Ah, at last, a challenger approaches!
It seems as though your argument starts off on a bad foot by making the wrong assumption about Vergil's motives. His actions to obtain more power are not undertaken merely with the power itself as his end goal, but rather because his past molded his perspective into thinking that power is the means through which all other things are undertaken and accomplished.
Um…
Okay.
Where exactly in my post did I contradict or argue against any of this? I’m fairly certain that everything you just said is
exactly what I typed in the prior post above, albeit in four more pages and five times as much unnecessary verbiage (Well—not
four pages, per se, since one of them IS dedicated to me engaging in the clarification and elaborating of bushido and samurai culture’s misinterpretation in the eyes of Westerners). I never said Vergil’s
motives were rooted in his obtaining of power, merely that his pursuit of power was the precise and only clear-cut thing about his muddy character execution, and all the traditionalist and self-absorbed tendencies, in all likelihood, stem from. If anything, my complaint is that the motives that justify his unhealthy desire to replicate Sparda in every aspect is vague and unclear.
This whole statement I made about his “superiority” being his main drive is really me taking the only visible and obvious aspect of his character and overanalyzing it to the point of absurdity, because that’s the only narrative scrap the writers decide to throw at us about him.
IE, without the power to protect what you want, everything is meaningless, because it can simply be destroyed by someone with more power than you.
…how is that not an argument for dominance and superiority? That’s literally the default mentality of every dictator, warlord, and conqueror vying for power in all conflicts of nature, both historical and fictional: literally the mad, sweat-smeared struggle of ascending to where no rivals or adversaries can challenge you, to be “Invincible Under the Sun” (as my buddy Takezo from
Vagabond so adequately puts it).
And no, a relentless and feverish pursuit of achieving higher power
does not automatically equate to having some basis in the past in any way, and despite the insistent attempts by blind fans everywhere to shower relevance and layers of intrigue on a one-note character, since he
never makes mention or alludes or takes action in any way to address the past or his family in any manner throughout the entirety of both his and Dante’s campaigns.
Quite literally the ONLY TIME he even verbally
grazes the past is any instance which he mentions Sparda being his father and “the right of power with his bloodline”, and the SINGLE instance he answers Dante’s remark about their childhood “Jackpot” catchphrase at the very end. He NEVER ONCE alludes or makes mention of his childhood, takes any opportunity to elaborate on his prior relationship with Dante, or even really establish his actual attitude or emotional gravitation or repulsion towards Eva.
He gives us. Absolutely. Nothing.
There is nothing within the confines of the game—the ONLY THING representing the original intention and creative vision of all of its respective writers, I might add, before the manga is yet again prostrated before me like every frantic, desperately-grasping fan has done the fifteen million other times I’ve indulged in this topic—to allude ANY WAY that the past shaped, molded, motivated, or impacted Vergil in any way.
And placing the word “protect” in a sentence whose context and delivery literally doesn’t imply anything related to Eva in the slightest doesn’t bolster that baseless notion in any stretch of practicality, and only is cause for bewilderment to even consider with the rest of his character that even its implication would so violently disarray and contradict.
He is not wrong. Being Sparda's son does indeed entitle him to Sparda's legacy. His mistake was in not recognizing that because Sparda left two amulets to both his sons, each of them was equally entitled to it.
*Glances at post. Glances back at reply.*
When, where, in what manner and in what foreign tongue did I ever propel the opinion or the stance that he’s right or wrong in thinking this?
This whole rant was never about justifying or damning Vergil’s actions, it was about EXPLAINING the mindset and how honor was never a factor in them.
And even if it wasn’t—no, you’re absolutely right, he
ISN’T wrong to assume his superiority, when he’s as powerful as he is. It’s how he flaunts it and the ends he hopes to meet that I PRESUME, keeping a firm grasp on what the writers PROBABLY intended before I insert my own headcanon on his character, that he had within the baseline frame of the story.
I don’t really care if he’s in the right or wrong. Plenty of fans who like him more and are willing to discuss him than I am can offer rich and passionate contributions to that discussion that I simply don’t have.
But that notion is false. Vergil most certainly hates demonkind, even high tier demons. It's not just his demonic blood that Vergil holds in high regard, but rather the blood of his father. It's Sparda that Vergil respects, because Sparda had the power to protect what he valued beyond all opposition.
Demons
OF HIS KIND. I worded that phrase explicitly because I, and every
DMC fan on this thread and with minimal experience with the game knows, he
kills and tramples over demons throughout the game.
He doesn’t view demons as superior, because in his aristocrat-esque and high-born mentality, even demons have something resembling an orderly hierarchy. That’s why he cuts a Seven Hells spectre like a mangled dandelion in the first act of the game.
He views his status as Sparda’s heir to place him higher than all beings in creation, hence why he can justify snatching exuberant mountains of power without any need to justify or explain it. He’s entitled to it, because he envisions himself higher than
matter and creation himself.
He doesn’t view his enemies as equals or adversaries, because God-tier beings like him HAVE no applicable adversaries.
The only reasonable “protecting” he’s doing is securing the legacy he believes Sparda left behind for him. It’s the same kind of “protecting” any individual does when protecting their investment and claiming ownership of it once they’ve recieved the lottery.
Vergil’s lottery is the power Sparda left behind. The world is in his way. He’s protecting his winnings by destroying everything.
That’s the only “protecting” he’s doing. He’s protecting his own interests, not making up for any kind of mistake or past weaknesses…if anything, even ADMITTING he was too weak to protect anyone would deflower his character, because he’s not the kind of rational and grounded BEING to even admit he HAS weaknesses, anymore than a peackock admits a feather in its tail is askew.
If he’s too proud to admit Dante’s his equal in combat, what in God’s name makes you think he’ll admit to
needing to improve himself to be strong enough to protect things???
That makes no level of rational or confoundable sense!
Vergil remains there because of his reverence for it being his father's home. It was a choice he made, not because it was his nature as a demon to reside there, but because by being there he felt a connection to Sparda.
RIGHT, because it’s
his domain! His
Birthright. His
Inheritance. His
Property by Bloodline and Superiority to all other demons, that’s everything that I JUST said!
WHY are you paraphrasing things I’ve already established beforehand in my own post in an attempt to refute me, WHEN I ALREADY AGREE WITH YOU?
You’re eating your own tail, my friend. I’m on your side here, and I don’t even know if you
realize it. And it's not my fault! :hungover:
Vergil Honor means many different things to many different peoples and cultures. It's incorrect to say that Vergil wasn't honorable just because he looked down on others.
Honor isn’t some fabled religious concept that has a multitude of variations according to everyone’s exclusive mental framework…it’s a trait that people demonstrate and showcase in different ways, catering exclusively to what kind of person they are.
And as a trait recognized in all forms of human interaction, there’s a minimal expectation that, in essence, is something a person employs because they think it’s
required of them. It could be any action: sparing enemies, not sparing enemies but acknowledging their prowess in battle, making gestures of equality or mutual understanding between others, refraining from certain conducts…it’s something one mentally employs to either shape how they’re perceived by others, or whether or not their actions measure up to their expectations of themselves or the morals they’re rigidly bound to.
But by nature, Vergil doesn’t enforce anything outside of his right by birth, or refrain any behavior he thinks too low or undignified of him…and the omission of firearms is clearly because they are manmade weapons, and not Devil Arms. All that translates to is: “This was crafted by the slaves, meaning unworthy human beings have touched it, thus making its wielding a lowering of my stature.” Louis XVI had the same policy about cups washed and touched by the servants occupying his own house…I’m fairly certain honor didn’t have anything to do with it.
It’s not something that can be deemed “incorrect” when him acting honorably has no basis in a single thing he says, acts, thinks, or does. Honor is something Vergil’s devoid of doing, but I can promise you he hasn’t demonstrated it in any real or valid capacity to justify it as a term to be added to his list of character traits.
He’s willful, driven, determined, sophisticated, tenacious, bound to principles and tradition of his own warped making, all of which build the foundation of what makes him memorable as a character…
…but honorable? Where and when does THAT happen in the game?
Unless Capcom released some new altered Special Edition of the game that I’m not aware of.
That's quite an extreme strawman, don't you think?
A strawman is a non-material, baseless argument that has no basis in reality or actual fact, and signifies its user’s attempt to pull air out of his anal passage when he’s out of argumentative ammunition.
The “katana = bushido” argument isn’t a strawman I conjured up in my mental cauldron (although it’s so pathetic I really wish I had), it’s a
very real and
very prominent stance I’ve seen fans take in vocal outcry against Vergil using guns in both the original games and reboot, in some baffling attempt to inject honorable conduct to a character by claiming his ties to samurai culture prevent him from sinking to such a method of killing regardless of who he’s fighting, which is mind-
BENDINGLY stupid on the grounds that:
A) Attributing his use of a katana to a warrior’s philosophy we have no basis to believe he actually practices is absurd, as I’ve elaborated above
B) Stupid in the sense that it makes the assumption that using guns isn’t honorable, when the main protagonist of the
GODDAMN SERIES USES every firearm in existence and STILL manages to excrete more honor than Vergil has throughout the entirety of the series
C) Flat-out ****ing comical considering that samurai not only USED guns, but even my #1 figure of Japanese study, Oda Nobunaga, famous for using firearms better than ANYONE ELSE in his period, is almost always scribed, painted and sculpted in statues
HOLDING A MATCHLOCK RIFLE for that
precise reason.
If anything, that entire outcry is a strawman of its own, one you’d be quite aware of me spending an entire page to tackle, if only you would only extend the courtesy of actually READING my posts instead of attempting counter me with half of my own points in the automatic assumption that I’m incorrect, thank you
VERY much.
But again, this core idea of what you believe is the most central tenant of Vergil's character is incorrect. For Vergil, superiority is not it's own reward, it is the means.
In WHAT way is this incorrect? In what scene, in what frame, in what syllable of dialogue throughout the game does Vergil at ANY POINT wax rhetoric about ANYTHING outside of being entitled to power simply because of who he is, and who his father was?
99% of everything he says is literally claiming ownership of things he gains, declaring his infinite strength to everyone he defeats, and his demand for what is rightfully his.
I challenge you to find ONE scene critical to the game’s plot, one exchange of dialogue between him and Dante to even suggest this isn’t the focal asset of his mental framework, that there’s ANYTHING even remotely implied to be a reasonable substitute that the writers intended, and that ISN’T head-canon.
Hell, the ONLY REASON he even teams up with Dante to squash Arkham while he’s still greedily lapping up the power he’s just obtained is because of his reluctance to let someone unworthy, unfit, and ungraced by the Sparda bloodline, to inherit what he wants.
Vergil doesn't have a superiority complex, he has an inferiority complex. He felt first hand what it was like to be left completely helpless and have everything that was important to you destroyed, and all of his actions and misdeeds stem from a desperate need to ensure that he is never put into that position ever again. His lust for power, obsession with his father, embrace of his demonic nature, all of it was born from that desire.
Where.
Where.
WHERE does it say this?
Help me understand. Cite your soruces. In what instance of the game, implied by any of the original game’s script or implications, is ANY of this assumed?
How do you know he knows what it feels like to be helpless? How do you even know he’ll wriggle through his inflated pride and even admit he IS helpless? How do you know everything important to him was destroyed? WHAT was important to him that got destroyed? His mother? Does he imply losing a wink of sleep in losing her, or using her token of maternal affection for him to invoke an action that would horrify her to her absolute core? Did he even care enough about his mother to even remotely probe her as a topic or implication in a syllable of ANYTHING he says in the series? Is being held in place and watching the massacre of his mother something that even happens or you can prove, based on the absolute reluctance of Capcom to even remotely shed light on what precisely happened on the night of Eva’s murder or that even had anything to do with Vergil’s pursuit of power? How do you know his obsession with being like Sparda is even remotely tied to Eva’s death?
Sir, I
implore you….cite your sources. Help me UNDERSTAND.
This isn’t me trying to be facetious or contrarion, this is literally me trying take everything we know about the game from the minimalist nightmare that is the
DMC canon, and you’re spinning and literally penning a more in-depth and well-rounded basis for Vergil’s character than ANY WRITER at Capcom has ever done, one I would leap on in a hearbeat if that was in any way
true to reality or to the writers’ intentions even remotely.
Believe me, if the writing in
DMC3 was better, or even close to what you describe, I would be the LAST person ranting about it. I’d be hoisting it above my lupine head like GOSPEL if it were true…
I’m trying to understand where you’re coming from, but….I can’t make sense of a single thing you’re attempting to bolster as truth. There’s simply no ground for it.
Like, anywhere.
Yet Vergil wasn't the villain of DMC3, he was an antagonist and rival to Dante. The actual villain was Arkham, who in fact appears to embody the argument for villainy you're applying to Vergil.
I….I….
You’re serious. You actually…?
Is this where this argument has really led us?
Denouncing Vergil’s status as a villain of the series, in an attempt to make him redeemable?
Dude…
no. GOD, no. Just….no.
Just....stop this plunge into semantics before we both drown, because I don’t even know how even
got here. Because debating Vergil’s status as an antagonist, as THE most iconic antagonist of the series, one fans constantly refer to as the series’ greatest and most memorable villain, to where they have frequently in vocal unison demand Capcom bring him back in future games…debating his status as a villain so fruitless, so laughable, so grounded and rigid in the unbreakable coils of flat-out, irrefutable truth, that I’m not even going to bother attempting a refute.
I’m even not someone who has enough tolerance for
DMC3 as a game to even remotely like it enough to defend it, and even
I can tell you that Vergil’s stance as the antagonist, was NEVER up to debate. There are people who love and tolerate this game far more than I do who would laugh themselves into a coma if they even
heard someone questioning Vergil’s stance as the villain.
I’m even starting to wonder how much of
DMC3 you’ve really played. No, seriously—that isn’t a jab, or an insult, or me talking down to you, but literally, with the way the context and narrative is framed in
DMC3, especially with how barebones and simplistic the story is, even players with only a SURFACE-DEEP understanding of the series know that Vergil’s the villain.
And really? Vergil’s not the villain because Arkham’s a larger threat than him, and more evil? What actual sense does that make? What, that suddenly remedies every action of malice and callousness the game’s writers have intentionally put in the game to paint him as an antagonist?
That’s like saying Darth Vader isn’t technically a villain in
Star Wars, because Sidious is a stronger and more villainous entity that he’s constantly trying to dethrone. One of the most intimidating, legendary, and iconic villains in film history, is now rendered “not a villain” because someone exists that’s far worse than him.
That is literally the logic you’re employing right now, and…I can only gape in mystified silence.
You're not following the logic through. You stop at saying "he believes himself superior, so he's the villain", and don't bother to ask "why does he need to believe himself superior"?
I’m not and
never said that he was the VILLAIN because he’s superior—
Sweet Mother of Thor, did you even READ half of what I wrote? His beliefs aren’t the REASON he’s evil, I’ve never once insinuated that. Him being the villain has nothing to do with that, his elitist mindset is just the crux of his personality and mental
You’re literally gagging me with words I’ve never uttered, and I’m starting to wonder if you think the whole point of my rant was some kind of blow against Vergil, to which I must assure you…that was never my attention, and there’s no need to employ such defensive behavior.
If anything, my verbal blows were directed at people who I’ve talked to long before my exploits on this forum, who have fabricated aspects of both the plot and characters to satisfy their frantic and implausible aspirations for him.
All I'm hearing here is that you don't think the manga is applicable canon. And that's simply objectively wrong. The tone you're taking here implies that you see no issue with dismissing the manga out of hand.
….um, because the manga isn’t a reliable resource. Maybe because….the original team had nothing to do with it, it was made by an outsider to the game’s development with no inside knowledge of the original team’s intention…
I believe we in the Star Wars fanbase call that an “unreliable resource for efficient canon elements.”
For instance, I don’t care that I like
DMC4 more than any sane fan probably should, and consider
Deadly Fortune an interesting read for better context to the world and story…but I will NOT let my blind fanboyism delude me into accepting deliberate retcons to actual events in the game, such as Dante obtaining Devil Arms before the Hellgate Guardians are even sealed, and Nero’s
If there’s consistent and workable plot element outside the canon, BY the official writers, I have an easier time buying it. If it’s impossible by the narrative confines of the actual GAME (see also,
every panel of the DMC3 manga), then no, it’s not relevant or a reliable crux for anything regarding the characters or story, no matter how appealing it is.
I’m certain Capcom penned the story for the anime,
DMC4 and presumably the next game without taking the manga into account, or even acknowledging the events transpiring within it. Hell, I’d be surprised if they even remember it when going forward with the plot. It’s spin-off material licensed by Capcom for a quick buck, not some insider’s compendium to content intended for the game revealed by someone working for the actual company like
Deadly Fortune was.
Capcom already has a hard time keeping canon consistent with ACTUAL GAMES. What in the Nine Divines makes you think they make or write ANYTHING with the
manga of all things in mind?!
It's not really surprising that you'd dismiss the relationship between Vergil and his mother, considering that you got the entire foundation of his character wrong.
Uh, dismiss an illogical relationship that is never once alluded to, spoken of, or referenced in the actual game, and completely contradictory with everything established on Vergil’s stance regarding Eva in the game….
…as in, NONE? Yeah, I’m going to dismiss it. That’s what I do with all sketchy content official company employees have nothing to do with.
Vergil never wanted to "rule the world", at least not in the sense you're implying, and he never wanted to exterminate the human race. Vergil's opinion of humans is simply that they are weak, which is true, and Vergil has seen firsthand how they are incapable of protecting themselves or what they love. The level of sophistry you're projecting in saying that Vergil's desire was to become the next Legendary Dark Knight, and then saying that he wished to destroy humankind in the very next sentence is simply staggering. Vergil, as a character, is simply not so stupid as to forget that his father stood up to the entirety of demonkind for the sake of the human race, and then go on to marry and have children with a human.
I never said Vergil’s ambition’s to BE the Legendary Dark Knight were fueled by his contempt for humans,
if you cared to—
*Sigh.* Never mind. Maybe you misread it somewhere. That’s understandable. I don’t actually mind.
The point is that it’s established that Vergil views EVERYONE of EVERY RACE—human AND demon—as leagues below him. If humans were so worthless, so insignificant, so inconsequential of an annoying pestilence that he was willing to non-chalantly stomp them out of existence by knowingly condemning them to a demonic apocalypse…
…would you kindly explain what even remote sense it makes for him to regard his mother as some special exception that he needs to protect? Just…humor me with something, because I’m not seeing any possible reality supporting that notion. Nothing outside of parodic interpretation.
More importantly, humans are “incapable of protecting those they love”?
One, he directed that whole “protect” thing to Dante, and was speaking about ANYTHING to weak to stand up for itself, NOT humans, and never once during that entire fight implies that Dante’s fallibilities stem from his human side. Dante’s non-commitment and failure to acknowledge his lineage is what prompts Daniel Southworth’s iconic—and I must say, quite sultry—delivery of the line:
“Foolishness, Dante. Foolishness.”
It has nothing. NO
THING. To do with being human, with Eva being human, or him being incapable of protecting Eva. Nothing implied in the game suggests such laughable contradictions to his character.
And Vergil’s dismissal of Sparda protecting humankind…
You actually stumbled on yet another massive hole in
DMC3’s writing that neither Vergil nor the script ever confronts, and has never ceased to boggle fans like me for years:
how is he replicating Sparda, when he’s doing more to undo and trample on everything he stood and fought for, namely, the protection of the weak…y’know, the EXACT TRAIT Vergil views as so unworthy to the point of being consequential???
That could’ve been done purposefully, by the writers to illustrate how deluded Vergil is and how warped by obsession to where he’s literally ignorant of Sparda’s intentions, to show some kind of narrative irony to his pursuit of Dante’s power….
…or, it could be classic Capcom, and they just retconned another aspect of the first game and established mythos by writing this game’s confounding story.
I dunno. This sounds more like a hole in the writing than any deep, meaningful asset to the character or, as you assume, any kind of flawed insistence of Vergil’s stupidity I’ve saddled my confidence in, which I by no means do.
Vergil’s many things, but not stupid. He has a whole, substantial, pulsating embodiment of moronic behavior that compensates that entire trait for him.
And his name is Dante.
At the most basic level here, you're completely ignoring the fact that Vergil himself copulated with a human woman, impregnating her with a child. If as you say Vergil hated humans and wished to destroy them, this would not have happened, and so you must be wrong.
Yeah…what? Do we know he even did that willingly? Is that a basis for the whole “protect” shpeel that fans are rabid about now, more ammunition for the head-cannon?
We’re now basing crucial character traits on suspect plot elements that Capcom themselves have been shady about….?
Ugh, my hands are getting tired. I thought we were talking about Vergil’s “honor”….how and where did we get here, exactly?
It doesn't really try to explain that at all, no...
I can’t see any other relevant reason it was placed so deliberately in the story. If you think it has some other purpose that I haven’t mentioned or address, I’m actually interested in knowing.
Please understand that in saying this, you are simply insisting that your personal opinion is superior to everything in the canon you don't like, and thus those things must be thrown out, ignored, and looked down upon.
To be perfectly frank, it appears as though you're projecting your own superiority complex onto Vergil.
….
How?
No, really….I’m actually intrigued, here. In what way am I displaying a grasping need for superiority? Where in my statement did I imply anything was “superior” to anything fans have generated? All I’ve done is recite facts pulled straight out of the only reliable source for anything related to the topic:
the games. The loudest, clearest, and sharpest representation of the writers’ intention.
If being factual is grasping as superiority…how do you watch historians list factual evidence on the History Channel? In your eyes, it must look like the Supremacy Channel.
Keep in mind: I’m not propping up my opinion, but
everything we know about the games and the characters as fans. These are canon, irrefutable factors in the writing…
What reason would I have to propelgate my opinion as superior,
regarding a game I don’t even like? There are plenty of other fans who LIKE this game, who agree with my opinion, even if they disagree with my sentiments regarding a game I thought was a disappointing and a waste of time and neurons. They can, and have, defended the exact points I’m making, with far more passion and interest, because unlike me, they can actually play and ENJOY the game.
Okay, I’ve responded as rationally and civilly as possibly could. Don’t take any of this to heart or anything…I would hate to rile up defenses on
DMC3 of all things, because I don’t even have enough tolerance for that game’s existence to warrant any contempt or misconceptions about my points.
Now if you’ll excuse me, I’m going to depart and relax my fingers from this keyboard crusade. Feel free to respond at your leisure.
EDIT: Dang it,
@Foxtrot94 , you gotta put that disclaimer about staying on topic RIGHT AFTER I dedicate a page of this to discussing Dante? Now I feel stupid.
