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Vergil - Portrait of a Warrior

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LordOfDarkness

The Dark Avenger © †
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Guys could we please try to shift the conversation to a ground where it doesn't just seem like back and forth between two/three people that are trying to prove some kind of point.

Remember that much like anything else, even how we acknowledge characters mostly comes down to our own perceptions.
 

Innsmouth

Sleeping DMC Fan
Supporter 2014
But than Phantom didn't talked in DMC2 which is canon. So here you go. Which one of those makes sense. Oh, and btw. whole Gilver thing is not canon, since Kamiya's intentions are replaced by Itsuno's
 

Veloran

Well-known Member
Uhhhmmm...I don't think those comics are canon.

And Dante saying "A man with guts and honor" doesn't make it so. He's not even using the word right.
Personally, I interpret Devil May Cry canon as a sort of history that many different people try to piece together. Everything has some truth to it, even if all the details aren't perfectly consistent.

The comics portray Nelo Angelo as being intelligent and aware of who he once was, and though he is overall under Mundus's control parts of his personality are still intact. Trish says that though he would never admit it, Nelo Angelo has a sense of pride in being Mundus's top agent and "adoptive son", and he even taunts Mundus about the failure of his other Demons. However, he also cautions Dante against falling to his Demonic heritage as Vergil once did, and basically says that his attempts to kill Dante on the island are done out of mercy, to prevent him from becoming a slave.

the comics definitely aren't canon since nero angelo talks.
Technically speaking, new canon supersedes old canon. So a version of DMC1's events released after the game renders that old information moot.
 

TWOxACROSS

Hot-blooded God of Guns
Premium
Can we please stop with "but it doesn't approved by original creator with his personal seal of approval"? IT licensed by Capcom, also much later when Itsuno was driving ship. So yeah. They wouldn't put unlicensed comic on the market. Just like all those SF and Darkstalkers comics.

Because oh-so-much of the supplemental merchandise has contradicted the already shaky-as-hell canon of the four games.

Not to mention, those panels actually show Nelo Angelo being a dishonorable jerkbag and stabbing an unsuspecting Dante, which hey, is right in line with the dishonorable and selfish Vergil from DMC3 >.>

Guys could we please try to shift the conversation to a ground where it doesn't just seem like back and forth between two/three people that are trying to prove some kind of point.

Remember that much like anything else, even how we acknowledge characters mostly comes down to our own perceptions.

Apologies. I don't think anyone has ever actually shown sound proof of Vergil actually being honorable, though...

Personally, I interpret Devil May Cry canon as a sort of history that many different people try to piece together. Everything has some truth to it, even if all the details aren't perfectly consistent.

How utterly convenient for your headcanon, but that doesn't hold up against people taking information at face value :/

This sorta comes up to my bigger problem: DMC does not have the best writing, in any sense. It's not the absolute worst by any stretch, but it also not at all a paragon, nor are its characters. In fact, they'd be a great teaching tool for "what not to do" or "what needs improvement." They have some fun concepts and they have fun with them, because that's what the games are about - having fun. However, I find it difficult to see people applying their headcanon to reasoning why they think an element is greater than it is.

I can (and do) fall in love with the concepts behind some things that struggles to present its ideas, but I am not disillusioned in the fact of its struggle. Headcanon can only make up for something's shortcomings for an individual, it cannot be applied to the overarching discussion with the community, even if so many others choose to accept that headcanon.

Technically speaking, new canon supersedes old canon. So a version of DMC1's events released after the game renders that old information moot.

That sounds like a rule you made up for yourself. None of the subsequent games address any other supplemental material as sources of information, only the games that came before them.

Also, personal gripe - when something is "moot," it means it "can be continuously debated or discussed," and not, in fact, that it is resolved or made useless. People have been saying it wrong for years, same with "nonplussed" @_@
 

Innsmouth

Sleeping DMC Fan
Supporter 2014
Because oh-so-much of the supplemental merchandise has contradicted the already shaky-as-hell canon of the four games.

Not to mention, those panels actually show Nelo Angelo being a dishonorable jerkbag and stabbing an unsuspecting Dante, which hey, is right in line with the dishonorable and selfish Vergil from DMC3 >.>
Because if you WANT to see him dishonourable and it fits your fiction, doesn't change how he described in game, you know ;)


Apologies. I don't think anyone has ever actually shown sound proof of Vergil actually being honorable, though...
Nothing shows otherwise. And don't start with excuses like "stabbed helpless man AKA Arkham".
 

Veloran

Well-known Member
Apologies. I don't think anyone has ever actually shown sound proof of Vergil actually being honorable, though...
Dante has said he's honorable. The excuse that he's using the term wrong makes no sense.

How utterly convenient for your headcanon, but that doesn't hold up against people taking information at face value :/
Then take it at face value. The series' canon is much less complicated and contradictory than most.

That sounds like a rule you made up for yourself.
That's one of the most basic facets of canon. New information overrides and retcons old information. That's just how it works. And honestly, you have nothing to support the idea that the comic isn't canon other than your own opinion of events.

None of the subsequent games address any other supplemental material as sources of information, only the games that came before them.
Vergil's cutscenes in Devil May Cry 3 Special Edition were taken directly from the manga, with only minor stylistic changes like the way he wore his hair.
 

Gel

When the going gets tough, the tough get going
Premium
Ok, boys and gals! You can go on with your discussion if you want to, but I'll would like to say the following:
  • In case of dubious canon, games take priority.This was said by Sven and Snowy years ago in Capcom Unity forum.(Unfortunately it makes it impossible to find the source now, but i know people here saw it as I did)
  • I do not consider that comic canon, due to some major contradictions with DMC1.
  • Gilver was completely replaced by Vergil as we know in DMC3.Manga supports this: they are definitively different.
  • I've had considered Vergil as villain in the past, now I'm leading towards Vergil was a "good guy" with a terrible plan.I won't say not say anything about his honor, I've doubts myself.
  • Vergil's persona will be retconned , in a way or another, in DMC4 SE and probably in a future DMC5, so better counting on it.
 

TWOxACROSS

Hot-blooded God of Guns
Premium
Because if you WANT to see him dishonourable and it fits your fiction, doesn't change how he described in game, you know ;)

There's a difference between seeing something that isn't there, and understanding someone's actions and calling it out by definition.

Nothing shows otherwise. And don't start with excuses like "stabbed helpless man AKA Arkham".

His actions show otherwise! Literally everything he does in DMC3 is dishonorable - and you can't wave "stabbing Arkham" away when it's one of the main tenants of his total lack of honor. If he was as honorable as people think he is, then he wouldn't have killed him unarmed and unaware, he wouldn't have threatened humanity by raising Temen-ni-gru and unleashing demons, he wouldn't have selfishly used everyone he ever met to further his goals. Vergil is not honorable, he a flippin' sociopath to the nth degree.

Dante has said he's honorable. The excuse that he's using the term wrong makes no sense.

It totally makes sense, considering he never does anything honorable to support the notion in the game where it's said, and actively does the opposite in DMC3. I guess you could argue he actually is more-so in DMC1 because he's been brainwashed and whatnot, but that's about it. He's a bit more...respectful, at most.

Also - I would love for someone to toss some actual points at me instead of saying I'm just wrong on my own point. And please don't get me wrong, I'm not saying this as some standoffish "prove me wrong, bishes~" I legitimately would like to see these points because I'm curious and want to see the other side of this particular discussion, and it always bugs me when people don't :/

Honor is about respect, both given and demanded in return; it's about face, one's dignity and social reputation; Vergil has absolutely no use for honor (a seemingly very human concept, beeteedubz) because he both uses people for his own gain regardless of their well-being, and actively gives exactly zero curly tops about what other people think of him.

Then take it at face value. The series' canon is much less complicated and contradictory than most.

It's...pretty jiggered for what little there actually is that's not following the same formula. Especially when all the supplemental material can't keep itself in line. However, that's why the initial products, the games, take precedence over all else, even if they tend to contradict each other in certain ways.

That's one of the most basic facets of canon. New information overrides and retcons old information. That's just how it works. And honestly, you have nothing to support the idea that the comic isn't canon other than your own opinion of events.

Retcons need to fit within the framework of what came before it, despite what it's changing or revealing. They become justifications for existing information without drastically altering the source - like how Vergil ends up stuck in Hell and lose to Mundus, becoming Nelo Angelo, instead of the previous belief of him being brainwashed as a kid. If something can't uphold those guidelines, it becomes a contradiction of information - like if suddenly Dante's hair was bright pink and everyone addressed him like it always had been, or actively mentions it like it's always been that way.

You taking in all new information is surely alright, no one can stop you after all, but given the contradictory and non-canonical nature of a lot of the supplemental material, it's just a little hard to swallow.

Dante and Nelo Angelo havin' a little chitchat in the comic is actually pretty cool, but it completely contradicts what the game has shown of the character, and none of the games that take place chronologically after it take the information divulged solely in the comics into consideration. Woulda been nice though. Maybe it's because the comics were seemingly written, in English, apart from anyone at Capcom in order to make money off of merchandise, not to expand on the story or lore like an Ultimania.

Not to mention, the creators of the comic proooobably took a few artistic liberties (as artists do) in order to actually make the story more worthwhile, since there's no awesome gameplay to fall back on.

Vergil's cutscenes in Devil May Cry 3 Special Edition were taken directly from the manga, with only minor stylistic changes like the way he wore his hair.

The first volume of the manga seems to have come out after the first game. Special Edition may have come out a bit after the second volume (dates are fuzzy, half my library is back home :/), but Special Edition takes the concept of Vergil and Arkham's meeting, not directly takes it from the manga. If it was a direct takeaway, there would have been that demon lady that Vergil killed, and then it moves directly into Vergil standing at the base of Temen-ni-gru, no quest of unlocking seals that's depicted in the manga. Man...still wish those volumes would have continued, honestly :/ Maybe it would have explained the "It's been a year since we last met" line.

Also, just a random thought because of the comic panels shown. For some reason I had always thought of Nelo Angelo's face as just being a faceplate on his helmet >.< I'm not sure how I feel about the idea of it being an actual face. Maybe it's because it never shows emotion...?
 

Innsmouth

Sleeping DMC Fan
Supporter 2014
There's a difference between seeing something that isn't there, and understanding someone's actions and calling it out by definition.
Except his honourable characterisation was straightforwardly called on by Dante. IF you reject it, it seriously falls in category of your personal fiction, that doesn't has any importance to the character or his attitude.


His actions show otherwise! Literally everything he does in DMC3 is dishonorable - and you can't wave "stabbing Arkham" away when it's one of the main tenants of his total lack of honor. If he was as honorable as people think he is, then he wouldn't have killed him unarmed and unaware, he wouldn't have threatened humanity by raising Temen-ni-gru and unleashing demons, he wouldn't have selfishly used everyone he ever met to further his goals. Vergil is not honorable, he a flippin' sociopath to the nth degree.
If this one of the main tenants, I'm sorry to say, it doesn't remotely holds up. He knew Arkham can catch his blade with book, easily dodge bullet, and throw his gun-toting daughter with one hand from the tower. This whole argument about "helpless old man" is seriously joke, and you have to barely remember game to use it. It was obvious that Arkham used Vergil and of course Vergil tried to get rid of him before Arkham does same to him. Or you seriously believe Arkham was a kind old man who helped bad Vergil and got stabbed in return?
 
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mrrandomlulz

Monsuuuta moonssuta mo mo mo mo monsuuta
I've said it before, with "Honorable" villains, you really have to look more at the villain's perspective.
The primary example would be the Predator, in the original 87 one, the movie went to great lengths to show that to the Yautja, the humans were little more than animals, that it was still honorable because humans weren't considered smart enough to be on the same level, but armed enough to be considered foes to be fought for glory.
Remember what the monster said on his death bed? It repeated what Dutch said in an almost mocking tone.
"What the hell are you!?" Pretty much stating that it saw Dutch as little more than a creature

Pretty much that's what it boils down to with Vergil as well in DMC3, he doesn't consider humans to be on the same level as him, but by no means was going to let the lure of battle allude him. You'd note throughout the entire game, the only real character he holds the slightest respect for is Dante. Dante being the only character on the same level as him.
 

mrrandomlulz

Monsuuuta moonssuta mo mo mo mo monsuuta
@mrrandomlulz dude I already like you for that Predator reference ;)
It's hard not to considering the Predator's perspective applies to pretty much every debate about whether or not a villain is "Honorable".
Of course he won't have much regard for something, he feels is league below him, at the same time, it would be an absolute disgrace if he didn't face every challenge that presented itself.
As for Arkham, keep in mind, only one of them would be able to wield the power of Sparda, and Vergil sure as hell wasn't going to let the other guy have it.
 

TWOxACROSS

Hot-blooded God of Guns
Premium
Except his honourable characterisation was straightforwardly called on by Dante. IF you reject it, it seriously falls in category of your personal fiction, that doesn't has any importance to the character or his attitude.

Dante incorrectly uses a term and we just have to believe it? Guts maybe, but respect for a fair fight doesn't necessarily denote concepts of honor. We barely see enough of Nelo Angelo as it is, not enough to justify saying such a thing, or to corroborate that he actually is a person with honorable intentions.

And to be quite honest, it's rather characteristic of Dante to say silly things like that to people he's only just met, I mean, c'mon, Trish drove a bike into his shop and he told her where the toilet was. He says things to keep the mood light, and when the other guy shows up, doesn't talk, and just wants to fight, what the hell else is he gonna say >.<

If this one of the main tenants, I'm sorry to say, it doesn't remotely holds up. He knew Arkham can catch his blade with book, easily dodge bullet, and throw his gun-toting daughter with one hand from the tower. This whole argument about "helpless old man" is seriously joke, and you have to barely remember game to use it. It was obvious that Arkham used Vergil and of course Vergil tried to get rid of him before Arkham does same to him. Or you seriously believe Arkham was a kind old man who helped bad Vergil and got stabbed in return?

Dude, nowhere do I ever say anything about Arkham being some "helpless old man." It's like your entire argument is predicated on something I never said. Seriously. Stop that. *bops you on the nose with a rolled up newspaper*

Talking of Arkham being killed by Vergil, it's that the supposedly honorable Vergil who cares for the art of warfare above all else foregoes all formal engagement of having an honorable fight and simply attacks the guy when he is incapable of defending himself (a far cry from Nelo Angelo snappin' a door open to give him and Dante a decent place to duel). If Vergil had any actual licks of honor, he wouldn't have just suckerpunchedsliced Arkham. The entire concept of a fair fight is to make the fight fair, and the honor tied to it is the reputation earned or lost by winning fairly or otherwise; people won't accept your prestige if you win unfairly. However, Vergil doesn't care about that crap, he cares about no longer needing the guy and wanting to get him out of the way before he manages to muck up his plans like he ends up doing anyway.

Hell, even despite Arkham's strengths, he wasn't really a threat to Vergil, or Dante, until he had confronted them after they tired themselves out. Regardless of what Arkham intended on doing and did later on, Vergil acted out of his own self-interest (as always) when he cut him down, foregoing any practices that would normally be taken by an honorable individual.

the Yautja

Holy crap, is that what they're called? Man, I never knew >.< Although I did like the cultural idea of the less weapons you used, the better you were, which makes the '87 Predator a bit of a nublet, right?
 

mrrandomlulz

Monsuuuta moonssuta mo mo mo mo monsuuta
Holy crap, is that what they're called? Man, I never knew >.< Although I did like the cultural idea of the less weapons you used, the better you were, which makes the '87 Predator a bit of a nublet, right?
Debatable, I mean, in game, Vergil himself never really attacked any human other than Arkham, who had already proven himself to be capable of dark magic. (Not to mention, creepy old guy with dark magic and extensive knowledge of your past who clearly lacks motive to help you, as I've said, it was kinda obvious that it was a temporary alliance.)
Remember in the original movie, when Billy pulled out his knife, the Predator noticed the challenge and pulled out the wrist blade.
When they used big guns to shoot the hell out of everything, the Predator would use the shoulder canon.

The Predator would only attack whatever it saw as either a worthy foe to challenge, or something that challenged it. Every kill the monster made, it made in a way that would show it bested it's foe at their own game. From what I've seen, this principle applies to a lot of the more "Honorable" villains
So let's assume that Vergil saw Arkham's betrayal coming, from Arkham's perspective, what would Vergil suddenly turn on him before he could turn on Vergil show?
"Don't try to play me. I am the better of the two of us."
Another thing to note is that if Vergil saw it coming, Arkham is automatically dishonorable in his eyes, in which case, Vergil has no obligation to give him an honorable death
 
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TWOxACROSS

Hot-blooded God of Guns
Premium
Maybe, but Vergil didn't say "Don't play me," he said "I no longer have a use for you." He also seemed surprised that Arkham was still alive later on. C'mon V-man, doublte tap.

Also, as great as your Predator reference is (as goes with a few other choice villains), their practices are still born from a concept of cultural respect and prestige, which then extends to their personal concepts even if their society isn't watching. It's still predicated on the idea of dueling evenly; in the Predator's case, it's how he fights on par with his opponent's arsenal. Other villains he want "fair fights" do so out of vanity (not to say Predators fight for vanity) or respect from society that sees them.

Vergil has no qualms about using whatever is at his disposal in a fight, and even then he still doesn't care what anyone thinks of how he does anything. He doesn't have a Predator's concepts of honor that facilitate how he tackles a situation.

Side thought; speaking of, there's a Predator game coming, yeah? I wonder if they'll have some sort of system in place for the player fighting targets on par with their arsenal, or like, penalizing you for blowing away a knife dude.
 

Demi-fiend

Metempsychosis
Supporter 2014
the comics definitely aren't canon since nero angelo talks.
My headcanon theory is that Nelo speaks to Dante telepathically.

Kind of how like Raziel can speak to Kain despite having no tongue, bottom jaw, or even vocal chords. They either manipulate the air molecules around them, or they communicate through mere thought alone.

I could PM you the entire (novel-sized and now obsolete) theory if you want.
Side thought; speaking of, there's a Predator game coming, yeah? I wonder if they'll have some sort of system in place for the player fighting targets on par with their arsenal, or like, penalizing you for blowing away a knife dude.
I hope so. At the very least, it should live up to the hype, gameplay-wise.
 

mrrandomlulz

Monsuuuta moonssuta mo mo mo mo monsuuta
Maybe, but Vergil didn't say "Don't play me," he said "I no longer have a use for you." He also seemed surprised that Arkham was still alive later on. C'mon V-man, doublte tap.

Also, as great as your Predator reference is (as goes with a few other choice villains), their practices are still born from a concept of cultural respect and prestige, which then extends to their personal concepts even if their society isn't watching. It's still predicated on the idea of dueling evenly; in the Predator's case, it's how he fights on par with his opponent's arsenal. Other villains he want "fair fights" do so out of vanity (not to say Predators fight for vanity) or respect from society that sees them.

Vergil has no qualms about using whatever is at his disposal in a fight, and even then he still doesn't care what anyone thinks of how he does anything. He doesn't have a Predator's concepts of honor that facilitate how he tackles a situation.

Side thought; speaking of, there's a Predator game coming, yeah? I wonder if they'll have some sort of system in place for the player fighting targets on par with their arsenal, or like, penalizing you for blowing away a knife dude.
True, but let's think something about Arkhams betrayal, Vergil only suspected he would, he didn't suspect how. Hence why he would stab Arkham beforehand. Keep in mind, the line was Vergil asserting his superiority.
Not to mention, in the very scene before Jester/Arkham reveals himself.
When confronted by Lady, Vergil seemingly acknowledges that Arkham had his own interests within doing all that.
"Is THAT what you think?"
 

mrrandomlulz

Monsuuuta moonssuta mo mo mo mo monsuuta
Sure he asserts his superiority. Then what? A man of guts and honor would assert superiority by winning in a fair fight, not attacking someone when they're flatfooted.
But if this goes by the assumption that Vergil saw the betrayal coming. As I've said, that labels Arkham as dishonorable in his eyes, thus rules like giving an honorable death would no longer apply.
 
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