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Does Vergil really have any "Honor"?

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berto

I Saw the Devil
Moderator
Yes, he is, in a very old fashion way. To the modern everyday person it's too foreign a concept and they try to apply their own morality and modern thinking to it. Japan still has deeper attachments to their old system of honor, the Samurai, and it's not always clear and... PC to the modern western millennial, who's closest equivalent is the cowboy and they really have no deep attachment to a system of honor. There is an honesty and importance on the values of said honesty but not like the Japanese. The way of the west and the way of the Samurai are extremely different and as much as people want to say 'that doesn't sound very honorable to me' the fact is that if you're a millennial how would you know?

Vergil is honorable but selfish. He is bound by the laws of his honor but that only gets so far. Just like a lord would lose nothing by decapitating a commoner for the slightest insult Vergil doesn't see any dishonor in being brutal at times, that is often the way of the sword. There is no denying it in combat but outside of it Vergil's sense of honor rubs people the wrong way because of his actions. Honor doesn't equal chivalry.
 

Dante's Stalker

"Outrun this!"
Premium
Supporter 2014
I could have swore that DMC3 and DmC Vergil both had dopplergangers.
They do. DmC Vergil fights his doppelganger in the DLC. My memory is a bit foggy on this but I think Dante fights Vergil's doppelganger in the end fight as well. I think. I haven't touched the game in years.

As for Vergil having honour?
If his honour equates to his ego, then yes, he has masses of honour. For sure. No doubt. He is very honourable.
He's also an asshat of epic proportion, impulsive, and temperamental like a little kid. (I mean this is what he has in common with Dante, too). It's what he wants when he wants wherever he wants, no questions asked.
Which is why his blood ritual in DMC3 didn't work - it means he didn't put enough research into it. I wouldn't be surprised if he woke up that morning and thought 'hey, I'm going to open the portal to the demon world today'.
It's also why he chose to stay in the demon world when he lost to Dante in the end. It's a split decision with no thought to it. He probably thought 'oh darn, I can't go back to the human world, Dante will never let me live this down, I need to go the other way to get away from him'. Then spouted off a bunch of rubbish about their father's home and literally threw himself off a cliff.
Then on a spur of the moment thing right at the end, he figures since he's stuck there, he's going to fight Mundus. No prep. No time to recover his health. Just BAM, I'ma do this thang.
Oh, and then he also blows up Mundus's spawn before Kat is even in a safe range.
And would rather yell at Dante to stand guard while he gets Kat to save/kill all his data. He was probably hiding all his p*** on there, too. Can't let the enemy find out that he had a special folder for the internet's R34!

The logic of fans who reason "oh, he just wanted to awaken Dante's DT" is flawed, too.
Vergil wanted to open the portal to the demon world. He only needed Dante's amulet, not Dante, and not Dante's opposition. So in the fight where he awakens Dante's DT? Yeah, well, just before he actually did DT, Vergil was trying to have another go at him. And in case anyone forgot, right after Dante devil triggered for the first time, he passed out. I can't see him surviving if this fight had continued.
'Awaken his DT' my butt. That was collateral damage, just a perk along the way to his demise.

I'm digressing, sorry.
Yes, Vergil is honourable.
 

Veloran

Well-known Member
I don't remember DMC Vergil having a doppelganger.

Vergil wanted to open the portal to the demon world. He only needed Dante's amulet, not Dante, and not Dante's opposition.
Then why did he give back Dante's amulet in the manga when he easily could have killed him?

On topic, yes Vergil has honor. Dante himself can recognize that much.
 

WolfOD64

That Guy Who Hates Fox McCloud
Well, here we are again, back to this ever-reoccurring question. Well, I suppose I should offer my usual two cents, although I don’t expect everyone to agree with me…however, I hope that THIS time, I can reel in my argumentative impulses and civilities

But in response to the topic….no. Vergil isn’t honorable, as hordes of people mistakenly consider him to be, and I’m certain it was never the developers nor the original storywriters intention to present him as such.

He’s traditionalist, but not honorable. Allow me to explain:

Vergil is a character who does the things he does because he believes himself superior. It’s an aristocratic way of thinking, a mental framework that he can use to justify every action he does, no matter how questionable or vile. He believes that simply because he’s Sparda’s son, the heir to the Legendary Dark Knight, his power and bloodline literally entitles him to ownership of power…not because he’s earned it, but because in his mind, he deserves it by default. As such, he fights and acts with the brutality expected of that mentality: he walks and acts with a regal sense of superiority over lesser demons and the entirety of the human race. He fights with traditional Devil Arms and outright avoids the machinations of inferior beings, like guns. He talks down and dismisses everyone, because they are all lesser in his eyes; and all of this stems from destructive, irrational, and ultimately self-damaging urge to cling to tradition at any cost. The tradition is that demons of his kind are superior to all other things, and he fights and acts with that notion exclusively in mind…so much so, it’s his best character flaw. Ultimately, when he’s defeated at Dante’s hands, he seizes his heirloom—his right by tradition—and remains in the Underworld where he, by nature and not by his own desire, belongs by right of bloodline.

That’s who Vergil is. It has nothing to do with being “honorable”, because honorable, in addition to preserving tradition, also means to show some level of selflessness or acknowledgement of an enemy’s equal status…something that Vergil is incapable of, because he thinks he’s superior to EVERYONE.

This is the crux to his entire charcter, and people misinterpret as “honor” for some of the dumbest reasons imaginable (I speak mainly of my experiences on Devil’s Lair, not regarding any of YOU fine fellows, before anyone gets defensive).

And I think one of the main reasons people develop this misconception about Vergil is his use of a katana. It’s always been this weird fascination I’ve noticed where the trail of assumptions is that: “Oh! Vergil fights skillfully and honorably with a katana. He’s just oozing with far Eastern values and combat prowess…he probably follows bushido, too! Oh, so honorable, so SAMURAI…he MUST be honorable!”

As someone who studies Japanese history, the feudal era, and samurai culture quite religiously, I can only face-palm myself until the front of my skull literally implodes. This is one of the most widespread misconceptions about not just Vergil, but the samurai, demonstrating how limited people’s knowledge actually is about these topics.

Bushido, first and foremost, is not about fighting. It is not conduct in a sparring match, nor the tactics they carry out. It’s the principles behind the fight itself, the decisions before and after each one ensues, the decisions made by leaders and damiyo....that’s what bushido is.

If bushido literally boiled down to “fighting honorably”, then literally every famous samurai in history, from common ronin to the Unifiers of Japan would be all violators by definition, because even the greatest damiyo of the Sengoku Era fought in methods and practices contrary to bushido.

The reason famed warriors like Yukimura Sanada, Hattori Hanzo and Shimazu Toyohisa are literally remembered by name are NOT because of their accomplishments through combat, but their decisions they made outside of battle, the principles they held as warriors first. They’re considered the embodiments of the warrior’s way, literally because of why they died, not how, and it’s because their actions were a rarity that they’re remembered so well.

Bushido, much like Western chivalry, was a novelty that very few actually practiced.

“A samurai cannot stand the shame of defeat”, and yet both warriors and their damiyos accepted defeat quite often, and fled with even more frequency. Hara-kiri (or seppuku) was almost NEVER in use, and literally considered something only practiced by the utmost hardcore warriors, or someone who had nothing else to lose (Christian samurai probably committed it the most in recorded history, because their faith is what propelled this “nothing-to-lose” mentality”). And treating your enemy with respect? Pfft. Tell that to the thousands of Christian rebels, whose heads and the heads of their women and children, were put on public display without being buried to set an example, without washing or tending (the equivalent of not receiving a proper burial in Japan). Even my favorite historical figure in Japan, the legendary Oda Nobunaga (Google this guy sometime, he’s simply fascinating) left such a controversial legacy, because his methods and tactics were so barbaric, so cruel in nature, so disregarding of the lives of innocents even to where he was willing to sacrifice members of his own family (sounding familiar yet?), that he was never considered an active follower of bushido. Why? Well, simply…because being honorable and heeding to rigid Japanese traditions “didn’t win wars”…which is exactly how Vergil functions.

And rigidly upholding tradition through bushido is precisely why Japanese people don’t regard Samurai as romantically was we do here in the West. The Japanese have been opposed to the rigid traditions of bushido for centuries, and is partially why they view samurai as corrupt and vile, and why they see Western films like The Last Samurai as “glorifying” greedy warlords who harshly imposed these traditions…a trait that has been upheld in countless Japanese cultural representations, from Taiga dramas to Jidaigeki films.

If you want an example of how the brutality of Japanese tradition can cripple and destroy the lives of innocent people, watch Hara-kiri (then prepare to perform some on yourself when you watch it and realize just how terminally depressing it is).

And the decisions Vergil makes and the motives behind them are not characteristic of what is seen as honorable in Japan. Not in the ****ing slightest. His reasons to fight and his justification for doing the things he does has NOTHING to do with honor—it’s all about superiority.

But I implore you all to bear with me as I say this, because it isn’t a knock against Vergil at all, because this superiority complex is what defines him as a character. That’s why I liked him in the first place, and why in my eyes he was one of the few, fleeting number of redeeming factors from DMC3—he was a good villain whose appeal endured the completely ****ty implantation of his character through the backwards-ass script.

And if you think the point of his character, the point of him being the villain, is to be honorable or justifiable in any sense, you don’t understand the character the way he was intended through the confines of the narrative. It’s literally that simple.

And even if you could argue his “honorable” status without the whole bushido thing, that’s still a stance no one in their right mind with any understanding of Vergil should take, because there’s so much to his character that contradicts that notion.

Vergil simply doesn’t function with any selfless or proper conduct towards his enemies in DMC3. He slaughters entire an entire city of people without hesitation or conscience before they can even get out of their homes…faceless millions he deems as insignificant lesser.

This is also the same guy who literally plunged Dante in the chest with his own sword, literally while he was choking on his own blood and wriggling on the ground (as others prior to my arrival have pointed out)…before a few hours into the game, also killing Beowulf, and—in traditional, worthy conduct towards the body of a deceased enemy—all but river-dances on his corpse to prove his superiority with his newly obtained weapons.

Why does he do these things? Because he believes he’s superior, and doesn’t have to answer for a thing. That’s who Vergil is.

And don’t even get me started on the worst line of defense people turn to when trying to speak in defense of Vergil’s honor, and that’s the DMC3 manga.

I have never seen a group of people hoist something as absolute gospel like people do this manga, amusingly enough despite it:

A) Not being finished

B) Being made literally months after the game, by a manga artist who had no prior involvement with the game or script and with no aid or supervision by a single one of the scenario writers who actually PENNED the original story, essentially rendering everything in that manga from its poor dialogue to its gaping plot holes as living, breathing contradiction to everything the game established.​

First things first: Vergil’s supposed “avenging of his mother.” I still, even as I live and breathe, can’t even believe people consider this as a proper insert of motivation to his actions in the game. If you actually approve of this “theory” with a straight face, and think that Vergil’s motivated not by power, ambition, proving of self-worth or flat-out greed, and is instead carrying out his entire scheme in DMC3 to avenge Eva of all people…you and I officially didn’t play the same game.

Every single frame of Vergil’s actions literally dismantles this. Not only does this shatter the superiority complex, the thing that makes him rabid about replicating Sparda at all, the root of his urge for world-domination, the FOUNDATION OF HIS CHARACTER…but it just deflowers his prejudice against humans. He literally views his human blood as the ONE WEAKNESS HE HAS, the impurity he wants to remedy by becoming the next Legendary Dark Knight, and unsurpassed Demonic GOD. He slaughters an entire city of humans and intends to rid the world of the human race LITERALLY because they’re lesser to him, and a plague on his existence and bloodline…so WHY, in the name of everything, would he give two flying elephant turds about his HUMAN MOTHER??? Isn’t that like someone trying

How barebones and ****-poor does the writing have to be, how desperate for a redeeming quality in Vergil’s one-note villain prowess do blind fans have to be, to come up with a chunk of head-canon that literally dismantles the basis of HIS ENTIRE CHARACTER?

And then there’s him giving the amulet to Dante, and I don’t even know how people can even use this to defend Vergil when it literally spits on everything he was established to have planned in the confines of the game’s plot. Consider:

We watch Vergil spend the entire game trying to get these amulets back….literally spending two of the three in-game confrontations he has with Dante trying to pry it from his cold, dead hands….so that he could use their combined power to not only unlock the hellgate (which was never something they were written to do in DMC1, adding yet another to one of DMC3’s lovable retcons to the original mythos) and to cast of Force Edge’s form to obtain the Sword of Sparda and become the most powerful demon in existence….a goal he’s willing to sacrifice the lives of thousands, including his own, to inherit Sparda’s role…a goal which he is passionate, driven, and unhealthily-obsessed with, by the game’s own admission….​

…and you’re telling me that he’s just willing to drop it next to Dante, letting him keep it, out of some misplaced sense of “honor.”

This is like Lord Voldemort ending The Deathly Hallows with allowing Harry, the figure of his obsession whom he’s spent almost twenty years fixated on to extinguish….just to go on his merry way, and live life peacefully.

Are. You. Kidding Me.

I get that the mangaka was trying to explain how Dante got the amulet in the first place prior to the game (even though DMC1 already established how the Twins got their amulets already, so his attempt was essentially rendered utterly pointless), but all it does is screw the game’s plot straight in the ear, and in traditional Devil May Cry narrative fashion, complete collapse in on everything established about the character.

These aren’t answers or justifications for the things Vergil does…they’re blatant, confusing, and flat-out offensive contradictions to Vergil’s character. DMC3 literally went out of its way to rip apart everything Dante had been established as being in the very first game, but the MANGA seemed dead-set on shattering everything established about Vergil in DMC3.I don’t know who’s worse, Bingo Morihashi, or the backwards moron who penned this crapocalypse.

So, no. Vergil isn’t honorable, and all the contradictions raised in that manga that is just as questionable and unreliable as a well-written resource for ANYTHING character-related as that god-awful anime, do nothing to further it. He’s a tenacious and self-serving villain, and that’s exactly how he was intended through the writing.

Implying anything else, as much as I hate to say it, is simply grasping for aspects to his character that, simply were never there.
 

WolfOD64

That Guy Who Hates Fox McCloud
You learn something new every day, eh.
The samurai were like the Japanese version of Vikings, I take it.
Or like modern-day psychopaths.

1. Kudos to you if you actually seared your retinas reading that gargantuan tangent I typed up there. That basically makes you my new best friend.

2. Comparing Vikings & psyychopaths to Samurai, that miiiight be a bit of a stretch. They were a lot closer to the knights of Medieval Europe, essentially as barbaric or as orderly as...well, as their lords allowed them to be, and how strict traditions were imposed on them. Over time, especially during the Tokugawa reign that created something like two hundred blissful years of uninterrupted peace, Samurai were more corrupt and vile aristocrats, which in 99% of dramas, is exactly how the Japanese people depict them.

That's also why figures like Miyamoto Musashi are regarded so positively in modern Japanese culture; he's an example of a low-born, unschooled wandering ronin who gave the middle finger to the Samurai and their traditionalist establishment.

He was more honorable than half the samurai that existed, and practically a nobody to boot.

@WolfOD64 I don't think I've ever come across someone who explained Vergil's character so well.
I can't tell you how much I appreciate that statement, and welcome your agreement.

It really grinds my gears to see hordes of superfans take a character I like just as much as they do, and insert him with character traits he was never intended to have, to make him some "misunderstod character that's secretly good on the inside--"

No. No. Just Stop, please.

Stop dismantling everything that makes him in an interesting character, before I hit you on the nose with a rolled-up newspaper.
 
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WolfOD64

That Guy Who Hates Fox McCloud
@WolfOD64: I've got to say, that was a very well written and thought up post.
What the---?! Two people read that entire thing?! That was the longest thing I've typed on this forum since that DMC3 verbal blast I wrote years ago.

I guess all of this all just bottled-up, opinionated gunpowder from being stuck in the one-mind echo chamber that was the Devil's Lair forum for so long. I couldn't say any of this stuff over there without being drawn-and-quartered, so it's been building up for years.

...or, it could just be the result of me always typing up argumentative papers for college. Now, even forum posts on the Internet have to be eight-page opinion pieces.

Glad to see someone likes them.

Took me about three cups of coffee and a small nap to get through it, but it was worth it :thumbsup:
I hope this means I get an "A." :tongue:

In all seriousness, though, I've been thinking about making review threads on each Devil May Cry game with in the same format of analysis and depth, but I don't know how many people could read that. I still have a lot to say on the other games, but a lot of it's.....controversial.
 

Judge

Well-known Member
1. Kudos to you if you actually seared your retinas reading that gargantuan tangent I typed up there. That basically makes you my new best friend.

2. Comparing Vikings & psyychopaths to Samurai, that miiiight be a bit of a stretch. They were a lot closer to the knights of Medieval Europe, essentially as barbaric or as orderly as...well, as their lords allowed them to be, and how strict traditions were imposed on them. Over time, especially during the Tokugawa reign that created something like two hundred blissful years of uninterrupted peace, Samurai were more corrupt and vile aristocrats, which in 99% of dramas, is exactly how the Japanese people depict them.

That's also why figures like Miyamoto Musashi are regarded so positively in modern Japanese culture; he's an example of a low-born, unschooled wandering ronin who gave the middle finger to the Samurai and their traditionalist establishment.

He was more honorable than half the samurai that existed, and practically a nobody to boot.


I can't tell you how much I appreciate that statement, and welcome your agreement.

It really grinds my gears to see hordes of superfans take a character I like just as much as they do, and insert him with character traits he was never intended to have, to make him some "misunderstod character that's secretly good on the inside--"

No. No. Just Stop, please.

Stop dismantling everything that makes him in an interesting character, before I hit you on the nose with a rolled-up newspaper.

Actually I read the long post too. I actually didn't read the manga myself, so it was good to get a synopsis of what Vergil's actions were before DMC3.

Agreed with what you said as well, but I don't think Capcom ever really put that much thought into Vergil. They just made him the stoic, evil twin brother of the hero. Don't think they had an intention of doing more with him after they killed him off in DMC3. Hence why he didn't feature in DMC4. But he became a popular character and thats where a lot of the ad-hoc character traits came from. Not from the games, but from the fans who wanted the character to continue and tried to create a deeper backstory and motivation for the character.
 

Foxtrot94

Elite Hunter
Premium
I don't think Capcom ever really put that much thought into Vergil.

But he became a popular character and thats where a lot of the ad-hoc character traits came from. Not from the games, but from the fans who wanted the character to continue and tried to create a deeper backstory and motivation for the character.

God knows lots of fans do speculate a lot about Vergil, especially when it comes to the "revenge for mom" thing. However, everything Wolf said about his character traits, it's in the game (to read with the EA Sports guy voice).
For every trait Wolf listed - his superiority complex, his driving obsession to become just like his father, his conviction that such power rightfully belongs to him, and his struggle to acknowledge his human half, which he considers the weaker one - there is at least one scene that shows it. Those scenes didn't get written, choreographed and acted out by themselves now did they.

Also, just a side note, Vergil wasn't killed off in 3, if anything he was killed off in 1. However I do feel Capcom is always gonna bring him back in some way, and make him playable, looks like he's their ace whenever they wanna bring out a special edition of some sort or DLC. They did it with DMC3, they did it with MVC3, they did it with DmC, they did it with DMC4. If he's not in DMC5 from the get go, I bet he will be later, most likely as DLC. We'll see about MVCI.

What the---?! Two people read that entire thing?!

Make it four.
 
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Lain

Earthbound Immortal
Premium
What the---?! Two people read that entire thing?!
Make that five. :D
As a fellow lover of history, I'd be fascinated to discuss this in more detail, but let's save that for a different thread.

But as for "honour", I'd say Dante suffers from a lack of it in 3 as well, but whereas Dante does grow (minimal as it is), Vergil remains static and it becomes his downfall.
 

V's patron

be loyal to what matters
@WolfOD64
I'm #6, which is always the coolest Power Ranger FYI :cool:.

I wouldn't mind reading your analysis threads. It's not we have a whole lot to talk about without a new game or such.

@Solar the rabbit
I haven't played DMC3 in years so I'll take your word for it.

But i could see Vergil using a Doppelganger in a fight more than quicksilver because its easier to defend against. So to him that could still be fighting fair.:whistle:
 

Viper

Well-known Member
Premium
Then take the word of someone who does, DMC3 Vergil has no doppleganger. In fact, he's never had one in the originals, not before nor after the third game. And I'm not just talking about gameplay, canon wise too.
I bet the confusion came from the fact that Vergil IS doppelganger, at least gameplay-wise in the battle against Arkham, where one can take the second controller and play him, much like one can play Doppelganger when the style is activated.
Either that or that one attack where he can split himself into lightning fast projections.

Or one can really nitpick and say he is Dante's doppelganger... in DMC1 in particular, where he first appeared as "Dante" inside the mirror.
 

DanteSparda08

The mind is stronger than any muscle in your body.
I don't think of it as Honour but rather the term "Honour" is a mask to cover his "Pride". To be honest Vergil isn't as "Evil" as we believe him to be, but rather he doesn't see himself as a "Hero" befitting the image of being something"Good". I think Vergil wants to be his own Person rather than be defined by a Cliche Term, and though his characteristics and traits may be of that of someone Making/Causing Acts of Evil!? To me, Vergil just doesn't care about other people's opinion of him...I fully respect his reasons and behaviour because he's not doing it just for himself, but for Dante too. A big brother will allow himself to be hated by others even his own brother, and still protect him in the shadows...It's like Uchiha Itachi and Uchiha Sasuke...that kind of relationship. The Elder brother does acts of cruelty all for the sake to take the heat and blame of his younger sibling to protect them. There's something so wonderful about Vergil and that he's True to himself, and the only person he was to prove is himself and no-one else. Vergil blames himself for being Weak when he could have protected his family, which is why he became Cold and Hollow so Dante can have everything and not feel broken...he curses his own weakness which is why he's willing to dabble in Dark Arts to grow stronger for himself, and if his brother get's in his way he'll incapacitate/render him immobile but not Kill him. He did stab Dante in his chest with his sword knowing full well he'd activate his Devil Trigger and Heal from the wounds...You see...I noticed something quite interesting about our Dark Knight and that he's an Actor who hides how he feels...Vergil hates him Human side because he see's that as a weakness, and that Humans die, but Demons can Heal and live forever, and are capable of greater feats, which is why he discards his Humanity because they can't do what Demons can. Vergil wants Power so that he can never feel helpless or weak ever again...simple.
 

Veloran

Well-known Member
Vergil is a character who does the things he does because he believes himself superior.
It seems as though your argument starts off on a bad foot by making the wrong assumption about Vergil's motives. His actions to obtain more power are not undertaken merely with the power itself as his end goal, but rather because his past molded his perspective into thinking that power is the means through which all other things are undertaken and accomplished. IE, without the power to protect what you want, everything is meaningless, because it can simply be destroyed by someone with more power than you.

He believes that simply because he’s Sparda’s son, the heir to the Legendary Dark Knight, his power and bloodline literally entitles him to ownership of power…not because he’s earned it, but because in his mind, he deserves it by default.
He is not wrong. Being Sparda's son does indeed entitle him to Sparda's legacy. His mistake was in not recognizing that because Sparda left two amulets to both his sons, each of them was equally entitled to it.

and all of this stems from destructive, irrational, and ultimately self-damaging urge to cling to tradition at any cost. The tradition is that demons of his kind are superior to all other things, and he fights and acts with that notion exclusively in mind…
But that notion is false. Vergil most certainly hates demonkind, even high tier demons. It's not just his demonic blood that Vergil holds in high regard, but rather the blood of his father. It's Sparda that Vergil respects, because Sparda had the power to protect what he valued beyond all opposition.

and remains in the Underworld where he, by nature and not by his own desire, belongs by right of bloodline.
Vergil remains there because of his reverence for it being his father's home. It was a choice he made, not because it was his nature as a demon to reside there, but because by being there he felt a connection to Sparda.

That’s who Vergil is. It has nothing to do with being “honorable”, because honorable, in addition to preserving tradition, also means to show some level of selflessness or acknowledgement of an enemy’s equal status…something that Vergil is incapable of, because he thinks he’s superior to EVERYONE.
Honor means many different things to many different peoples and cultures. It's incorrect to say that Vergil wasn't honorable just because he looked down on others.

And I think one of the main reasons people develop this misconception about Vergil is his use of a katana. It’s always been this weird fascination I’ve noticed where the trail of assumptions is that: “Oh! Vergil fights skillfully and honorably with a katana. He’s just oozing with far Eastern values and combat prowess…he probably follows bushido, too! Oh, so honorable, so SAMURAI…he MUST be honorable!”
That's quite an extreme strawman, don't you think?

And the decisions Vergil makes and the motives behind them are not characteristic of what is seen as honorable in Japan. Not in the ****ing slightest. His reasons to fight and his justification for doing the things he does has NOTHING to do with honor—it’s all about superiority.
But again, this core idea of what you believe is the most central tenant of Vergil's character is incorrect. For Vergil, superiority is not it's own reward, it is the means.

But I implore you all to bear with me as I say this, because it isn’t a knock against Vergil at all, because this superiority complex is what defines him as a character.
But you have it exactly backwards. Vergil doesn't have a superiority complex, he has an inferiority complex. He felt first hand what it was like to be left completely helpless and have everything that was important to you destroyed, and all of his actions and misdeeds stem from a desperate need to ensure that he is never put into that position ever again. His lust for power, obsession with his father, embrace of his demonic nature, all of it was born from that desire.

And if you think the point of his character, the point of him being the villain, is to be honorable or justifiable in any sense, you don’t understand the character the way he was intended through the confines of the narrative. It’s literally that simple.
Yet Vergil wasn't the villain of DMC3, he was an antagonist and rival to Dante. The actual villain was Arkham, who in fact appears to embody the argument for villainy you're applying to Vergil.

Why does he do these things? Because he believes he’s superior, and doesn’t have to answer for a thing. That’s who Vergil is.
You're not following the logic through. You stop at saying "he believes himself superior, so he's the villain", and don't bother to ask "why does he need to believe himself superior"?

I have never seen a group of people hoist something as absolute gospel like people do this manga, amusingly enough despite it:
All I'm hearing here is that you don't think the manga is applicable canon. And that's simply objectively wrong. The tone you're taking here implies that you see no issue with dismissing the manga out of hand.

First things first: Vergil’s supposed “avenging of his mother.” I still, even as I live and breathe, can’t even believe people consider this as a proper insert of motivation to his actions in the game. If you actually approve of this “theory” with a straight face, and think that Vergil’s motivated not by power, ambition, proving of self-worth or flat-out greed, and is instead carrying out his entire scheme in DMC3 to avenge Eva of all people…you and I officially didn’t play the same game.

Every single frame of Vergil’s actions literally dismantles this. Not only does this shatter the superiority complex, the thing that makes him rabid about replicating Sparda at all, the root of his urge for world-domination, the FOUNDATION OF HIS CHARACTER…but it just deflowers his prejudice against humans. He literally views his human blood as the ONE WEAKNESS HE HAS, the impurity he wants to remedy by becoming the next Legendary Dark Knight, and unsurpassed Demonic GOD. He slaughters an entire city of humans and intends to rid the world of the human race LITERALLY because they’re lesser to him, and a plague on his existence and bloodline…so WHY, in the name of everything, would he give two flying elephant turds about his HUMAN MOTHER??? Isn’t that like someone trying

How barebones and ****-poor does the writing have to be, how desperate for a redeeming quality in Vergil’s one-note villain prowess do blind fans have to be, to come up with a chunk of head-canon that literally dismantles the basis of HIS ENTIRE CHARACTER?
It's not really surprising that you'd dismiss the relationship between Vergil and his mother, considering that you got the entire foundation of his character wrong.

Vergil never wanted to "rule the world", at least not in the sense you're implying, and he never wanted to exterminate the human race. Vergil's opinion of humans is simply that they are weak, which is true, and Vergil has seen firsthand how they are incapable of protecting themselves or what they love. The level of sophistry you're projecting in saying that Vergil's desire was to become the next Legendary Dark Knight, and then saying that he wished to destroy humankind in the very next sentence is simply staggering. Vergil, as a character, is simply not so stupid as to forget that his father stood up to the entirety of demonkind for the sake of the human race, and then go on to marry and have children with a human.

At the most basic level here, you're completely ignoring the fact that Vergil himself copulated with a human woman, impregnating her with a child. If as you say Vergil hated humans and wished to destroy them, this would not have happened, and so you must be wrong.

I get that the mangaka was trying to explain how Dante got the amulet in the first place prior to the game
It doesn't really try to explain that at all, no...

So, no. Vergil isn’t honorable, and all the contradictions raised in that manga that is just as questionable and unreliable as a well-written resource for ANYTHING character-related as that god-awful anime, do nothing to further it. He’s a tenacious and self-serving villain, and that’s exactly how he was intended through the writing.

Implying anything else, as much as I hate to say it, is simply grasping for aspects to his character that, simply were never there.
Please understand that in saying this, you are simply insisting that your personal opinion is superior to everything in the canon you don't like, and thus those things must be thrown out, ignored, and looked down upon.

To be perfectly frank, it appears as though you're projecting your own superiority complex onto Vergil.
 

WolfOD64

That Guy Who Hates Fox McCloud
Man, more people actually read that bulk of text than I was expecting. I really need to get back to posting on threads like this. Also, @Veloran, I shall address your points in the post following this one.

Agreed with what you said as well, but I don't think Capcom ever really put that much thought into Vergil. They just made him the stoic, evil twin brother of the hero. Don't think they had an intention of doing more with him after they killed him off in DMC3.

You’re absolutely write in assuming as such when talking about the characters. Capcom didn’t put a lot of time or substance in writing them….which, prior to DMC3, I never had a problem with, because the plot didn’t demand anything out of them. This is why I view DMC3’s big shift as a problem, because the plot and story structure was something they did put effort and thought into….with the inherent problem being that they didn’t do the same with the characters. The story wants to take itself seriously, and they base all of the drama around the interaction between these characters, but you don’t give enough of a **** about the characters, because you aren’t TOLD ENOUGH ABOUT THEM as characters. Even though a part of you wants to play along with the unfolding drama, and be invested in what’s going on, to grasp onto some legitimization for all these dramatic confrontations and colossal story they’ve built up, with copious hours of motion capture and choreography, without fleshing out or properly handling the characters to go along with it. You can’t set up these moody fights in the rain, all these epic choirs and dramatic plot traversals with the characters still stuck being one-note and rigid.

This is, by its nature, the issue I’ve always taken with DMC’s new approach to writing: you have excellent VA’s, great motion capture, performances and personality, production value and fight scenes that can topple most triple-A video game cinematics…and all of it’s wasted on characters that have an oceanic mass of potential in the hands of far better writers.

Vergil’s vague and somewhat awkward basis for motivation, and overall in-and-out role in this series could also be a potential byproduct of Hideki Kamiya really not having much intended for him in the original mythos. Yes, you could argue that his semi-approved vision of Vergil materialized within the pages of the DMC Novels, but even they don’t do as much with his character as a proper writer potentially could. This character was mentioned so briefly in DMC1 and has so little to do with anything, that there’s not a whole lot you can do with him.

This is one of the reasons I’m anxious to see what Capcom does with Nero. He has room to develop as a character, and because he’s depicted to be the rookie demon hunter with less combat and emotional experience than Dante, there’s more that can be done with him. I’ve noticed that the initial backlash towards Nero was that people viewed him as “whiny” because he spends a lot of time expressing emotional drive and anguish for Kyrie, or that he says her name too much or something (which is something even I’ll admit that the writers did way, WAY too much in the script to the point where it was annoying, really entrenching its tone to a bishonen anime where protagonists are screaming names on repeat).

But honestly, those aspects of his emotions play into his frustrations, his stabilization and bounce back from discouragement…and he has enough unanswered questions within his character to justify seeing him in a future game.

With Vergil, the opposite is true. So little is shown or established about him, and his entire character is confined to his villainous role, with nothing else to do. Maybe others feel he has room for exploration, but I only feel that’s only possible if his entire character was rewritten to allow more development.

Which Vergil’s Downfall did…and everyone hated it.

God knows lots of fans do speculate a lot about Vergil, especially when it comes to the "revenge for mom" thing. However, everything Wolf said about his character traits, it's in the game (to read with the EA Sports guy voice).

For every trait Wolf listed - his superiority complex, his driving obsession to become just like his father, his conviction that such power rightfully belongs to him, and his struggle to acknowledge his human half, which he considers the weaker one - there is at least one scene that shows it. Those scenes didn't get written, choreographed and acted out by themselves now did they

And speculation has really tortured and warped fans into making stuff up in the absence for proper character establishment, which is perfectly understandable. In some ways, the fans treat the story better and give it more depth and nuance than Capcom does themselves, which really shows the admirable lengths they’re willing to go. But I’m at least happy that we can all agree on what’s actually in the game.

And on that note, I appreciate the points and acknowledgement of what I said from you especially, Foxtrot, given how you’ve done your own equally in-depth analysis of Vergil before (which I recommend you all check out, by the way), and I know we often come into disagreement on these things.

Make that five. :D

As a fellow lover of history, I'd be fascinated to discuss this in more detail, but let's save that for a different thread.

Hell yeah, man. I love me some history, and I could make a verbal monolith with the stuff I can write about Japan. So much fascinating stuff there…even if, as a historian, I can admit people here in the West tend to glorify and exaggerate some very fallable qualities about the culture and history.

If you have an idea for a thread, shoot me a PM.

But as for "honour", I'd say Dante suffers from a lack of it in 3 as well, but whereas Dante does grow (minimal as it is), Vergil remains static and it becomes his downfall.

SIGH…my problem isn’t the lack of honor Dante displays in 3 (although, the way he scoffs in an emotionally-disheveled Lady when she’s standing over Arkham’s corpse is really an insufferable, insensitive level of prickhood that really is something to behold)…it’s the mere fact that Lady, Lady, a complete stranger, has to remind him of the single most important and only consistent element to his character, that family matters.

THAT is the such an abhorrent, vile, and insultingly-unforgivable retcon that any writer could’ve pinched out and defecated on the chin of EVERYONE who was a fan of the first game, that the entire WORLD couldn’t produce enough aerosol to fumigate the rancid, fecal stench from the Planet Earth.


It ****s on LITERALY everything established about Dante as a character in DMC1, everything that made him cool, everything that gave him purpose and drive as a warrior, everything that grounded his corny ass into being serious and providing the FEW REDEEMABLE MOMENTS IN THE INFERNAL STORY.

He goes from exclusively waging war against all demonkind, picking them off one by one and expanding his reach and prowess of a hunter, so that he has even a sliver of a chance of eventually confronting Mundus…what made him cool and justifiable every step of the way. And now you’re telling me he’s some cocky, smirking douchebag that doesn’t even remember why family’s so important? Even when that’s the REASON HE EMBARKS ON A LIFE OF DEMON HUNTING IN THE FIRST PLACE? You’re telling me in the years following Eva’s death, right as he’s starting his journey as a professional demon hunter, to the extent where he hasn’t even named the ****ing SHOP yet, and this is something that he’s not only forgotten and lost sight of, but a complete stranger has to REMIND HIM OF???

They took the one thing, THE ONE THING, that gave Dante purpose and honor, and single-handedly ruined it.

It almost makes me wonder if the self-fellating morons who WROTE this dreck even PLAYED the first game, and got the basic premise that any clinical mental patient WITH NO FURTHER KNOWLEDGE OF THE GAME, could salvage from its basic-as-all-hell-plot! How uncommon could access to copies of the first game really be TO HUMAN BEINGS EMPLOYED AT CAPCOM?!

It is easily the WORST narrative blunder of any video game I’ve ever played, and precisely why I will NEVER accept that hack Bingo Morihashi as the new main-stay scenario writer of the series.

It’s the video game equivalent of Lois Lane waltzing up to Batman, bemoaning the loss of her parents, and Batman going: “Parents? What are those? Why would that make you sad?”

Screw the Midichlorians. Screw the Kryptonian Island from Superman Returns, and screw the dumbass romance between Hulk and Black Widow.

THIS is worse than all of them, because the writers tainted the ONE THING about Devil May Cry I never wanted anyone to taint.

….*deep breath. Sip of water. Exhale.*

So, anyway... :happy:

@WolfOD64I wouldn't mind reading your analysis threads. It's not we have a whole lot to talk about without a new game or such.

Cool. I might have to sit down and replay 1 and 4 to really sum up everything I want to analyze and evaluate in great detail. I’ll also probably refrain from dedicating any kind of focal discussion on DmC, because I think everyone on this forum has honestly had enough of that game.

And in the absence of a proper extension of the original continuity, even as someone who liked the reboot, I can actually sympathize with them.
 
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