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New Vergil or Devil May Cry 3 Vergil?

Innsmouth said:
So now it's already four seconds instead of one?....Welp time of Vergil's enjoyment grows and grows with each next post. And it was still 10 seconds. Not because of video, but because of audio. Audio runs non-stomp, like Dante's asks "da fuq" with Lilith starting to scream after that. The only part that could be parallel is small fragment where Mundus was shown
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You're still whining about a few seconds of time? Get over it already.

To the dude claiming DMC lacks plot-holes, we already talked about them last year

http://devilmaycry.org/threads/plot-holes-questions-and-inconsistencies-of-dmc.15559/
 
TWOxACROSS said:
I don't know, why the hell does anyone have kids? There's any number of reasons; vanity, legacy, someone to someday take his place so he can go jerk it profusely on a beach in Tahiti and not have to worry about how the empire is running. The kid is still important to him, he obviously cared about it, why does a child even have to be part of some new, unheard of plan? Why is there even a need for a plan? Where did you come up with this idea that the child is part of some plan of Mundus'? Why can't he just have a child because he wants one?
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Wait, Phineas (i think that was his name) claimed Mundus don't loved his child or Lilith, but he needed him. He was important to him....why?



TWOxACROSS said:
Oh for the love of God who gives a sh!t?! One second, four seconds, ten seconds. What does this have to do with your original point? I don't even f#cking remember, but I'm almost positive it was some strawman bullsh!t anyway.
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Well it's once again typical of you. first you made claim, than when claim being proven to be mistake you are starting to scream that it's unimportant. Whole point it about Vergil being giant a-hole, who shot helpless woman in the back, enjoyed it, and only than finished the job. But according to you it's completely normal and awesome, and original game done far worse, by making us watch how giant snake demon got shot in the face.
 
Innsmouth said:
That wasn't question. Question is ...what was mundus' plan? what part of it his heir? He's immortal ruler of all world. Why is heir is even important to him.




So now it's already four seconds instead of one?....Welp time of Vergil's enjoyment grows and grows with each next post. And it was still 10 seconds. Not because of video, but because of audio. Audio runs non-stomp, like Dante's asks "da fuq" with Lilith starting to scream after that. The only part that could be parallel is small fragment where Mundus was shown
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Yup. Vergil shot her before she REALLY started suffering. Yeah, you're right. Didn't look like she was in pain, just shocked that she'd lost her usefulness.

Da fuq are you doing anyway Innsmouth? Feeling sorry for demons? Why aren't you going on about Dante letting that bird demon suffer in DMC 1? That guy was still talking before Mundus showed up to finish him.
 
The Final Offer said:
Yup. Vergil shot her before she REALLY started suffering. Yeah, you're right. Didn't look like she was in pain, just shocked that she'd lost her usefulness.

Da fuq are you doing anyway Innsmouth? Feeling sorry for demons? Why aren't you going on about Dante letting that bird demon suffer in DMC 1? That guy was still talking before Mundus showed up to finish him.
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But Dante needed to get p*ssed at Mundus for killing Featherface. The plot demanded it.
 
Innsmouth said:
Wait, Phineas (i think that was his name) claimed Mundus don't loved his child or Lilith, but he needed him. He was important to him....why?
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Half right. Phineas said he didn't care about or love Lilith. When Phineas mentions that Lilith was his weakness, Dante asks "So his weakness is that he loves her?" Phineas laughs and says no, she's carrying his child. "Kill Lilith, kill the child. Nothing will hurt him more." Mundus didn't care about Lilith, but he did care about his child, obviously he does considering the lengths he went to with his anger when that child was killed.

Innsmouth said:
Well it's once again typical of you. first you made claim, than when claim being proven to be mistake you are starting to scream that it's unimportant.
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I scream it's unimportant because you take things on such a retarded tangent that we lose sight of the original debate, because that's what you always do.

Innsmouth said:
Whole point it about Vergil being giant a-hole, who shot helpless woman in the back, enjoyed it, and only than finished the job. But according to you it's completely normal and awesome, and original game done far worse, by making us watch how giant snake demon got shot in the face.
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Yes! DmC Vergil is a giant asshole! He's a conniving, selfish, surreptitiously evil douchecanoe - that's what he's supposed to end up as, and it was our first really huge red flag that there was something more to Vergil. However, originally it was thought that people were b!tching about Vergil explicitly killed "a pregnant woman", hence all the f#cking chatter about Echidna and her own children in comparison. Kam said that wasn't the point, and so here we are.

And nowhere did I ever say that the Trade in DmC was "normal and awesome, and original game done far worse". Myself and others cited that in terms of the whole shooting mothers and children junk, the classics had their own stuff on par with the Trade's "abortion". However, that's not the point, as Kam clarified.
 
Yeah, the villain isn't supposed to be likable. That would defeat the purpose of being a really abhorrent, revolting, and detestable villain.

It's like when people accused the Far Cry 4 villain of racism/class-ism --

number 1. he wasn't white.

number 2. he's a villain, so of course he's going to treat those less fortunate than he is badly.

number 3. he's also supposed to be hated. Once again, that's the point of being a villain.

Generic boring villains who are liked are so tiresome these days. It's refreshing to have villains that are being created to specifically make you hate them. It really is.
 
Well, it's possible to have a likable villain, it's just not a standard. They're supposed to be someone you side against, sympathizing with the protagonists because it's their story. But Vaas is the kind of villain who hits that sort of happy medium between hating him because he's the bad guy, but liking him because he's an interesting character.

But yeah, it is getting kind of cliche these days that the villain has to be likable, sympathetic, or redeem themselves in the end. Although, much like anything these days, what was really new and interesting because it was different than what was done in the past, it's now such an established thing, and it's not nearly as interesting as it used to be, unless in specific cases where the character goes above and beyond to stand out in the sea of the "sympathetic antagonist".
 
Frostmourne said:
It also doesn't matter how you do it. Whether it's face-to-face or behind your back.
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This is the only thing that matters.

TWOxACROSS said:
They are total inconsistencies because they contradict what is previously told to us, and they do nothing to explain them, which is what makes them plot holes. They don't explain away the contradictions, so they remain plot holes. Plot holes require explanation to be filled! There are certain things that don't need to be said because they're just obvious, like "how did they get there?" and sh!t, but there not being an explanation for how Nero is somehow a Son of Sparda as Vergil's progeny makes very little sense from a timeline and personality perspective. The office sign changing back from Devil Never Cry makes very little sense because the phrase was impactful enough at the end of DMC1 for Dante to want to change it in the first place. They offer no explanations on the contrary, and everything that it contradicts is too reasonable to be modified, because what explanations could be theorized also contradict what we know.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plot_hole

Not explaining something to you does not make it a plot hole, no matter how badly you want an explanation to be there. If I rewrite eva's story a bit, I can give you a more concrete example of what a plothole is supposed to look like

Plot hole:
Eva is a totally ordinary human. 2000 years ago she was personally there to help sparda fight the demons. 30 years ago she gave birth to sparda's sons. All three of these statements cannot be true at the same time; eva cannot be an ordinary human, while simultaneously being over 2000 years old, and no explanation can resolve this paradox. This would make it a plot hole.

Not a plot hole:
I don't know how Nero was born, or why dante changed his sign the second time.

TWOxACROSS said:
Again, it's not that Vergil waits until those specific conditions, it's that it's his last opportunity to both appease Dante and still take out Mundus' heir. You don't like how he had to go about it, that's fine, but you can't ignore the legitimate reasoning for him doing so, because it's directly in line with his whole not giving a sh!t about humans like Kat, and selfishly following through on his goals.

There's also the fact that Vergil, as part of his plan, is not supposed to do anything that would make him stand out. Running around and slicing people up with supernatural strength and speed, with the one thing that can close the Hellgate, is literally the worst thing he could do. He was already enough of a target as it was when Kat revealed his name to Mundus.

All in all, you want him to have done something differently, which would completely go against his established character.
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When old vergil made a bid for sparda's power, he invited every demon, hunter, and even his brother to come try to stop him, his plan being to kill everyone who challenged him and then take the power as his prize. Sure, it's not the best plan and it would be way easier to do something sneaky, but in his eyes anything less of proving his absolute strength wouldn't have been the right way to claim the power of his father.

The fact that new vergil left these courses of action as his only available options is downright laughable. His only option was to hide in the shadows his whole life, make his brother do all the dirty work, use humans to gather intel, and then **** off his enemy with an underhanded trick so his brother would have an easier time? Those were his only options because he is weak.

It's not that I expected him to go against his established character, it's that I don't like his established character.
 
TWOxACROSS said:
Half right. Phineas said he didn't care about or love Lilith. When Phineas mentions that Lilith was his weakness, Dante asks "So his weakness is that he loves her?" Phineas laughs and says no, she's carrying his child. "Kill Lilith, kill the child. Nothing will hurt him more." Mundus didn't care about Lilith, but he did care about his child, obviously he does considering the lengths he went to with his anger when that child was killed.
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Oh, ok. From what I've seen I unerstood it differently, but maybe I mosunderstood it as child being part of giant plan, which will make question why he even need this plan. From it I can also finally understand why he still banged Lilith in the first place.



TWOxACROSS said:
And nowhere did I ever say that the Trade in DmC was "normal and awesome, and original game done far worse". Myself and others cited that in terms of the whole shooting mothers and children junk, the classics had their own stuff on par with the Trade's "abortion". However, that's not the point, as Kam clarified.
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IT's nowhere on par with it. Seriously anybody with basic understanding of writing can see it. In case of Echidna it was giant tree-snake producing offsprings endlessly every 10 seconds. She didn't tries to protect them. She only gets ****ed at Dante/Nero. In case of Lilith it's much more grounded version of pregnant woman and it was her only child. Who Vergil killed why Lilith was completely helpless and done it from behind. Which is far. far worse than DMC4.
The Final Offer said:
Yup. Vergil shot her before she REALLY started suffering. Yeah, you're right. Didn't look like she was in pain, just shocked that she'd lost her usefulness..
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The old woman literally cried, why Vergil laughed at it....Did you forgot it? Sadism can be psychological too, it doesn't necessary have to be physical

The Final Offer said:
Da fuq are you doing anyway Innsmouth? Feeling sorry for demons? Why aren't you going on about Dante letting that bird demon suffer in DMC 1? That guy was still talking before Mundus showed up to finish him.
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Yes, I do. And what are you talking about, When Griffin was squashed he insisted on keeping fighting Dante, to which Dante replied, that he can't fight in this state, which led to Griffin calling on Mundus, who killed him after that. Which led to Dante saying that he finds Mundus course of action disgusting for killing one of his own. That's what I find was so cool on several occasions with Dante: he didn't treat demons only as punchbags. There were several occasion where he communicated with them like with other characters, not only as with faceless enemy. The scene where Dante spared Lilith was the only one remotely close to original Dante imo, but than again I'm not sure he didn't do it only for Kat's sake.
 
Innsmouth said:
Oh, ok. From what I've seen I unerstood it differently, but maybe I mosunderstood it as child being part of giant plan, which will make question why he even need this plan. From it I can also finally understand why he still banged Lilith in the first place.

Seriously....if you couldn't understand THAT it doesn't really give anymore any reason to have faith in anything else you'd bring up.

IT's nowhere on par with it. Seriously anybody with basic understanding of writing can see it. In case of Echidna it was giant tree-snake producing offsprings endlessly every 10 seconds. She didn't tries to protect them. She only gets ****ed at Dante/Nero. In case of Lilith it's much more grounded version of pregnant woman and it was her only child. Who Vergil killed why Lilith was completely helpless and done it from behind. Which is far. far worse than DMC4.
The old woman literally cried, why Vergil laughed at it....Did you forgot it? Sadism can be psychological too, it doesn't necessary have to be physical

Smiling = Laughter? -Innsmouth Logic.

Yes, I do. And what are you talking about, When Griffin was squashed he insisted on keeping fighting Dante, to which Dante replied, that he can't fight in this state, which led to Griffin calling on Mundus, who killed him after that. Which led to Dante saying that he finds Mundus course of action disgusting for killing one of his own. That's what I find was so cool on several occasions with Dante: he didn't treat demons only as punchbags. There were several occasion where he communicated with them like with other characters, not only as with faceless enemy. The scene where Dante spared Lilith was the only one remotely close to original Dante imo, but than again I'm not sure he didn't do it only for Kat's sake.
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Let me list your problem with Lilith dying.

She looks like a human, therefore, you think it's worse than the others. So, let's compare.

Griffin was dying! Right. In. Front. Of. Dante. To quote Vegeta from Abridged. "I have a f***ing hole in my chest!"
Lilith was dying! Right. In. Front. Of. Vergil.


Griffin even yelled in agony and Dante just stood there watching him suffer. Could've just ended Griffin there right?
Lilith even yelled in agony and Vergil just stood there watching her suffer. He didn't laugh or did you forget?

That isn't mercy, because Dante has been slaughtering demons from the very beginning.
That isn't mercy, because Vergil has been slaughtering demons from the very beginning.

It's kind of the most twisted thing a Dante character has done.
It's kind of the most twisted thing a Vergil character has done.

Now, for the sake of this thread.

Staph.
 
The Final Offer said:
Let me list your problem with Lilith dying.

She looks like a human, therefore, you think it's worse than the others. So, let's compare.

Griffin was dying! Right. In. Front. Of. Dante. To quote Vegeta from Abridged. "I have a f***ing hole in my chest!"
Lilith was dying! Right. In. Front. Of. Vergil.


Griffin even yelled in agony and Dante just stood there watching him suffer. Could've just ended Griffin there right?
Lilith even yelled in agony and Vergil just stood there watching her suffer. He didn't laugh or did you forget?

That isn't mercy, because Dante has been slaughtering demons from the very beginning.
That isn't mercy, because Vergil has been slaughtering demons from the very beginning.

It's kind of the most twisted thing a Dante character has done.
It's kind of the most twisted thing a Vergil character has done.

Now, for the sake of this thread.

Staph.
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do you really serious? Griffin? 1. Griffith was intended to continue fight, if even suicide attack 2. Dante didn't wanted to fight him any farther. 3. It's not the same. Dante asked Griffin to stop, while Vergil was grinning in background while Lilith wailed. It's not about human look. It's about helpless, handcuffed woman, gets shot in the back. Or do you start counting all bosses from all games as example of cruel demon treatment?
 
Innsmouth said:
do you really serious? Griffin? 1. Griffith was intended to continue fight, if even suicide attack 2. Dante didn't wanted to fight him any farther. 3. It's not the same. Dante asked Griffin to stop, while Vergil was grinning in background while Lilith wailed. It's not about human look. It's about helpless, handcuffed woman, gets shot in the back. Or do you start counting all bosses from all games as example of cruel demon treatment?
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He went from Vergil laughed to Vergil grinned. Progress people.

He went from it being about a demon being killed to a demon getting shot in the back. Progress people, I'm wearing him down.

For my next magic trick, I'm going to make Innsmouth's bull**** disappear!

Innsmouth, she wasn't handcuffed.

Innsmouth, she wasn't helpless, hence Mundus's army.

What's your argument now? SHOT in the BACK?

This last one is for anyone. I know what you all see. FINISH HIM.

But no...I'll let him suffer a while longer with a smile on my face.

Show yourself out Innsmouth.
 
The Final Offer said:
He went from Vergil laughed to Vergil grinned. Progress people.

He went from it being about a demon being killed to a demon getting shot in the back. Progress people, I'm wearing him down.
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So.....no more arguments about Griffin?I kinda expected that you pull some more straw-crap about some other bosses getting unjustly killed. But guess you're just out of breath. bye.
 
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