The odd morality.

[mrrandomlulz]

She just "up and exposits about it deadpan" because she emotionally distanced herself from the events using the same powers she was shown to have: she wandered Limbo in spirit form to escape the abuse as best as she could. People do try to dissociate themselves from trauma even without psychic powers, if you knew anything about that. There's also the possibility that they were so affected by the event that they speak in monotone/deadpan because of the effort needed to distance themselves. Or, y'know, Kat just sounds like that because she's always sounded like that.

Contrary to what you might have seen in media or whatever, victims of rape aren't all immediately rendered into emotionally frail buckets of tears that can't go anywhere near their trauma without exploding with emotions, nor do they all resort to hypermasculine behavior and become badass killing machines with guns and swords like their rape was some hidden on-switch for being cool that gave them experience points to level up with.

You know what some victims do? They get over it. Shocking, right? They don't let their rape define who they are. They find constructive outlets so that they don't focus on the traumatic incident. They can even go for months at a time without thinking about it. They live their lives, have friends, don't let the event hover over them like a storm cloud coloring every interaction they'll ever have with anyone ever, and leave the past in the past. That happens. That's exactly what Kat does. She turns to honing her powers as a medium. She has a trusting relationship with both Vergil and Dante and doesn't think of them as "potential rapists". She has friends in the Order aside from those two. She can talk about her trauma, even with initial reservations ("it's in the past," etc.) instead of bottling everything up.

Turns out, the idea of all women being one unwanted penis away from getting their entire life wrecked is bullshit, and that it is possible for a woman to have a healthy, happy life as an individual in spite of the assault and not because of it, and not be considered some weak little thing nor does her answer to everything turn into "shoot it in the face". Who knew?

@randomlulz: The "Devil May Cry" title drop was originally in the first game's booklet, with Enzo Ferino's testimony in regards to Dante. "I tell ya, he glares at a guy, even the devil may cry!"-- because a guy that makes even inhuman monsters start bawling just because of his glare must be A) incredibly ruthless to them to garner that response, and B) a badass.

But nobody reads booklets anymore.

I remember playing NES WITHOUT The manuals. It was my uncles old one (After all, where else would I get an NES in the year 2004) and I absolutely had no IDEA what to do.

 

[Macabre]

The series was originally called that because Devil's couldn't cry, until DMC3, when Lady said "Even a Devil may cry when he loses a loved one."

...which she said in reference to Dante, who was weeping over the loss of his brother...and Dante is half human. Full blooded demons can't cry in this setting; it's one of their defining traits. Even Trish is defined as being a pseudo-human/demonic homonculus.

She just "up and exposits about it deadpan" because she emotionally distanced herself from the events using the same powers she was shown to have: she wandered Limbo in spirit form to escape the abuse as best as she could. People do try to dissociate themselves from trauma even without psychic powers, if you knew anything about that. There's also the possibility that they were so affected by the event that they speak in monotone/deadpan because of the effort needed to distance themselves. Or, y'know, Kat just sounds like that because she's always sounded like that.

Yeah, deadpan exposition. Also known as boring, flat story telling which doesn't help the viewer empathize with the character's plight or take advantage of the fantasy setting to explore complex emotions or dire circumstance. And who abused her? Oh, a demon. Not a human being with reasons, justifications and depth. Just a demon. Great, just simplify the nature of abuse and weaken fiction as a whole. Marvellous.

And don't try condescending to someone you've never met on the trauma they have experienced. It's bad manners.

Contrary to what you might have seen in media or whatever, victims of rape aren't all immediately rendered into emotionally frail buckets of tears that can't go anywhere near their trauma without exploding with emotions, nor do they all resort to hypermasculine behavior and become badass killing machines with guns and swords like their rape was some hidden on-switch for being cool that gave them experience points to level up with.

You know what some victims do? They get over it. Shocking, right? They don't let their rape define who they are. They find constructive outlets so that they don't focus on the traumatic incident. They can even go for months at a time without thinking about it. They live their lives, have friends, don't let the event hover over them like a storm cloud coloring every interaction they'll ever have with anyone ever, and leave the past in the past. That happens. That's exactly what Kat does. She turns to honing her powers as a medium. She has a trusting relationship with both Vergil and Dante and doesn't think of them as "potential rapists". She has friends in the Order aside from those two. She can talk about her trauma, even with initial reservations ("it's in the past," etc.) instead of bottling everything up.

Yes, and the act of getting over it is exciting, interesting and thought-provoking fiction, where you can explore dark feelings and gain perspective. We never have Kat have her actions coloured by her past experiences, apart from of course her prejudice against demons, so it doesn't feel like a meaningful part of her characterisation. You'd think her being literally being bound up by a demon God and being at his mercy would trigger some kind of scene with her. Imagine how powerful it could have been for us to see Mundas to try and break her, especially seeing as we know she has a painful past with abuse, and actually seeing her resist and defy a GOD to his face. That would have given her a potent character moment, underline how despicable Mundas is and illustrate what you and I know about abuse: that it either breaks us, or hardens us.

Instead Kat's history of abuse is a one-off footnote that she dryly tells us about and never offers a chance for decent character exploration. This game is weak. It's shark weak.

Turns out, the idea of all women being one unwanted penis away from getting their entire life wrecked is bullshit, and that it is possible for a woman to have a healthy, happy life as an individual in spite of the assault and not because of it, and not be considered some weak little thing nor does her answer to everything turn into "shoot it in the face". Who knew?

No, she uses Dante and Vergil to do that for her. Kat's a bigotted terrorist, okay. She is fighting to oust and destroy a supernatural dictatorship from power in retaliation for it's treatment of her and mankind. There is no reason why such a character should not pick up a weapon and physically fight for their beliefs, unless specifically defined otherwise.

@randomlulz: The "Devil May Cry" title drop was originally in the first game's booklet, with Enzo Ferino's testimony in regards to Dante. "I tell ya, he glares at a guy, even the devil may cry!"-- because a guy that makes even inhuman monsters start bawling just because of his glare must be A) incredibly ruthless to them to garner that response, and B) a badass.

But nobody reads booklets anymore.

I'm pretty sure Enzo's just waxing poetic. In very literal terms Devil's can't cry in this setting and have never in the past be shown to do so, even when confronted by Dante. It's BECAUSE they can't cry that it's an effective boast.

No, that wasn't what I was saying. Depending on how a person views this game, Dante could be seen as right, and so could the spawn for defending.

I think this will answer that. 'There is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so'. We are using our own moral views, our own judgements to impose on a videogame whether a character is 'good' or 'evil'. But those words are infantile. Why must they be good or evil. Surely all characters are capable of acts seen as either good or bad depending on the viewer.

It's pretty childish in itself to call the act of moralizing "infantile" when it's one of the longest pondered concepts in the history of the sentient mind.

And if you want to question as to why morality is important in heroic fiction, you need only to look at any other work of heroic fiction ever written.

 

[mrrandomlulz]

...which she said in reference to Dante, who was weeping over the loss of his brother...and Dante is half human. Full blooded demons can't cry in this setting; it's one of their defining traits. Even Trish is defined as being a pseudo-human/demonic homonculus.

.

Jokes on you

And now that you have so foolishly made that comment, need I remind you, that the game is called Devil MAY Cry, not Devil NEVER cry.

 

[Loopy]

It's pretty childish in itself to call the act of moralizing "infantile" when it's one of the longest pondered concepts in the history of the sentient mind.

I did not call moralizing infantile, simply the notion of good an evil. One persons idea of good is anothers evil. Life is not that simple. There is no good and evil, only the perception of it based on the viewer of the act.

Human morality is not innate. It is learned. Children are selfish, cruel violent, liars. They are socialised and taught to supporess these urges in favour of more socially acceptable behaviour.

 

[Ether0]

Antonaides has made it clear in various interviews that he regards classic DMC as always having been shallow and without meaning, as well as constantly stating that he though Dante as a character is laughable, on every level. While it is true that on the whole the series is fairly disposable in terms of greater meaning, it has had it's moments of exceptional symbolic subtlety, high class direction and surprisingly beautiful moralizing on subjects such as of fraternal conflict, sins of the father, racial prejudice and reconciling dual heritage. By showing an antipathy toward the accomplishments of the previous games he put a bad taste in everyone's mouths, and when he did state that DmC was going to be this story that would put gaming on the map as a creative medium on par with film he set everyone's expectations, as well as loathing, incredibly high. The product he ultimately delivered removes all of that subtlety that could be found in DMC3 and has the characters flatly exposit their views and every character detail in deadpan, failing to deliver even the emotional weight that NT have managed in the past with games such as Heavenly Sword.

It's like if Michael Bay rebooted Lord of the Rings and kept calling Peter Jackson a faggot.

Quite frankly I feel a bit offended at the assertion that members on this forum shouldn't bother discussing their opinions on the games they love, and that we aren't capable of having a sophisticated discussion or change our minds about them. I've come to appreciate the series in new ways and notice it's flaws more acutely thanks to internet discussion, and we should all enjoy our chance to talk about DMC with other fans.

...I mean what did you come to this forum for?



The real problem is that a lack of good execution or allowing the events to have a profound effect on the characters, which is something that happens throughout the whole game really. Having characters react to events is the key to character development and having them achieve depth. Without any of the characters actually react or have their personas significantly altered by events the story is completely flat. In Vergil's case his arc is:

1. Be introduced.
2. Imply that he's evil
3. Turn out to be evil.

At least Dante has ONE plot event that gives him character development (Phineas's counsel), but seeing as it's only one it's less of an arc and more of a 90 degree angle.

Well I would have to disagree that the previous DMC games offered any bit of anything that was not just style and coolness. I don't think that is however a bad thing in the least. Not every game needs to be Bioshock Infinite.Bayonetta had the most absurd storyline I have played through in years but it was okay because it fit that world and the absurdity never broke the suspension of disbelief, that and the gameplay was fun so it did not matter in the end.

The only exception to that is DMC3 which out of the older games had the best, most well thought out and well developed plot. I did however feel as though I had seen that story a million times and at the time it came out I was really into Inuyasha and it felt as though I was playing a cooler version of the anime. The other 3 games had plots that ranged from okay to just awful. Once again it's not a serious knock because no one is playing a DMC game for plot for the most part. But that is of course my personal opinion.

As for Tameem saying all that, I would have to read the interviews or watch more of them but taking you at your word, it is a dumb thing to say and hyperbole at it's best. It's not too surprising given that almost 100% of game developers run around saying that kind of stuff and rarely is it even close to accurate. Does not excuse it in any way but it is fairly common. It is at least not to the level of Peter Molynuex lol.The other thing is that the man was in charge of directing this big reboot of a beloved series and from day one received massive ill will and hate and death threats. I think he was just trying to defend his project that he was spending 3-4 years of his life working on. Was it the best choice of words or the best route to do that? No of course not, but it is understandable to not want to sit back and take all the hate he was getting for just doing what Capcom wanted and giving Dante a redesign.

It does however like you said lead to a lot of raised expectations. For me, I really liked the story and think it is the best written and acted in the series. Not everything is great in it and yes they do miss some opportunities for great character development which is a shame but overall looking at it as a whole the plot is much better than the other ones imo. If you disagree that's fine, it is very different in terms of tone and subject matter from the previous games and is of course not for everyone. And again it's really my main concern with the game, since I don't play DMC games for stellar plots. It's more of a great bonus to have a story that makes some kind of sense and has the audacity to even think of character development.

 

[Macabre]

And now that you have so foolishly made that comment, need I remind you, that the game is called Devil MAY Cry, not Devil NEVER cry.

Yes, and that's still because it's a boast. It's like saying "I'll wait until the world ends" or "I'm strong enough to lift mountains" or "I'll spam pony macros because I know exactly what I'm talking about.". It's a statement built on a logical impossibility in order to make the person stating it seem more potent.

I did not call moralizing infantile, simply the notion of good an evil. One persons idea of good is anothers evil. Life is not that simple. There is no good and evil, only the perception of it based on the viewer of the act.

Human morality is not innate. It is learned. Children are selfish, cruel violent, liars. They are socialised and taught to supporess these urges in favour of more socially acceptable behaviour.

You are still quoting First Grade Philosophy at us, and you're still not structuring your statement to counterpoint the discussion. Do you believe that killing an infant is justified because babies haven't been through social conditioning?

 

[Loopy]

You are still quoting First Grade Philosophy at me, and you're still not structuring your statement to counterpoint the discussion. Do you believe that killing an infant is justified because babies haven't been through social conditioning?

Infant killing does happen. It is justifiable to the person carrying out the killing. The baby could be a burden, the carer could lose its temper with the constant demanding the infant makes, the infant was unwanted....it happens.Children don't know when to shut up; they don't know when they are irritating their carer to the point of being killed because of it.

As for whether I would think infant killing is justifiable, I don't care. If it's not my kid, then why should I care? Humans as a species are nothing special. We are self perpetuaing, and for no purpose as far as I can see. We are all vessels for our genes, for perpetuation; the things we do and things we create just pass time until death.

 

[Paexie]

Seriously why should I defend and feel bad for a woman that's been taunting me through a whole level and then attack me with her child?

Why should I feel bad for it and her? She was at Mundus' side, she was loyal to him. He isn't a really "mercy" sort of guy. Who knows what she would have done if she lived, maybe attack with the child again out of revenge? Seems highly plausible.

I honestly see why we should be angry at Vergil... but I don't see why I should be angry for how and why he did this.

 

[ZeroLove]

You guys are going in loops. Macabre and some others don't like that Vergil shot the demon spawn out of Lilith's stomach while others did. Perhaps it is time to just agree to disagree, as your arguements are the same over and over again.

 

[DMC Fan]

Is it possible the spawn isnt dead. I mean it was chopped to bits and shrugged it off. It was shown leaving Liliths body and could obvously survive without her. It was also the son of Mundus, a god so it is it really possible it could be felled by a bullet

Vergil stabbbed Mundus in the back and he lived this was with Yamato and Mundus was back moments later proclaiming arrogantly

"I am God! I am master of the universe........i am MUNDUS!".

Dante had to slice him in half to kill him so maybe the child slunk off

to become.......Rebooted Nero

 

[Ether0]

Is it possible the spawn isnt dead. I mean it was chopped to bits and shrugged it off. It was shown leaving Liliths body and could obvously survive without her. It was also the son of Mundus, a god so it is it really possible it could be felled by a bullet

Vergil stabbbed Mundus in the back and he lived this was with Yamato and Mundus was back moments later proclaiming arrogantly

"I am God! I am master of the universe........i am MUNDUS!".

Dante had to slice him in half to kill him so maybe the child slunk off

to become.......Rebooted Nero

That would be interesting, would probably make Nero a lot more interesting as opposed to being a weird Dante clone character/ nephew/ Ichigo guy lol. I think it's probably dead, if they wanted to have that as a possible plot thread NT would probably have given us a bit of a hint.

 

[DMC Fan]

It all happens so fast

1. Vergil blasts Lilith..and she looks down at her stomach

2.A bullet slams into her head,killing her as she wails in horror . The swat team fire in earnest..Mundus turns away,silently raging

3. Mundus absorbs power.....

4. DanteVergil and a wounded Kat flee as Mundus stands before the window.."you dont **** with a god he growls". Then fires his weapon

That energy gave Mundus vitallity right...and he fired it where Lilith was lying maybe healing the child

I would do it that Sanctus is a Mundus worshipper and runs a Demon cult and takes the child in and brain washes it to dielSparda,s blood. Kyrie would be a unwitting member she beleives Mundus to be God

Nero himself would be a young,arrogant warrior who is basically inhabited by the spawn and they sort of merge so he forgets his true apperance.......I like the idea of him being well spoken and avoids cursing.......you know the image of a perfect guy but unknown to him he is a beast

 

[CheeseKao]

The old vergil sliced the heads of people who did nothing wrong. Both vergils are cold hearted killers.

 

[Paexie]

The old vergil sliced the heads of people who did nothing wrong. Both vergils are cold hearted killers.

Yeah, but they are bothered by the honorable part that seems to be missing in the new Vergil.

Then again, they were not in Limbo so he couldn't have used a long ranged attack...

 

[CheeseKao]

Yeah, but they are bothered by the honorable part that seems to be missing in the new Vergil.

Then again, they were not in Limbo so he couldn't have used a long ranged attack...

Cold blooded killers don't have a sense of honor to begin with so I'm not sure why people say that vergil lost something he never had in the first place.

 

[Paexie]

Cold blooded killers don't have a sense of honor to begin with so I'm not sure why people say that vergil lost something he never had in the first place.

I guess it's subjective too see that the original Vergil just didn't see guns as "honorable" to use as the sword.

They just hate the characterizations here. I'd admit that they fail at certain points, but the story isn't bad and there is room for an awesome expansion on these characters and ideas.

 

[Ether0]

It all happens so fast

1. Vergil blasts Lilith..and she looks down at her stomach

2.A bullet slams into her head,killing her as she wails in horror . The swat team fire in earnest..Mundus turns away,silently raging

3. Mundus absorbs power.....

4. DanteVergil and a wounded Kat flee as Mundus stands before the window.."you dont **** with a god he growls". Then fires his weapon

That energy gave Mundus vitallity right...and he fired it where Lilith was lying maybe healing the child

I would do it that Sanctus is a Mundus worshipper and runs a Demon cult and takes the child in and brain washes it to dielSparda,s blood. Kyrie would be a unwitting member she beleives Mundus to be God

Nero himself would be a young,arrogant warrior who is basically inhabited by the spawn and they sort of merge so he forgets his true apperance.......I like the idea of him being well spoken and avoids cursing.......you know the image of a perfect guy but unknown to him he is a beast

That actually could kinda work. As long as Nero would not be a big ball of unanswered questions and mystery( I mean that in a bad way) It could be cool, I like the idea of him being a sort of bad guy character. Although for him to actually be able to do anything he would need time to grow up and I think that if NT makes a sequel they would continue this young Dante's story

 

[Ether0]

Cold blooded killers don't have a sense of honor to begin with so I'm not sure why people say that vergil lost something he never had in the first place.

I agree, Vergil was willing to kill countless humans by unleashing hell to get power in DMC3 and that does not seem at all honorable. Dante had more honor and half his arsenal incorporated firearms. I like this new Vergil a bit better character wise, although I prefer the old Vergil's character design.

This new guy still has that lust for power but it's grounded in a sense that he is doing everything for the greater good and honestly believes that him ruling would be better for humanity which makes him a better villain than DMC3 Vergil who simply needed more power to become like Sparda, but completely destroys everything his father worked hard to achieve in order to get it.

 

[Macabre]

I've always been saddened by how so many fans mistake Classic Vergil as an honourable man.

The whole point of the two brothers and their interplay is that they're a study in contrasts. Dante is brash and extroverted yet has moments of deep thought, Vergil is reserved and introverted but is guided by passionate emotions. Dante uses guns and fights like a psychotic berserker, yet will always give his adversaries a chance at mercy before giving them the death blow (Griffin, Cerberus, Nevan, etc) whereas Vergil ostensibly abides by samurai law and despises all firearms, and yet defies Bushido by striking foes who are already down (Dante) or already injured (Beowulf).

It's a fallacy that fans often resort to when they're just disgusted with how poorly DmC handles the entire babycide scenario and don't know exactly how to articulate what exactly is so wrong about it.

I've made it pretty clear that I don't think it was necessarily a bad way of demonstrating Vergil's more despicable nature. In my favourite manga there's a point where the protagonist accidentally kills a little boy during an assassination.

The difference between Berserk and DmC is that the crime Guts has committed has a profound, soul crushing effect on him and those who are aware of it, which has echoes throughout the narrative from that point on. In DmC it's something to be blithely ignored and scooted on from, even bragged about after the fact.

I know, different mediums and everything, but off the top of your head, can you think of any video game narrative that has tried a move like this and treated it so incredibly badly?

 

[KaizenShio]

I've always been saddened by how so many fans mistake Classic Vergil as an honourable man.

The whole point of the two brothers and their interplay is that they're a study in contrasts. Dante is brash and extroverted, Vergil is reserved and introverted. Dante uses guns and fights like a psychotic berserker, yet will always give his adversaries a chance at mercy before giving them the death blow (Griffin, Cerberus, Nevan, etc) whereas Vergil ostensibly abides by samurai law and despises all firearms, and yet defies Bushido by striking foes who are already down (Dante) or already injured (Beowulf).

It's a fallacy that fans often resort to when they're just disgusted with how poorly DmC handles the entire babycide scenario and don't know exactly how to articulate what exactly is so wrong about it.

I've made it pretty clear that I don't think it was necessarily a bad way of demonstrating Vergil's more despicable nature. In my favourite manga there's a point where the protagonist accidentally kills a little boy during an assassination.

The difference between Berserk and DmC is that the crime Guts has committed has a profound, soul crushing effect on him and those who are aware of it, which has echoes throughout the narrative from that point on. In DmC it's something to be blithely ignored and scooted on from, even bragged about after the fact.

I know, different mediums and everything, but off the top of your head, can you think of any video game narrative that has tried a move like this and treated it so incredibly badly?

Ok I completely understand where your coming from if you had done this first I would have Understood you a lot more clearer I agree what your saying but dont mind that this element is missing in dmc