Why does Ninja Theory get all the bullsh*t?

[OppressedWriter]

No, but these are their words (or at least their views).

http://www.famitsu.com/images/000/031/133/51556bb28e407.html
In those pictures, old Dante is compared to emos, and even the eighties rockers are explicitly in there.

Once his hair is grown out like the original Dante, and he has that red coat again, doesn't he look incredibly much like the old Dante, from say DMC1? He even already has that outfit in DmC.

This is what happens when you assume too much out of things you haven't actually seen or watched. Your making your impressions based on some pictures. His hair growing out and his clothes becoming more classically red will be done in some sort of way that makes sense and still looks modern and cool. Ie, the red jacket during devil trigger, that is what twoacross and now me are trying to get you to understand.

Anyway, like I said, I'm sure it will be slightly modified so it looks modern and believable, or the story will make some joke about how he doesn't care what anyone thinks that he wears, because now he's the all power demon hunter. in DmC, Dante is trying to blend in and not be noticed by anyone. As he grows more powerful, he would start caring less about who knows where he is or how he dresses, in fact he'd be actively trying to get attention from demons and anyone who is interested in fighting him, because that's what Dante does.

I've said it before, but DmC is the Cowboy Bebop of the DMC series.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

No, but these are their words (or at least their views).

http://www.famitsu.com/images/000/031/133/51556bb28e407.html
In those pictures, old Dante is compared to emos, and even the eighties rockers are explicitly in there.

Once his hair is grown out like the original Dante, and he has that red coat again, doesn't he look incredibly much like the old Dante, from say DMC1? He even already has that outfit in DmC.

You really need to go back and read the one post I made regarding that thing, because you're under the impression that this is all about the classic Dante, when it's really all about DmC Dante...

Sure, let's go through 'em! Keep in mind they also were talking about how there was a difference between Japan's idea of occidental style and how we Westerners usually think of our own style. DMC has always had a more western feel to it, but it's still hasn't quite truly been actually Western. This is all supposed to be prefaced with talking about their intentions with DmC Dante, too. They aren't denying what the classic Dante is, just how DmC Dante is, so whenever it says "Dante is not" it should be taken as "DmC Dante is not."

Since Dante is regarded as the hero of the series (he saves people, after all); Dante is not a hero in the normal sense of wearing some sort of iconic costume. Dante is an average guy with extraordinary powers, whether he uses them for good, evil, or nothing at all is really up to him.

Dante is not supposed to be visually appealing or striking in the kind of dress or musical influence he has. Dante is very much your average guy on the street, not dressed up for some sort of show, just coming as he is.

Given Dante's gothic/horror-inspired roots; Dante is not a person who would dress lavishly in any sort of fancy gothic attire. Dante is a guy who is just wearing what normal people wear, average clothes like t-shirts and hooded outerwear.

Dante's classic style, while cool in its own right, does not work well when he's placed in the contemporary, Western setting they were going for to make DmC Dante the everyman on the street.

Ditto for this image. Dante's slick style doesn't fit in with the everyman ranch workers he's depicted with. The fact that they happen to be from a movie about how two men find love in each other is really beside the point.

We could also point out that to find the image of Dante with "two gay cowboys" as offensive is to have some sort of insecurity about homosexuality, because if one didn't find it offensive, it would really mean they do not find the character's sexual preferences to be pertinent to the matter. Could they have used any other cowboy? Sure, but what was the last cowboy movie that wasn't about a larger-than-life gunslinger? The point of the image was to place Dante next to salt-of-the-earth Western workers, and you'd be hard-pressed to find one as Western as a legitimate ranch hand - those are VERY Western. Much in the same way rice paddy workers are very Oriental.

Now I'm wondering if we have rice paddies here in the States...hrrrmmm...

You're also forcing an opinion of "this is what they think is right and everyone else is wrong" into something that it doesn't even apply to. It's all about DmC in that panel, the only time they talk about the classic is how the Japanese regard Western style differently than we actually do here in the West.

Plus, if you can't actually understand or agree that a dude dressed as classic Dante would get too many looks on the street, and would not be considered an "everyman," there's little I can do to help you :/ You're just missing the whole point, then.

 

[Lionheart]

I still think it's a bit weird. Why give him almost the same red coat as in DMC1 or something, along with white hair that's as long as it was in DMC1? I'm sure his personality will remain roughly the same, but I don't see why they would say ''what was cool then isn't cool now'' and ''Dante would be laughed at if he walked into a bar'', if they eventually decided to make him look exactly like his old self again. First they westernize it, then they... de-westernize it? These are just my views, though.

And yes, they did have stuff pertaining to DMC Dante. It's not ''all about DmC Dante'', as they're comparing the two ideas of Dante and making decisions regarding the way they want to go. They didn't put an image of DMC4 Dante in with a picture of two cowboys and one of Fight Club just for fun.
The pictures clearly imply that old Dante is not 'cool' to them, and that Fight Club is (along with some band I don't recognize and stuff).

 

[mrrandomlulz]

*walks into thread*

 

[TWOxACROSS]

I still think it's a bit weird. Why give him almost the same red coat as in DMC1 or something, along with white hair that's as long as it was in DMC1?

Are you asking that theoretically, because he hasn't gotten a red coat in any fashion other than as a visual part of a power amp (Devil Trigger) or in DLC (non-canon).

I'm sure his personality will remain roughly the same, but I don't see why they would say ''what was cool then isn't cool now'' and ''Dante would be laughed at if he walked into a bar'', if they eventually decided to make him look exactly like his old self again. First they westernize it, then they... de-westernize it? These are just my views, though.

Obviously they wouldn't suddenly make him a carbon-copy of DMC1 Dante if they made a DmC2. There's plenty of ways to redesign Dante to be a bit more in-line with the classic while adhering to the concepts they have in place in DmC, case in point...

...while slightly more bombastic in color, the red is still more subdued, less vibrant, and seems like something someone might wear. The right side image is perfect, because it all looks like something a punk would wear on a colder day, too.

Making Dante different in DmC worked well, but it's sorta carte blanche on where they'd wanna go with things next. In my fanfic I'm writing, Dante retains his DmC coat, but he has longer white hair, and red dress shirt underneath for a splash of that iconic color.

 

[OppressedWriter]

I still think it's a bit weird. Why give him almost the same red coat as in DMC1 or something, along with white hair that's as long as it was in DMC1? I'm sure his personality will remain roughly the same, but I don't see why they would say ''what was cool then isn't cool now'' and ''Dante would be laughed at if he walked into a bar'', if they eventually decided to make him look exactly like his old self again. First they westernize it, then they... de-westernize it? These are just my views, though.

And yes, they did have stuff pertaining to DMC Dante. It's not ''all about DmC Dante'', as they're comparing the two ideas of Dante and making decisions regarding the way they want to go. They didn't put an image of him in with a picture of two cowboys and one of Fight Club just for fun.
The pictures clearly imply that old Dante is not 'cool' to them, and that Fight Club is.

You wrong or at the very least you have to agree that you might be wrong. This is the problem. You acting 100% sure about what they intended even though you weren't present at the presentation and are given explanations. In the end, this doesn't feel any different than bringing up old harmless quotes that were not what you thought they meant, and now these images which aren't what you think they meant either. Are you just trolling at this point? Because no offense, it's starting to feel like it.

 

[Lionheart]

You're wrong. This is the problem. You're 100% sure about what they intended even though you weren't present at the presentation and are given explanations. It's like I"ve said, the same things over and over. Bringing up old harmless quotes that were not what you thought they meant, and now these images which aren't what you think they meant either. Are you just trolling at this point? Because It does seem like it.

But you can tell just from the pictures, right? Tameem said the old Dante would be ridiculed if he walked into a bar, and I'm sure that's true. And yeah, style changes over time. But that's exactly the point: from the pictures you can see that NT think that Fight Club and some other things are the definition of 'cool'. What they don't realize is that those might be seen as ridiculous in a few decades time. And yet, they call their ideas 'cool' and juxtapose them with the old DMC Dante, as though they're saying old Dante wasn't cool. It really comes across as if they're saying their opinion is right and others are wrong. I personally still feel old Dante is pretty cool. That's my opinion, but NT doesn't put any value on my (or others') opinion, just theirs.

 

[OppressedWriter]

But you can tell just from the pictures, right? Tameem said the old Dante would be ridiculed if he walked into a bar, and I'm sure that's true. And yeah, style changes over time. But that's exactly the point: from the pictures you can see that NT think that Fight Club and some other things are the definition of 'cool'. What they don't realize is that those might be seen as ridiculous in a few decades time. And yet, they call their ideas 'cool' and juxtapose them with the old DMC Dante, as though they're saying old Dante wasn't cool. It really comes across as if they're saying their opinion is right and others are wrong. I personally still feel old Dante is pretty cool. That's my opinion, but NT doesn't put any value on my (or others') opinion, just theirs.

Are you really not understanding the irony of your post. What makes you think that NT doesn't think their stuff will not be cool in decades? Again, you keep making assumptions out of nowhere to justify "hell, I don't even know what at this point".

This was not intended for you. THE GDC panel is for developers its industry people just discussing things in a business like manner. Sorta like, This is what we were trying to achieve to get a broader market with this game. It's not "oh yeah, old dmc dante sucks and isn't cool, and if you think he is you're a loser, but our Dante, he's the best, and he'll always be better and cooler than old Dante, so much so, that we went out of our way to pay homage to him in our initial designs, oh wait, none of this makes sense..."

They chose images for a 15 MINUTE presentation, those images were like probably 10 seconds of the whole panel, just a quick way to visually explain the main theme of the presentation and their thought process during the creation of the game's art style. It wasn't that they chose Fight CLUB because its the coolest movie anyone at Ninja Theory has seen, but because its a popular enough movie for the GDC CROWD so they would understand.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

You could also maybe read the article that went along with those pictures, and see that they didn't talk sh!t about anything in their panel.

Also keep in mind that the "Cool Western Grounded Stylish" in that Fight Club picture is not the be all end all of that image. The image accompanies a portion of their discussion, and only emphasizes specific points. It's like if you saw a slide from a college lecture with "n!gger" in big bold letters on it, but you didn't even know the entire point of the lecture was about racial insensitivity, and how it is depicted in society - like with a slide with a racially insensitive word.

You're literally taking one portion of a panel that was made up of several different parts, with images and narration. You're missing a part of that, and just making some broad assumptions.

 

[Lionheart]

Are you really not understanding the irony of your post. What makes you think that NT doesn't think their stuff will not be cool in decades? Again, you keep making assumptions out of nowhere to justify "hell, I don't even know what at this point".

The pictures are right there. If you say I can't know anything based on those pictures, then why are you even on this forum? Why is anyone on this forum? You say I don't know anything about what we're talking about. Well, what about you? You haven't given me reason to believe you do, so how can you say I'm wrong if you don't know anything about what we're talking about? If we both don't know anything about what we're talking about?

The pictures clearly juxtapose old Dante with their idea of what the new Dante should be like, and they come across as insulting, that's all there is to it. I mean, if they thought DMC Dante was cool too, they should've put that on his side, as well as the side of Fight Club.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

Maybe read the article you linked that actually talks about the panel and what was said in it? That way you could understand what the intentions were.

 

[OppressedWriter]

same ole stuff

... yeah, so if you can't be 100% sure since none of us were at the presentation, then this can't be used as something that clearly was meant to offend you. Which is why its not a big deal. Anyway, you're obviously trolling at this point.

 

[Lionheart]

Are you asking that theoretically, because he hasn't gotten a red coat in any fashion other than as a visual part of a power amp (Devil Trigger) or in DLC (non-canon).

Well, I do hope they won't do a 180 and come back to old Dante like this picture (indeed the DLC you mentioned):
http://beefjack.com/news/dmc-cosmetic-dlc-announced-mixes-new-with-old/

Obviously they wouldn't suddenly make him a carbon-copy of DMC1 Dante if they made a DmC2. There's plenty of ways to redesign Dante to be a bit more in-line with the classic while adhering to the concepts they have in place in DmC, case in point...

Good point. I just hope that's what they'll do.

 

[Lionheart]

... yeah, so if you can't be 100% sure since none of us were at the presentation, then this can't be used as something that clearly was meant to offend you. Which is why its not a big deal. Anyway, you're obviously trolling at this point.

My point was that we can definitely talk about the pictures we see on Famitsu, in the link I gave. I don't think they show things incredibly out of context. What I see there is that they think Fight Club is cool, and that new Dante was sort of based on that, among other things (the things you can see in the other pictures). What confuses me is why they didn't put words like 'cool' on the side of DMC4 Dante. It's only on the Fight Club side, so that tells me they must not think DMC4 or the old DMCs are cool. And, like Tameem said, they don't. I think those pictures speak as loudly as words, in this case. And I don't take kindly to people calling me a troll. I'm here to have a debate, not an argument, like some. If you don't feel like listening, then don't respond.
I find it pretty clear why NT/Capcom are receiving so much flak.

 

[OppressedWriter]

but why

What you seem to consider debating is what I clearly see as trolling. I can't help it.

You are literally just repeating but why, but why, but why, but why, but why, but why, but why over and over and over.

 

[Lionheart]

What you seem to consider debating is what I clearly see as trolling. I can't help it.

You are literally just repeating but why, but why, but why, but why, but why, but why, but why over and over and over.

I'm saying NT (or at least Tameem) think the old Dante wasn't cool, and will never be cool again. The people who do think he's cool are just ignored, as though only NT's opinion matters. And when making the game, it does, but there's no need to go ''this is cool. This, however, sucks''. That's hurtful behavior, and that's the reason why NT/Tameem is criticized.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

My point was that we can definitely talk about the pictures we see on Famitsu, in the link I gave. I don't think they show things incredibly out of context. What I see there is that they think Fight Club is cool, and that new Dante was sort of based on that, among other things (the things you can see in the other pictures). What confuses me is why they didn't put words like 'cool' on the side of DMC4 Dante. It's only on the Fight Club side, so that tells me they must not think DMC4 or the old DMCs are cool. And, like Tameem said, they don't. I think those pictures speak as loudly as words, in this case. And I don't take kindly to people calling me a troll. I'm here to have a debate, not an argument, like some. If you don't feel like listening, then don't respond.
I find it pretty clear why NT/Capcom are receiving so much flak.

Seriously dude...?

They just put the text in the spot that doesn't interfere with the main focus of the image; Dante and Tyler Durdan. They aren't putting it to any one "side," it's just in the best place to put text to prevent it from covering the focal point of the picture. That's like...imagery 101.

Then, there's still the simple fact that you're accusing the entire point of the panel being to insult people, based solely on one image that is goes hand-in-hand with the commentary being given at the same time as the slide. You're deciding what the whole is based on one small part.

 

[Lionheart]

Seriously dude...?

They just put the text in the spot that doesn't interfere with the main focus of the image; Dante and Tyler Durdan. They aren't putting it to any one "side," it's just in the best place to put text to prevent it from covering the focal point of the picture. That's like...imagery 101.

Nonsense. If they edited the picture with Fight Club a bit, they could put the text between Dante and Brad Pitt. They didn't, however. Besides, the word ''cool'' is in the same row as the word ''western'', which obviously refers to the Fight Club part of the picture, not the DMC4 Dante part, as DMC4 Dante is not western.

Then, there's still the simple fact that you're accusing the entire point of the panel being to insult people, based solely on one image that is goes hand-in-hand with the commentary being given at the same time as the slide. You're deciding what the whole is based on one small part.

I'm not doing that at all. I'm just saying they might've put their opinions through a bit too strongly. There's no need for them to be hurtful. And it's not based on one image, for God's sake. There's plenty of images there that juxtapose certain values with their own values: DmC is NOT... DmC IS... etc.

And that's it. I've wasted too much time here already. I need to study for a bit, and do more useful things than trying to convince a preacher. No offense. NT got flak, obviously - a bit too much, but anyway. So did Capcom, and they deserve it.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

Nonsense. If they edited the picture with Fight Club a bit, they could put the text between Dante and Brad Pitt. They didn't, however. Besides, the word ''cool'' is in the same row as the word ''western'', which obviously refers to the Fight Club part of the picture, not the DMC4 Dante part, as DMC4 Dante is not western.

They could have edited it in a number of ways. They edited in this way. F#cking deal with it you kook. The position of some words on an image has no bearing on anything them trying to say one thing or another.

I'm not doing that at all. I'm just saying they might've put their opinions through a bit too strongly. There's no need for them to be hurtful. And it's not based on one image, for God's sake. There's plenty of images there that juxtapose certain values with their own values: DmC is NOT... DmC IS... etc.

Oh, you mean all those other pictures you got wrong, too? Hell, you just completely changed your tune by using "DmC is" instead of the original "Dante is," which is what the intent was; that whole panel was talking about how they modeled Dante in DmC, where they took inspiration from, and how they worked on him. There's no talk of how cool they think they're Dante is, or how much better they think their idea of cool is (seriously, read the article that you posted about it), it's all about the concepts they focused on. In fact, the words "Cool Western Grounded Stylish" were actually just the main ideas they had for their concepts, those four words were simply their guidelines, nothing more.

 

[Pale Rider]

Wth? When I left, it was about the wig and now it's about a magazine?

NT was obviously taking a jab at old Dante and fans with the wig scene. What's more confusing is that how Capcom didn't do anything about if.

Also, just remembered that finger scene, and I believe that was aimed at some fans too.

It's quite amusing to see NT responding to some by showing their power. Quite lame, tbh.