All about Dragon Ball/Z/GT/Super

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In my opinion, Ultimate Gohan was just meant to make Gohan relevant and in SSj3-tier (on the likes of Gotenks and Goku, Super Buu, etc.). He wasn't meant to be the absolute strongest warrior, stronger than past, present, and future enemies forever and ever. At least not without effort to maintain that. It was more like Toriyama acknowledging "Okay, Gohan only gets super powerful when he's mad, but he shouldn't be getting mad every single time an enemy shows up just to use the power other characters can access normally" and so the Ultimate power-up brought it all out so he wouldn't need to get mad. It's like if Krillin had to keep getting blown up just for Goku to reach the next level of Super Saiyan. It'd get old.
 
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Lmao oh my god, did they all watch the same series? You're right, a Rage Boost was literally how Goku unlocked the Super Saiyan transformation in the first place, Broly was just one big walking Rage Boost on his own in the movies as soon as "KAKAROT!!!!" showed up, and Future Trunks had his when his Gohan died. It's not just a Gohan-exclusive thing, what are people even on when they say that?
 
Broly never faced Ultimate Gohan because Gohan went Super Saiyan in the second Broly movie. I'm pretty sure he did. And that movie ended with a Goku + Gohan + Goten Kamehameha plus Trunks tossing a Ki ball at Broly to distract him, so if that was Ultimate Gohan at that point then LOL.
 
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HOLY SH!T who the hell is drawing Gohan? look at those baby ARMS! chi-chi is more ripped than gohan! :eek: WOW.. i mean wow.. this is the worst gohan character design ever.
 
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See? That's what happens when you don't train! He'd be way more built if he got in on some sessions with Goku or Vegeta.
 
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The video for Absalon says it's "unavailable in Restricted Mode", so I can't see it.
Edit: Turns out I can if I take off Restricted Mode, but that mode was for blocking flagged/inappropriate content. Don't get why it's on this video.
Edit 2: Does anyone else read the Dragonball Multiverse comic, or watch the animated adaptation? I recently got into it while it's not as high-quality as the Absalon series, it's pretty good and it's got some comedy too, using the whole "multiversal tournament" as the basis of its plot.
 
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I. Yup, catching up with Absalon on YouTube right now. I'm even on episode 3. I like the animation quality, and by this point I gotta agree with the comments saying it's better than DB Super, at least because we get a not-sick-looking-stickman Gohan, and Goten and Trunks are still strong instead of all being a bunch of slacker halfbreeds. As canon as it seems that hybrids simply don't have the fighting instinct of their parents, Goku was still onto something when he said the world needed to know how to defend itself without him.

II. Dragonball Multiverse the comic, and the animated adaptation below:


The voice acting comes in on the second episode, and it's way better in comic form than animated but that's probably because the comic and animation are done by different people so the drop in quality is to be expected. And also maybe tracing, I guess? (for the purposes of catching/keeping up: the episodes so far are one per chapter, so after watching Ep 4, skip to Chapter 5 which is directly after and features Trunks talking to his other selves from the Multiverse).

III. I just now heard of Dragonball Heroes, and just in case Broly by himself wasn't ridiculous enough, there's SSj4 Broly. Redeming value though, we actually get to see a decent female Super Saiyan, SSj3 Adult Gotenks, and Vegeta going straight to SSj4 after seeing Bulma KOed by a ki blast, lol.
 
I think they covered that with the presence of Namekians on board the ship. Namekians in general have a talent for reading the alignments in a person's heart, they're universally (multiversally?) pacifistic, and Piccolo was right there so he gave them a quick check with his telepathy powers. At least I'd hope he could still do that. If not him then Goku and Vegeta could read the hosts' minds and see if they were legit.
 
I went past the Broly part in DB Multiverse; he was trapped in ice because he wandered in the vacuum of space for too long, and they covered some of the plot of the Broly saga as having taken place in Universes 4, 6, 16, 17, 18, and 20. He was beaten with a Spirit Bomb (with Oolong as a distraction) instead of a random punch from Goku, which works so well that I'll pretend that's what happened in the actual movie. :P

And yes, Battle of Gods mentioned different universes. The main one we see in Dragonball is Universe 7 out of 12. From what they said in Super, 7 and 6 are "Mirror Universes" according to the canon, because they equal 13. (So 1 and 12 are mirrors, 2 and 11, 3 and 10, 4 and 9, and on and on). But BoG and Super are recent, whereas Dragonball Multiverse has been around since 2008, featuring 20 universes instead of 12 and they haven't mentioned "mirror universes" yet although there are "identical" participants (that gag scene w the Gohans and Videls).
 
II. From what I gather, timelines exist within those universes as well, but traveling through time is considered a "mortal sin" because it generates branching timelines within the universe if not sanctioned by the Time Patrol. That's how Trunks ends up working for the Supreme Kai of Time in Dragonball Xenoverse (but his case really wasn't that serious, SKoT just needed a friend, lol). In general the concept of Time Travel as Toriyama wrote it with the Android Saga is kind of a mess so I wouldn't touch it. DBM is a bit better about it.

III. Theoretically anyone can do the fusion dance and fuse, but their power levels have to be equal so they'd have to check how much stronger Chi-Chi is than Bulma because Bulma's never been a martial artist.
 
I. Caught up to Dragonball Multiverse; there were way too many good moments in that comic to count. I recommend it.

II. They had something going on with time travel in DBZ in that it looked like Trunks was traveling to a specific set of coordinates to at least explain why he didn't lose himself in the timestream or a "corrected version" of his own timeline when he went back home, and it would almost make sense but then Cell happened.

IIRC, there's: the "Original Timeline" where Future Trunks comes from, and Androids 17 and 18 killed mostly everyone; the "Series Timeline" which we see, where 19 and 20 came out first despite them having no reason to be activated, and 17 and 18 were somehow stronger than the ones from Trunks's timeline; the "Cell timeline", where Trunks defeats androids 17 and 18 with the blueprints and not a power boost, but doesn't know about Cell and then Cell kills him; and then some timeline Future Trunks goes to where the androids are still alive, he defeats them with a power boost and not the blueprints, and defeats Cell too, which is maybe the "Future Trunks" timeline too except I'm pretty sure he'd defeated them already in that timeline, just that Cell didn't stop him from taking that second trip, because if he didn't beat them yet then the second trip would be pointless as there was no reason for him to go back.

So if there was a timeline where Trunks beat the androids and was going to go back and tell our guys about it, but Cell got the jump on him, how do we know the same Trunks that went back the first time is the same one that came back the second time? That first Trunks might already be dead. Then it's the second one that comes back and notices everything went wrong. Or maybe it's another Trunks from another timeline?

III. General consensus says the name would be Bulchi, but a Metamoran fusion usually takes the younger person's name first (Gogeta, Gotenks) so for 'canon' reasons, Chima. It'd be Bulchi if it was a Potara fusion.

IV. If something like Super Saiyan God has the effect of "the body learns from the experience and gets stronger", Vegetto making Goku and Vegeta stronger as individuals doesn't sound like that big a deal. It'd kind of be expected.
 
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Well the thing is, human civilizations in general are made up of groups, and groups try to exclude outsiders from it on principle by way of their language, as it makes whatever they're on about, "theirs". It's the same with fan nicknames and in-jokes. That and to be honest, "Hyperbolic Time Chamber" and "Room of Space and Time" take a bit too long to type than their abbreviated counterparts, and if anyone is in a discussion using those terms but doesn't know what either of those terms mean or that they're interchangeable, I'd be hard pressed to call them a fan. It's assumed someone wanting to engage in a topic about Cell has seen the Cell Saga and therefore knows that the characters went into the "weird white gravity room" at some point to train-- either they know what the name of it is, or heard it but forgot. Then whether they use HBT or RoSaT is personal preference. It's like going into a DMC discussion and not knowing what "DT" or "DDT" is.

II. Okay I worked it out. The "Cell Timeline" where Trunks died in is one where Cell ultimately didn't make an appearance in the past at all. In that timeline, Trunks went back to help with the Androids, he and Krillin ventured to Dr. Gero's lab and found the blueprints for the shutdown remote, but they did not go underground to where the Cell Project was happening. They shut down the Androids, and no (born) Cell meant no Cell Games. That was theoretically the best timeline for the Z-Fighters since no one died, but no one trained as hard, Gohan didn't turn SSj2, the Androids are never reformed so Krillin and 18 never hooked up, 17 didn't become a park ranger, etc. The Buu Saga might still have happened but that'd be speculation. Anyway, Trunks would take the shutdown remote back to his time, defeat his androids with the same method, but by that point Cell was born. He didn't find the Androids since they were shut down, so he killed Trunks and hijacked the machine.

Cell's hijacking sorta retconned this unseen timeline and he ensured his own death. He showed up, and Trunks (on his second trip) eventually found the Time Machine that was left abandoned, that wouldn't have been there before. Cell fought the Z Fighters, then blabbed about the underground lab and the Cell Project and how he got there. The result? Trunks and Krillin not only found the blueprints, but they went underground and destroyed the lab, killing Cell before he was even born (lol aborted). Future Cell's continued presence in the Series Timeline meant that Trunks didn't go back home so soon to defeat the Androids. Cell became Perfect, started the Cell Games, everyone trained their asses off, Gohan went SSj2, Goku died, Cell killed Trunks out of spite then he got vaporized by Gohan. But! Trunks is brought back to life and the Androids are reformed, so Trunks then leaves from here to his future, where he kills the Androids by brute force and wipes Cell out before Cell can kill him and go back in time. So basically Cell killed Trunks twice and himself twice through his own actions. I can't seem to figure out why Trunks would need to go back to the past the second time around, but that's now a minor issue.

III. That reminds me that there's a minor plothole, in that Vegetto separated almost instantly after being absorbed despite Potara being a permafusion, but Buu absorbed Gotenks at SSj3 and got the boost for a full 30 minutes even though SSj3 reduces the amount of time to 5 because it's so energy intensive. But skipping that, yeah Bulchi would need to be absorbed by Buu to separate. Then we'd have to hope that Bulma and Chichi know their way out unless Mr. Buu expels them himself.

IV. He wouldn't do it, even if he could do it. He'd likely object to using a form or technique he didn't straight-up train his ass off for, and using Goku's moves would probs make him sick. That's why he's never used a Kamehameha before. It's a pride issue, lol. Anyway, slap Bulma in front of him and he wouldn't need SSj3. [/shot]

V. Hmmmm... Super Saiyan 3 was definitely not a natural transformation, since Goku pulled that form out when he was already dead, and the dead don't have the stamina limitations of the living as their "bodies" are ageless. Goku said so himself: "Super Saiyan 3 is only supposed to be used in the afterlife. It uses too much energy for this world of time. You get instantly worn out!" So it drains stamina/energy far quicker than normal in order to maximize Ki output, whereas other SSj transformations are more evenly distributed.

Where you say "SSj3 would be better if it looked unique in appearance to each character", I'd say that's the purpose of SSj4 in GT. It drains stamina at a much slower rate than the SSj3 transformation does, looks different to each character, and seemed to be taking advantage of the natural Saiyan characteristic of having tails and transforming into their Great Ape forms (where the Great Ape form itself doesn't drain stamina, it stays until the full moon is destroyed, leaves, or their tails are cut). SSj3 isn't natural so that's why it all looks the same no matter who does it.
 
@Morgan


Right ?
But it's still screwed up because how would 17 & 18 be in Trunks's timeline if they were stopped in Goku's timeline & Trunks's timeline still looks like crap ?



Wasn't that already explained?

Multiverse theory in a nutshell if I recall which means that Trunks going back and helping the main/Goku timeline had no effect since him doing that created another verse which his now exist in.
 
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@VampireWicked Yeap, what ToCool said. The timeline isn't a single circuit, he created a bunch of branching timelines and traveled to/from those by setting specific coordinates, so what happened in those didn't affect his. The Future Trunks we see doesn't beat the Androids from his own timeline until the very end of the Cell Saga when he definitively goes back to do it.

At any rate, I just worked this out again, I don't think any version of him defeats the Androids before he makes a second trip to the past, because the second trip is where he finds blueprints since he isn't strong enough to do it himself. The Series Timeline is where he finds the blueprints and Cell exists, so he doesn't immediately go back to beat his own Androids but instead trains (and gets 1-2 years older in the process... I wonder how his Bulma deals with it...)

What were the chances of Cell and a living Trunks ending up on the same exact timeline, though? ... and if Cell just hijacked the machine and went to wherever it was that that particular Trunks was going to in the first place (he didn't modify the coordinates or anything, he just devolved to fit in the machine), he ended up on Earth at a point in time before Trunks even took his first trip, then hatched, etc. and the machine collected dust/moss/whatever. Was Trunks really intending on going back that far, to tell the Z Fighters that he beat the Androids with the blueprints, before they even know who he is? That seems kinda pointless.
 
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Vegetto and Buuhan are both stronger than Kid Buu, since Kid Buu is the presumed "Base form" with nothing absorbed, not even the Supreme Kais. He's on even footing with (or slightly weaker than) SSj3 Goku at full power, just that SSj3 has the obvious "can't hold this form for long" weakness. What Kid Buu has going for him is that he's dangerous because he's made of pure rage and evil, relies on his regeneration, has perpetual endurance, and gives absolutely 0 cares about collateral damage, so he'll blow up the planet he's on if he has to. The SuperSpiritBomb was there to obliterate every single piece of him so that he wouldn't come back, and even then he had to be distracted long enough to get hit IIRC. He held it back just until Goku (an exhausted Base form Goku, mind you) got his own Ki restored to full and could use his power to push it further.

So assuming Vegetto himself ever got hit with a SuperSpiritBomb, he'd hold it back pretty fine. He'd even entertain a "struggle mode" like in Budokai and toss it back and forth like a pong ball, but ultimately he would win it.
 
What Kid Buu has going for him is that he's dangerous because he's made of pure rage and evil

Glad to run across someone else who actually knows this, you won't believe how many fans think Kid Buu is the strongest despite everything in the manga pointing to the contrary.

They completely misinterpret him being the "most dangerous" to meaning that he has to be the most powerful.

As you said what made Kidd Buu the most dangerous is he is pure 100% evil and doesn't have anything holding him back whatsoever, the other Buu forms had other beings aborbed and although the main Buu was mostly in control a bit of their morality and thought patterns rub off which is why Fat Buu loved food and destroyed cities instead of just flat out blowing up the world like Kid Buu did.
 
Glad to run across someone else who actually knows this, you won't believe how many fans think Kid Buu is the strongest despite everything in the manga pointing to the contrary.

They completely misinterpret him being the "most dangerous" to meaning that he has to be the most powerful.

As you said what made Kidd Buu the most dangerous is he is pure 100% evil and doesn't have anything holding him back whatsoever, the other Buu forms had other beings aborbed and although the main Buu was mostly in control a bit of their morality and thought patterns rub off which is why Fat Buu loved food and destroyed cities instead of just flat out blowing up the world like Kid Buu did.
Even if people didn't read the manga, didn't they reference his power dropping in the anime? He bulked up and either Goku or Vegeta mentioned that his power spiked up, then when he stabilized into his Kid form they noted that he got weaker to the point of them underestimating him.

So yeah, Kid Buu can't be reasoned with. The closest any "Absorbed" version of Buu got to Kid Buu's behavior was Super Buu pulling the Human Extinction Attack and making Piccolo look stupid.
 
@Morgan
I actually do disagree with you on this @ToCool74 & i don't even misinterpret the "most dangerous" statement.

I see KidBuu being the strongest version because of the versions of him afterwards were diluted with absorptions, like adding different substances to water.

2. Another point i disagree with is being weaker than SuperSaiyan 3.
Other then holding back a SuperSpiritBomb, i question was KidBuu ever shown to use the fullest extent of his power.

3. The other thing that makes me see the possibility is Goku saying According to Goku, Majin Buu possesses a unique ability to confuse others' perception of his power - in Goku's own words "his ki is like a lie".
Now why wouldn't be possible for the purest form.

So do you honestly think that Goku would be able to go toe to toe with Buuhan?, Depsite the latter having a Gohan absorbed who demolished a Buu who was able to go head to head and only barely lose to a SSJ3 Gotenks?

The fact that Goku was able to fight Kidd Buu is indication enough that he is not the strongest, otherwise Goku would not have been so desperate in fusing with Vegeta in the first place when facing Super Buu or even Buuhan for that matter.
 
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@ToCool74


2. It's not a matter of Goku being stronger than SuperBuu but Goku fused with Vegeta as that was another option.
He didn't need to rely on SuperSaiyan 3, fighting side by side with Vegeta, or facing SuperBuu alone when he a more guaranteed option.

It's having an option vs a lack of options.

The context of the entire thing was that it was more of the "ONLY OPTION" rather than simply just a convenient one.

Goku made it seem like if he did not fuse with Gohan or Vegeta they where completely screwed which shows when he panicked when Gohan actually dropped the earring upon the initial throw and when he begged Vegeta to take the earring and fuse, he knew that if they did not fuse it was game over.

But when Goku faced Kid Buu on supreme Kai's planet he was pretty darn confident he could take on Kid Buu, if Kid buu was more powerful than Buuhan then there is no way Vegeta or Goku would have destroyed those earrings point blank period, they are not that dumb, they knew that although there was a chance they could lose that they actually HAD a chance against Kid Buu without a fusion being necessary which turned out to be true.
 
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