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The odd morality.

Vezild said:
You are constructing a too-deep analysis. Now, I can't ask you what age you are for the sake of privacy and respect, but I will guess you are in high-school...possibly a junior or senior. You're using rhetoric wrong.
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How is asking "Hey Dante's not really questioning Vergil on this issue and he's not really much of a good guy." Too deep? I'm not looking that deeply. No, I'm in my first year of medical school right now. But nice guess.
Take a creative writing class first, and then maybe you can talk about "tonal correctness". And after that, learn where and when certain tones and themes can be used.
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So how is saying that a game that initially came off as a tongue in cheek action game with silly pizza censoring and over the top scenes of flying through trailers and then going to baby shooting and then to dick jokes not a tonal upshift? Especially considering this game was heavily marketed on its story and writing and Tameem is one of the people trying to elevate games as art.
But for now, let me just say, thank goodness you're not a writer in any of my games or movies.
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I have no interest in being a writer, so I'd agree with that sentiment.
 
Slacri said:
Oh okay, so Dante isn't that sort of risk taker. But in the end he lets Vergil leave even after Vergil tried to kill him and let it be known he wants to take over the world. So it's perfectly fine to kill someone on the basis that you don't like their parents and that maybe they might do something in the future, but killing someone who just tried to kill you and is going to try to take over the world isn't worth it.

Again, lazy writing.
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I don't know. The baby attacked him on instinct or it might be smart enough and fed enough by Lilith's attitude to Dante and his family. I mean no one here knows how all demons mature, right?

Killing Face reminds me of Emperor Tachyon from Ratchet & Clank and Jake Muller from Resident Evil. So we have two characters whose race/family were killed by another race/family. Now one was taken in by the other and treated like a decent being, not what it was and part of. While the other lived as a mercenary and met his father's killer. One ends up trying to take revenge and the other forgives. We don't really know what Killing Face could have done, would it have taken a path of revenge or forgiveness. We can't assume it is totally evil. What we can know is that when it came out it attacked Dante. Whether out of instinct for survival or because of what Dante is to Lilith and Mundus that is up to debate.
 
Vezild said:
You are constructing a too-deep analysis. Now, I can't ask you what age you are for the sake of privacy and respect, but I will guess you are in high-school...possibly a junior or senior. You're using rhetoric wrong. Take a creative writing class first, and then maybe you can talk about "tonal correctness". And after that, learn where and when certain tones and themes can be used.

But for now, let me just say, thank goodness you're not a writer in any of my games or movies.
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THANK YOU, seriously tired of people who DON'T WRITE STORIES trying to say that a story with depth is lazy because of one thing, and it seriously makes me cringe when he says that dmc4 had tonal consistency
 
I've already explained why it being a demon isn't really an issue. The only defense against this seems to be "But Mundus and Lilith were bad!" To which I always reply that killing someone because you don't like their parents isn't okay.
and ALSO you keep wanting to leave this out... THe baby in the last 24 hours tried to kill you
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I sincerely doubt it had any real control.
 
Shin Muramasa said:
I don't know. The baby attacked him on instinct or it might be smart enough and fed enough by Lilith's attitude to Dante and his family. I mean no one here knows how all demons mature, right?

Killing Face reminds me of Emperor Tachyon from Ratchet & Clank and Jake Muller from Resident Evil. So we have two characters whose race/family were killed by another race/family. Now one was taken in by the other and treated like a decent being, not what it was and part of. While the other lived as a mercenary and met his father's killer. One ends up trying to take revenge and the other forgives. We don't really know what Killing Face could have done, would it have taken a path of revenge or forgiveness. We can't assume it is totally evil. What we can know is that when it came out it attacked Dante. Whether out of instinct for survival or because of what Dante is to Lilith and Mundus that is up to debate.
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well she repeatedly asked the baby what they should do and it seemed extremely eager to come out and kill dante
 
AlchemistFromEden said:
THANK YOU, seriously tired of people who DON'T WRITE STORIES trying to say that a story with depth is lazy because of one thing, and it seriously makes me cringe when he says that dmc4 had tonal consistency
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I'm not a writer and I don't pretend to be. I can still critique a writing though. What was tonally inconsistent apart from DMC4? The characters were consistent and apart from Nero's rage scenes nothing stood out to much.
 
I sincerely doubt it had any real control.
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Oh yes it did. Lilith was having a conversation with it about doing things to Dante, and it responded by moving around pretty violently.
Then there's the end of the mission where the dmeon baby is moving around so much that Lilith has to talk to it to calm it down. From the way she talks to it, there is some kind of sentience in there.
 
Loopy said:
Oh yes it did. Lilith was having a conversation with it about doing things to Dante, and it responded by moving around pretty violently.
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It demonstrated very basic emotion and no real conscious thought, I don't think that qualifies as control.
 
Slacri said:
I've already explained why it being a demon isn't really an issue. The only defense against this seems to be "But Mundus and Lilith were bad!" To which I always reply that killing someone because you don't like their parents isn't okay.

I sincerely doubt it had any real control.
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Did you freaking see how eager it was to actually kill when it was inside her? Idk about you man, but that can be no son of good.
 
Shin Muramasa said:
I don't know. The baby attacked him on instinct or it might be smart enough and fed enough by Lilith's attitude to Dante and his family. I mean no one here knows how all demons mature, right?
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Well yes, that's my point. On instinct and raw emotion. It couldn't really think.
 
Slacri said:
No, I want a game to stay tonally consistent and not have very strange and morally questioning things our heroes do and then forget it. You see, I'm not complaining that DMC3 or DMC4 was some heathen because well, he never just let someone gun down a pregnant demon or something stupid.

He let Nero get sucked up by the savior and watched his brother fall off a cliff.

I don't want a perfect hero. I'm perfectly fine with a flawed protagonist. I really enjoyed Spec: Ops the Line. You know why? Because the flaws were apart of the character and the plot made a point of bringing up those flaws. New Dante isn't some flawed interesting character. He's just badly written.
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So the backstory that's talked about the entire game, is not a flaw? Please tell me more about how you can't tell flaw, from terrible writing.

Why sugar coat it? Just say you didn't like the writing in the game and stop trying to justify your argument when it was solved pages ago.
 
It demonstrated very basic emotion and no real conscious thought, I don't think that qualifies as control.
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Oky, so by your reasoning of it having no conscious thought and basic emotion, then who cares that Vergil shot it. If it has no concept of life and acts by responding to external stimulus on instinct; then killing it is fine.
 
Loopy said:
Oh yes it did. Lilith was having a conversation with it about doing things to Dante, and it responded by moving around pretty violently.
Then there's the end of the mission where the dmeon baby is moving around so much that Lilith has to talk to it to calm it down. From the way she talks to it, there is some kind of sentience in there.
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and besides that baby been in the womb for about 10 years I seen mundus and it playing jump rope with the umbilical cord on their backyard
 
Slacri said:
It demonstrated very basic emotion and no real conscious thought, I don't think that qualifies as control.
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Oh god... for real? You are going to delve here again. A baby... that wants to kill qualifies it having "basic emotions". Ok. Not a monster at all.
 
Slacri said:
I'm not a writer and I don't pretend to be. I can still critique a writing though. What was tonally inconsistent apart from DMC4? The characters were consistent and apart from Nero's rage scenes nothing stood out to much.
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if you're going to critique something, critique it correctly, which you are not doing, you are saying killing a demon child is a moral issue because you have some fantasy about it growing up and for some cliche' reason or another, becoming a good character, which isn't good storytelling at all, or depth, them killing off a former boss isn't them being lazy, its literally vergil killing a demon child and then his demon mother, its not tonally inconsistent because it keeps in line with the fact that this game's story is darker and grittier then the previous entries in the titles, instead of perfect characters we get flawed ones, instead of every decision working out some actually do have consequences on the world at large, its a great story for an action game, especially for an action game. And then to say that they should have talked about it, when kat says, THIS.IS.YOUR.ONLY.CHANCE. is completely ridiculous, i'd much rather have them playfully conversing about who's better looking and who's smarter then talking about something that's not even a moral issue in the first place
 
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