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the significance of westernizing devil may cry

Demi-fiend

Metempsychosis
Supporter 2014
Don't agree with that, then well sue me.
I'll see you in court.

But other than that, I agree with everything you said. DMC4 isn't the godsend that most fans claim it to be, nor does it deserve the pedestal they put it on.

After the DMC3 "Style Mod" on PC, nothing else even comes close, in my honest opinion. Nope, not even the "Special" Edition of DMC4.
 

Foxtrot94

Elite Hunter
Premium
I agree on the argument that was brought up earlier, the westernization was done as an attempt to gain more fans. Along with the streamlined and more accessible gameplay. In an attempt to let Devil May Cry out of its relatively niche fan base and make it more mainstream. An attempt to make GOW's numbers. Or at least get closer to them.

They decided to strip out gameplay features and a lot of stylish possibilities that DMC4 introduced and made it the pinnacle of its genre when it comes to stylish combat, like it or not.

However I've got this feeling that DmC was indeed an experiment. They wanted to try that change in tone and gameplay, but somewhat playing it safe by not implementing it in the original series, in case the experiment didn't work out as they hoped. Kind of a backup plan. Which turned out to be a wise decision in the end.

Neither western nor eastern = bad, obviously, that's just a matter of preference. However West is indeed a huge market and they felt they needed to address those complaints of DMC4 being too anime, and that's where what berto said comes in.
But as far as I'm concerned, they decided to address that complaint in a very, VERY risky way. Which kind of backfired on them in the end. And that's where what Wuodan said comes in.

What does the future hold for the franchise? The hell if I know, the state the franchise is in is a mess right now, even messier than what remains of my preys after a good shot of my trusty Plasma Caster.
But I think the wisest thing Capcom can do now is to gain back its core fan base, by developing a couple of games more for the original series.
Even though it seems to me that they are already trying to get back their core fan base, there's quite a bit of original DMC related stuff going on recently.

Anyway, games wise, conclude DMC with a blast, I say. And then why not, resume DmC. I think it will be pretty safe to do it once you properly wrapped up the originals. I think people will accept the radical change in tone and style much easier that way.

And everyone will live happily ever after.
 

WolfOD64

That Guy Who Hates Fox McCloud
Alright, I'm going to dig up facts about this topic before I even smother it with my opinion in the slightest, just for the sake of integrity.

First off, everyone making guesses about Capcom "streamlining" DMC to gain greater sales numbers overseas is absolutely correct. In fact, back in 2010, a Capcom employee made the following statement:

“Devil May Cry 5 is a game that, when started development, this will change a lot in relation to the above. The reason is that, despite the franchise has some very loyal followers, their sales are not particularly high, especially overseas.”
This can be attributed to a great many number of causes, but my guess is that despite the original DMC crew eagerly anticipating the chance to work on another game, Capcom's board of Shareholders were either uninterested in a sequel, or refusing to greenlight it...solely because of the series' sales. Despite DMC4's status as the fastest-selling game in the series, the logic behind that is actually quite reasonable: despite its success, it did not meet sales expectations...probably because the game itself was an expensive project to produce, what with Hiroyuki Kobayashi cranking up the budget limit to make his fantastical cutscenes happen. For better or for worse, the cinematic overload in DMC4 ended up coming with a cost.

But the strategy to reinvent the series with a Western twist did not come from Capcom's Upper Suits, but rather, one employee in particular. Which employee, you ask? Why, the same one who made that financial statement about the series' not selling well overseas: Keiji Inafune., right before he left Capcom in the eye of the Legends 3 development maelstrom.

Now, as for who decided to reboot the series entirely instead of just releasing a streamlined sequel is completely up in the air. According to Ninja Theory, Capcom was very much opposed to making a direct sequel, and pushed them at every corner to make the game as radically different as possible. Designer Alex Jones even stated that him and his team initally wanted to make Dante as close to the original as possible---middle-aged, white hair, red coat and all, with what were probably "4 or 5% alterations"---just so that they wouldn't **** fans off. But every time they would come within an inch of making the game or characters even remotely similar to the originals, Capcom's Japanese Development studio overseeing the designs---again, led by Keiji Inafune---would shut their attempts down...and urged them to make it as different as possible.

So this decision came about because of many factors, not just one...multiple people were involved, and the end result was the product of a downward-bulking snowball of decisions.

Now, with that out of the way, what do I think should've been done with the series?

Well, as I've stated once before, I still think that the reboot was completely and utterly unnecessary. Why? Because DMC4 ended up raising more questions than it answered. I could understand if DMC4 served as some kind of big, concrete conclusion...but all it did was introduce more characters, usher in more plot devices, and explain less and less about either one. And really, the decision to wipe the slate clean and reboot the series was Capcom acting like lazy adolescent high-schoolers using Wikipedia to write their essay for them...which is even more approproate seeing as Capcom not only commissioned an overseas developer to handle DmC, but didn't even bother to give them English access to the MT Framework Engine...because, you know...THAT would've taken some actual work.

As for all the condemning of the "blasphemous westernization DmC", well...I find that accusation downright hilarious seeing as the core of the series was shaped by a plethora of Western influences in the first place. From Dante's attire in the DMC1 concept art, to the initial Gothic atmosphere, to the fact that Dante was originally stated to work and live in America in the manual of the very first game, I'd say that Hideki Kamiya and Team Little Devils had way more Western aspects in mind than Japanese ones. Hell, the only remotely-Japanese things about Dante's conception were his inspiration from the manga Cobra, and his coat color being designed for the sake of Japanese heroic symbolism associated with the color red.

The only real Japanese-type nonsense was when Hideaki Itsuno came back to right the wrongs he committed in DMC2, by overcompensating for Dante's serious tone in that game and making him a bishonen power fantasy in the sequel. And with that change came the complete alteration of the game's lore, feel, tone and emphasis. Gone were the Western influences, gone were the Gothic locales, and gone were any rational or grounded attempts at story-telling: everything had to be over-the-top, hyperstylzed, and flooding with a Toonami series' sense of logic.
All of this spread to DMC4, and was one of the reasons the series got both an anime and a manga series. By that time, the series was more anime than game anyway.

Now does the series need to be as Western as possible? Not necessarily. But having it go back to swan-diving headfirst into bishonen nonsense isn't automatically the solution either. Keep in mind that Japanesey-type stuff can even be grating for Japanese people themselves. Take a gander at the anime-centric Musou ecstasy known as the Sengoku Basara series. Capcom has made half the series and all of its spin-offs Japanese-exclusive, and even THAT series' sales are plummeting.

Anime influences and Japanese-centric approaches to story-telling will not save this series, people. It didn't save DMC4, it didn't prevent Capcom from going ahead with the Western mentality when they chose to reboot the series, and it's certainly not saving other niche hack-n'-slash titles in the same vein like Onichibara and Bayonetta.
 
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Veloran

Well-known Member
Keiji Inafune.

Inafune was the driving force behind Capcom's moves to outsource and westernize their properties back around 2010. Devil May Cry, Dead Rising, Lost Planet, Inafune pushed for all of them to either be handled by western developers or Capcom subsidiaries located in the west, because he considered them to be more "innovative" than Japanese devs. That's really all there is to it.
 

WolfOD64

That Guy Who Hates Fox McCloud
Inafune was the driving force behind Capcom's moves to outsource and westernize their properties back around 2010. Devil May Cry, Dead Rising, Lost Planet, Inafune pushed for all of them to either be handled by western developers or Capcom subsidiaries located in the west, because he considered them to be more "innovative" than Japanese devs. That's really all there is to it.
I can't blame him for having more faith in the Western market. The Japanese gaming market has all but collapsed thanks to consumers' lack of interest in video games over there. Most people would rather just play cheap games on their cell phones than invest in actual games or consoles.

If you think the mobile and casual market in the U.S. is casting a dangerous shadow, you should see how it nightmarish blankets the Japanese market.
 

Demi-fiend

Metempsychosis
Supporter 2014
It didn't save DMC4, it didn't prevent Capcom from going ahead with the Western mentality when they chose to reboot the series, and it's certainly not saving other niche hack-n'-slash titles in the same vein like Onichibara and Bayonetta.
True. One only needs to look at the sales of Bayonetta 2 to see that.
 

Veloran

Well-known Member
I can't blame him for having more faith in the Western market. The Japanese gaming market has all but collapsed thanks to consumers' lack of interest in video games over there. Most people would rather just play cheap games on their cell phones than invest in actual games or consoles.
True, but I really feel he missed the mark in assuming the western market was inherently superior to their own in some way. That in order for Capcom to sell games in the west, they had to be made in the west "for" the west.

It doesn't really make any sense. The DMC series had sold just fine in the west, great even. I don't feel as though it was in any need of being "saved".

True. One only needs to look at the sales of Bayonetta 2 to see that.
Bayonetta 2 has sold pretty well considering it's install base. Better that the first game even, considering it was dropped to bargain bin status really quickly in an attempt to push more units.
 

WolfOD64

That Guy Who Hates Fox McCloud
Bayonetta 2 has sold pretty well considering it's install base. Better that the first game even, considering it was dropped to bargain bin status really quickly in an attempt to push more units.
I think Bayonetta 2 outselling its first entry speaks even more about its niche status, considering the first game was multi-platform, and the sequel was exclusive to the 3rd place console on the market.
 

Veloran

Well-known Member
I think Bayonetta 2 outselling its first entry speaks even more about its niche status, considering the first game was multi-platform, and the sequel was exclusive to the 3rd place console on the market.
Isn't that a positive though? It did better even under worse circumstances.

That still didn't save the series though. :D
Bit premature so say that at this point. They've already talked about doing more with Bayonetta in the future.

Bayonetta 2 didn't do well in Japan.
It did okay. As noted before the Japanese games' market is in the dumps, and Bayonetta 2 still +70K.
 

WolfOD64

That Guy Who Hates Fox McCloud
Isn't that a positive though? It did better even under worse circumstances.
I suppose that's a mild step in the right direction, now that Bayonetta has an audience on a specific console where its first game barely had any. A niche game is going to do better on a niche console.


Bit premature so say that at this point. They've already talked about doing more with Bayonetta in the future.
They'll probably do more Bayonetta on the Wii U, since Nintendo was such a valuable asset in the development of the second game.

Platinum never worries about financial failures, probably because their games tend to undersell anyway. It's Capcom that remains frantic over sales numbers, and establishes dumb policies like the "2 Million or Bust" garbage.
 
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Veloran

Well-known Member
I suppose that's a mild step in the right direction, now that Bayonetta has an audience on a specific console where its first game barely had any. A niche game is going to do better on a niche console.
I'm not sure that logic is entirely sound. What about people that would have bought a sequel, but don't own a Wii-U?
 

WolfOD64

That Guy Who Hates Fox McCloud
I'm not sure that logic is entirely sound. What about people that would have bought a sequel, but don't own a Wii-U?
Well, Nintendo published Bayonetta 2 instead of SEGA, so I believe they will make the sequel as well unless Platinum asks someone else...and the only other console I can think of Nintendo porting it to is the mysterious NX.
 

Chancey289

Fake Geek Girl.
To be exact, I remember reading only about 68,000 units were shipped for Bayonetta 2, and that really isn't ok. You can add at least one more copy bought because I got it not long ago.

Yet, DmC's 1.7 million + 100K sold so far with the DE is the bomb. Dafuq?

.....Ok. :cautious:
 

DragonMaster2010

Don't Let the Fall of America be Your Fall
Last thing I wanna say though;

People seem to be under the impression that with the reboot's exsistence about, it has changed the entire series completely when really that's the farthest from the truth.
DmC may exsist, but you know what else exsist? The DMC4:SE, The Sengoku Basara 4 Dante and Vergil DLC costumes, The Dante/Lady DLC costumes and cat DMC1 Dante costume for Monster Hunters, That stage play of Devil May Cry x Sengoku Basara, Dante and Vergil in Project X Zone 2--all of these and people still say that DmC has killed the classic series, but seem to ignore all this stuff coming out.

Devil May Cry was never dead. DmC was just one iteration of it. the classic series still lived like it was obviously going to, and people bitched over nothing. Devil May Cry is still here, old Dante is still old Dante, the crazy stylish stuff is still in tact, the story didn't change, you all didn't lose a goddamn thing.
meanwhile, I gotta sit here and play the same game for the rest of my life of the the version of Devil May Cry I liked better, because seeing DMC4 as it is makes me hesitant to touch the classic series again. No offense.
 

absolitude

the devil is not as black as he painted
i am now informed.. @WolfOD64 so there are less and less gamer in japan? that could mean bad, really bad honestly.. that's not gonna help

EDIT: hey guys, who designed alucard in LoS2? does he have a DA or social media account? gonna try and ask him to make his version of dante..
 

Moondivider

www.tablehopper.deviantart.com
Premium
Well first of all I would never want to see (No offense to assassins creed fans) Devil May Cry go down the endless milking route like AC, the games would suffer from it due to obvious reasons and the dmc games has enough replayability to last as is with the developers giving the games all the time they need for development. There should never be a rush in making a dmc-game. (Although it took way to long for capcom to give word on the original series after DmC) And seeing as how the SE edition is coming it shows that capcom still listens and cares for the original series so seriously the DMC vs DmC-thing needs to stop because both series may very well continue as it looks now, and everyone can be satisfied. But if the bitching continues, eventually either the reboot or classic series is gonna suffer from it. I say give us a proper wrap-up with DMC first. Then they can continue DmC or whatever they want to do with the series. As is, I want a proper DMC 5, but I also would like to see DmC continue one day.
 
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