New Vergil or Devil May Cry 3 Vergil?

[Blue_Rose]

Stop.

THANK YOU. What this guy said.

 

[WolfOD64]

Your rose tinted glasses for the DMC series are practically blindfolds.

^Ladies and Gentlemen...my favorite quote on this forum.

 

[Innsmouth]

I think you're being a little bit hyperbolic..

Just telling you how it sounds. That's all. So in the end it sounds to me like you complain about any single aspect of game, while kept telling you're supposed to be the fan. At this point I may as well claim I'm fan of DmC.

All the really cool action in the games. And despite the mostly unimpressive characters and rehashing the same "bad guy wants to open gate to Hell" plot at the core of every game, they are fun action games - they do action well. Controls aren't overly terrible (other than DMC1's, which is mostly in retrospect because DMC2 through 4 did it much better), and despite the controls having a clunky element or two, I still have a lot of fun with them. I love the sh!t out of Monster Hunter, and those games have had notoriously clunky controls to them..

Well MH is RPG, so it can have clunky control, but for the game that has only action in it to have clunky control is equals doom.

Of course, but a lot of people praise Kamiya for the insane action depicted in his later work, especially DMC and Bayonetta, but that was an outside company - U'den Flame Works. They are essentially praising the guy for constantly hiring the same choreography company.

Hell, I think most of PlatinumGames' games have their action choreographed by U'den Flame Works, so they're sorta praising the wrong company when they praise all that choreography.

You do know that outside of action there is also whole concept, idea writing and design?

 

[Innsmouth]

Wait...a few minutes...did you even play the game? The moment he blasted Lilith is the same moment he had an expression on his face like "Oh my gawd. I just killed a..." then he sucked that **** up and did what's best for humanity and himself. That's why when Dante asked him "Why'd you do that!?" he responds "I had to."

Also, Innsmouth, when you've got one chance at stopping the world of plummeting into Hell. You better make sure everything that's apart of that plan fails. NO LOOSE ENDS. YOU HEAR ME SOLDIER!?

Umm...aside from the fact that munduss heir was barely important and was just another small scale demon. He didn't had his father's immortality (so why do he need him again?). Well I dunno about face expressions, but I do know that he sure did his sweet time to take a second shot. Vergil didn't regret anything in game, even Kat being pummeled into the floor, and know you're trying to tell me he's sorry?

 

[Demi-fiend]

I guess you didn't hear me when I asked you guys to stop, huh?

 

[The Final Offer]

Umm...aside from the fact that munduss heir was barely important and was just another small scale demon. He didn't had his father's immortality (so why do he need him again?). Well I dunno about face expressions, but I do know that he sure did his sweet time to take a second shot. Vergil didn't regret anything in game, even Kat being pummeled into the floor, and know you're trying to tell me he's sorry?

Obviously, what I'm indicating, is that Vergil has never done anything like that in his life. Murdering something of that nature. It's something that had to be done.

OMG you did not just ask me why Mundus needed his heir. YOU DID NOT JUST ASK ME THAT! LA LA LA LA LA!

 

[Demi-fiend]

Even immortals need a backup plan. That's why they call it 'Plan B'.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

Just telling you how it sounds. That's all. So in the end it sounds to me like you complain about any single aspect of game, while kept telling you're supposed to be the fan. At this point I may as well claim I'm fan of DmC.

Dear Lord, I don't have to justify my love of the series simply because I can also criticize it for its less-than-stellar elements. And that's the thing; criticizing =/= complaining, it's entirely possible to be critical of something you like. In fact, it's a fairly mature thing to be capable of in regards to the things you like.

You do know that outside of action there is also whole concept, idea writing and design?

Of course I do, but people often cite how awesome the games are based on choreography and how the action looks when they play, something that U'den is more responsible for than Kamiya. You can see an extremely common thread of U'den's in every product they've been a part of - some of them things that Kamiya had no hand in. It's easy to tell where U'den's work begins in a project.

But why the hell are we even talking about this...? I wanted to give credit where it's due and somehow that's a slight against Kamiya? The guy has some good ideas, but he is most certainly not as incredible as people think he is.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

Even immortals need a backup plan. That's why they call it 'Plan B'.

I thought the bullet that killed the child was Plan B. Ooooooooooooooooooh snap~ Contraceptive joke!

 

[TWOxACROSS]

Umm...aside from the fact that munduss heir was barely important and was just another small scale demon.

Yop. A demon that was three time's Dante's size wearing his mother's skin like a pair of Oshkosh B'Gosh overalls, was a necessary bargaining chip for them to get Kat back, and was very important to Mundus that allowed them to get him incredibly angry, which was part of their initial plan to begin with. But yeah, no, totally unimportant small-scale demon. I mean, you could take him out of the game and nothing would change, he's like that fat guy in Mission 4!

That was sarcasm, beeteedubs. It's getting to a point that every time you open your mouth about DmC, you have a very warped and incorrect vision of how things actually were. You consistently paint yourself as someone who doesn't like DmC so much that you've actually seemingly become ignorant to what it is you hate.

I do know that he sure did his sweet time to take a second shot.

"His sweet time" being all of one goddamn second in that scene's passage of time. I think you're hyperbole switch is broken, because it keeps turning on when you don't mean it to. Unless you do mean it to, then you just need to learn how to use it better.

 

[Kam]

Oh Vergil, so honorable right? That's why he'll stab a partner in the back once he feels they aren't needed anymore and he'll test a new weapon out on the corpse of a fallen foe. Might as well p!ss on him Veegee.

And so what if he shot preggo Pete Burns? He had reason to because it was another step in bringing down Mundus and she was freaking carrying demonic baby Hitler in there! Just in the previous level that ugly son of a b!tch tried to kill Dante.

You wanna bring down the house? Pull the nails from the foundation and watch it fall.

And why the sympathy for that f@cking thing? You wouldn't take a shot to destroy something that will inevitably have humanity enslaved just because you feel sorry? Yea, watch that go over well when humanity's bending over and taking demonic rule like a b!tch and you can be that guy to explain to everyone how you could have stopped it. :meh:

Yes, vergil at the middle of the game is kind of a backstabbing dick, that's sort of the whole point of character growth. Douchebag on mission 11, sentencing himself to hell for his own crimes by mission 20, upstanding brainwashed dude who wouldn't sucker punch his greatest rival by DMC1. But more on the gun thing, since you seem to be completely missing the point I'm making.

I'll never understand this, other than it being yet another bit of "controversy" cooked up for no reason. It's like the epitome of sympathy for the devil (heh). The child one mission previous attempts to kill us, on the whim of the mother, who after their defeat says she doesn't care about the child, and that it's nothing more than a meal ticket to curry favor with Mundus. The game does a whole helluva lot to make both unsympathetic.

And remember, not "pregnant woman", it's a "pregnant demon". Y'know, those guys enslaving mankind and sucking their souls for sustenance? Pooooooor baby

Yeah, that is not at all what I'm getting at. I'm not saying vergil was horrible because he killed a demon baby and its mother, I'm saying vergil is a little **** because oldschool vergil would have stabbed her to her face, with his own sword. Telling her she gets to live, and then shooting her from 50 yards away with a high powered rifle? Hell, even arkham was backstabbed from the front.

Uh... didn't Dante shoot Nevan (who was also a demon) right in the womb?? And then kick around demon babies like soccer balls in DMC4?

I'm sorry, but I really have to use this argument now:

Double. Standard.

What, you mean this scene? The bit where nevan tries to kill him and he shoots her non-fatally so she backs down? And correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't there like a whole boss fight right before that bit?

So let's get this straight. Dante fights her one on one, beats her, listens to her talk, shoots her in the (not even remotely pregnant) stomach when she tries to kill him again, and then she offers herself as a demonic weapon so he can use her to literally rock-n-roll demons to death. And this is to be considered the same as when vergil shoots a handcuffed woman from behind, that somebody else defeated... why? I mean, you could very easily make the case of self defense in dante's instance (she was literally going for his neck) and even then he didn't kill her.

Dante elects not to kill a demon who tried to blindside him by feigning defeat.
Vergil kills someone in the most cowardly way possible.

Enlighten me, where is the double standard?

I was actually referring to nostalgia acting as rose-colored glasses to dismiss bad writing and poorly-developed characters. But if you're that curious, a thread about lore inconsistencies, plot-holes, and unexplained/incoherent elements already exists...I'm just not going to sweep the entire mountain of threads looking for it.

"Rose colored glasses" is the term you use to describe someone talking about something they experienced a very long time ago, where it's literally so long ago that they've forgotten all the things they hated and only remember vague good parts. I still play DMC3, and literally just played it a week back, so it's a bit early to tell me about how nostalgia has fogged my memory.

Most of the plot-holes that bug me actually don't have much to do with Vergil at all. My main ones include the official timeline, Dante and Vergil's ages/aging process, the fact that Dante's shop goes from Devil May Cry to Devil Never Cry and then back to Devil May Cry again in the anime and 4 without any real reason or explanation....and Nero. Just, Nero...his origins, his role as a "son" of Sparda, and the fact that he's confirmed to be Vergil's son...and since Nero is the same race of demon as the Sons of Sparda, that can only mean he's half-human and half-demon as well...which means Vergil impregnated a human at some obscenely-young point of his life, even though he was confirmed in DMC3 as the brother that hated and despised humans.

What you described are not plot holes; they're things the writers just didn't tell you.

If your definition of a plot hole is the one you want to go with, there are literally an unlimited number of things you could point to in either game, because what you describe as a plot hole is anything that was never written. Why is mundus bald? Ooh, plot hole. What is that thing in the back of lilith's head? Plot holed again! Why did the wiccans know recipes for aerosol sprays that could grant you access to limbo? The writers never told me, these must be plot holes!

But in reality, not being told doesn't make it a plot hole. The definition of a plot hole is when two or more established plot points come together to form some kind of paradox where no rational explanation could fix it. In these cases, you could easily make up over a dozen explanations for all of those things, and none of them would violate the continuity of the DMC universe, because they are not plot holes.

Other than that, most of my qualms against the DMC lore have to do with the quality of the story, dialogue, mythos, characters, and development.

I'll give you that one. The series was originally supposed to just be more resident evil, and it shows. But dialogue quality is not lore, come on buddy.

Let's not forget how Dante "playfully" shot Echidna into oblivion right after she was wailing over the decimated corpses of her plant-like offsprings. Then, Dante turns to what I assume are Echidna's smoldering ashes, and non-nonchalantly says:

"I think that look suits you better."

Wow. Makes me wonder why DmC's "SSadistic" style ranking wasn't in DMC4.

So prior to this fight, Echidna is floating around in the distance, completely blind to dante's existence, spraying seeds into the forest that make ordinary plants turn into murderous parasitic blenders. If he were actually the kind of scum new vergil is, he would have blindsided her at long range with his guns, killing her before she even knew he was there. Instead he ****es her off, lets her get the first real hit in on him, and then he fights her in a fair 1v1. Would it have been way easier to just shoot her at the beginning and not deal with fighting her and her plant seeds? Yes. But shooting your unaware enemy in the back is how a coward fights, and for all of his flaky screwing around even Dante is above that. Vergil? Even more so.

Hell, he even does the exact same thing for Berial, patiently waiting for berial to notice him so he can have a fair fight with him, instead of taking the easy way out and shooting him in the back while he was undetected.. Bael tries an underhanded trick to get a sneak attack on him and he punishes Bael by ****ing with him and then calling him smelly, not even so much as an F bomb for miles.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

TL;DR Arkham killed his whole family with his bare hands, yet when vergil kills him, it's face to face at close range. New vergil waits until his target is handcuffed, 50 yards away, with her back turned, and then shoots her with a long ranged rifle like a ****ing coward. She could have been a non-pregnant man, and I still would have been ****ed about this scene.

Also I can't help but notice that when challenged to elaborate on these supposed plot holes, only one of you even tried. Props to that one guy for manning up and taking a challenge head on. For the rest of you, I think I see why the vergil redesign speaks to you so positively.

 

[Demi-fiend]

Enlighten me, where is the double standard?

Didn't Lilith also try to kill Dante? Multiple times, as well? First with the club level (sending a boatload of monsters after him) and then try once again (by getting Mundus' Spawn to go after Dante) when the boss battle occurred?

Womb shooting is still womb shooting. No, shooting is still shooting, period. Doesn't matter if you're pregnant or not. It also doesn't matter how you do it. Whether it's face-to-face or behind your back.

You're still killing, and that's the end of it.

Dante didn't try to reason with his enemies to come up with a more peaceful solution. If he did, he would be in Deus Ex -- but he didn't, and he's not.

Besides, Nevan couldn't kill Dante even if she had bit him; she was already defeated.

Yeah, that is not at all what I'm getting at. I'm not saying vergil was horrible because he killed a demon baby and its mother, I'm saying vergil is a little **** because oldschool vergil would have stabbed her to her face, with his own sword. Telling her she gets to live, and then shooting her from 50 yards away with a high powered rifle? Hell, even arkham was backstabbed from the front.

Doesn't matter how you carry out betrayal. In any way shape or form, it still makes you a traitor.

For the rest of you, I think I see why the vergil redesign speaks to you so positively.

So that's your roundabout way of calling us "cowards" then. Gotcha.

--------------------------------------------------------------

@Chancey289 @WolfOD64 @TWOxACROSS

Don't answer this guy. We don't need another argument. I don't want to see this thread locked. Please.

I won't answer him either. Not even if he asks me to "enlighten" him again. *sigh* :/

 

[Innsmouth]

That was sarcasm, beeteedubs. It's getting to a point that every time you open your mouth about DmC, you have a very warped and incorrect vision of how things actually were. You consistently paint yourself as someone who doesn't like DmC so much that you've actually seemingly become ignorant to what it is you hate..

Actually I know exactly what I'm talking about. What plan? please elaborate on it. I don't remember he ever explained it. Control world?....umm he already does this.

"His sweet time" being all of one goddamn second in that scene's passage of time. I think you're hyperbole switch is broken, because it keeps turning on when you don't mean it to. Unless you do mean it to, then you just need to learn how to use it better.

Whole scene is 10 seconds long in REAL time. He shot her, looked at her, laughed, waited till she realizes what happened and screams and only THAN he killed her. So....do you forget things on purpose or what?

Of course I do, but people often cite how awesome the games are based on choreography and how the action looks when they play, something that U'den is more responsible for than Kamiya. You can see an extremely common thread of U'den's in every product they've been a part of - some of them things that Kamiya had no hand in. It's easy to tell where U'den's work begins in a project.

But why the hell are we even talking about this...? I wanted to give credit where it's due and somehow that's a slight against Kamiya? The guy has some good ideas, but he is most certainly not as incredible as people think he is.

Here we go again. Like I said. Double standards all the way. And than you turn your back and state how great NT and about how underrated they are, while they mostly praised for story, which in 2 out of 3 cases was written by external writers. But hey, yep they are best modern studio out there (yes, it was sarcasm)

 

[Demi-fiend]

Don't answer this guy, either.

If you do, then um... I'll have to uh...

... stop friends with you. For a week.

You've been warned. :devil:

 

[WolfOD64]

OMG you did not just ask me why Mundus needed his heir. YOU DID NOT JUST ASK ME THAT! LA LA LA LA LA!

I think Mundus should worry less about his non-existent heir, and more about his non-existent hair.:wink:

...sorry, don't judge me. It had to be said.

 

[WolfOD64]

Don't answer this guy. We don't need another argument. I don't want to see this thread locked. Please./

Wasn't planning on it. Most of the stuff he's bringing up can be discussed in completely separate threads. The thread topic has already been convoluted enough.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

Yes, vergil at the middle of the game is kind of a backstabbing dick, that's sort of the whole point of character growth. Douchebag on mission 11, sentencing himself to hell for his own crimes by mission 20

He didn't sentence himself to Hell...he decided he would stay because "Hey, it's where Dad lived", he literally says that. Even to the end Vergil was a selfish prick, and the only one he should any sort of care for in the end was Dante, cutting him because he doesn't want him to get stuck there too. That's the only admirable thing he does in the game, but it's not a sign of any grand growth where he's ashamed of his former actions.

Yeah, that is not at all what I'm getting at. I'm not saying vergil was horrible because he killed a demon baby and its mother, I'm saying vergil is a little **** because oldschool vergil would have stabbed her to her face, with his own sword. Telling her she gets to live, and then shooting her from 50 yards away with a high powered rifle? Hell, even arkham was backstabbed from the front.

Vergil didn't just shoot her like some coward because he needed everything to work out in his favor. He couldn't just slice Lilith in two like you want because it would completely f#ck over his plans. He was going to lose Dante, an integral part of his plan, if they didn't get Kat back. He had one chance to both follow through with his original plan of getting Mundus ****ed by taking out his heir, but still be in a position for Dante to get Kat.

What you described are not plot holes; they're things the writers just didn't tell you.

If your definition of a plot hole is the one you want to go with, there are literally an unlimited number of things you could point to in either game, because what you describe as a plot hole is anything that was never written. Why is mundus bald? Ooh, plot hole. What is that thing in the back of lilith's head? Plot holed again! Why did the wiccans know recipes for aerosol sprays that could grant you access to limbo? The writers never told me, these must be plot holes!

But in reality, not being told doesn't make it a plot hole. The definition of a plot hole is when two or more established plot points come together to form some kind of paradox where no rational explanation could fix it. In these cases, you could easily make up over a dozen explanations for all of those things, and none of them would violate the continuity of the DMC universe, because they are not plot holes.

They are total inconsistencies because they contradict what is previously told to us, and they do nothing to explain them, which is what makes them plot holes. They don't explain away the contradictions, so they remain plot holes. Plot holes require explanation to be filled! There are certain things that don't need to be said because they're just obvious, like "how did they get there?" and sh!t, but there not being an explanation for how Nero is somehow a Son of Sparda as Vergil's progeny makes very little sense from a timeline and personality perspective. The office sign changing back from Devil Never Cry makes very little sense because the phrase was impactful enough at the end of DMC1 for Dante to want to change it in the first place. They offer no explanations on the contrary, and everything that it contradicts is too reasonable to be modified, because what explanations could be theorized also contradict what we know.

TL;DR Arkham killed his whole family with his bare hands, yet when vergil kills him, it's face to face at close range. New vergil waits until his target is handcuffed, 50 yards away, with her back turned, and then shoots her with a long ranged rifle like a ****ing coward. She could have been a non-pregnant man, and I still would have been ****ed about this scene.

Again, it's not that Vergil waits until those specific conditions, it's that it's his last opportunity to both appease Dante and still take out Mundus' heir. You don't like how he had to go about it, that's fine, but you can't ignore the legitimate reasoning for him doing so, because it's directly in line with his whole not giving a sh!t about humans like Kat, and selfishly following through on his goals.

There's also the fact that Vergil, as part of his plan, is not supposed to do anything that would make him stand out. Running around and slicing people up with supernatural strength and speed, with the one thing that can close the Hellgate, is literally the worst thing he could do. He was already enough of a target as it was when Kat revealed his name to Mundus.

All in all, you want him to have done something differently, which would completely go against his established character.

Also I can't help but notice that when challenged to elaborate on these supposed plot holes, only one of you even tried. Props to that one guy for manning up and taking a challenge head on. For the rest of you, I think I see why the vergil redesign speaks to you so positively.

Don't be an asshole. One person replied first, and everyone who supported the post was pretty much saying "yeahp this", or y'know, people have other sh!t to do sometimes. So yeah, take this as my agreeement with Wolf's explanations.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

Actually I know exactly what I'm talking about. What plan? please elaborate on it. I don't remember he ever explained it. Control world?....umm he already does this.

The cutscene after Mission 3, they stated their plan to Dante - systematically take out Mundus' support structures, Virility and Raptor News, to get him so ****ed that he leaves himself and the Hellgate unprotected, so Vergil can close it. After Kat is captured, Vergil still wants to continue with their plan original plan, and when Dante mentions Mundus' heir, Vergil is excited that they could use Lilith and the heir to **** Mundus off even more and continue their plans in earnest. Dante refuses, wanting to save Kat, so Vergil has to relent for as long as possible - which turns out to be during the Trade, when they've got the chance to save Kat, and Vergil takes his one last opportunity to kill Lilith and the heir and continue on with the plan.

So yeah, you didn't remember when he explained it.

Whole scene is 10 seconds long in REAL time. He shot her, looked at her, laughed, waited till she realizes what happened and screams and only THAN he killed her. So....do you forget things on purpose or what?

First off, he never laughs, he smirks slightly because "All according to keikaku". Secondly, it's ten seconds long for us as the audience, but that's because it's showing several different reactions within a single instant, which is done all the damn time in video. Look strictly at Lilith's reaction, it lasts four seconds at most.

But holy sh!t who the f#ck cares? You ALWAYS do this Innsmouth, you take everything off on a f#cking stupid-ass tangent like it means anything. You are literally the definition of a strawman, and sometimes I wonder if the reason why your typing is so bad is because you literally have hay for fingers.

Here we go again. Like I said. Double standards all the way. And than you turn your back and state how great NT and about how underrated they are, while they mostly praised for story, which in 2 out of 3 cases was written by external writers. But hey, yep they are best modern studio out there (yes, it was sarcasm)

Where is the double standard...? I didn't say "NT was great!" I never said they were underrated. Where the hell did I say these things? You're putting words in my mouth.

I praised the games themselves, the product, which is praising the work of Ninja Theory and everyone they worked with to create that product.

Also, Ninja Theory is praised in the industry for story presentation, their focus on presenting a game's narrative with the kind of ambition and scope that you see from film.

If someone praises Ninja Theory for Enslaved's story, then yeah, they should be praising Alex Garland for taking NT's original rough draft concept and turning it into what it became. But no where did I say or do what you claim I did :/

 

[Innsmouth]

The cutscene after Mission 3, they stated their plan to Dante - systematically take out Mundus' support structures, Virility and Raptor News, to get him so ****ed that he leaves himself and the Hellgate unprotected, so Vergil can close it. After Kat is captured, Vergil still wants to continue with their plan original plan, and when Dante mentions Mundus' heir, Vergil is excited that they could use Lilith and the heir to **** Mundus off even more and continue their plans in earnest. Dante refuses, wanting to save Kat, so Vergil has to relent for as long as possible - which turns out to be during the Trade, when they've got the chance to save Kat, and Vergil takes his one last opportunity to kill Lilith and the heir and continue on with the plan.

That wasn't question. Question is ...what was mundus' plan? what part of it his heir? He's immortal ruler of all world. Why is heir is even important to him.

First off, he never laughs, he smirks slightly because "All according to keikaku". Secondly, it's ten seconds long for us as the audience, but that's because it's showing several different reactions within a single instant, which is done all the damn time in video. Look strictly at Lilith's reaction, it lasts four seconds at most.

So now it's already four seconds instead of one?....Welp time of Vergil's enjoyment grows and grows with each next post. And it was still 10 seconds. Not because of video, but because of audio. Audio runs non-stomp, like Dante's asks "da fuq" with Lilith starting to scream after that. The only part that could be parallel is small fragment where Mundus was shown

 

[TWOxACROSS]

That wasn't question. Question is ...what was mundus' plan? what part of it his heir? He's immortal ruler of all world. Why is heir is even important to him.

I don't know, why the hell does anyone have kids? There's any number of reasons; vanity, legacy, someone to someday take his place so he can go jerk it profusely on a beach in Tahiti and not have to worry about how the empire is running. The kid is still important to him, he obviously cared about it, why does a child even have to be part of some new, unheard of plan? Why is there even a need for a plan? Where did you come up with this idea that the child is part of some plan of Mundus'? Why can't he just have a child because he wants one?

So now it's already four seconds instead of one?....Welp time of Vergil's enjoyment grows and grows with each next post. And it was still 10 seconds. Not because of video, but because of audio. Audio runs non-stomp, like Dante's asks "da fuq" with Lilith starting to scream after that. The only part that could be parallel is small fragment where Mundus was shown

Oh for the love of God who gives a sh!t?! One second, four seconds, ten seconds. What does this have to do with your original point? I don't even f#cking remember, but I'm almost positive it was some strawman bullsh!t anyway.