The ranting thinking thread

[Demi-fiend]

Ok, you guys know my stance on the gubbermint, so I won't go into detail here.

It's a complex issue, so it's something that should be looked into further before giving any definitive answer.

 

[Loopy]

I mostly agree with what you've said, Loopy. Of course, not everyone with a Masters degree or higher should have children, either. Keep in mind, paying for an extravagant education doesn't automatically mean someone is more worthy than another. There are a-holes in all walks of life, on every rung of the ladder, from the bottom to the top. For some, being able to balance an education, career, and children is some sort of social status crap-in some of those cases, they don't care any more about their child or children than that crack-whore on welfare.

Being educated and having a broader understanding of things is certainly important-I barely made it out of high school, to be honest; there were a lot of factors working against me at the time, and going into post-secondary education is not something I really want, nor can afford. But, I do take the time to learn what I can, from whatever sources I can get my hands on (or sift tirelessly through the internet to find), so I suppose that must count for something.

Not attacking, of course; I got the gist of what you were saying. Just felt I should throw my two cents in.

I know I went rather extreme there, but it is a rant, so it doesn't have to be the most balanced thing ever. I see a problem, and I rant about it from whatever side I feel most passionate about. I've been raised to value education and financial stability as tools for a successful future. Seeing these children living like this makes me so upset. If I didn't care, I wouldn't rant and I wouldn't be volunteering my hours to help them.

My issue isn't with them being poor, it's what's associated with it, what I have seen from these parents and how this negatively affects the children.

I know a university education isn't always essential. My sister surprised us all and left school after her A-levels, got straight A's and is now the manager of a successful multinational, multi chain fashion store at age 21. Her partner, also 21, decided university wasn't right for him and is now being trained to become the next financial director of a multinational company and is only now attending university to achieve that. They're successful, on very good salaries, but they don't have honours degrees, doctorates or master's. So, you're right that university isn't always essential.

I know not everyone is fit enough to have children just because of education, but it sure as heck usually helps the children have a more stable future when the alternative is drug dealing parents, and ones who can barely afford anything for their child. It's setting them up for failure in a lot of cases, and all the other negative things associated with it.
That's what I've seen, so I can't say any different from that. It's not like I'm gloating or think it's funny. I had that rant because I care about the future of those children who deserve so much more.

The children I work with, they nearly all come from backgrounds where the parents aren't educated, and in most cases, don't give two hoots about their children. The ones who try, well, that's all they can do, but for something so important as a child, trying isn't enough. And when a parent is barely able to complete a key stage 2 question sheet with completely the wrong answers, complete with atrocious spelling and grammar, well, of course I'm going to kick off. That incident was pretty much the catalyst for my rant.

I've said before about my friends and their crappy upbringings due to divorce, but they had extremely privileged lives in comparison the children I work with. So I know money and education doesn't automatically mean good upbringing emotionally. But finances do help, there's no denying that. And to be quite glib, at least these parents could afford counselling for their children to resolve any issues that arose from the divorce.

As for my parents, they were awesome. They may have paid for my education, but they're weren't the stereotype of leaving the child with a string of nannies. Sure, I had a nanny, but that was only after my Dad had taken a lot of time off work to be there for me.
When I was older, they rescheduled important meetings to see the school productions I was in, took me on educational outings, sat down and did homework with me, paid for private maths lessons, took a genuine interest in my education, and there was always one of them around, so they spent a lot of time with me.
Now that I'm an adult, we still have a great relationship and I know I was lucky to have parents like that. I don't mean for the money, but for their attitude to life and all the support, financial and emotional that they were able to give me.
Some of my friends weren't as lucky. They had the material things, but the parents were absent either physically or emotionally. That's the other thing that gets me so worked up, but I've ranted about that before.

It's not always a question of which parents from which social background care more about their children, the majority of times, it's about which parents can afford the best for their children. That's just how life works, no matter how unfair I think it is on these children.

Cannot disagree with you more on almost every point.

Sorry, but that's all a bit too Matthew Wright to me and just seems to emphasise the divide between rich and poor and the stereotypes found in both camps.

Still, to each their own.

No need to be sorry. This is a rant, so I wasn't thinking about anyone agreeing or disagreeing, just about venting my frustrations.
But I don't think the TV presenter Matthew Wright is a credible source for anything. He's such
a non entity that he went on that ridiculous I'm A Celebrity Get Me Out show....that should be taken off the air, but TV designed to rot the mind is a rant for another time.

Taking Wright seriously is analogous to Bill O'Reilly being relevant to, or a credible source of, anything. They're blowhard TV presenters who have gained a cult following amongst the ignorant and act more like demagogues who prey on the fears of the stupid. No better than Jeremy Kyle who baits the ignorant and uneducated instead of paying for them to go into meaningful training or education to get them out of the mess they are in. The majority of
TV presenters shouldn't be taken seriously at all, especially when TV is full of rubbish to rot the mind.

The most I can find on Wright is that he thinks any more than two children is irresponsible. The only way I see it as irresponsible is if they can't afford the children and don't or can't take care of them.
I also notice that Wright supports taxing of people who make more money, which wouldn't be a bad thing if the trickle down effect actually worked and people didn't put their money into fraudulent accounts. But, I guess they're only protecting what they earn...debatable depending on which side of the fence one is on.

As for the class divide, what's wrong with the truth? As terrible as it is, that is what is happening, and has been happening for generations.
They may be stereotypes, but there is truth to it. How else did they become stereotypes? No, it's not a universal fact, but there is enough truth in it to make it a stereotype.
I've lived on one side of the divide and I now volunteer and help children on the other. I didn't form my opinions about this inside a vacuum. I rant about what I see and experience around me.
I work with these children, see their parents, and it makes me so mad that these people are having children when they're barely literate, are ill mannered, can't speak properly, feed them junk food, have atrocious grammar; can't help them with homework, can't afford uniform or school dinners, and worst, abuse alcohol and drugs, and have child after child with a string of partners who move in for a few months and then go. That is no life for a child, and should not be defended or supported in ay way, shape or form. These parents need to be given some home truths about how they are running their children for life. They are terrible, unfit parents who should be reported to CPS.

If I really wanted to be stereotypical, I could have ranted that these parents should have tried harder at school and used better judgement instead of ending up with no GCSEs or A levels, and had 3 or 4 children by the time they're the same age as me or younger, then they and their children wouldn't be in such a mess, followed by it being their fault that they are. That would be mean spirited, possibly inaccurate, life doesn't always pan out how we planned it, and it would do nothing to help the children whom I worry about. Thee adults need some home truths about how they are affecting their children, but not like that.

My rant was justified because I see the consequences of this passed on to children who sure as heck don't deserve such a beastly start in life. These children could do so much more if they were given the opportunity, and I wish I could do more for them. I'm hoping my being there can help them succeed, despite the best efforts of their parents not giving a hoot.

The able children have it bad and the less able seem to have it worse. The schools just don't have the resources to cater to SEN children, and they would be much better off in a specialist care respite school where they have the staff and resources to help the child. Unfortunately, many of those are fee paying and are out of reach for a lot of parents, let alone the medical bills and fees for consultations with specialists.

There's a child I give extra lessons to. Just turned 8 and, but they're barely at their P scales level 3. I asked the mother if she could help the child at home, and the response was basically that it was my problem, that's what I was there for, and that she had three other children to take care of and had no time because she was a single working mother, and then had the gall to pass comment on how I spoke 'proper posh like'. :banghead:
What is wrong with these people?! Excuse me for trying to help a child and do something the parent clearly couldn't be bothered to do. Then these parents make rubbish excuses to absolve themselves of parental responsibility. My parents both worked and made time for me. Working is no excuse to effectively neglect a child.

On the other side of the spectrum, there are some very clever children there who will be stifled in the coming years by their parents, parents who can't keep up with them intellectually, don't care about education and can't afford to send them somewhere where they could thrive and make a good future for themselves.
These children would have done so well in the school I went to. It's such a shame to see young talent wasted so early. They could aspire to do and be so much more if only the parents and the school had the tools to help them achieve their potential.

There's no denying that there is a gap between rich and poor, and fair or not, it exists.
But I don't usually refer to it as a rich and poor divide, it's more the 'haves and have nots.'
One of the ways to make that gap smaller is through education. It's extremely important to educate a child, otherwise, what future do they have?
Poorer parents just don't have the financial resources to give their child the best. That's what a parent owes to a child if they are bringing them into the world. A child should settle for no less than that.

If a parent is barely literate and unable to use proper grammar, then what hope does the child have? Money buys education, generally there are expectations to do well and succeed, and the child usually has all their needs provided for, if not by the parents, then by teachers of outstanding quality. There's no denying that money buys education, and through that, opportunities. It's all about giving the best to the child. And if the child from a wealthy family does fail at school, at least they have their parent's money to fall back on. What does the child from a poorer background have if the fail academically?

As you said, each to their own. It doesn't matter that a child is having their future ruined right from the start.

 

[V]

Hope you're not voting for... well anyone in the next election then. They all want to put education out of reach of poor kids. If they haven't already.

Not to mention if you get an education here now, you'll be competing hard not to still end up flipping burgers. It's not gonna benefit everyone. I've got three further education quals, two degrees and a dip and the only way I can make ends meet is to employ myself in this country. XD

Being smart is good, but this country and government doesn't want smart people and they aren't going to encourage it. If there's a gap in supply of educated British people to fill skilled positions they'll import from elsewhere - they already are. Hear about how math teachers are so bad in this country they're gonna ship a bunch in from China or somewhere? Seriously. What country of 70 million people can't scrounge up 30 "good" math teachers? You couldn't make this stuff up.

The only way you're gonna get your wish is by way of revolution, methinks. People can be smart but Brits are too docile for their own good and you can see they way it's going. They've convinced the public already that there are too many "educated people", which translates to indignance that the public foot the loans for "surplus educated" or "junk degrees". Actually what this place needs is a functioning economy built on something other than buying houses. ^^

 

[Demi-fiend]

Indeed, the only way to solve this is through revolution.

However... the British population have been effectively disarmed, thus guaranteeing zero government dissent.

That's no coincidence. All of this has all been carried out according to plan.

"Those who dare win," right?

 

[Loopy]

Hope you're not voting for... well anyone in the next election then. They all want to put education out of reach of poor kids. If they haven't already.

They're all terrible, and, actually, I don't vote. I would if there was a 'none of the above' option just to show my distain for them all.
Each party is as bad as the next. I agree there. It's trading in one bad situation for the next. They're all a pack of liars who make false promises and try to cater to the lowest common denominator just to win votes.

To deny less affluent children the education they need to escape the poverty trap is disgusting. Yet the government is trying to do this, but not in the obvious way.
It's all very well offering free education, but it is clear that there is a gap between state schools and public ones. It's like they planned it to be that way. Make it seem like they care about education, but then deny the funding and resources to the areas that need it most.

The alternative would be to send the children off to vocational colleges to learn a trade. But the government sold off nearly all the industry and factory jobs abroad so there won't be any trade for them to go into.

This country really loves to screw people over if they don't have the means. But, it seems like this is part of a plan to make the country docile and stupid.

Not to mention if you get an education here now, you'll be competing hard not to still end up flipping burgers. It's not gonna benefit everyone. I've got three further education quals, two degrees and a dip and the only way I can make ends meet is to employ myself in this country. XD

However, that doesn't mean an education is completely useless. If one can't read, can't write, can't grasp arithmetic and can't speak properly, then how is one going to survive in the real world? We shouldn't be praising stupidity, fecklessness, child neglect and irresponsibility, and we certainly should be rewarding or encouraging it.

Not everyone should go into higher education because not everyone is capable. Some people just aren't cut out for that. But surely GCSEs and A-levels should be a priority. People need the basics at least, especially when graduates are taking low skilled jobs. Just what are people without degrees doing if graduates are taking their jobs?

However, to be quite blunt, if a society was made up of only academics, then who would clean the toilets and do the other menial jobs? A society needs all types to function, as much as I am loath to admit that some people will spend their lives doing unskilled menial work on minimum wage.

And yet government messed that one up too. They should bring back the technical schools and vocational colleges and send the not so academic people there so that they can learn a trade and make a living later in life. But there isn't the industry for these people to go into at the end, so what is the point?

But as it is, most jobs these days, even secretarial jobs, require a degree. Or when companies are hiring graduates over the less qualified, what then?

When even the most basic jobs are now favouring graduates, what hope do people without degrees have? As you said, even people with degrees are working Mcjobs, so what are the people without degrees doing? At least the people with degrees will have the education to someday move out of those jobs if given the chance. People without degrees wouldn't be able to do that in the majority of cases.

One also has to factor in that this is an island nation with too many people and no industry infrastructure to provide enough jobs. Either immigration is cut back on for a bit, or people need to be encouraged to have fewer children because people are having to compete with so many others for so few jobs.

The industries that breeding and immigration props up are the service industries such as retail, medical, education, job centres, recruitment agencies, and the housing industry, and that is an artificially inflated bubble fuelled by too many people living here, built on the premise that people will breed more than the previous generation and create further demand for those services.

It's a ridiculous way to build an economy on nothing more than a pyramid or Ponzi scheme. No wonder the government is encouraging people to breed unmitigated.

Being smart is good, but this country and government doesn't want smart people and they aren't going to encourage it. If there's a gap in supply of educated British people to fill skilled positions they'll import from elsewhere - they already are. Hear about how math teachers are so bad in this country they're gonna ship a bunch in from China or somewhere? Seriously. What country of 70 million people can't scrounge up 30 "good" math teachers? You couldn't make this stuff up.

How the heck a country can encourage mediocrity, child neglect and low achievement by deliberately engineering it is beyond me. It seems that they want a nation of uneducated and compliant sheep who become dependent on the government because of a reliance on benefits. Then the government can pretty much do whatever they want safe in the knowledge that the people rely on them too much to fight back.

I would add though that teaching just isn't a lucrative enough job and many do not want to deal with abusive children or their equally abusive parents. There are graduates from top universities with first class degrees who went into teaching with the misguided and naïve notion that they could make a difference, but left after a year because it was like fighting a losing battle.
If it wasn't the children being violent, it was the parents; and pupil discipline isn't allowed these days so children rule the schools because teachers would either face angry parents coming in, or false abuse allegations being made.

It's not solely the responsibility of the teacher. If the children do not know the basics of speech, have appalling table manners, or are even incapable of using the toilet correctly, then the teachers are fighting a losing battle and constantly having to play catch up due to the failings of the parents. Then these children hold the rest of the class back because these children need so much more attention or their difficult behaviour makes it impossible for other children to learn due to constant distractions.

It's a multi layered problem that is not just the fault of teacher training, the teachers themselves or the government. Parents have to take some responsibility in this as well. People can't have children and then foist them onto schools without even the basics of behaviour and proper conduct.
It's all well and good going to school, but if the parents don't reinforce the learning after, put the time in and go over lessons with the child, then what is the point? If the parents don't value education, or even the basics, then what hope does the child have?

The only way you're gonna get your wish is by way of revolution, methinks. People can be smart but Brits are too docile for their own good and you can see they way it's going. They've convinced the public already that there are too many "educated people", which translates to indignance that the public foot the loans for "surplus educated" or "junk degrees". Actually what this place needs is a functioning economy built on something other than buying houses. ^^

Pretty much this. They're saying that education is a bad thing, that it gets one nowhere. But if people aren't educated, then we're going to move back to the early industrialisation age with slums and slave workers who have no education and no say, who are at the mercy of their employer. I think we're already there in some places, except we don't have the industry and factories to provide the slave labour jobs anymore because those have been moved abroad.

It's ludicrous to demonise the educated and education while making it more unaffordable, and simultaneously propping up the feckless, ignorant and stupid who in turn breed more of the same. You're right, it is clear where this country is going.

The gap between haves and have nots is widening, and denying education to them is not going to help one bit. It's going to push them down even further, make them more reliant on benefits and then more reliant on any government who will keep those benefits going. Pretty soon the country will be too stupid to even consider a revolution. Then again, a revolution is not without its pitfalls.

Indeed, the only way to solve this is through revolution.

All we need is a guillotine.:tongue: Maybe even an old fashioned stoning or lynching would do the trick. :wink:

 

[Angel]

I just find the apparent lack of compassion startling. Whilst I applaud and support notions of getting people out of poverty, education for all and leaving the best possible future for the next generation, slamming and damning isn't helpful. It's not about glossing over problems or pretending divides don't exist - it's about not passing judgment. You understandably fight from a corner of relative affluence and I respect that - but please understand that when you articulate some of.your views, they can come over as almost elitist. I am not suggesting that is your intent but having lived on both sides of the spectrum I find it very disheartening to see that there are those with the ability and means to make a difference but also seem to pour scorn on those they are helping. It just seeks to demonise.

Don't get me wrong - they can be phenomenally hard nuts to crack. You get abuse before anything else, more often than not. But there is usually a very good reason for such an apparently bad attitude and you will only truly appreciate the whys and wherefores after establishing a relationship. There are of course people who are just plain crappy but to tar all is wrong. And ignorant.

Volunteering is awesome and to be honest, if people like you did not take the time to do it no one else would bother. It's often thankless and you meet people you would otherwise not. I cannot imagine how frustrated you must feel when confronted by some of the situations and people you come across...I'm just saying that regardless of how "abysmally stupid" these parents may seem to you, they are still people and not everyone is what they appear to be on the surface.

 

[V]

Something will happen when the average everyday person can't live by an acceptable standard. Question is what will average people put up with and what is that acceptable standard. That's what determines and catalyses progress for anyone or anything.

So far everyone had put up with the banks being allowed to screw up and remain mostly unfettered (everyone just waiting for the problem to "go away"), and the necessity of the public bailing them out. It's put up with education being turned into a business and a debt ride. It's put up with huge loss of worker's rights in employment, including the "work for nothing" mentality of apprenticeships and exploitation of school leaving kids without experience or immigrants on low wages; and with housing being turned from a necessity into the biggest business in this country which is now becoming so exclusive it's gonna bite itself in the ass again. It's put up with the idea that society as a concept doesn't even exist, and isn't something that needs to be cohesive and managed or it all falls apart. And people are manipulated by the press into believing some pretty blatant untruths. Frankly I think this place is going down and a lot of people can't see why, but simply - mismanagement, short sight and greed. All the things a government is supposed to guard against. XD

Education and some wider sense of responsibility is what guards against this happening, IMO. But either lack of sufficient education, complacency, or just a lack of general decency is to blame. I know quite a few people who don't give a **** about anything but themselves, and they're "educated". But they're still pretty stupid if they think they aren't part of a whole that will sink like a rock if everyone thought like them. A lot of people - educated or not - with grand visions for themselves and not for the country itself. That's the problem; a grand vision of your own ain't worth much if you're living in a technical wasteland. Unless you're rich (insulated) or nuts or whatever.

The education standards here are pretty low, though. People are leaving mandatory education still not able to spell or add up. You don't need further education to be smart, as such, you just need a willingness to work on your ignorance. I don't come from a wealthy family, but it was drilled into my head by them that if I didn't get smart, the system would eat me alive. I owe it to my mother who had a kid at 20 and spent her formative years as a delinquent but who was also intrinsically smart to teach me that. She's now a Royal Society fellow scientist or something and does stuff with crops that hopefully means climate change won't screw us all at some point. My point is that a respect for education is where it all starts, and I don't reckon the UK really has one - not compared to certain other countries who frantically educate their kids. Which doesn't bode well since the best shot this country has for staying afloat or maintaining its relatively high standard of living is to invest in and grow its scientific outputs.

I don't know. I guess the UKs working class ethic is still alive and well, it's just that there isn't going to be a whole lot of work for people to do. The service economy can only go so far, immigration can only go so far. The only way out without taking a hit in living standards (i.e. turning this place third world) is to make this country a leader in technology and science, since most of the industries are dead or prohibitively expensive. But god knows what the government is actually "doing" about this. (Apart from pandering to overseas students for money and selling off essential assets to other countries). Currently they don't seem to have a vision AT ALL for the future, unless it's one that involves selling this place out to others, and it's not in "education good, ignorance bad" mode. I just kinda hope people here can - when it comes to it - see how much standards will have slipped compared to other countries as a result and get angry about that enough to do something about it.

 

[Loopy]

I just find the apparent lack of compassion startling. Whilst I applaud and support notions of getting people out of poverty, education for all and leaving the best possible future for the next generation, slamming and damning isn't helpful. It's not about glossing over problems or pretending divides don't exist - it's about not passing judgment. You understandably fight from a corner of relative affluence and I respect that - but please understand that when you articulate some of.your views, they can come over as almost elitist. I am not suggesting that is your intent but having lived on both sides of the spectrum I find it very disheartening to see that there are those with the ability and means to make a difference but also seem to pour scorn on those they are helping. It just seeks to demonise.

Don't get me wrong - they can be phenomenally hard nuts to crack. You get abuse before anything else, more often than not. But there is usually a very good reason for such an apparently bad attitude and you will only truly appreciate the whys and wherefores after establishing a relationship. There are of course people who are just plain crappy but to tar all is wrong. And ignorant.

Volunteering is awesome and to be honest, if people like you did not take the time to do it no one else would bother. It's often thankless and you meet people you would otherwise not. I cannot imagine how frustrated you must feel when confronted by some of the situations and people you come across...I'm just saying that regardless of how "abysmally stupid" these parents may seem to you, they are still people and not everyone is what they appear to be on the surface.

Now that I can understand.

It is incredibly frustrating and upsetting to have these children tell me about their, quite frankly, shocking home lives. I cannot for the life of me understand how these people get into these situations. It's just completely alien to me and I am trying to understand, but I haven't ever lived like that so it is like being on another planet. I don't mean that in a snobbish way, but it is so different.
There are things I take for granted these children will probably never have and that is the stark reality of it.

I tried not to go into volunteering with preconceived notions and judgements, but what I have seen sadly confirms some of them. I'm not gloating about it or finding it funny that the stereotypes are correct. I'm more shocked and appalled by it than anything. Partly at the parents who behave in this dangerous and reprehensible way, and partly at the government who don't give a hoot about how these people live.

Having said that, there are parents there who try and do the best they can and I am not there to judge them or belittle them. I want to help them to help their children.

I don't do these kind of rants to their faces. It would be unproductive, especially if I'm trying to gain their trust. That is hard enough as it is when the very way I speak sets them off.

A lot of times that does mean that I feel like I'm hitting my head on a brick wall when I'm only trying to get parents to take an interest in the learning, or their child in general, and all they can do is be standoffish, say they don't have time, and treat me like some kind of threat or nuisance. Some of them love their pets, alcohol or drugs more than their children.

I do come across as critical of the parents who deal drugs and shoot up and wilfully abuse or neglect, because that to me is disgusting and an extremely harmful environment for children be in.
I would have the same views about any parents who behaved like that, regardless of their background or affluence.

Unfit parents are unfit parents. They should not be allowed to have even more children when they treat the ones they already have so appallingly.

It not about elitism to me, it's about children being screwed over before their lives have truly begun due to things like that.

And it just so happened that my rant was directed at one side and not the other when I wrote it.
I'm equally critical and scathing of affluent parents who neglect their children, treat them like accessories, take drugs, abuse, have affairs and dump the children into emotional turmoil. I have enough friends recovering from that kind of upbringing to know just how badly those parents can screw up too. The effects are long lasting and the mental scars cut deep.

I do not and will never carry the same critical attitude over to the children I am helping. It is not their fault and all I want to do is help them.
My irateness isn't directed at them; they're a pleasant bunch for the most part and very eager to learn.
I like teaching them and when I have a breakthrough with the SEN children, it is very rewarding. They've gone from scoring zero on tests to scoring 3 or even 6 out of 10 which is a massive improvement. They just needed someone to spend extra time with them and that's something they didn't have before I arrived there.

I find that the more challenging children just need someone to vent to about their home lives. I think that's why they act out so badly and they just haven't been given boundaries or any kind of discipline, or positive attention for that matter.
Sometimes they just need a hug; seriously, that's what actually happened in one instance. Some of these children are deprived of even basic affection at home. I don't know how a parent can be like that.

And if I lacked compassion, I wouldn't even set foot in the places I have been to or even bothered to interact with the children and parents. I wouldn't put up with the swearing or the outbursts of violent behaviour.
Back in the day, those sorts of places and situations would have scared me and I probably would've walked away.
In fact, the teenage me would have labelled them council house scum and treated the whole thing as some sort of joke, a 'povo safari' to make fun of the less fortunate. And believe me, I did not get those ideas from my parents. Actually, I don't know where I got those ideas from.

As it is, I'm there from 7:30 till 17:00, giving up my time for free, doing anything from basic numeracy, correct pronunciation and spelling, to violin lessons, book club and art club, and teaching children as old as 9 what fruit and vegetables are and how to use a knife and fork properly.

That's what I'm doing, and it is disheartening and incredibly frustrating when I put my time and effort in and the parents don't seem to care.
But I'm going to carry on because I hope that I can help in some way and maybe make a breakthrough one if these days. I don't want to think that what I am doing is futile.
I believe people can make something of themselves if they are given the tools and opportunity to do it.

So hopefully that's made my stance clearer and less judgemental. I can only say what I see and that's what I've seen. And I come across the way I do because what I see makes me angry and upset, especially when children are involved.

 

[Angel]

Now that I can understand.

It is incredibly frustrating and upsetting to have these children tell me about their, quite frankly, shocking home lives. I cannot for the life of me understand how these people get into these situations. It's just completely alien to me and I am trying to understand, but I haven't ever lived like that so it is like being on another planet. I don't mean that in a snobbish way, but it is so different.
There are things I take for granted these children will probably never have and that is the stark reality of it.

I tried not to go into volunteering with preconceived notions and judgements, but what I have seen sadly confirms some of them. I'm not gloating about it or finding it funny that the stereotypes are correct. I'm more shocked and appalled by it than anything. Partly at the parents who behave in this dangerous and reprehensible way, and partly at the government who don't give a hoot about how these people live.

Having said that, there are parents there who try and do the best they can and I am not there to judge them or belittle them. I want to help them to help their children.

I don't do these kind of rants to their faces. It would be unproductive, especially if I'm trying to gain their trust. That is hard enough as it is when the very way I speak sets them off.

A lot of times that does mean that I feel like I'm hitting my head on a brick wall when I'm only trying to get parents to take an interest in the learning, or their child in general, and all they can do is be standoffish, say they don't have time, and treat me like some kind of threat or nuisance. Some of them love their pets, alcohol or drugs more than their children.

I do come across as critical of the parents who deal drugs and shoot up and wilfully abuse or neglect, because that to me is disgusting and an extremely harmful environment for children be in.
I would have the same views about any parents who behaved like that, regardless of their background or affluence.

Unfit parents are unfit parents. They should not be allowed to have even more children when they treat the ones they already have so appallingly.

It not about elitism to me, it's about children being screwed over before their lives have truly begun due to things like that.

And it just so happened that my rant was directed at one side and not the other when I wrote it.
I'm equally critical and scathing of affluent parents who neglect their children, treat them like accessories, take drugs, abuse, have affairs and dump the children into emotional turmoil. I have enough friends recovering from that kind of upbringing to know just how badly those parents can screw up too. The effects are long lasting and the mental scars cut deep.

I do not and will never carry the same critical attitude over to the children I am helping. It is not their fault and all I want to do is help them.
My irateness isn't directed at them; they're a pleasant bunch for the most part and very eager to learn.
I like teaching them and when I have a breakthrough with the SEN children, it is very rewarding. They've gone from scoring zero on tests to scoring 3 or even 6 out of 10 which is a massive improvement. They just needed someone to spend extra time with them and that's something they didn't have before I arrived there.

I find that the more challenging children just need someone to vent to about their home lives. I think that's why they act out so badly and they just haven't been given boundaries or any kind of discipline, or positive attention for that matter.
Sometimes they just need a hug; seriously, that's what actually happened in one instance. Some of these children are deprived of even basic affection at home. I don't know how a parent can be like that.

And if I lacked compassion, I wouldn't even set foot in the places I have been to or even bothered to interact with the children and parents. I wouldn't put up with the swearing or the outbursts of violent behaviour.
Back in the day, those sorts of places and situations would have scared me and I probably would've walked away.
In fact, the teenage me would have labelled them council house scum and treated the whole thing as some sort of joke, a 'povo safari' to make fun of the less fortunate. And believe me, I did not get those ideas from my parents. Actually, I don't know where I got those ideas from.

As it is, I'm there from 7:30 till 17:00, giving up my time for free, doing anything from basic numeracy, correct pronunciation and spelling, to violin lessons, book club and art club, and teaching children as old as 9 what fruit and vegetables are and how to use a knife and fork properly.

That's what I'm doing, and it is disheartening and incredibly frustrating when I put my time and effort in and the parents don't seem to care.
But I'm going to carry on because I hope that I can help in some way and maybe make a breakthrough one if these days. I don't want to think that what I am doing is futile.
I believe people can make something of themselves if they are given the tools and opportunity to do it.

So hopefully that's made my stance clearer and less judgemental. I can only say what I see and that's what I've seen. And I come across the way I do because what I see makes me angry and upset, especially when children are involved.

And in turn, that I do understand. My gosh, the first day I stepped foot on a council estate in one of the most impoverished areas of the south east...I was terrified. I lived there for 5 years and what was a scary alien world became one of the most comfortable places for me. I lived with addicts, abusers, whores and illegals - and they were awesome people. Didn't like what they did but my gosh they would help you out in a heartbeat. I saw some heartbreaking things and stuff that made you realise the potential in ALL people, regardless of background or circumstances.

For someone to CHOOSE to step into that world and give what they have is a quality to nurture and be admired. I'm not saying that as lip service - I don't even know you - but from my own personal experience it was the volunteers who helped us most. The people running food banks, clothing donation groups, childcare so we could have an hour a week to feel like a person again...it is invaluable and it is where the real change happens. People remember it. They will remember you - even if they do not seem to care at the time.

I think we both are kind of on the same side, just from different angles.

 

[Vergil'sBitch]

Why are you going to the funeral tomorrow? Oh yeah, because you want to get 'one over' on your brother-in-law that you hate so much. MOST people go to funerals to pay their respects... but not you... fudging dumb a$$.
You really do make me sick. Oh yeah, and if you keep grinding your teeth through the service, you'll be drinking your soup afterwards through a straw...:shifty:

 

[Rebel Dynasty]

Whoa, whoa, whoa...where the hell did you get "your English sucks" from "the dialogue admittedly needs a little work"?

Furthermore, everything else I said before and after that point was praise. -_-; How is it you've had these published, yet you're unable to handle a little critique? I understand that translations can be difficult, which is why I was kind when pointing it out. How did a three line review earn me a four paragraph tongue-lashing about how I "should have the class to be indulgent with this" (this being errors)?

Seriously, wtf?! I have been nothing but kind while reviewing your work...yet, out of the countless comments I've left, you flipped about that one thing?

If it weren't for the fact I like your work, I'd stop reading it, simply on the principle that you just acted like an entitled, spoiled brat, just because I had the proverbial gonads to point out what most everyone else has ignored so far.

Sorry everybody...that kind of sh*t really pi$$es me off. I mean, honestly...

 

[V]

Whoa, whoa, whoa...where the hell did you get "your English sucks" from "the dialogue admittedly needs a little work"?

Furthermore, everything else I said before and after that point was praise. -_-; How is it you've had these published, yet you're unable to handle a little critique? I understand that translations can be difficult, which is why I was kind when pointing it out. How did a three line review earn me a four paragraph tongue-lashing about how I "should have the class to be indulgent with this" (this being errors)?

Seriously, wtf?! I have been nothing but kind while reviewing your work...yet, out of the countless comments I've left, you flipped about that one thing?

If it weren't for the fact I like your work, I'd stop reading it, simply on the principle that you just acted like an entitled, spoiled brat, just because I had the proverbial gonads to point out what most everyone else has ignored so far.

Sorry everybody...that kind of sh*t really pi$$es me off. I mean, honestly...

It's weird, that person recently was saying how they dislike only intolerant commenters. Like actual douches commenting on that manga, because it's one of the most popular on the site, they get some "real" flak I suppose from people who don't care. Guess they can't tell the difference between helpful crit and just plain trash comments. But they're not English speaking so maybe they got the wrong end of the stick. And I agree, that manga is good but it could use better translation.

 

[Rebel Dynasty]

It's weird, that person recently was saying how they dislike only intolerant commenters. Like actual douches commenting on that manga, because it's one of the most popular on the site, they get some "real" flak I suppose from people who don't care. Guess they can't tell the difference between helpful crit and just plain trash comments. But they're not English speaking so maybe they got the wrong end of the stick. And I agree, that manga is good but it could use better translation.

They've gotten flames before? That's most unfortunate; I suppose I could cut them some slack, just in the event they honestly didn't realize what I was saying...I just thought it was overkill on their part to freak out on me for something so simple.

*Sigh* I suppose I could apologize to them, and simply explain it was a misunderstanding, all around. I guess I let my quick temper get the better of me...:blush:

 

[V]

It does get a lot of hits per day, just by averages if I was them I'd expect some flames or something. I don't think you did anything wrong, they totally got you twisted, or just overreacted saying you said the English "sucked". 'Cause you didn't say that at all. I'm kinda surprised they even said it, given the volume of feedback they probably get all round; if I were them I'd expect someone to point out the lacks in the translation. Maybe they were just defending their translator buddy, I dunno.

Either way, what you did was helpful to them. Any editor should have told them the same thing.

 

[V]

Any writers or artists should probably take a note - when you stick your stuff out there for the world to see, expect a few negative comments just "because internet", and good crits are your friend. If someone does bait, don't rise. Just say "thank you for your input " and move on. Looks unprofessional and reflects badly on the author to argue with genuinely nasty comments, I reckon. Which is why you rarely see prof authors doing it (or "reading the comments" probably, lulz).

 

[Shadow]

Any writers or artists should probably take a note - when you stick your stuff out there for the world to see, expect a few negative comments just "because internet", and good crits are your friend. If someone does bait, don't rise. Just say "thank you for your input " and move on. Looks unprofessional and reflects badly on the author to argue with genuinely nasty comments, I reckon. Which is why you rarely see prof authors doing it (or "reading the comments" probably, lulz).

So...I guess I should stop telling reviewers that I'll eat them for dinner if they flame me? *awkward shuffle*

 

[Rebel Dynasty]

So...I guess I should stop telling reviewers that I'll eat them for dinner if they flame me? *awkward shuffle*

Lol, I could just squish you. :laugh:

 

[V]

So...I guess I should stop telling reviewers that I'll eat them for dinner if they flame me? *awkward shuffle*

Well... yeah =p. It's cool to have a rant about it off record, like here. But it does look a bit belligerent if you do it where your work is on display. That's just my view, of course, but I've been in the professional artist circuit a while now and I'm careful what'll damage my rep because my rep is basically my lifeline to more work out there. Just something to note guys and gals, especially if you're aiming for professional some point. Stuff written in haste on the internet kind of sticks around, possibly permanently.

 

[Shadow]

Well... yeah =p. It's cool to have a rant about it off record, like here. But it does look a bit belligerent if you do it where your work is on display. That's just my view, of course, but I've been in the professional artist circuit a while now and I'm careful what'll damage my rep because my rep is basically my lifeline to more work out there. Just something to note guys and gals, especially if you're aiming for professional some point. Stuff written in haste on the internet kind of sticks around, possibly permanently.

Aww. =( Tbh, I just put it at the beginning of fanfics cuz I don't want to sit there, reading about people talking about stuff that has no relevance to the fic or flaming just because I don't support their pairing in the fic. I welcome constructive criticism openly (and I let everyone know that), but when someone just says "you suck" or "go die" I just get really annoyed because there's nothing that can be learned from being told that. At least say what sucks and what I should work on, if they hate the fic that much. I used to be flamed a lot when I first started writing and some of the more constructive stuff really helped me be a better writer, but when it's senseless it's just...ugh. I have too much to do as it is without reading comments about how I should stop writing and die by idiots with their heads up their *sses. >_>

 

[V]

I have too much to do as it is without reading comments about how I should stop writing and die by idiots with their heads up their *sses. >_>

Exactly. These people are a waste of your time, don't bother with them. Save yourself for people who have some legit question or concern about your work, or want an actual conversation in post-kindergarten English.

I'm pretty familiar with the "zomg I h8 this pairing" thing with regards fics (when I used to post them up, many moons ago) and now if I do any fan art, because someone always just has to let you know they don't like the damn pairing. I'd like to say "well good for you, sweetcakes" to a bunch but, there's just no point. Liking pairings seems to be as subjective as finding somebody attractive. And I ain't arguing that with someone, lol. *shudder*