The Fine Line of Change

[Demi-fiend]

Pretty much this ^^
In the real world, don't expect to be 'rewarded' with a girl just because you are 'nice' or pass a test.

Yep, even diffusing a bomb or saving the world does not mean you get girls lining up around the block to date you. That's just a teenage fantasy. :lol:

If you're an ass or unlikable, no matter what you do, no matter how heroic, girls won't touch with a long pole.

Hm. :ermm:

"Food for thought."

I already knew about all this, it was just the way you said it that set off my "thought process".

 

[aoshi]

That sounds really stupid...one of the main reasons a game has a single player or story mode is to reach the end of it. If getting to the end of the game isn't a main goal for the player, then why did they bother even making an ending? Why was there a story they want us to see through to the end? Why not just make it all Bloody Palace all the time. Hell why does Bloody Palace have a top floor?! If not as a goal to get to! Why not let it keep going indefinitely?!

Why even bother suffering through the challenges put forth in the game as you progress? Why am I even bothering to play this game? It's not like anyone is forcing me to play this, so I shouldn't really complain about the content therein...

I cannot believe that you're whisking away complaints of the Dante retreading by saying what equates to "Well, man...no one is forcing you."

It's blowing my f#cking mind right now.

Why don't I tell IncarnatedDemon to quit his bitchin' about the final boss in DmC? Since...y'know...no one is forcing him to fight the final boss, so he can't hate on it :/

You are missing the point i was making in earlier post. Replaying through missions through higher difficulties is the same as backtracking missions by playing as dante. The difference is enemy patterns are different and aggressive on higher difficulties but when played as dante, the character played itself behaves differently to enemy patterns. So playing through levels as dante is jus as similar as playing higher difficulty with same platforming sections and level design. So why complain on backtracking when playing higher difficulties with the same level design.

Defending that you are not forced to play higher difficulties is as subjective as completing the story mode. The game does not end with completing jus story mode on normal difficulty. If you can choose to not play higher difficulties, you can as well choose not to play backtracking missions as dante, well the reason being the level design and bosses are the same to you.

Here's a question, If dante were to have different enemies and bosses, would that not mean a different bloody palace needs to be developed cuz dante's bosses need to be played differently than nero?

 

[LysseC]

You are missing the point i was making in earlier post. Replaying through missions through higher difficulties is the same as backtracking missions by playing as dante. The difference is enemy patterns are different and aggressive on higher difficulties but when played as dante, the character played itself behaves differently to enemy patterns. So playing through levels as dante is jus as similar as playing higher difficulty with same platforming sections and level design. So why complain on backtracking when playing higher difficulties with the same level design.

Defending that you are not forced to play higher difficulties is as subjective as completing the story mode. The game does not end with completing jus story mode on normal difficulty. If you can choose to not play higher difficulties, you can as well choose not to play backtracking missions as dante, well the reason being the level design and bosses are the same to you.

Here's a question, If dante were to have different enemies and bosses, would that not mean a different bloody palace needs to be developed cuz dante's bosses need to be played differently than nero?

Just a little consideration about backtracking vs difficult modes.
I think the difference can be caught as follows.
When I am told "This game X has, say, 20 different missions", what I expect is that I am going to see 20 different locations/grounds. But backtracking makes it so that I do not see 20 different grounds.
On the other hand, if someone says "In this game you have 10 different missions and then you'll play them another time with thougher enemies", I don't expect to see 20 different locations.
I can agree that changing the character the player is gonna use can do for a differentiation, and make the game not completely repetitive, but the point is slighlty different. The point is how the repetition is presented. Let's say that difficulty modes, as opposed to backtracking are a little more... honest way to present repetition?

 

[aoshi]

Just a little consideration about backtracking vs difficult modes.
I think the difference can be caught as follows.
When I am told "This game X has, say, 20 different missions", what I expect is that I am going to see 20 different locations/grounds. But backtracking makes it so that I do not see 20 different grounds.On the other hand, if someone says "In this game you have 10 different missions and then you'll play them another time with thougher enemies", I don't expect to see 20 different locations.

Not necessarily. If its a platforming game, yeah i would want different locations. But DMC is hack n slash game. And the context of events happening in DMC 4 is fortuna. Jus as context of events happening in DMC 3 is temen-ni-gru. We did revisit some floors in temen-ni-gru. Also the platforming sections of dante did not involve any DB mechanics, so i don't think there was a 100% repetition of replaying levels as dante cuz we did not use DB. Yes, there was revisiting of locations but i think we did revisit floors in Temen-ni-gru(DMC 3) as well.

 

[LysseC]

Not necessarily. If its a platforming game, yeah i would want different locations. But DMC is hack n slash game. And the context of events happening in DMC 4 is fortuna. Jus as context of events happening in DMC 3 is temen-ni-gru. We did revisit some floors in temen-ni-gru. Also the platforming sections of dante did not involve any DB mechanics, so i don't think there was a 100% repetition of replaying levels as dante cuz we did not use DB. Yes, there was revisiting of locations but i think we did revisit floors in Temen-ni-gru(DMC 3) as well.

I just wanted to point out the difference between backtracking and different difficulties, but I never meant to place a bad judgement on DMC4 because of this. But since you were asking what difference there was between backtracking and difficulties, well, I just threw my two cents in.
And I agree that in a hack'n'slash game backtracking represents way a minor problem than in platforming games, for very obvious reasons.

 

[SpawnShooter]

Not necessarily. If its a platforming game, yeah i would want different locations. But DMC is hack n slash game. And the context of events happening in DMC 4 is fortuna. Jus as context of events happening in DMC 3 is temen-ni-gru. We did revisit some floors in temen-ni-gru. Also the platforming sections of dante did not involve any DB mechanics, so i don't think there was a 100% repetition of replaying levels as dante cuz we did not use DB. Yes, there was revisiting of locations but i think we did revisit floors in Temen-ni-gru(DMC 3) as well.

Yeah DMC3 had much more backtracking than DMC4, they tried switching it up a bit towards the end by saying the tower had "transformed" but really this just meant some small cosmetic changes and the rooms led to different places.

People exaggerate the backtracking in DMC4 imo, or at the very least it didn't feel so bad to me. It's only 5.5 misssions and they are changed up in a few ways. Hell mission 14 has the same "type" of backtracking DMC3 had (rooms leading to different places) and the castle had the cosmetic changes present in DMC3. DMC4s environments were also much more diverse than DMC3 and had more "rooms" in total. Im still interested to do a comparison between DmC and DMC4 to find out which has more individual rooms/areas.

In response to the topic title, I agree there is a fine line when it comes to changing/evolving a franchise. DMC wasn't changed however, it was replaced. It's a big difference and while some prefer the replacement, others don't. There's no "afraid of change" it's simply we don't want to see something we enjoy ended by something we don't. There are some who unfortunately see that as irrational.

 

[AlchemistFromEden]

Seriously Dragon:
Dante cared close to as much as Nero cared for Kyrie by end of DmC.

Did Kat and Dante kiss? No.
But i said that by end of DmC Kat and Dante was around same level of romantic closeness as Nero and Kyrie in beginning.

Here is things i took noticed:
- Dante told Kat "I liked it rough" and looked at her (indication of writers wanting them to be romantically together?).
i make jokes like this all the time with my female friends, doesn't mean i wanna be with them
- Dante wanted to save Kat and didnt want to put her in danger. And when he realized it was a lost cause he told her to not resist. And he got angry when she got shot.
normal reaction when it comes to your friends
- During car driving Kat asked Dante "Will you stick through to the end?" he said "You count on it". I'd argue Kat was a factor to Dante changing his opinion about fighting for humans, other factor was Vergil.
that line can go into the "we'll always be friends right" category of story telling
- During Vergil speech Dante pointed out how strong Kat was as a human.
not romantic
- And at ending you see a tender moment with Kat touching his cheeks.
yea, friends do that too
Seriously if all that is not a clear indication that Kat and Dante was around same level as Nero and Kyrie at beginning of DMC 4 then i dont know what is.
you're right, you don't......bazinga

all of those things you listed are what two people who are close friends do too

 

[IncarnatedDemon]

Tameem will end this discussion. But here is some answers from web about how some people perceive when someone touches their cheeks:
http://www.kgbanswers.com/what-does-it-mean-when-a-boy-touches-your-cheek/5093284
http://www.chacha.com/question/if-a-guy-touches-your-cheek-does-he-like-you
http://ph.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20111109211657AA3UT4N

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20110502184350AA5LOSl

The importance of the face is obvious, and that’s why we rarely let anyone touch it. A stranger on the subway can touch our hand, but we won’t let him touch our face, and everybody instinctively knows this. If a man touches you on your cheeks or any other part of your face, it’s a sign he desires to be closer to you, even if he is masking it in a neutral gesture like removing an eyelash. If he wasn’t interested in you, he would probably point it out verbally, and not go ahead and touch you.

http://youqueen.com/love/what-does-it-mean-if-a-guy-is-touching-you/


I am not saying that Kat being nice to Dante is because she likes him. They are friends afterall. But in my opinion at least the writer SEEMS to be hinting at romantic affection with Kat touching Dante's cheeks.

And as the links i posted above, many people perceive that touching of cheeks is kinda "he or she may like you and want to get closer to you".
So my perception of Kat touching Dante that way doesn't seem far fetched.


But i really would like to see the source where Tameem said that Kat isn't a romantic interest for Dante. If Tameem has said that then my opinion is invalid. But it's also important to note how one words that:

Kat isn't romantic with Dante in DmC 1
Kat isn't a romantic interest in DmC 1
Kat is not a romantic interest for Dante in DmC serie

Again i would love to see that source so i can read it So if anyone knows of where to get it post it.


EDIT:
More people who think Dante may be romantically into Kat:

Dante eventually starts to care about Kat in a somewhat romantic way it could be possible that Dante has some romantic feelings for her which I can't blame him for she does look good in those short shorts.

http://www.gameinformer.com/games/devil_may_cry/b/user_reviews/archive/2013/01/24/dmc-review.aspx

 

[GF9000000Returns]

Let it be
Let it be
Let it be
Let it be

Speaking words of wisdom, let it be.

 

[Loopy]

EDIT:
More people who think Dante may be romantically into Kat:

[Dante eventually starts to care about Kat in a somewhat romantic way it could be possible that Dante has some romantic feelings for her which I can't blame him for she does look good in those short shorts./QUOTE]
Yes, and those are people who find Kat hot and want to date her themselves, so of course they are going to project their on feelings and fantasy onto that scene.
This reminds me of Avatar fandom with all the Zuko should be with Katara because she touched his face while they were stuck in a cave. Apparently that touch was ZOMYGAWH IT'S TWU WUB!

That's not how it works in real life. In the case of Dante and Kat, it would be expected that they would be close because of what they have been through, but romantically would be unlikely. A touch does not always mean romance. That's the kind of mistake teenagers and even some adults make.


http://www.gameinformer.com/games/devil_may_cry/b/user_reviews/archive/2013/01/24/dmc-review.aspx

 

[IncarnatedDemon]

Never mind that, how do you know Lilith ordered the strippers to follow Dante to find out where he lived. And that Dante paid money to stripprs for having sex with him?

 

[TWOxACROSS]

You are missing the point i was making in earlier post. Replaying through missions through higher difficulties is the same as backtracking missions by playing as dante. The difference is enemy patterns are different and aggressive on higher difficulties but when played as dante, the character played itself behaves differently to enemy patterns. So playing through levels as dante is jus as similar as playing higher difficulty with same platforming sections and level design. So why complain on backtracking when playing higher difficulties with the same level design.

Because there's a difference between higher difficulties and being forced to completely retread Nero's entire journey as Dante in order to reach the conclusion of Nero's actual journey. You literally cannot complete the game and fight the final boss with Nero without having to play as Dante and backtrack all the way through the game.

The complaint is about the laziness and the lack of originality of it all, not the difficulty.

Defending that you are not forced to play higher difficulties is as subjective as completing the story mode. The game does not end with completing jus story mode on normal difficulty. If you can choose to not play higher difficulties, you can as well choose not to play backtracking missions as dante, well the reason being the level design and bosses are the same to you.

Again, playing on higher difficulties is different from actually completely a game. To see through the single player mode the devs put in the game in order for you to experience all the different levels and enemies by forcing you to go completely backwards through everything with a different character is the laziest form of backtracking and "play as a new character" feature I've ever seen. A single player game "ends" when you've completed the singe player mode, you can go back and play it as many times as you want, but you're always going to have to deal with that sh!t backtracking.

It's no different than being annoyed with game padding like having to fight Master Copies in old Mega Man games (or even friggin' Metal Gear Rising). OH! Sh!t, I forgot! DMC4 has that too! They make you play that stupid-ass dice game again, where you can be forced to fight the bosses of the game again before you can confront the final boss!

Here's a question, If dante were to have different enemies and bosses, would that not mean a different bloody palace needs to be developed cuz dante's bosses need to be played differently than nero?

I don't see what the point is - I'd love that for DMC4. I would have loved for the dev team to not have taken the easy way out with having to playable characters. Not when they previously had a game on a less-powerful system that had two full-fledged characters with their own story modes of the same length. Instead, we got the half-assed "here's the new guy" who doesn't get any other weapons, and here's the old guy, but we split up the campaign between them.

It would have made the variety between the characters more apparent, and how they fight their unique enemies. It also would have been a much more interesting campaign to see what Dante was doing around the city during Nero's playtime, instead of passing the controller to Dante for half the game.

All in all, the problem I have with what you said is that it still boils down to you saying that "nobody is forcing you to play through the entirety of the game, so you don't have the right to complain about what in it."

Sure...jus' lemme spend my hard-earned money on games and then stop playing them when I reach a point in them that I don't agree with. That's the responsible thing to do.

 

[Loopy]

Never mind that, how do you know Lilith ordered the strippers to follow Dante to find out where he lived. And that Dante paid money to stripprs for having sex with him?

Maybe not Lilith, but something in the club was putting those messages on the walls like 'follow him' and 'track him'. Something wanted those girls to go with him just long enough for the hunter demon to be on his trail.

Maybe he paid, maybe he didn't. But usually you pay girls like that for their services, that's just how it works at a club. Or maybe they liked him enough to go with him. Or maybe they just went with him for free so that he could be tracked? It's up to specualtion.

 

[IncarnatedDemon]

Ima look at the cutscenes again cause nowhere did i get impression the strippers were after killing Dante. Though i noticed he had scars when he woke up.

 

[Loopy]

Ima look at the cutscenes again cause nowhere did i get impression the strippers were after killing Dante. Though i noticed he had scars when he woke up.

I didn't mean kill him. But there were messages on the wall saying to follow him and the security cameras.. So I figured it was something to do with those girls going to where he lived just to leave a trail for the hunter demon. I think there's a demonic message on the road as well when Dante's in the car with the girls?

 

[TWOxACROSS]

Tameem will end this discussion. But here is some answers from web about how some people perceive when someone touches their cheeks:
http://www.kgbanswers.com/what-does-it-mean-when-a-boy-touches-your-cheek/5093284
http://www.chacha.com/question/if-a-guy-touches-your-cheek-does-he-like-you
http://ph.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20111109211657AA3UT4N

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20110502184350AA5LOSl


http://youqueen.com/love/what-does-it-mean-if-a-guy-is-touching-you/


I am not saying that Kat being nice to Dante is because she likes him. They are friends afterall. But in my opinion at least the writer SEEMS to be hinting at romantic affection with Kat touching Dante's cheeks.

And as the links i posted above, many people perceive that touching of cheeks is kinda "he or she may like you and want to get closer to you".
So my perception of Kat touching Dante that way doesn't seem far fetched.


But i really would like to see the source where Tameem said that Kat isn't a romantic interest for Dante. If Tameem has said that then my opinion is invalid. But it's also important to note how one words that:

Kat isn't romantic with Dante in DmC 1
Kat isn't a romantic interest in DmC 1
Kat is not a romantic interest for Dante in DmC serie

Again i would love to see that source so i can read it So if anyone knows of where to get it post it.


EDIT:
More people who think Dante may be romantically into Kat:



http://www.gameinformer.com/games/devil_may_cry/b/user_reviews/archive/2013/01/24/dmc-review.aspx

You're looking way too far into this...with a bunch of bullshit from around the 'net by people who want to think a certain way to make themselves feel better. A caring hand on the cheek doesn't have to mean "I want to bang you," especially as a friend consoling another through a difficult period.

As I mentioned to you before, I found out my family was losing the house we lived in for ten years that my father literally built with his own hands (carpenter, yo) and I couldn't keep myself from crying the next day at school when someone had made a joke about me being too poor to buy lunch. I said "Yes, I'm so poor I'm losing my house." The two girls I sat with at my table both hugged me tightly as I cried. They rubbed my back, and cradled by head. These are totally things that someone romantically interested in you could do to be affectionate, but neither of these girls wanted on my junk - one of them even had a boyfriend. I never dated these girls, nor did we ever have feelings for each other. They were simply consoling me through a difficult time, because they were good friends to me.

Dante had just fought with his only family, and once again had doubts about what he was, where he fit into the world. Dante was left and betrayed by his own flesh and blood, and he was rightfully in a pretty woeful place. Kat was there to console him, she was his friend through everything, and she was there to try and make him feel better. Love need not apply.

The world of love is not black and white. There are a multitude of gray areas that can mean everything and nothing.

Let it go~

 

[TWOxACROSS]

Maybe not Lilith, but something in the club was putting those messages on the walls like 'follow him' and 'track him'. Something wanted those girls to go with him just long enough for the hunter demon to be on his trail.

Maybe he paid, maybe he didn't. But usually you pay girls like that for their services, that's just how it works at a club. Or maybe they liked him enough to go with him. Or maybe they just went with him for free so that he could be tracked? It's up to specualtion.

Dante is popular at the club. Those ladies probably weren't working for anyone, and I don't really think Dante paid them either. Prostitutes get paid for sexing people up. Strippers and scantily-clad waitresses just do what they want. That night...it was Dante.

 

[GF9000000Returns]

Ima look at the cutscenes again cause nowhere did i get impression the strippers were after killing Dante. Though i noticed he had scars when he woke up.

-__- He been having these scars.

Anyway...

Yeah DMC3 had much more backtracking than DMC4, they tried switching it up a bit towards the end by saying the tower had "transformed" but really this just meant some small cosmetic changes and the rooms led to different places.

People exaggerate the backtracking in DMC4 imo, or at the very least it didn't feel so bad to me. It's only 5.5 misssions and they are changed up in a few ways. Hell mission 14 has the same "type" of backtracking DMC3 had (rooms leading to different places) and the castle had the cosmetic changes present in DMC3. DMC4s environments were also much more diverse than DMC3 and had more "rooms" in total. Im still interested to do a comparison between DmC and DMC4 to find out which has more individual rooms/areas.

You are missing the point i was making in earlier post. Replaying through missions through higher difficulties is the same as backtracking missions by playing as dante. The difference is enemy patterns are different and aggressive on higher difficulties but when played as dante, the character played itself behaves differently to enemy patterns. So playing through levels as dante is jus as similar as playing higher difficulty with same platforming sections and level design. So why complain on backtracking when playing higher difficulties with the same level design.

Defending that you are not forced to play higher difficulties is as subjective as completing the story mode. The game does not end with completing jus story mode on normal difficulty. If you can choose to not play higher difficulties, you can as well choose not to play backtracking missions as dante, well the reason being the level design and bosses are the same to you.

Here's a question, If dante were to have different enemies and bosses, would that not mean a different bloody palace needs to be developed cuz dante's bosses need to be played differently than nero?

I guess you guys are right, maybe we don't need to go through all the backtracking. That's what made DMC4 a lost cause to some of us now. But I sorta agree with yall that DMC3 had backtracking too, and DMC1 (just a bit), but they weren't as bad as DMC4, I mean you start with Nero and then end with Dante by shooting all the bosses. That tells me that Capcom cared too much about what the fans think about Nero and shows how bad the DMC story can get. And what the heck does playing in higher difficulties have to do with backtracking?

Like I keep on saying over and over again; games nowadays need to have a balance between its features, it can't just be about the gameplay all the time.

 

[aoshi]

Because there's a difference between higher difficulties and being forced to completely retread Nero's entire journey as Dante in order to reach the conclusion of Nero's actual journey. You literally cannot complete the game and fight the final boss with Nero without having to play as Dante and backtrack all the way through the game.

The complaint is about the laziness and the lack of originality of it all, not the difficulty.

It's part of the deal. Look , DMC 3 had backtracking as well. Keep complaining all you want. It is'nt such a big deal.

Again, playing on higher difficulties is different from actually completely a game. To see through the single player mode the devs put in the game in order for you to experience all the different levels and enemies by forcing you to go completely backwards through everything with a different character is the laziest form of backtracking and "play as a new character" feature I've ever seen. A single player game "ends" when you've completed the singe player mode, you can go back and play it as many times as you want, but you're always going to have to deal with that sh!t backtracking.It's no different than being annoyed with game padding like having to fight Master Copies in old Mega Man games (or even friggin' Metal Gear Rising). OH! Sh!t, I forgot! DMC4 has that too! They make you play that stupid-ass dice game again, where you can be forced to fight the bosses of the game again before you can confront the final boss!

*yawns*

I don't see what the point is - I'd love that for DMC4. I would have loved for the dev team to not have taken the easy way out with having to playable characters. Not when they previously had a game on a less-powerful system that had two full-fledged characters with their own story modes of the same length. Instead, we got the half-assed "here's the new guy" who doesn't get any other weapons, and here's the old guy, but we split up the campaign between them.

May be you should decide the estimates on wat should be developed and how less of an effort it would take to implement it. Mean while, i will play with wat capcom decides to implement.

 

[Demi-fiend]

I'm just gonna quote "David R" (the author of the article I posted down below) here:

http://unrealitymag.com/index.php/2013/04/09/when-dumb-ideas-turn-into-quality-entertainment/

"At the end of the day, there really needs to be a reason for making and watching these things. It can be a character, a theme, a message, or something else entirely, but movies — even dumb ones — are at their best when they actually have something to say."

"And if they don’t, then bad things happen."


Yeah, I said it. Devil May Cry 4 was about nothing. At least 3 attempted to have a story (a complex relationship between brothers -- while still kind of old, had a slightly interesting (yet still rather vague) way of presenting said relationship).

Don't even get me started on DMC1. Generic all-powerful demon planning on taking over the world was played-out... even back in 2001.

Devil May Cry 5 would have turned out with a story just as bad as 4, if not worse.

But it seems like that's what the audience wants.

Go ahead. Take your sacred fifth entry in your hallowed series.

I'll be here playing other action-adventure games with stories that are actually worth a damn. -_-

One that actually has a fully-clothed female protagonist with a normal figure.