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Vergil and the gun (Spoilers...maybe a plothole.)

chocolatepanda

Well-known Member
Someone might have said this already but did Lilith have a human host? If so that would explain why she dies after getting shot in the head. Normal demon only seem to exist in limbo so the one that also exist in human for are probably more vulnerable than others. Im just guessing though but it makes sense to me.
 

Sieghart

"Plough the lilies"
But now that the limbo and the real world merged, the demons would probably keep their powers even if they are in the human world.
 

AlchemistFromEden

Well-known Member
But now that the limbo and the real world merged, the demons would probably keep their powers even if they are in the human world.
Limbo and the real world weren't merged at that point in the game, but you're right about the keeping powers part because at the end, despite the fact that they aren't in limbo, dante is able to summon rebellion, remember the line from one of the trailers where vergil says to dante "in Limbo, that's the real you"
 

Macabre

Your Friend and Mine
No one knew of Vergil's existence though, so...

It's still a better idea to keep a low profile than to flounce around with an antique pigsticker loudly expositing about your origins and motives when there's a world wide security network and random civilians who can recognize you. Hell, Vergil is such an incompetant boob that this stupid behaviour nearly costs him everything when he had to stab that informant with a throwing knife.

He could have, but Vergil didn't know about Lilith carrying Mundus demon spawn until Dante told him, and when he learned of it, he had to go along with Dante's plan of not killing Lilith at the time.

...that really makes no difference whatsoever. Lillith was still a known arch demon, Vergil still wanted her dead and had access to the resources necessary to kill her for years before Dante showed up. If all it took was one punk with a gat putting a hollow in her temple while she's standing on her little balcony a halfway competent terrorist could have polished her off in an evening.

And in the end, Mundus was still immortal thanks to the Hell Gate, so a demonic overlord is still quite a threat. What if Hitler was immortal, yah?

He'd still have a city full of dead lieutenants and no means to control the populace other than "debt". He'd be forced to leave his tower and clean shop eventually, seeing as his awesome godly powers don't seem capable of destroying the man who killed his family, even if Dante was using his power to shift too-and-fro between Limbo and Reality that he just-this-second-made-up to protect him.

He was still immortal that entire time they were falling outside, and he didn't know Vergil was there with the means to close the Hell Gate.

I think what Martius is trying to say that there's no reason why Mundas couldn't grab Dante by the face and drag him into Hell for an eternity of inescapable agony and torment, or just punched off his head. It was a huge logical leap to presume that he'd punt him out of the building first, no matter how angry he is. It would have made much more sense if Dante physically lured him out of the building while taunting him.
 

Martius

SSSmokin!
"But if we will get him away from Hell Gate, our swords will do the rest" From what Vergil haven been saying Mundus is immortal when he is near gate getting power from it.
I would mind that if Mundus and Dante would fall out during fight, but what i have seen is just plain stupid. If there was at least one guard to keep eye on gate that would make more sense.
 

TWOxACROSS

Hot-blooded God of Guns
Premium
It's still a better idea to keep a low profile than to flounce around with an antique pigsticker loudly expositing about your origins and motives when there's a world wide security network and random civilians who can recognize you. Hell, Vergil is such an incompetant boob that this stupid behaviour nearly costs him everything when he had to stab that informant with a throwing knife.

That's quite a stretch, considering they obviously didn't walk into an area rife with security cameras, and as mentioned before Vergil isn't someone to recognize, he's nearly a random Joe Shmoe in a fancy hat. Plus, he was talking about his origins in a clearly empty space with no cameras, but somehow to you it was foolish of him to do so there? C'mon dude, you're looking at this far too much from a perspective that everything everyone does in this is wrong. It's pretty obvious Vergil knew what he was doing when he talked to Dante in that place, and one random-ass demon collaborator out of earshot at the end of that scene wasn't going to gleam any grand secrets. As for killing the guy, we don't know what happened after that, wouldn't it be logical to think they took the body away...? If you had any capability of thinking that they could do something right, wouldn't you think they would cover their tracks?

...that really makes no difference whatsoever. Lillith was still a known arch demon, Vergil still wanted her dead and had access to the resources necessary to kill her for years before Dante showed up. If all it took was one punk with a gat putting a hollow in her temple while she's standing on her little balcony a halfway competent terrorist could have polished her off in an evening.

They also knew Bob Barbas was a demon, and probably several other people. The big point is that if you're trying to seem like the good guy, you certainly don't want to "march a kid strapped with explosives into her club to give her a hug," or have a "punk with a gat put a hollow in her temple." They're already struggling with a blow-hard on TV calling them terrorists, why would they actually want to stoop to that level :/ Plus, Lilith was still not a priority target until her value to Mundus was discovered.

He'd still have a city full of dead lieutenants and no means to control the populace other than "debt". He'd be forced to leave his tower and clean shop eventually, seeing as his awesome godly powers don't seem capable of destroying the man who killed his family, even if Dante was using his power to shift too-and-fro between Limbo and Reality that he just-this-second-made-up to protect him.

Did you not see how difficult it was to get into Mundus' office where the Hell Gate was? They needed someone with a floorplan just to navigate through most of the tower's dangers, and Mundus had no reason to think Kat or anyone else knew what it's Limbo floorplan was like, and it also involved Vergil taking out security systems without drawing attention, so he was a completely unseen factor as well that Mundus didn't have any clue to account for. For all intents and purposes, the Hell Gate is pretty friggin' secure, even for the Nephilim he feared.

And people still looooove Kyle Ryder and think of him as a savior, and there were more people to Mundus' ranks than just Poison, Barbas, and Lilith, those are just the ones that were deemed important enough to hit (and be in the game's story). Hell, even Lilith wasn't important enough to target until they found out she was carrying the demon spawn and they could potentially trade her for Kat.

Not sure what that last bit is about...

I think what Martius is trying to say that there's no reason why Mundas couldn't grab Dante by the face and drag him into Hell for an eternity of inescapable agony and torment, or just punched off his head. It was a huge logical leap to presume that he'd punt him out of the building first, no matter how angry he is. It would have made much more sense if Dante physically lured him out of the building while taunting him.

And that very well could have been part of his plan - get Mundus riled up enough to the point where he'd easily follow Dante wherever. However, Mundus got super-****ed and just bull-rushed them both out of the building in a blind rage instead. People get angry and do stupid things without thinking of the consequences, but Mundus also could have done it in an attempt to not have Dante near the Hell Gate. And really, huge logical leap? I wouldn't think it that unrealistic of a reaction to a guy taunting someone about their dead child.

And again, what did it matter to him? He was immortal at the time, he thought he was safe.

There's several options he could have gone with, but in the end he decided to rush Dante out of the building in anger. You're looking way to deep into the could-haves without actually taking into consideration why what happened, happened. Mundus got angry over a punk making fun of his recently murdered heir, and made a grave mistake in leaving the Hell Gate exposed, but to his credit, Mundus didn't know there was someone else there that would close the thing and leave him vulnerable.
 

TWOxACROSS

Hot-blooded God of Guns
Premium
"But if we will get him away from Hell Gate, our swords will do the rest" From what Vergil haven been saying Mundus is immortal when he is near gate getting power from it.
I would mind that if Mundus and Dante would fall out during fight, but what i have seen is just plain stupid. If there was at least one guard to keep eye on gate that would make more sense.

Okay, so just disregard how things actually played out in place of Vergil's quick summation of events clearly not meant to be overly expository.

"If we get him away from the Hell Gate (so I can close it), our swords will do the rest (where we stab his sh*t in because we closed the Hell Gate and made him mortal)."

And a guard, sure coulda been helpful...but after seeing everything one would have to go through to get close to Mundus' office, why bother...?
 

DreadnoughtDT

God of Hyperdeath
Premium
Supporter 2014
I gave you that reasoning - Lilith's human body is a vessel that she's tied to, making her as powerless as a human is in the human realm. Even Mundus' vessel "Kyle Ryder" was the same way, the only thing that kept him immortal was because he was connected to the Hell Gate, so his soul wasn't tied to the Kyle Ryder vessel. However, once Vergil closed the Hell Gate,, Mundus lost his connection to it, and it tied his soul to the vessel, which allowed him to be killed in the real world. He was still able to use what magic he had drawn from the Hell Gate prior to its closing (which was a ****-all great amount), which allowed him to turn himself into a steel and concrete colossus, but the human vessel of Kyle Ryder was still in there, and that's ultimately what got killed.

So...soul binding is the reason, I guess? Demons need to bind there soul to a human vessel (unless they have a Hell Gate to connect to) in order to operate in the human realm, but Angels (and most likely Nephilim because of that angelic heritage) don't have that limitation.

As I mentioned, that's most likely why the Nephilim are feared by the demon king; not only can they operate powerfully on their own, but they can also walk right into the demon king's realm and knock on his door.

You have to remember that in the original DMC series, most demons need some kind of medium to manifest. The Sin Scissors need their masks, the Inis demons need their cages and skeletons, and the Seven Hells the Demon Army needed sand/fluids. Hell, even the Bianco Angelos needed a bit of Nelo Angelo's power to become conscious. NT likely took this concept and applied it as "Well, if low class demons need objects to manifest, then maybe high-class demons need a living body to handle the stress their power would place upon the host."
 

Macabre

Your Friend and Mine
That's quite a stretch, considering they obviously didn't walk into an area rife with security cameras, and as mentioned before Vergil isn't someone to recognize, he's nearly a random Joe Shmoe in a fancy hat. Plus, he was talking about his origins in a clearly empty space with no cameras, but somehow to you it was foolish of him to do so there? C'mon dude, you're looking at this far too much from a perspective that everything everyone does in this is wrong. It's pretty obvious Vergil knew what he was doing when he talked to Dante in that place, and one random-ass demon collaborator out of earshot at the end of that scene wasn't going to gleam any grand secrets. As for killing the guy, we don't know what happened after that, wouldn't it be logical to think they took the body away...? If you had any capability of thinking that they could do something right, wouldn't you think they would cover their tracks?

Vergil does have a distinct appearance that he never changes out of, I mean I'd certainly recognize him in the street. Really you can't justify him doing his little speech out in public no matter how light the apparent demonic presence is, because all it would take is a single individual overhearing him through a window or otherwise out of sight so Vergil couldn't stop him escaping, and the Order's entire operation is boned. It's clearly done for dramatic convieniance and theatricality seeing as they're visiting the playground and the devs really wanted to have they're little chat happen around the illustrative graffiti, and it would have been dull for them to just discuss it around the base.

They also knew Bob Barbas was a demon, and probably several other people. The big point is that if you're trying to seem like the good guy, you certainly don't want to "march a kid strapped with explosives into her club to give her a hug," or have a "punk with a gat put a hollow in her temple." They're already struggling with a blow-hard on TV calling them terrorists, why would they actually want to stoop to that level :/ Plus, Lilith was still not a priority target until her value to Mundus was discovered.

I was only speaking in terms of conjecture, but my point was that assassination probably wouldn't be all that difficult on demons seeing as they are as vulnerable as mortals while in Reality. You wouldn't need to be so gauche as the blow up the whole building, just be a bit discreet. 47 it up a bit.

Did you not see how difficult it was to get into Mundus' office where the Hell Gate was? They needed someone with a floorplan just to navigate through most of the tower's dangers, and Mundus had no reason to think Kat or anyone else knew what it's Limbo floorplan was like, and it also involved Vergil taking out security systems without drawing attention, so he was a completely unseen factor as well that Mundus didn't have any clue to account for. For all intents and purposes, the Hell Gate is pretty friggin' secure, even for the Nephilim he feared.

And people still looooove Kyle Ryder and think of him as a savior, and there were more people to Mundus' ranks than just Poison, Barbas, and Lilith, those are just the ones that were deemed important enough to hit (and be in the game's story). Hell, even Lilith wasn't important enough to target until they found out she was carrying the demon spawn and they could potentially trade her for Kat.

What I'm alluding to is that with a long term terror campaign and picking off collaborators and arch demons alike, Mundas would eventually be forced to come down from the tower to deal with the insurgency, thereby leaving the Hellgate open for attack. If he doesn't have his army to do his bidding, all he can do is throw hissy fits and flip cars over, so he'd need to come sort things in person.

Not sure what that last bit is about...

Sorry, the part after the exchange when Dante saves the Vergilmobile really bothers me. He just starts warping in and out of Limbo spontaniously, without even using Devil Trigger.

And that very well could have been part of his plan - get Mundus riled up enough to the point where he'd easily follow Dante wherever. However, Mundus got super-****ed and just bull-rushed them both out of the building in a blind rage instead. People get angry and do stupid things without thinking of the consequences, but Mundus also could have done it in an attempt to not have Dante near the Hell Gate. And really, huge logical leap? I wouldn't think it that unrealistic of a reaction to a guy taunting someone about their dead child.

And again, what did it matter to him? He was immortal at the time, he thought he was safe.

There's several options he could have gone with, but in the end he decided to rush Dante out of the building in anger. You're looking way to deep into the could-haves without actually taking into consideration why what happened, happened. Mundus got angry over a punk making fun of his recently murdered heir, and made a grave mistake in leaving the Hell Gate exposed, but to his credit, Mundus didn't know there was someone else there that would close the thing and leave him vulnerable.

It's a very specific kind of reaction to predict Mundas would have though. Given the powers of horrific torment a demon god has at his disposal, he could have eaten Dante alive, opened a singularity in his liver, drowned him in tar, peeling off his skin and salted his flesh, made him play Devil May Cry 2, anything.

I just know I wouldn't predict he'd have punted Dante out of the window. Unless I knew he'd been a star quarterback at some point.
 

DreadnoughtDT

God of Hyperdeath
Premium
Supporter 2014
I just know I wouldn't predict he'd have punted Dante out of the window. Unless I knew he'd been a star quarterback at some point.

I'm sorry, your post was very well thought out but this last statement made me start thinking about Mr. Ryder's life before banking was his thing... XD
 

EllDawn

Well-known Member
After seeing Lilith use her baby to fight, I pretty much assumed she wasn't that strong in the first place. It was too easy for Dante to subdue her for her to be a higher level demon. So, it's no surprise to me that two rounds could kill her.
 

nightrunner_ks

You are not in control
How come Dante in the old series was able to kill a demon with a billiards ball in a cut scene but in the actual game, it takes many sword slashes and gun shots to kill a demon?

Now here's the lore wise explanation. In the human world, Mundus is weak because a lot of his energy goes into keeping up his human form. When limbo collapsed into the real world, his human body merged with his actual demon form and his human body became the weak point.

But Lilith is not a very powerful demon and is barely able to project herself into the human world. This makes her very weak outside of Limbo, where she can't access her full power.

Dante is different. He is a Nephilim and is and can access his power wherever he wants. Even in the human world.
 

Macabre

Your Friend and Mine
I'm sorry, your post was very well thought out but this last statement made me start thinking about Mr. Ryder's life before banking was his thing... XD

Crowd: You can do it Ryder!

Ryder: Yeah! One kick and I'll have this game! For the home county, for my sweetheart, for my Mom! Watch this eveRAAARGH ALL THE WORLD IS FORFEIT TO MUNDAS!

Jock: You okay Kyle? You look a bit red. Just kick the damned ball.

Ryder: WHAT?! *feeble punt

Crowd: Nooo!

Jock: Damn it Kyle, you cost us the game...

Ryder: NOOOO! SOMEDAY I SHALL KICK A WINNING FIELD GOAL!
 

seraphmaycry

Well-known Member
Crowd: You can do it Ryder!

Ryder: Yeah! One kick and I'll have this game! For the home county, for my sweetheart, for my Mom! Watch this eveRAAARGH ALL THE WORLD IS FORFEIT TO MUNDAS!

Jock: You okay Kyle? You look a bit red. Just kick the damned ball.

Ryder: WHAT?! *feeble punt

Crowd: Nooo!

Jock: Damn it Kyle, you cost us the game...

Ryder: NOOOO! SOMEDAY I SHALL KICK A WINNING FIELD GOAL!



lol to bad it never happened mundus's last thought
(dammit i did not get to kick the goal)
 

TWOxACROSS

Hot-blooded God of Guns
Premium
Vergil does have a distinct appearance that he never changes out of, I mean I'd certainly recognize him in the street. Really you can't justify him doing his little speech out in public no matter how light the apparent demonic presence is, because all it would take is a single individual overhearing him through a window or otherwise out of sight so Vergil couldn't stop him escaping, and the Order's entire operation is boned. It's clearly done for dramatic convieniance and theatricality seeing as they're visiting the playground and the devs really wanted to have they're little chat happen around the illustrative graffiti, and it would have been dull for them to just discuss it around the base.

Right, so you just aren't capable of accepting things as they happen in the game for the specific purpose of being entertaining and telling a story, that's what I'm getting here. To me, you're trying to inject your own logic into the narrative to make it look bad. No one was around to hear the exposition, and that's why it happened there, for specific dramatic effect and theatricality, yes, but that's who most writing is done. No more different than Temen-Ni-Gru popping up right down the street from Dante's office (how convenient), the dumbass Cloverfield monster to swat Lady Liberty's head right in front of the main character's apartment (whoooaa did you see that?!), Snake diving into the very same river The Sorrow's corpse happened to be in (of all the rivers in the expansive Russian jungle! Whodathunk?!), or Ventus and Vanitas fighting on a stained-glass floor that shatters, leaving them flying around, fighting amidst glittering shards of glass (Hooodangthat'spurty!). All things are written for a specific, oftentimes theatrical or dramatic effect, especially when it comes to games and movies. DmC is no different. Why are they not allowed to be theatrical, and when the entire setting is perfectly set up to allow for it? No cameras, no people, no eavesdropping demons, that's how it was written. Get over it.

What I'm alluding to is that with a long term terror campaign and picking off collaborators and arch demons alike, Mundas would eventually be forced to come down from the tower to deal with the insurgency, thereby leaving the Hellgate open for attack. If he doesn't have his army to do his bidding, all he can do is throw hissy fits and flip cars over, so he'd need to come sort things in person.

At some point he'd come down away from the Hell Gate, and logically he'd leave the ample amount of protection behind if he did so. He seemingly has an entire police force to do his bidding, along with whatever security is already at his disposal in the tower already. There's also the fact that it was always The Order's plan to try to get Mundus away from the Hell Gate, but they failed so miserably to the point that they had to risk it all on storming the tower, luckily, Kat did some spirit recon to even make that possible. However, the Hell Gate is still pretty important to Mundus, so obviously he probably takes a lot of precautions when he does leave it.

I don't see how you can try to forcefully inject your own brand of logic into scenes that operate perfectly fine without it, but you don't seem to try putting that same logic to use in places where it's so easy to come up with ways for it to work. Maybe it's that whole "only looking at it from a viewpoint that everything it does is wrong," thing I've noticed.

It's a very specific kind of reaction to predict Mundas would have though. Given the powers of horrific torment a demon god has at his disposal, he could have eaten Dante alive, opened a singularity in his liver, drowned him in tar, peeling off his skin and salted his flesh, made him play Devil May Cry 2, anything.

I just know I wouldn't predict he'd have punted Dante out of the window. Unless I knew he'd been a star quarterback at some point.


You didn't predict it, and neither did Dante, thus, things played out the way they did. It's a very specific kind of reaction that is rather common among really ****ed off people. You can complain until you're blue in the face about how it was written that this or that happened, but that's how those things happened, and I've outlined all of why it all works.

You're rather inconsistent in trying to point out flaws, either by questioning the obvious as if it doesn't exist, or by trying to instill your own logic contrary to what already works :/
 
A lot of people have said this already but I personally think this is the reason.

Demons can only use their true power when in Limbo, this is because it's their plane of existence and when they are on it they can be their true self. Phineas said that Nephilim can shift between the realms which I would suggest means they are their true form all of the time.

For example when you are in Limbo and you shoot a regular demon with your pistols they take a lot to kill them, but on the human realm for example they are easier to kill. Maybe this is why, when out of Limbo Demons can be killed as easily as Humans but because Nephilim don't need Limbo or a Hell Gate they can take more damage then most.

When Dante stabbed Vergil at the end you could see he was almost about to kill him, maybe the only real way to kill a Nephilim is to remove the heart and stop the body or to inflict mass damage to the vessel?
 

AlchemistFromEden

Well-known Member
A lot of people have said this already but I personally think this is the reason.

Demons can only use their true power when in Limbo, this is because it's their plane of existence and when they are on it they can be their true self. Phineas said that Nephilim can shift between the realms which I would suggest means they are their true form all of the time.

For example when you are in Limbo and you shoot a regular demon with your pistols they take a lot to kill them, but on the human realm for example they are easier to kill. Maybe this is why, when out of Limbo Demons can be killed as easily as Humans but because Nephilim don't need Limbo or a Hell Gate they can take more damage then most.

When Dante stabbed Vergil at the end you could see he was almost about to kill him, maybe the only real way to kill a Nephilim is to remove the heart and stop the body or to inflict mass damage to the vessel?
true and the whole true power from the demon world was apart of the classic series as well, it was shown in 3 when the demon seal was undone dante started spontaneously entering devil trigger against his own will
 

WorkenOnMaLeft

Well-known Member
well in DMC4 dante killed Echidna and Berial with a shot E&I. besides it was a sniper rifle, can we just assume it was a 50 cal? anyways as you can see in the cutscenes guns are much more powerful than they are in game, for gameplay purposes of course. its really one of those things that shouldnt be giving much thought since you can easily fill in the blanks yourself. like who says its a regular old sniper rifle. maybe demons can be killed in their human form just as easily.
 
well in DMC4 dante killed Echidna and Berial with a shot E&I. besides it was a sniper rifle, can we just assume it was a 50 cal? anyways as you can see in the cutscenes guns are much more powerful than they are in game, for gameplay purposes of course. its really one of those things that shouldnt be giving much thought since you can easily fill in the blanks yourself. like who says its a regular old sniper rifle. maybe demons can be killed in their human form just as easily.
It wasn't a sniper was it? I thought it was an XM8 Assault Rifle.
 
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