All about Dragon Ball/Z/GT/Super

[Morgan]

The wiki outright states that Kid Buu is weaker than the other Buu forms:

- Despite his immense power, Super Buu can increase his power even further by using his absorption ability

- Buu's power changes depending on his absorptions. According to Goku and Vegeta, his power spikes up when he changes from Super Buu to the huge Buu but goes back down when he reverts to Kid Buu; though Goku and Vegeta underestimate him due to his size. [...] Kid Buu is the most dangerous out of all the other forms of Buu, not because of his raw power, but due to his effectiveness in combat via his wild fighting style and uncontrollable nature.

- Super Buu can increase his power via absorptions: at first, his power is somewhat inferior to Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks, but his power is no match for Gohan. After absorbing Gotenks and Piccolo, his power skyrocketed, allowing him to overpower Gohan and Super Saiyan 3 Goku. The absorptions render Super Buu the vast power of Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks, the intellect of Piccolo and an even greater supply of power later on from Gohan. Upon absorbing Gohan, Super Buu becomes one of the strongest characters in the series.

- Super Buu (Gohan, Piccolo, Goten, and Trunks absorbed) is Super Buu's strongest form, in this state Buu is referred to as Ultimate Buu.

- The Daizenshuu explicitly portrays Kid Buu as weaker than the huge Buu, stating that it's only after he absorbed the Grand Supreme Kai's gentle soul that he was tamed and his power was dampened.

- In the story of Dragon Ball: Xenoverse, when Demigra turns Kid Buu into Dark Kid Buu he greatly powers him up, making him capable of fighting on par with Ultimate Gohan.

- Super Buu is so powerful in his base form that Goku thought that he and Vegeta would not win in a fight against him even if they teamed up. This is Buu's strongest form as stated when Goku said he and Vegeta would not win in a fight against Buu's base, but Goku said he could kill Kid Buu as a Super Saiyan 3 if he wanted to (he let Vegeta have a chance to fight).

Kid Buu is the purest form of Majin Buu. He's evil and destruction incarnate. He's not the strongest, but his evil and inability to be bargained with makes him dangerous. When he absorbed the Kais and other warriors, he (as Super and Fat Buu) got stronger but less dangerous as he could be convinced to hold off on destroying things in order to get a good fight, and explicitly absorbing the Grand Supreme Kai's gentle personality made him less evil and more childlike.

Like, there's no disputing this. Super Buu tore a hole in reality from the Hyperbolic Time Chamber just by shouting really loud, and later Buuhan was tearing up the entire universe with a rage shout from Earth, so powerful that Supreme Kai said he could destroy the universe in a matter of seconds. Kid Buu's version of the "Vice Shout" only made the sky darken, shook the planet a little, and shattered some light fixtures. Then he had to personally fly to each planet to blow it up instead of staying in one spot. That illustrates a severe drop in destructive capability through raw power, though not for lack of trying (Kid Buu was beating up dead people in filler scenes because he could, on his way to find Goku and Vegeta).

 

[Morgan]

How do you "greatly disagree" with the wiki but then quote it whenever it's convenient? I'm not watching the video because it's just plain af wrong. It was debunked ages ago in this video. Now let's address your actual opinion.

You took the "Ki is like a lie" quote out of context, as that was in reference to Fat Buu. Fat Buu is notably the most childish version of Buu, restrained by the conscience of the Grand Supreme Kai. He still has immense power but he could only access it through rage, not on his own. Super Buu is basically Fat Buu but with his alignment reversed and restrictions lifted, "His body perfectly suited for battle... and his soul is pure rage" according to Piccolo, so he still has that immense power but he can access it a bit more freely. Like, the difference between regular Gohan and Ultimate Gohan.

In terms of power, Buu gets stronger with each absorption. Full stop. If he were the strongest in his purest form, we wouldn't have seen him absorbing Gotenks or Gohan or Piccolo or anyone at all, as that function would be useless. South Supreme Kai fought evenly with Kid Buu, and only lost through being absorbed. Kid Buu got stronger. There is no way in hell that a fighter equal to Kid Buu could weaken him. That is a ton of power.

If Buu got weaker each time, not only the Kais, but Gohan, Piccolo, Goten, and Trunks, all should have weakened him and there wouldn't even be a fight. The actual plan would be to let him absorb as many fighters as possible, then blow him away and maybe revive who he absorbed with the Dragon Balls. Instead Buu became vastly more powerful with them than he was without them, leading Vegetto to get himself absorbed and then free his friends so that Super Buu would get weaker since he wouldn't have power to draw from.

The only "weak" absorption form of Buu that exists would be Super Buu w/ Piccolo absorbed and Gotenks defused, and that's only relatively, through Goku's quote of "Hahha—ah! Piccolo's coming out strong now! [...] Your power's fallen a whole lot. Cheh...I'm a little disappointed. This way, Gohan will be able to beat you even on his own..." where Ultimate Gohan in general made Super Buu look like a total joke, and I already established in pg 88 that Ultimate Gohan is stronger individually than SSj3 Gotenks, Base Super Buu or SSj3 Goku.

Again, if Kid Buu were stronger than Super Buu, SSj3 Goku sure as hell wouldn't be fighting him, and Goku or Vegeta not having saved Gohan before the planet blew up would be the stupidest most contradictory move ever, as his not being there would mean absolutely everyone got curbstomped to hell and back without even one punch to throw. But from what we actually read and see, Goku insisted on fusion against Super Buu, even in normal form, claiming that he'd smash both Goku & Vegeta, and mentions it sometime before they escape Buu ("Wait! Even though Buu has returned to normal a whole lot, we're still simply no match for his strength! If we go outside like this, we'll definitely be done in!").

Super Buu appeared inside himself, and the same thing gets said in a different way ("Di-didn't I tell ya to wear your Potara?! Th-this is why! If we could just go outside and merge, then this kind of guy would be an easy victory!") We saw Vegetto stomp on Buuhan, the strongest version of Super Buu (he was ripping up dimensions with a shout), so duh, Vegetto against regular Super Buu would be easy, as Goku insists they'll be crushed without fusion.

Vegeta detached the Fat Buu. They leave Buu's body and Super Buu assumes the form of "Ultra/Buff Buu".

Vegeta: "How can his ki be increasing instead of decreasing?!"

Then Kid Buu formed.

Vegeta: "Haha...he's shrunk down quite a bit!"
Goku: "We did it! This way, we might be able to manage something..."

Again, Goku and Vegeta's goal after defusing was to weaken Buu by ripping out his absorptions to the point that they stand a chance, and right here Goku says, "We did it!" meaning, they achieved their goals. They weakened Gohan-Buu to Super Buu, and Goku still said they have no chance unless they fused with Potara, but they weakened Super Buu to Kid Buu, and Goku claims they can "manage something". And they crush their earrings afterward, because they don't need the fusion and could beat him individually.

Against Kid Buu, Vegeta and Goku both agree that SSj3 should be enough in ch510:

Chapter: 510 (DBZ 316), P13.1-6
Vegeta: “Don’t hesitate for my sake, and finish him off! With that Super Saiyan 3, you should be able to completely wipe out Boo with your ki once you gather it with all your might…!”
Goku: “Ye…yeah…I’ve been thinking of doing that as well since awhile back, but…I haven’t gotten the chance.”
Vegeta: “Eh?”
Goku: “If I want to wipe him out, I gotta gather ki for about one minute.”
Vegeta: “One minute?!”
Goku: “Dammnit~~~If it was with the Potara, I could have done it in one blast. …..Cheh~~~I guess I went and showed off too much. But I thought things would go a little better than this…!”

Goku failed to factor in the glaring weakness of SSj3 plus the fact that Buu's got instant regeneration and infinite stamina, then Vegeta suggests the Spirit Bomb so that the people of Earth can try saving themselves for once. It still means that SSj3 Goku (in a hypothetical scenario with infinite stamina) would be able to beat Kid Buu, and Goku plainly states that Vegetto would obliterate Kid Buu in one hit, the same Vegetto that made Buuhan look like a joke even in candy form.

You're trying to argue that Buu with no one absorbed, fighting toe-to-toe with a SSj3 Goku, a Buu who Vegeta and Goku both agree could be beaten by a SSj3 Goku (or with 'the Potara [...] in one blast') is somehow stronger than the Buu who's drawing on the battle power of the strongest warrior (Gohan) who would beat SSj3 Goku 1-v-1, who made Goku panic to find a fusion partner as soon as that absorption happened, and who in turn was beaten silly by a Potara fusion.

Kid Buu holding back a spirit bomb doesn't mean a thing. It was made out of the contributors' Genki, their life energy, not their battle ki. It's in the friggin' name! Gohan only gave as much Genki to that bomb as a regular human could. If it were drawing on battle ki, Gohan's contribution alone would have obliterated Kid Buu and there'd be no struggle, but there was a struggle because Gohan's own power level is irrelevant to the energy of the Super Spirit Bomb. Then Kid Buu held it back because Goku was exhausted. This is simple logic: anyone more powerful than Kid Buu on the receiving end of that SSB would pass it back even easier than Kid Buu did, and someone like Vegetto would likely treat that like a pong ball and pass it back and forth between himself while he teleports repeatedly.

To use your water analogy: Kid Buu is pure, naturally existing water. It's fine by itself but it's also an uncontrollable force of nature that would drown you if you got too close. Super Buu is water too, except fortified by vitamins, sweetened/flavored/infused/whatever, then packaged in a bottle. For all intents and purposes, it is "better water" and theoretically no less dangerous than regular water, but it's contained and because it's contained, 9 times out of 10 it doesn't try to kill you instantly.

 

[ToCool74]

@Morgan

I still however greatly disagree.

​

@Morgan
I greatly disagree with the wiki & encyclopedia because I did not this as a full display of his power.
I don't believe he ever used his abilities to the fullest based on his wild nature.
I use the wiki & encyclopedia to gather information as it provides what's stated in the manga, anime or what's said by the creators.
However it is still wide open to interruptions as the series itself contradicts itself.

I used the video as it brings up excellent points.
Doesn't if it was debunked or not when it's some fan vs some fan.
It's opinion vs opinion, interruption vs interruption.

"Ki is like a lie" I didn't take out of context, if you re-read what i said
As in why wouldn't that ability be possible for the purest of Buu.

Then I would love to see you tackle some of the points made here, one of them main ones being why was Goku so panicked to fuse if he could have demolished Buuhan?

After all in your view Kid Buu is the most powerful, Goku should have been able to handle Buuhan just fine without a fusion am I right?

Also what point would Buu have of absorbing these people if they did not make him stronger and instead weaker?

 

[Morgan]

Your being open to the likelihood disagrees with not only the source material (the manga), but the wiki you're using that's based on the source material (manga or anime), and the official guidebook outside of the source material (Daizenshuu), and pretty much everything derivative of that-- even Dragonball Xenoverse acknowledges that Kid Buu at whatever his full power is, isn't stronger than Super Buu because he needs a power-up from Demigra to fight Gohan. You wanna entertain "this character is super strong and we didn't see the full extent of his power", you can talk about Broly again. Kid Buu isn't that.

 

[Morgan]

I recently heard of this fan movie, Dragonball Z: The Fall of Men.
Basically proof that any fanmade work will turn out better than Dragonball Evolution.

 

[ef9dante_oSsshea]

Stolen body he was a frog up til frieza comes back and purple before that.

 

[Sparda's rejected son]

It's implied that Ginyu's iconic look is not his original body. But rather someone's elses.

Spoiler! Read the following line at your own risk!



In Super Ginyu comes back and steals Tagoma's body. Then Vegeta kills Ginyu...

 

[Morgan]

Ginyu's body stealing doesn't allow him to use all of their abilities or give him access to their full power. He can only do his own abilities. When he switched with Goku the first time, he could feel that Goku's power was abnormally high but couldn't access it because he didn't know anything about the Kaio-ken technique, and mistakenly thought that Goku's strength came from a mutation. His power level in Goku's body ended up being only 23,000 when it should've been 180,000. Jeice also had to give him his scouter back, because he doesn't know how to sense ki without it, while Goku and the other heroes can.

When he took control of Tagoma's body in Super, he powered it up further than Tagoma could, because he was better at controlling his ki than Tagoma was.

His body-stealing seems to be unique to him, not body-specific, so he carries that ability everywhere.

 

[Sparda's rejected son]

Morgam worded that quite well.

Also for fun, when Ginyu stole Tagoma's body he was a typical alien. So Ginyu gained more power, but inside a Saiyan's body he struggled. Saiyans are truly built for battle and uniquely it seems.

 

[Sparda's rejected son]

I always assumed that was the case. In time I'm sure Ginyu could understand Goku's body...

Dear God, that last sentence... I've created a horrible fan fic idea! :facepalm:

 

[Lain]

Isn't Tenshinhan bald? By that notion he can't have a bad hair day...

Might Guy wins by default. (He's still cooler then Tenshinhan though.)

 

[Sparda's rejected son]

Tien would win. Why? Because Son Goku would sense Might's Ki and teleport there. Then Goku would get horny...I mean "excited" and then battle Might with his SS God powers. Tien would then get wished back by the Namek or Super Dragon Balls.

...Wow, that sentence almost sounds like a actual Dragon Ball plot. Creepy...

 

[Sparda's rejected son]

It depends on what Toriyama or Toei are writing at the moment. Vegeta warned Nappa of Kuririn's attack, yet Cell took a disc head on and nothing happened. So! Ya I don't know... I mean... (SPOILER AHEAD)

Spoiler

A Laser Ring blast can pierce SSGSS Goku's chest when he's not paying attention so... Take from that what you will.

 

[ROCKMAN X]

(SPOILER AHEAD)

Spoiler

A Laser Ring blast can pierce SSGSS Goku's chest when he's not paying attention so... Take from that what you will.

Actually they corrected that scene in DB:Super and made it so that Base form goku got shot (one of the few rare things i like about super).

 

[Dark Drakan]

A DestructoDisk supposedly goes through almost everything regardless of someone's paying attention & having their guard up.

As said above (also by you) it didn't phase Cell at all, despite direct hit to back of his neck. It actually shattered the disc on impact.

 

[Lain]

As said above (also by you) it didn't phase Cell at all, despite direct hit to back of his neck. It actually shattered the disc on impact.

True, but that scene was from the DBZ anime only which makes it questionable in terms of canon.

 

[Dark Drakan]

True, but that scene was from the DBZ anime only which makes it questionable in terms of canon.

As people were talking about episodes and movies beforehand & VampireWicked quoted the exact same scene in Cell Saga I wasn't aware the anime wasn't being considered. :facepalm:

That said I don't personally believe the Destructo Disc would have hurt any of the characters named in the example given.

 

[Dark Drakan]

As @Blackquill said that was only anime content, official manga material so far there's nothing that hasn't been sliced through by a DestrutoDisk & official guidebook statements saying
Destructo Disc (気円斬, Kienzan; lit. "Ki Circle Slash") is Krillin's signature technique and one of his most powerful attacks. The Destructo Disc is a razor-sharp disc of Ki that can slice through almost any substance. It is however infamous for its main weaknesses: which are that it is generally slow to create, it lacks accuracy, and it cannot be guided once it is thrown.


So apparently there is something it can't slice through it just hasn't been officially stated yet.



That's the wild thing to me though, would it be a matter of power level.
Could a DestrutoDisk thrown by Vegetto be enough to slice LordBeerus or power level doesn't make a difference & a DestrutoDisk thrown by Krillin slice through LordBeerus or is God level ki that something it can't slice through.

I'm assuming that the Destructo Disc thrown depends on the persons power level and isn't just the same energy regardless of who uses it. As if it was truly as powerful as that regardless of power level it should be the go to technique people learn.

 

[berto]

In all fairness, Freezer knew that Goku had become more powerful so that ray is provably strong enough to pierce even his golden form. He wouldn't give his triumph card the power of a water pistol if his life was dependent on it, he'd have the equivalent of a sniper.

 

[Sparda's rejected son]

True the DB Super anime did change the scene in question, however regardless of which scene it is, it's crazy. A god being injured by a ray gun. Forgetting for a moment that Son-Kun is a god he's still capable of destroying a planet, yet a ray gun does him in. (Note: Roshi blew up the first moon in Dragon Ball, and Piccolo blew up the second moon, recreated by God in Z. Since Goku is clearly stronger than these two I'm assuming that Goku can destroy a planet as well) (By "God" I mean "Kami-Sama" aka "Kami".) Goku being a SSGSS or not doesn't excuse him from being taken down by a ray gun. Hence Whis's lesson and Toriyama throwing continuity to the wind for drama.

Vegeta warned Nappa to avoid the Kienzan. It would be odd for Vegeta to warn the clearly superior Nappa if the move didn't have some "force" behind it. YET! The same move did nothing to the much, much more powerful Cell.

Like I said, Dragon Ball characters are weak to whatever Plot Device is needed at any given time. Whether it be "Filler material" or not. :bored: