The odd morality.

[Slacri]

So the backstory that's talked about the entire game, is not a flaw? Please tell me more about how you can't tell flaw, from terrible writing.

It's barely talked about. The only real backstory about Dante being abused in orphanages or whatever was mainly through promo material and early trailer. It's not in the game.

Why sugar coat it? Just say you didn't like the writing in the game and stop trying to justify your argument when it was solved pages ago.

I've already said I don't like the writing in the game.

Oky, so by your reasoning of it having no conscious thought and basic emotion, then who cares that Vergil shot it. If it has no concept of life and acts by responding to external stimulus on instinct; then killing it is fine.

Well that would be okay if that's all it could do in life. But it's clearly shown that demons can mature and grow up.

 

[Shin Muramasa]

well she repeatedly asked the baby what they should do and it seemed extremely eager to come out and kill dante

Well that defeats everything I've said except for Lilith's influence. Thanks. . .

 

[Vezild]

How is asking "Hey Dante's not really questioning Vergil on this issue and he's not really much of a good guy." Too deep? I'm not looking that deeply. No, I'm in my first year of medical school right now. But nice guess. So how is saying that a game that initially came off as a tongue in cheek action game with silly pizza censoring and over the top scenes of flying through trailers and then going to baby shooting and then to **** jokes not a tonal upshift? Especially considering this game was heavily marketed on its story and writing and Tameem is one of the people trying to elevate games as art.

I have no interest in being a writer, so I'd agree with that sentiment.

Okay, okay, I am sorry for the age guessing. That was really uncalled for. It's late and I got carried away.

See, now that you put it that way, I can see where you're coming from. The thing is that those questions just don't fit here. They just don't.
All of that tongue-and-cheek...DmC's tone was very upbeat to me. I don't know about you, but I never felt depressed by the disgusting, terrible things shown in the game.
Besides, the way the story works and the writing and whether it is art or not...there, that's all a matter of taste and opinion. Me, I prefer my stories and art and music to be on the raunchier, meaner side. But that's something we can't argue about.

I think we've completely run out of stuff to argue about. Again, I'm sorry for the age guessing. That was uncalled for and immature of me.

 

[Loopy]

Well that would be okay if that's all it could do in life. But it's clearly shown that demons can mature and grow up.

But it's never going to grow up!
At the time it was killed, as you said, it had no idea what was going on, so who cares.

 

[Slacri]

if you're going to critique something, critique it correctly, which you are not doing, you are saying killing a demon child is a moral issue because you have some fantasy about it growing up and for some cliche' reason or another, becoming a good character, which isn't good storytelling at all, or depth

Point out where I've said I actually want this to happen in the story. I don't. I'm saying from Dante's point of view this could of been a very real possibility and gunning him down on the pretense that his parents are bad is immoral.

, them killing off a former boss isn't them being lazy, its literally vergil killing a demon child and then his demon mother, its not tonally inconsistent because it keeps in line with the fact that this game's story is darker and grittier then the previous entries in the titles, instead of perfect characters we get flawed ones, instead of every decision working out some actually do have consequences on the world at large, its a great story for an action game, especially for an action game

It's lazy because it's bad characterization. Dante is presented as the hero and the guy we're supposed to root for. Later he even lets Vergil go. But he's okay with letting kid be shot to death? I don't ask that all heros or protagonists be perfect. I'm fine with flaws, but they have to actually do something with them and make it a point in the story.

It is tonally inconsistent, the very beginning of the game is Dante comedically, impossibly and in a very over the top fashion flying through his trailer, putting on clothes and having ridiculous pizza censoring. It's on the same level as DMC3's opening really. Then we get to baby murder, and then back to dick jokes.

 

[KaizenShio]

Point out where I've said I actually want this to happen in the story. I don't. I'm saying from Dante's point of view this could of been a very real possibility and gunning him down on the pretense that his parents are bad is immoral.
It's lazy because it's bad characterization. Dante is presented as the hero and the guy we're supposed to root for. Later he even lets Vergil go. But he's okay with letting kid be shot to death? I don't ask that all heros or protagonists be perfect. I'm fine with flaws, but they have to actually do something with them and make it a point in the story.

It is tonally inconsistent, the very beginning of the game is Dante comedically, impossibly and in a very over the top fashion flying through his trailer, putting on clothes and having ridiculous pizza censoring. It's on the same level as DMC3's opening really. Then we get to baby murder, and then back to **** jokes.

Once again where in this paragraph does it say the child wanted you dead 24 hrs ago

 

[Slacri]

Okay, okay, I am sorry for the age guessing. That was really uncalled for. It's late and I got carried away.

All fine.

See, now that you put it that way, I can see where you're coming from. The thing is that those questions just don't fit here. They just don't.

I don't want to ask questions, I'm not asking questions about how impractical the stunts were or why Dante suddenly gets time stopping powers out of nowhere. See those things I don't really care about because I accept it as some silly action stuff. The issue with the scene is that it's a complete tone shift and it feels like its grotesque for the simple point of being out there.

All of that tongue-and-cheek...DmC's tone was very upbeat to me. I don't know about you, but I never felt depressed by the disgusting, terrible things shown in the game.

I liked the tongue and cheek stuff. I enjoyed the opening. But when it went to such a strange level and direction I got uncomfortable.

Besides, the way the story works and the writing and whether it is art or not...there, that's all a matter of taste and opinion. Me, I prefer my stories and art and music to be on the raunchier, meaner side. But that's something we can't argue about.

I don't think it's bad because it's raunchy or gritty. I think it's bad because it's stupid and silly and then raunchy and gritty at the drop of a hat.

I think we've completely run out of stuff to argue about. Again, I'm sorry for the age guessing. That was uncalled for and immature of me.

No problem.

 

[Slacri]

Once again where in this paragraph does it say the child wanted you dead 24 hrs ago

I already spoke on this subject.

 

[Loopy]

It's lazy because it's bad characterization. Dante is presented as the hero and the guy we're supposed to root for. Later he even lets Vergil go. But he's okay with letting kid be shot to death? I don't ask that all heros or protagonists be perfect. I'm fine with flaws, but they have to actually do something with them and make it a point in the story.

The death was made a point in the story. Mundus asks why his child was killed. He has to ask Dante twice. Dante doesn't answer. If Dante had got his way, Lilith would have lived and the spawn. It shows Dante does think something of what happened.
He only resorts to taunting Mundus about it to get him out of his office so Vergil can seal the hell gate and 'save' mankind.

Mundus makes a point of getting angry and upset about the death of his child. It humanises the antagonist a little. Though I suspect he only wanted the spawn as an heir, not a child.
That was the point.

 

[berto]

What I don't understand is what that baby was doing in Lilith. It's obviously capable of taking care of itself much better than Lilith is and since it qualifies as a boss there ain't much that can f*ck with it so wasn't it about time to cut the umbilical, to sorta speak.

 

[Slacri]

But it's never going to grow up!
At the time it was killed, as you said, it had no idea what was going on, so who cares.

I realize the analogy I'm about to make is a bit out there because it is real life, but my point is Dante and Vergil don't know their in a game so real world morals should apply to them a bit.

Real life babies don't know anything, they have no clue about the world or what's going on. It doesn't change the fact that killing one is a horrible thing.

 

[Slacri]

But it's never going to grow up!
At the time it was killed, as you said, it had no idea what was going on, so who cares.

I realize the analogy I'm about to make is a bit out there because it is real life, but my point is Dante and Vergil don't know their in a game so real world morals should apply to them a bit.

Real life babies don't know anything, they have no clue about the world or what's going on. It doesn't change the fact that killing one is a horrible thing.

 

[Shin Muramasa]

What I don't understand is what that baby was doing in Lilith. It's obviously capable of taking care of itself much better than Lilith is and since it qualifies as a boss there ain't much that can f*ck with it so wasn't it about time to cut the umbilical, to sorta speak.

It's a mama's boy or girl.

 

[Paexie]

Well that would be okay if that's all it could do in life. But it's clearly shown that demons can mature and grow up.

And have the possibility of either being a little better or far worse than their parents. Seriously, there is a double standard here. You believe the thing deserved a chance to be "born" but it was already feed with a need to be the way Mundus/Lilith is.

Phineas is the only other full demon that is good, yet he instilled the need to kill it. Sparda my have been in love and cared for a life with his family... but he didn't do anything to stop Mundus maybe he was powerless because of the demon gate that made Mundus immortal but still. Demon or not, they are not as simple as black and white and there was definitely more chances of it being evil for the mere fact that Dante and Vergil where going to kill Mundus anyway.

Revenge is a vicious circle.

 

[KaizenShio]

I already spoke on this subject.

Well that is very convenient for you Denounce the inherit value that it and its mother new that it wanted to kill you by saying it didnt know what it was doing to fit your needs hmmm

Edit not fact my bad

 

[AlchemistFromEden]

Point out where I've said I actually want this to happen in the story. I don't. I'm saying from Dante's point of view this could of been a very real possibility and gunning him down on the pretense that his parents are bad is immoral.
It's lazy because it's bad characterization. Dante is presented as the hero and the guy we're supposed to root for. Later he even lets Vergil go. But he's okay with letting kid be shot to death? I don't ask that all heros or protagonists be perfect. I'm fine with flaws, but they have to actually do something with them and make it a point in the story.

It is tonally inconsistent, the very beginning of the game is Dante comedically, impossibly and in a very over the top fashion flying through his trailer, putting on clothes and having ridiculous pizza censoring. It's on the same level as DMC3's opening really. Then we get to baby murder, and then back to **** jokes.

-its a DEMON KID, not a normal child, its like complaining that someone killed the OMEN, its literally along those lines
-how is it bad characterization that dante is not an archetypical hero who makes everything shine with rainbows and cleavage? that's not the tone this game was going for, dante is presented as an rebellious teenager who hides his issues with pizza and ladies in this game, and when he lets those issues come out like when he looks sad that he doesn't remember his mother, its consistent with the tone of the game that no, even though everything is bright and colorful on the surface, that when you look deep that things are not perfect at all, and yes, he's ok with letting his brother go, that's his BROTHER, better yet his twin, while Mundus's spawn was the child of the man who imprisoned his father and literally RIPPED HIS MOTHER'S HEART OUT AND MADE HER WATCH AS HE ATE IT, so making sure that he doesn't reproduce more heart eating demons is a bad thing now? making sure a demon who's powerful enough already that it poses a threat to dante and humanity before its even born is a bad thing? i'm sorry, are we talking about the same series, last time I checked, demons are bad, and letting the antichrist grow up on the notion, "THIS COULD BE FUTURE NERO GUISSSS" is not good storytelling at all, in fact, if they had done what you are suggesting, then it would be lazy writing

 

[Slacri]

And have the possibility of either being a little better or far worse than their parents. Seriously, there is a double standard here. You believe the thing deserved a chance to be "born" but it was already feed with a need to be the way Mundus/Lilith is.

There's no double standard. If the baby grew up and was evil then I wouldn't care if he killed it.

Phineas is the only other full demon that is good, yet he instilled the need to kill it. Sparda my have been in love and cared for a life with his family... but he didn't do anything to stop Mundus maybe he was powerless because of the demon gate that made Mundus immortal but still. Demon or not, they are not as simple as black and white and there was definitely more chances of it being evil for the mere fact that Dante and Vergil where going to kill Mundus anyway.

I'm not saying Sparda is some heroic amazing guy. I'm just saying he was an average person really who just lived a life with his family. Why could the demon baby not do this?

Well that is very convenient for you Denounce the fact that it and its mother new that it wanted to kill you by saying it didnt know what it was doing to fit your needs hmmm​

The baby didn't do anything but show signs of anger really. It never showed any consciousness or any thought. Just basic emotions.​

 

[Paexie]

Real life babies don't know anything, they have no clue about the world or what's going on. It doesn't change the fact that killing one is a horrible thing.

Killing. Is a horrible thing. Who it's being done to doesn't matter. It won't make you better than the other, you know this.

A defenseless kill might be more morbid, but it has defended itself, it was clearly capable of killing Dante.

 

[Vezild]

I think the moral implications might come a bit from faith. I don't know...I'm Catholic. Now, don't go classifying and generalizing, but if I were somehow charged with killing the anti-christ in the name of God, I think I would. So that would put me in Vergil's boots...

By the way, guys, I side more with Vergil than with Dante on the whole what happens to the humans thing...

 

[Loopy]

Dante and Vergil don't know their in a game so real world morals should apply to them a bit.

Real life babies don't know anything, they have no clue about the world or what's going on. It doesn't change the fact that killing one is a horrible thing.

Yes, DmC is a game, but it is created in the real world and should be informed by real world morals and judgements. Using real world morals and judgements; is it right to let a demon baby live who will destory the world with its father? Is one potential life greater than the lives of the world?

Killing can be justified in certain circumstances. Tell me, if Lilith and Mundus' spawn was gorwn up and went on a killing spree, it would be fine to kill it then, right?
Like when Mundus destory the city it is okay to kill him because he is killing many lives.