seem to be making about these characters in reference to the who Lilith and baby murder thing and Dante having no massive reaction to it, well that was something I noticed as well but I just chalked it up to them running for their lives and not having the time for it. Could NT have added a scene where Dante and Vergil have it out over it? Yeah and it would have served the story better probably but nothing is perfect. In the end I think that moment was just another point to show players that Vergil is not really a good honorable guy and it serves that purpose well.
 

Macabre

Your Friend and Mine
I get where your coming from I really do but I would have to disagree on a few points. Firstly I would say they are not spitting on the IP just giving a very different take on it It happens in comic books and movies all the time, just don't get why it becomes a big deal when it happens in video games and ends up becoming a senseless back and forth. It's the internet, no one is going to ever change their opinion, everyone is as stubborn as a mule. The second thing is, well I am not too sure when this DmC plot was ever described as high art, I have not read every bit of news but that seems new to me.

Antonaides has made it clear in various interviews that he regards classic DMC as always having been shallow and without meaning, as well as constantly stating that he though Dante as a character is laughable, on every level. While it is true that on the whole the series is fairly disposable in terms of greater meaning, it has had it's moments of exceptional symbolic subtlety, high class direction and surprisingly beautiful moralizing on subjects such as of fraternal conflict, sins of the father, racial prejudice and reconciling dual heritage. By showing an antipathy toward the accomplishments of the previous games he put a bad taste in everyone's mouths, and when he did state that DmC was going to be this story that would put gaming on the map as a creative medium on par with film he set everyone's expectations, as well as loathing, incredibly high. The product he ultimately delivered removes all of that subtlety that could be found in DMC3 and has the characters flatly exposit their views and every character detail in deadpan, failing to deliver even the emotional weight that NT have managed in the past with games such as Heavenly Sword.

It's like if Michael Bay rebooted Lord of the Rings and kept calling Peter Jackson a faggot.

Quite frankly I feel a bit offended at the assertion that members on this forum shouldn't bother discussing their opinions on the games they love, and that we aren't capable of having a sophisticated discussion or change our minds about them. I've come to appreciate the series in new ways and notice it's flaws more acutely thanks to internet discussion, and we should all enjoy our chance to talk about DMC with other fans.

...I mean what did you come to this forum for?

To the actual point of this thread, and the one you seem to be making about these characters in reference to the who Lilith and baby murder thing and Dante having no massive reaction to it, well that was something I noticed as well but I just chalked it up to them running for their lives and not having the time for it. Could NT have added a scene where Dante and Vergil have it out over it? Yeah and it would have served the story better probably but nothing is perfect. In the end I think that moment was just another point to show players that Vergil is not really a good honorable guy and it serves that purpose well.

The real problem is that a lack of good execution or allowing the events to have a profound effect on the characters, which is something that happens throughout the whole game really. Having characters react to events is the key to character development and having them achieve depth. Without any of the characters actually react or have their personas significantly altered by events the story is completely flat. In Vergil's case his arc is:

1. Be introduced.
2. Imply that he's evil
3. Turn out to be evil.

At least Dante has ONE plot event that gives him character development (Phineas's counsel), but seeing as it's only one it's less of an arc and more of a 90 degree angle.
 

mrrandomlulz

Monsuuuta moonssuta mo mo mo mo monsuuta
I remember a lot of effed up things from Dante's Inferno, none of which compared to the level 2 Lust she-males that used there dicks as weapons
 

Winterfrost

Shadow-of-Sundered-Star
I remember a lot of effed up things from Dante's Inferno, none of which compared to the level 2 Lust she-males that used there dicks as weapons
The other thing I loved was the Dante's Inferno anime (on netflix)
the only problem I hated about it was all the damn directors they had, like they kept changing his appearance, they should of just left it alone with the first Director that made it look like Dante from the game. It was awesome, especially the King Minos fight in the anime, all the blood got unto him and he just did that lifeless stance you'd see in some shows.
 

Loopy

Devil hunter in training
I remember a lot of effed up things from Dante's Inferno, none of which compared to the level 2 Lust she-males that used there dicks as weapons
What about Lucifer being totally naked and having his dick hanging out....>_< Then there was Cleopatra and her demon-spawning boobs.....some things just did not need to be seen :p
 

Macabre

Your Friend and Mine
The other thing I loved was the Dante's Inferno anime (on netflix)
the only problem I hated about it was all the damn directors they had, like they kept changing his appearance, they should of just left it alone with the first Director that made it look like Dante from the game. It was awesome, especially the King Minos fight in the anime, all the blood got unto him and he just did that lifeless stance you'd see in some shows.

That movie was as lousy and poorly conceived as the game that spawned it. You know you fail at animating scythe combat when Soul Eater is doing a more realistic job than you.

Also, does DI have anything to do with what we were discussing?
 

Winterfrost

Shadow-of-Sundered-Star
That movie was as lousy and poorly conceived as the game that spawned it. You know you fail at animating scythe combat when Soul Eater is doing a more realistic job than you.

Also, does DI have anything to do with what we were discussing?
I love Soul Eater...
And yes, it does..
Demon babies and killing them, bam.
 

Loopy

Devil hunter in training
I love Soul Eater...
And yes, it does..
Demon babies and killing them, bam.
Lots of dead babies. Weren't they the unbaptised babies? That's why they were damned. Kinda harsh.
So, because a lot of babies get killed, it lessens the impact for me.
Whereas DmC, I guess the way it was done, has more....something.:p I guess it would mean more if it wasn't a demon baby and said spawn hadn't tried to kill Dante. At least, that's how I see it. But weirdly enough I felt sorry for Lilith because she looked so pathetic, nearly crying like that.
 

Macabre

Your Friend and Mine
I love Soul Eater...
And yes, it does..
Demon babies and killing them, bam.

Well it that game the children were the Unabsolved, who in Catholic mythology died before they could be baptised and thus were gripped by Original Sin. Therefore their souls were full of evil as a matter of fact because of the setting they exist in.

Demons in DmC's universe aren't inexorably evil on the other hand; even pure demons such as Sparda or Phineas are capable of altruism, compassion and mercy. Therefore the comparison is fallacious and poorly thought out.

Although Dante's Inferno was obnoxious, shallow and deliberately offensive just like DmC, so I suppose the comparison has some merit. Zing.
 

Winterfrost

Shadow-of-Sundered-Star
Well it that game the children were the Unabsolved, who in Catholic mythology died before they could be baptised and thus were gripped by Original Sin. Therefore their souls were full of evil as a matter of fact because of the setting they exist in.

Demons in DmC's universe aren't inexorably evil on the other hand; even pure demons such as Sparda or Phineas are capable of altruism, compassion and mercy. Therefore the comparison is fallacious and poorly thought out.

Although Dante's Inferno was obnoxious, shallow and deliberately offensive just like DmC, so I suppose the comparison has some merit. Zing.
Whatever they are, they scare me.
 

Macabre

Your Friend and Mine
I guess it would mean more if it wasn't a demon baby and said spawn hadn't tried to kill Dante. At least, that's how I see it. But weirdly enough I felt sorry for Lilith because she looked so pathetic, nearly crying like that.

It was defending itself and it's mother from some home invading gremlin faced sociopathic prick with a longsword! Are you telling me you wouldn't try to protect yourself and your mother in those circumstances! Does that make you evil?! God almighty...

Yeah, and Lillith starts crying. In a Devil May Cry game. Yeah.

I know it's meant to be a new continuity, but the whole reason the series is named that is because demon's can't flipping cry. They are incapable of pity or despair.

I know it's a minor detail, but it's also the reason the game has this title! Why does the theme of devil's tears only show up in the game to contradict the prior continuity?
 

mrrandomlulz

Monsuuuta moonssuta mo mo mo mo monsuuta
It was defending itself and it's mother from some home invading gremlin faced sociopathic prick with a longsword! Are you telling me you wouldn't try to protect yourself and your mother in those circumstances! Does that make you evil?! God almighty...

Yeah, and Lillith starts crying. In a Devil May Cry game. Yeah.

I know it's meant to be a new continuity, but the whole reason the series is named that is because demon's can't flipping cry. They are incapable of pity or despair.

I know it's a minor detail, but it's also the reason the game has this title! Why does the theme of devil's tears only show up in the game to contradict the prior continuity?

mlfw8949-sweetiebellewrong2.png


The series was originally called that because Devil's couldn't cry, until DMC3, when Lady said "Even a Devil may cry when he loses a loved one."
 

Morgan

Well-known Member
Premium
Xen-Ace 2021
"Attacked" every night? What imagery does her description bring to mind exactly? And abuse, sexual of otherwise, has to be handled well in order to bring actual depth to a character's back story. She just up and exposits about it in deadpan, and it's supposed to add this emotional investment to her. It just feels hollow, without real perspective on the nature of abuse or the intense emotions that come with it.

She just "up and exposits about it deadpan" because she emotionally distanced herself from the events using the same powers she was shown to have: she wandered Limbo in spirit form to escape the abuse as best as she could. People do try to dissociate themselves from trauma even without psychic powers, if you knew anything about that. There's also the possibility that they were so affected by the event that they speak in monotone/deadpan because of the effort needed to distance themselves. Or, y'know, Kat just sounds like that because she's always sounded like that.

Contrary to what you might have seen in media or whatever, victims of rape aren't all immediately rendered into emotionally frail buckets of tears that can't go anywhere near their trauma without exploding with emotions, nor do they all resort to hypermasculine behavior and become badass killing machines with guns and swords like their rape was some hidden on-switch for being cool that gave them experience points to level up with.

You know what some victims do? They get over it. Shocking, right? They don't let their rape define who they are. They find constructive outlets so that they don't focus on the traumatic incident. They can even go for months at a time without thinking about it. They live their lives, have friends, don't let the event hover over them like a storm cloud coloring every interaction they'll ever have with anyone ever, and leave the past in the past. That happens. That's exactly what Kat does. She turns to honing her powers as a medium. She has a trusting relationship with both Vergil and Dante and doesn't think of them as "potential rapists". She has friends in the Order aside from those two. She can talk about her trauma, even with initial reservations ("it's in the past," etc.) instead of bottling everything up.

Turns out, the idea of all women being one unwanted penis away from getting their entire life wrecked is bullshit, and that it is possible for a woman to have a healthy, happy life as an individual in spite of the assault and not because of it, and not be considered some weak little thing nor does her answer to everything turn into "shoot it in the face". Who knew?

@randomlulz: The "Devil May Cry" title drop was originally in the first game's booklet, with Enzo Ferino's testimony in regards to Dante. "I tell ya, he glares at a guy, even the devil may cry!"-- because a guy that makes even inhuman monsters start bawling just because of his glare must be A) incredibly ruthless to them to garner that response, and B) a badass.

But nobody reads booklets anymore. :(
 

Loopy

Devil hunter in training
It was defending itself and it's mother from some home invading gremlin faced sociopathic prick with a longsword! Are you telling me you wouldn't try to protect yourself and your mother in those circumstances!
No, that wasn't what I was saying. Depending on how a person views this game, Dante could be seen as right, and so could the spawn for defending.

Does that make you evil?!
I think this will answer that. 'There is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so'. We are using our own moral views, our own judgements to impose on a videogame whether a character is 'good' or 'evil'. But those words are infantile. Why must they be good or evil. Surely all characters are capable of acts seen as either good or bad depending on the viewer.
 
Top Bottom