Devil May Cry Producer Wants Dante to be Middle-Aged Hero on an Indiana Jones Adventure

[Chancey289]

I hate it when people say these developers "split the fanbase", no. The fans did that. They're the ones thinking there has to be an arbitrary line in the sand separating those who like and dislike the reboot.

And an important thing to remember (some people here should write in down on their hand or something) Context. Is. Important.

Yea, Dante in the last game starts out as a bit of a punk, but that was the point. It's called a character arc. He could care less about being liked. His upbringing was the demonic world making his life a living hell (pun intended) at every turn. I can see why he isn't all sunshine and daisies.

That being said, he's generally got a big heart. One moral ideal of Dante that has actually been consistent throughout the games, is Dante's general motive to fight the good fight against oppression. Why do you think his sword is called Rebellion? Just because it sounds cool?

Throughout the game, you see growth in him as a character. A dude who's willing to see all his life's problems pale in comparison to humanity's enough that he decides to be their defender even though they absolutely hate and fear him. He's not fighting for glory, he's fighting the good fight like he always does. For the greater good. And that shows through the end.

I don't give a crap what you personally feel about the character, but there's no denying a character arc and growth there. It's done in a competent way to say the least.

Now compare that to the originals which jumps all around an awkward time line where Dante goes from self aware wisecracking hero, to a dark and brooding type, to then an obnoxious wannabe ninja turtle, and again a hyperactive man child.

From a storytelling perspective and all, this series bites the big one.

Of course, some of you here aren't willing to really see that. It's always some excuse in a arbitrary way to justify your opinion. And that opinion is that you really are only fans of DMC 3 and 4. That's what you want. That's what you use to define the series as a whole. Simple as that really.

And it's not like I can't roll with that. What bothers me the most is every detractor trying to act like anyone else's opinion isn't valid. Despite how you think this whole rant may sound, I have nothing against someone personally because they like what they like. If I did, then I wouldn't have made good friends on this forum with people that do have different opinions on the games in this series.

However, here's the thing about opinions. They mean nothing to me unless you back it up with something that makes it valid. This general "I like DMC 3 and 4 the most so that's how this series is and the rest of you don't get it, let me tell you how it is" isn't flying home skillet.

 

[Innsmouth]

12? seriously? what 12 year old have you seen? The twelve year olds I've seen call each other the n-word, are disrespectful, and will be all yolo swag.
nDante is miles away from that and more along the lines of those dangerous individuals you see in high school who you know carries guns and is like an army bret who prefers to be alone.

Coming from a land where even 12-years old can be as dangerous as high schoolers, I perfectly see where meaning behind 12-years old statement.

 

[berto]

I hate it when people say these developers "split the fanbase", no. The fans did that. They're the ones thinking there has to be an arbitrary line in the sand separating those who like and dislike the reboot.

And an important thing to remember (some people here should write in down on their hand or something) Context. Is. Important.

Yea, Dante in the last game starts out as a bit of a punk, but that was the point. It's called a character arc. He could care less about being liked. His upbringing was the demonic world making his life a living hell (pun intended) at every turn. I can see why he isn't all sunshine and daisies.

That being said, he's generally got a big heart. One moral ideal of Dante that has actually been consistent throughout the games, is Dante's general motive to fight the good fight against oppression. Why do you think his sword is called Rebellion? Just because it sounds cool?

Throughout the game, you see growth in him as a character. A dude who's willing to see all his life's problems pale in comparison to humanity's enough that he decides to be their defender even though they absolutely hate and fear him. He's not fighting for glory, he's fighting the good fight like he always does. For the greater good. And that shows through the end.

I don't give a crap what you personally feel about the character, but there's no denying a character arc and growth there. It's done in a competent way to say the least.

Now compare that to the originals which jumps all around an awkward time line where Dante goes from self aware wisecracking hero, to a dark and brooding type, to then an obnoxious wannabe ninja turtle, and again a hyperactive man child.

From a storytelling perspective and all, this series bites the big one.

Of course, some of you here aren't willing to really see that. It's always some excuse in a arbitrary way to justify your opinion. And that opinion is that you really are only fans of DMC 3 and 4. That's what you want. That's what you use to define the series as a whole. Simple as that really.

And it's not like I can't roll with that. What bothers me the most is every detractor trying to act like anyone else's opinion isn't valid. Despite how you think this whole rant may sound, I have nothing against someone personally because they like what they like. If I did, then I wouldn't have made good friends on this forum with people that do have different opinions on the games in this series.

However, here's the thing about opinions. They mean nothing to me unless you back it up with something that makes it valid. This general "I like DMC 3 and 4 the most so that's how this series is and the rest of you don't get it, let me tell you how it is" isn't flying home skillet.

You couldn't have found a less aggressive way to say all that? Did you really need all those confrontational statements to get your point across?

 

[Chancey289]

You couldn't have found a less aggressive way to say all that? Did you really need all those confrontational statements to get your point across?

I'm not trying to be aggressive, I'm just sometimes brutally honest and blunt. Ready to hit the nail on the head. I'm not trying to insult anyone personally or breaking any rules here.

My bad if it did come off like that, but I'm also not taking anything back.

 

[berto]

I'm not trying to be aggressive, I'm just sometimes brutally honest and blunt. Ready to hit the nail on the head. I'm not trying to insult anyone personally or breaking any rules here.

My bad if it did come off like that, but I'm also not taking anything back.

Dude, c'mon. Did you re-read what you wrote before you posted it? Your last 3 paragraphs go from making a fairly condescending statement to saying that it's cool and you don't mind it and concluded with another condescending statement. Calling people's opinions 'full of arbitrary excuses' and that they mean nothing without something to back them up isn't the most friendly way to make your stance known. Think about the reader and how they're react to that, how you'd react if someone told you that. It's not hard to pick better, less confrontational words to say 'the fans that joined during DMC3 and 4 are inflexible and stubbornly refuse to give change a chance.'

 

[Chancey289]

Dude, c'mon. Did you re-read what you wrote before you posted it? Your last 3 paragraphs go from making a fairly condescending statement to saying that it's cool and you don't mind it and concluded with another condescending statement. Calling people's opinions 'full of arbitrary excuses' and that they mean nothing without something to back them up isn't the most friendly way to make your stance known. Think about the reader and how they're react to that, how you'd react if someone told you that. It's not hard to pick better, less confrontational words to say 'the fans that joined during DMC3 and 4 are inflexible and stubbornly refuse to give change a chance.'

Why don't you re-read what I wrote? I didn't say anything about wanting people to give change a chance. A change is what those people like the most ironically. Devil May Cry did change when it came to the sequels. This is without much rhyme or reason because Itsuno and co. never thought much ahead or have the best kind of grasp on the stuff they were aiming for when it came to the narratives. The last game's reason was the entire intention. Fine if it wasn't your cup of tea, but classic fans like myself also see that and are willing to view it for what it is. This is no DmC vs. DMC thing.

And I believe that's a very true statement when it comes to opinions. Someone can say you're a neo nazi who eats babies and listens to the worst music. That's their opinion about you. Is it a good one? Is it right? Nope.

So, if I'm going to listen to your opinion and take in to account what you have to say, then validate why you feel that way so I can see where you're coming from. Don't tell me my feelings on certain things in this franchise is wrong just because you like something else more. (and yes, a lot of people do do this even if they may not realize it. Not only to me either)

I believe I back my comments up with enough to show those who are reading why I feel this way. I'm not trying to stop you from enjoying it if you do like it. If I bash or make fun of something you love, why should you give a crap? I do that even to stuff I love.

Another thing, I also may talk smack about some of the things I don't like, but if you take that personally, that's your problem and you should grow the flock up. Making fun of a video game or fictional character is not being aggressive to you. Which some people here, do confuse that for.

Unless those are the people who enjoy garbage like Twilight, 50 Shades of Gray, or Coldplay. Then I'm totally judging you along with it.

 

[berto]

Why don't you re-read what I wrote? I didn't say anything about wanting people to give change a chance. A change is what those people like the most ironically. Devil May Cry did change when it came to the sequels. This is without much rhyme or reason because Itsuno and co. never thought much ahead or have the best kind of grasp on the stuff they were aiming for when it came to the narratives. The last game's reason was the entire intention. Fine if it wasn't your cup of tea, but classic fans like myself also see that and are willing to view it for what it is. This is no DmC vs. DMC thing.

And I believe that's a very true statement when it comes to opinions. Someone can say you're a neo nazi who eats babies and listens to the worst music. That's their opinion about you. Is it a good one? Is it right? Nope.

So, if I'm going to listen to your opinion and take in to account what you have to say, then validate why you feel that way so I can see where you're coming from. Don't tell me my feelings on certain things in this franchise is wrong just because you like something else more. (and yes, a lot of people do do this even if they may not realize it. Not only to me either)

I believe I back my comments up with enough to show those who are reading why I feel this way. I'm not trying to stop you from enjoying it if you do like it. If I bash or make fun of something you love, why should you give a crap? I do that even to stuff I love.

Another thing, I also may talk smack about some of the things I don't like, but if you take that personally, that's your problem and you should grow the flock up. Making fun of a video game or fictional character is not being aggressive to you. Which some people here, do confuse that for.

Unless those are the people who enjoy garbage like Twilight, 50 Shades of Gray, or Coldplay. Then I'm totally judging you along with it.

I keep telling you it's not what you say, it's how you say it. I'm asking you to try to be more diplomatic with how you present your discussions and responses. Is that really such a tall request?

Also, isn't this a bit self contradicting:

Don't tell me my feelings on certain things in this franchise is wrong just because you like something else more.

Another thing, I also may talk smack about some of the things I don't like, but if you take that personally, that's your problem and you should grow the flock up.

By the say:

Someone can say you're a neo nazi who eats babies and listens to the worst music.

Been called a neo-nazi and been told you eat babies aren't opinions, those are accusations. Opinion is, for example, when someone thinks you have the worst taste in music.

 

[Chancey289]

I keep telling you it's not what you say, it's how you say it. I'm asking you to try to be more diplomatic with how you present your discussions and responses. Is that really such a tall request?

Also, isn't this a bit self contradicting:




By the say:

Been called a neo-nazi and been told you eat babies aren't opinions, those are accusations. Opinion is, for example, when someone thinks you have the worst taste in music.

How is that contradicting? It's not.

It's happened time and time again, people's different opinions are just shrugged off because the person just doesn't bother to see from a different perspective.

Also, when I've criticized a video game, some people took that as a personal attack on them.

Don't try to cherry pick things out of context to counter man.

My point about opinions still stands. *shrugs* I was gonna make a Kanye West comparison before I just typed something random.

Anywhoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo,

Carry on gentlemen. They want to Crystal Skull this franchise.

 

[WolfOD64]

@WolfOD64That's why I can't like nDante the same way I like oDante, cause people with nDante's personality actually exist, and if I stumble upon a guy like him in real life, my first impulse is to punch him in the face.

But I get it there are people who appreciate the character more than oDante because he's more "real" than his DMC counterpart, and it's okay. This was just my point of view on him

You make an excellent point, because one of the reasons I like DmC's depiction of Dante is because he's a self-absorbed, foul-mouthed jackass...
...and the best part is that everyone in the game is well aware of that.
I just love how Vergil has to bite his tongue and show restraint and patience with Dante upon first meeting him, and how Kat rolls her eyes and avoids eye contact with him every time he tries to make a vulgar joke or one-liner.

They know he's insufferable...even Kat makes a point of stating to Vergil: "Are you sure about this? He doesn't seem to care." I like that all of Dante's worst flaws are the one's he supposed to fix. And as he matures over the course of the game, his vulgarity and punch-worthy attitude simmers down. It's the writers' way of pointing out Dante's worst flaws, and paving the road for his necessary development....development that, as much as I hate to say it, the Old Dante never got.

Of course, just like my tangents about how much I hate DMC3 Dante, these are all just mere extensions of my own opinion. I understand why people would find the New Dante to be as approachable and likeable as a human cactus, and I'm fine with that. We've got plenty of Dantes....one for each game, with his own gimmick and persona. Pick one and be happy, and frolic on the forums with the rest of us. :laugh:

 

[TWOxACROSS]

While opinions are opinions, Wolf, what you said about character arcs and development are pretty set in stone :tongue:

----------

On-topic: Hoo boy.

 

[berto]

On-topic: Hoo boy.

Well, think about it. The last 10 years the protagonist of DMC has been young and that was to get a new demographic, every time. With REHD doing so well I think Capcom realizes that perhaps the appeal of their franchises if what they were like originally and while Dante was young in DMC1 he was still older than most of the people that played the game.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

Well, think about it. The last 10 years the protagonist of DMC has been young and that was to get a new demographic, every time. With REHD doing so well I think Capcom realizes that perhaps the appeal of their franchises if what they were like originally and while Dante was young in DMC1 he was still older than most of the people that played the game.

Don't get me wrong, I'd be fine with an older Dante, but the "Indiana Jones" adventure is sorta silly. Granted, it sorta depends on what "Indiana Jones adventure" is even s'posed to mean, though. I guess traveling the globe for relics? Chasing a mystery.

The more I think about it, it could work. The idea of grand adventure for a relic/mystery could work rather well for a DMC, if the mystery is something good. The only thing that really matters is that the gameplay hold up, right?

 

[Veloran]

But I'd rather act like an adolescent than a twelve-year-old, like Old Dante did for the entirety of DMC3.

But he didn't act like a twelve year old?

But, no. He spends an entire scene dancing about thrusting his d!ck into things...displaying even less maturity than he did in 3. In other words, that decade of devil hunting and experience didn't develop him in the slightest, it actually made him worse.

I don't really see what you mean. You say he was worse and less mature, but neither of those things are true. That's just his personality, and it fit him perfectly for the time period and situation. Heck, acting more dour and reserved wouldn't really have fit his character at that point.

DMC3's gelled, round K-Pop singer's haircut just looks awful to me---and his bangs being permanently curtained over his eyes just screams a raging attempt to make him edgy. Also, may I politely inquire as to what bishonen tripe he pulled his coat from? With the shirtless undercoat look with one sleeve torn off, he just looks like a Final Fantasy character yanked from the cutting-room floor of Tetsuya Nomura.

Huh? But his hair wasn't jelled, it was wet. Not only does he start the game by getting out of the shower, the vast majority of the setting is extremely moist (It's raining for most of the game, the inside of Leviathan, many sunken caverns).

As for the coat, again he had just gotten out of the shower as the game starts, and simply didn't bother putting on a shirt before leaving his shop. And the sleeve? It wasn't an intentional fashion choice, don't you remember Vergil slicing up that arm in his first battle, and Dante shortly thereafter ripping the tattered part off? Up to that point, the jacket had both sleeves.

I hate it when people say these developers "split the fanbase", no. The fans did that. They're the ones thinking there has to be an arbitrary line in the sand separating those who like and dislike the reboot.

Aesthetically, they did split the fanbase. DmC and DMC are very clearly made for different types of people - That was the entire point of Capcom asking NT to do the game, because they wanted to capture a different audience.

Now compare that to the originals which jumps all around an awkward time line where Dante goes from self aware wisecracking hero, to a dark and brooding type, to then an obnoxious wannabe ninja turtle, and again a hyperactive man child.

From a storytelling perspective and all, this series bites the big one.

You think so? In my opinion, Dante's characterization and story throughout the original series is entirely consistent. I mean, let's look at it from a timeline perspective.

DMC3: Very wisecracking at the start. Doesn't really take anything seriously. Throughout the course of the game, he comes to realize his heritage as a half-Demon, and is eventually forced to "kill" his own brother. Refuses to let himself cry about it in front of anybody else, and throws himself into combat as a means to cope.

DMC1: Has fervently been on the hunt for Mundus for the last decade. Very focused and intent for most of the game, doesn't joke around too much. Is lead to Mallet Island by a doppelganger of his deceased mother, is on the cusp of finally getting revenge and fulfilling his destiny as Sparda's son. As the story progresses, he's forced to kill his brother again, his "mother" is revealed to be a demonic clone, and eventually he manages to defeat Mundus and barely manages to escape the island with his not-mom. At this point, the only goal he's ever had in his life is complete.

DMCA: Effectively lost. After fulfilling his life's work (And in the process becoming a neigh-invincible physical god by inheriting his father's power), Dante is simply wandering around from job to job, making ends-meet. He no longer gains any real joy from the distraction of combat, as it's no longer threatening or exciting. He even shows a lack of interest in his personal life, as his shop is often trashed and can occasionally be seen as littered with alcohol, something that Dante really hadn't taken up since his days pre-DMC3, (Which is a slight nod that continues into DMC4, where his shop not only looks to be in worse condition, but also now sports an entire installed bar.) At the climax of the story his apathy leads to calamity, as a plot he himself inadvertently enabled leads to thousands of people losing their lives.

DMC4: After the events of the anime, Dante has resolved not to allow his mopey disposition to harm people again. He puts on a smile and his old persona as the jokester for the sake of people around him, and goes out of his way to end any threat the Order might pose immediately. After finding Nero (And learning they have some sort of blood connection), Dante's intentions instead shift to allowing him to play the hero, while simultaneously attempting to get some kind of fun out of the whole affair. In short, you could classify Dante's character in DMC4 as a sort of self-imposed midlife crisis, with his CUH-RAYZEE side an intentionally-created mask.

DMC2: Come the time of DMC2, Dante has all but abandoned his fun-loving prior self. He now coldly and methodically moves to do his job without much levity, only the small joke with the coin remaining as a remnant of his old self. Ironically enough, the terrible lackluster combat in at play here perfectly represents how tired and board he is with everything. Even the final boss of the game (Rather appropriately named, "The Despair Embodied"), can only offer enough of a challenge so as to elicit a slight smile from Dante. In entering the Demonic Realm and sealing the portal there, he even shows an instantaneous willingness to abandon his own life in the Human world, all for the sake of others.

I don't know, it seems pretty consistent to me. Maybe it's not what Kamiya originally set out for in DMC1, but looking at the series as a whole it's a fairly consistent ontology, perhaps even improved by how non-obvious Dante's progression as a character is. I'd imagine piecing his tale together from game to game is a very similar feeling to what Souls fans get when they figure something out through context cues.

In a way, that's why I much prefer the first Dante to the "new" Dante. The storytelling in DmC is much more upfront, and to me, much less interesting because of it.

And, er, to segue back to the original purpose of the thread, that's a bit why a large timeskip in DmC could be interesting. It might gain back some element of mystery that I felt was sorely lacking in the first game.

 

[DragonMaster2010]

Coming from a land where even 12-years old can be as dangerous as high schoolers, I perfectly see where meaning behind 12-years old statement.

Where I come from, there mostly just a bunch of jersey shore posers who say they've had a lot of sex and smoke a lot of weed.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

Let's get one thing straight though, Dante in DmC was not at all a Jersey Shore douchenozzle, or "tamarri". He was a straight up anti-establishment punk. That was the legitimate direction they went, because those were the most iconic rebellious youth that fit right in line with DmC's theme of rebellion.

Not little twats who think they're hard because they drink or smoke and tell their parents off, nor orange-skinned retards with gelled up hair. There's a huge difference between a those and a legit punk - a punk gives zero ****s about what people think about them, while those others are overly concerned with their reputation and being cool.

 

[DragonMaster2010]

Let's get one thing straight though, Dante in DmC was not at all a Jersey Shore douchenozzle, or "tamarri". He was a straight up anti-establishment punk. That was the legitimate direction they went, because those were the most iconic rebellious youth that fit right in line with DmC's theme of rebellion.

Not little twats who think they're hard because they drink or smoke and tell their parents off, nor orange-skinned retards with gelled up hair. There's a huge difference between a those and a legit punk - a punk gives zero ****s about what people think about them, while those others are overly concerned with their reputation and being cool.

Also keep in mind that what NT were going for in terms of Dante's character is more closer to the UK's interpretation of delinquency, which is honestly a lot more cooler then what the US has. And Dante isn't even a Jersey Shore type guy. He drinks, he probably smokes, he goes to clubs to relieve stress, he has sex, and he prefers to be away from society because he deals with demons 24/7. Everybody needs a break from that crap and clubbing, sex, and drinking is the only form of relaxation he can get.
But it feels like this just goes over most people's heads simply because he's not as fun-loving and extrovert as DMC3 Dante was. But nDante has a reason for that; demons on his ass 24/7 and needing SOMETHING besides MORE demons to take the edge off or he'd go insane.

 

[Foxtrot94]

Yeah all these points about nDante are true. But while some people like him because of those points, I don't. I just can't stand him. I know it's legit, it's a reboot, they had to change him a bit.

It's just that he's not to my liking. He's not as appealing to me as DMC1/3/4 Dante, cause (as strange as it sounds) he's too real. I hate people like him in real life, and this ruins him as a character FOR ME, even at the end, when he's got more maturity.

Instead, I got no problems with oDante, cause his personality is not related to anything real, he's entirely fictional (I know this makes him unappealing for somebody, it just doesn't for me) and therefore free from the... how to say... "limits" of a character based on a real stereotype.
Therefore, he can basically do whatever he wants in that kind of world, and that constantly made wonder what he would do next, and it (almost) always resulted in genuine entertainment.

This of course is just how I perceive the characters based on MY tastes, preferences etc., totally subjective, no need to bash, guys, okay?

 

[Innsmouth]

Where I come from, there mostly just a bunch of jersey shore posers who say they've had a lot of sex and smoke a lot of weed.

well in my country you can end up with knife in a gut if you don't careful around underaged douchebags D:

 

[Dark Drakan]

Another thing, I also may talk smack about some of the things I don't like, but if you take that personally, that's your problem and you should grow the flock up. Making fun of a video game or fictional character is not being aggressive to you. Which some people here, do confuse that for.

Unless those are the people who enjoy garbage like Twilight, 50 Shades of Gray, or Coldplay. Then I'm totally judging you along with it.

I think the main point is that there is no problem with debate and its encouraged if people can be mature about it. However its when threads end up with flame wars rather than debate when it could easily have been avoided merely by the poster not sounding confrontational.

There is a difference between being blunt and honest and confrontational and aggressive, I mean I am always honest and can be blunt but I dont need to be rude or aggressive about it as it causes more issues than it resolves and steers the conversation away from the good points made in posts. People will always pick up on comments that are perceived as confrontational and totally ignore any valid points the poster makes and instead steer the thread more towards an aggressive and defensive tone. If someone wants someone to listen to their opinion then they need to be open-minded to others thoughts too.

Not picking on your comments in particular but I have seen many posters with this 'style' of posting and there is a pattern to those involved in flame threads and having issues with other members too. People need to be a little more thoughtful with their posts and how they might come across and sarcasm and tone do not come across in text based posts. Can still be blunt and honest and make a point without the confrontational undertones and be more accepting of others opinions if they want theirs respected.

Its the attitude that comes off of some members that comes across as 'I dont like something so everyone who does like it is an idiot who must be proved wrong.' that rubs people up the wrong way in most peoples cases. No amount of 'fact presenting' and debate will change someones opinion of something they enjoyed.

So back on topic people...

 

[DragonMaster2010]

well in my country you can end up with knife in a gut if you don't careful around underaged douchebags D:

Deja vu lol