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The Fine Line of Change

Terrutas

Well-known Member
I guess I was in the wrong then for wanting gameplay in my movies and books. No wonder no one took my criticism seriously when I'd discuss a movie and say lack of interactivity ruined the experience.

It all makes sense now. If I wanted to play a game I'd play a game.
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This is an evolving medium T. Games have the capacity to tell stories that no other medium can, and it's wrong to outright state that you shouldn't look for story in games.

That said, It isn't the primary draw of this franchise or even this genre on the whole, and that the way DmC put a very expensive development focus on it was a poor move. It's not that it couldn't have been done well, it's more that it wasn't what the game needed to become a success.
Oh ****. People are disagreeing with me. Welp, time to play the "muh opinion" card!

I don't know, I mean I like Final Fantasy and other games that have amazing stories that just suck you in, but I still think that when it comes to action games story should be focused on a lot less than gameplay. I'm not necessarily saying that "oh story is a complete waste of time and is generally unappealing and stupid", I'm saying that sacrificing gameplay for story in this genre is really, really stupid. And from what I can see, DmC has clearly done so where as DMC has done the opposite.
 
Oh ****. People are disagreeing with me. Welp, time to play the "muh opinion" card!

I don't know, I mean I like Final Fantasy and other games that have amazing stories that just suck you in, but I still think that when it comes to action games story should be focused on a lot less than gameplay. I'm not necessarily saying that "oh story is a complete waste of time and is generally unappealing and stupid", I'm saying that sacrificing gameplay for story in this genre is really, really stupid. And from what I can see, DmC has clearly done so where as DMC has done the opposite.

JRPG's and RPG's need stories. Because as much as I love the genre it's really the story that drives the games. Not the gameplay...But I guess there's some exceptions. Just saying if Final Fantasy VII didn't have a story I'd probably think the game wasn't worth my time.

Funny though. In my eyes Metal Gear Solid is the only series that can be a cinematic experience. Probably because when the 3rd game came out (Metal Gear Solid) that's always been it's thing.
 

Terrutas

Well-known Member
JRPG's and RPG's need stories. Because as much as I love the genre it's really the story that drives the games. Not the gameplay...But I guess there's some exceptions. Just saying if Final Fantasy VII didn't have a story I'd probably think the game wasn't worth my time.
Well yeah, that's why I used them as an example and gave an example for an action game that delivered one of the best experiences gameplay wise, but not so much if at all story wise (God Hand).
 
Well yeah, that's why I used them as an example and gave an example for an action game that delivered one of the best experiences gameplay wise, but not so much if at all story wise (God Hand).

God Hand's cut scenes were glorious though. I get depressed when I play it because I doubt there would ever be anything like that again in a long time. It's a damn shame the cheesiness wont sit well with some people.
 

Terrutas

Well-known Member
God Hand's cut scenes were glorious though. I get depressed when I play it because I doubt there would ever be anything like that again in a long time. It's a damn shame the cheesiness wont sit well with some people.
Oh my god, so true.

I can barely sit through the ending. Because it's like funny, but it also kills me inside to think there will most likely never be a sequel.
It hurts.. :<
 

Macabre

Your Friend and Mine
I don't know, I mean I like Final Fantasy and other games that have amazing stories that just suck you in, but I still think that when it comes to action games story should be focused on a lot less than gameplay.

View attachment 575

Is it too much to ask for both?

Even in an action game the way you interact through your character is the most powerful way a player can embrace the narrative and become part in the story the game is trying to tell. The methods you decide to use in defeating enemies, even in the most mindless of action games, can be used to tell the story without it getting in the way of deep and enjoyable gameplay.

Metal Gear Rising is far, FAR from perfect, but one element I like about it is how the stealth system works. Raiden's moveset and the way he handles is not particularly conducive to stealthy gameplay, and the game mostly rewards you more for ignoring stealth altogether so you can have bombastic and gory sword fights. Yet at the same time, his comrade at mission control encourage him to play stealthily, chastising the player for rushing in when you could dispatch enemies cleanly and humanely through silent takedowns.

The main thrust of the plot is that Raiden is becoming conflicted between his desire to help people and his desire to kill worthy adversaries, so the gameplay reinforces that theme. It's more compassionate to painlessly execute your enemies, but as the player you partake in the game because you crave challenging combat against overwhelming odds. In order to ultimately succeed in defeating World Marshal, Raiden's chances are greatly improved if he hones his skills and upgrades in battle, so his internal conflict is expressed as part of the game mechanics.

With a bit of inventive design, even games as silly as Rising can make you a part of the plot even as you control the action.
 

Terrutas

Well-known Member
View attachment 575

Is it too much to ask for both?

Even in an action game the way you interact through your character is the most powerful way a player can embrace the narrative and become part in the story the game is trying to tell. The methods you decide to use in defeating enemies, even in the most mindless of action games, can be used to tell the story without it getting in the way of deep and enjoyable gameplay.

Metal Gear Rising is far, FAR from perfect, but one element I like about it is how the stealth system works. Raiden's moveset and the way he handles is not particularly conducive to stealthy gameplay, and the game mostly rewards you more for ignoring stealth altogether so you can have bombastic and gory sword fights. Yet at the same time, his comrade at mission control encourage him to play stealthily, chastising the player for rushing in when you could dispatch enemies cleanly and humanely through silent takedowns.

The main thrust of the plot is that Raiden is becoming conflicted between his desire to help people and his desire to kill worthy adversaries, so the gameplay reinforces that theme. It's more compassionate to painlessly execute your enemies, but as the player you partake in the game because you crave challenging combat against overwhelming odds. In order to ultimately succeed in defeating World Marshal, Raiden's chances are greatly improved if he hones his skills and upgrades in battle, so his internal conflict is expressed as part of the game mechanics.

With a bit of inventive design, even games as silly as Rising can make you a part of the plot even as you control the action.
Simply put, no.

I made it perfectly clear that I wouldn't mind a good story, but I'd rather have good gameplay over story in this genre.
But as Marionette mentioned, some games need good and immersive story to be good. I think that action games however do not.
Though I wouldn't mind a good story.

So basically, I'm not disagreeing with you I just pretty much have different preferences I guess.
 

Macabre

Your Friend and Mine
Funny though. In my eyes Metal Gear Solid is the only series that can be a cinematic experience. Probably because when the 3rd game came out (Metal Gear Solid) that's always been it's thing.

Emulating cinema has always been part of Metal Gear's identity, but more importantly it also pioneered use of gameplay as part of it's narrative. Within the games the characters often react to your behaviour if they consider it amoral, certain conversations can only be triggered by doing certain actions, and the integral mechanics reinforce the plot the cinematics convey. 3 is a game about being alone in a foreign land without resources, so as part of the gameplay you have to feed yourself and tend your wounds self-sufficiently (In much the same way I wish New Tomb Raider had...). There's ways of interacting with the world to discover that you can miss after dozens of play throughs, and it shows how your character is inventive, quirky and cunning. Ever tried crawling around a corner with the crocodile mask on to surprise a guard? :D

4 made a mechanic of your character's fragile psychological state, and thus you have to consider Snake's mental state with every action you take. Peace Walker introduced the Battle Cry mechanic that not only provides players with an intuitive way to communicate without voice chat, but also reinforces the sensation of camaraderie between them.

I'm just gushing at this point. I love Metal Gear.

Well yeah, that's why I used them as an example and gave an example for an action game that delivered one of the best experiences gameplay wise, but not so much if at all story wise (God Hand).

God Hand has a plot that is perfectly suited to itself. It puts you in a mindset of a wacky cartoon where anything can happen and frequently does. It doesn't get in the way of proceedings, and always compliments the proceedings. I can't honestly think of a way you could change the plot without destroying the experience the game is trying to provide for you.

It's not like the original Resident Evil, where poor translation and bizarre voice acting undermined the tension the gameplay provided. No disrespect to the almighty Barry-sama, of course.

View attachment 576

So basically, I'm not disagreeing with you I just pretty much have different preferences I guess.

My point is that you don't necessarily have to have one or the other. They aren't mutually exclusive concepts.
 

TWOxACROSS

Hot-blooded God of Guns
Premium
No. Both have traversing through area of context which is fortuna in DMC 4 and temen-ni-gru in DMC 3. Fortuna is much bigger than temen-ni-gru and diverse. I don't know if you have even played DMC 4. Nero's missions involve platforming sections with devil bringer mechanics. When played as dante, those platforming sections were absent and only those missions which did not require DB traversal were played.

You're really not understanding what I'm saying. Things like the castle on Mallet Island (swear it had its own name, but I can't remember it) and Temen-Ni-Gru were great with their backtracking because it's a location in which you see many things that you can't yet do anything about as you progress through the story. As I said, the puzzles and riddles of the old DMCs were firmly rooted in remembering locations and certain setpieces. As example, early on you find a statue with a specific relief, it gives you a riddle pertaining to what it wants, and then there's nothing you can do at the present time. Then later on in another place, you find something that could work in that statue's relief, and you have no other leads on how to progress, so you backtrack to that statue, and lo and behold, the item works on the statue and opens your way to progression! That's the best kind of backtracking - and some people still don't like it.

DMC4 had a small amount of that classic backtracking, but literally going backwards through each area as Dante, fighting the same enemies and bosses, is not the kind of backtracking that people are really okay with. Playing as Dante was peachy-keen, but they really just supplanted the character into Nero's locations (much like they did with Vergil in DMC3) and made you go backwards. Like...straight up backwards, from the Savior's Cradle to the Opera House with everything in between. No puzzles or riddles to have fun with either, because all you're doing is taking items out of stuff Nero put in them.

It's the laziest form of "backtracking" in any DMC because it's not the same as the standard set by the series. It's really rather subpar by regular standards, too.

Also, i can't stress the fact that DMC is a hack n slash game with emphasis on combat and fighting enemy patterns than traversal as in platforming games. You jus sound desperate to win an argument. Please give up.

What in the hell is your point, or for that matter, your problem? So because DMC's focus is on combat, the standard of backtracking and puzzle-solving the series was also known for makes it excusable to a lazy Dante reverse implant for half the game?

It's great we got to play as Dante and whatnot, but the fact that they did literally nothing to make his progression from area to area entertaining, like new enemies, bosses, or puzzles. Fighting the same old enemies that most can be addressed in the same manner as they were as Nero isn't as exciting as if there were new enemies only Dante could face.

Again , sounding desperate. Try harder.

How 'bout instead of acting like an arrogant prick you continue to contribute to the discussion you started.

You were defending yourself as to being forced to complete story mode in DMC 4. As i said before, DMC 3 had backtrackin as well and this time with different platforming sections. You're jus arguing on subjective thoughts that "i am forced to complete DMC 4 with backtracking" when DMC 3 had backtracking. Please stop wasting my time.


No, I'm clearly explaining to you how the backtracking in DMC3 is different to the entirety of the lazy implementation of Dante in DMC4 where nothing was done other than going backwards and being a new character.

Being forced to go completely in reverse isn't backtracking like in DMC3. Hell, even DMC3 made you go back up Temen-Ni-Gru from the bottom floor, but managed to make the second trip incredibly different from the first. There's nothing worth applauding about DMC4's, other than letting you play a new character. Although it would have been less insulting if they gave Dante his own complete full campaign, where he follows a similar path as Nero, but with different enemies, puzzles, and bosses, instead of taking up half the game to play as Dante doing nothing but going backwards and fighting nothing we hadn't already fought.

The much hated DMC2 did it...why couldn't the much lauded DMC4 :/

I was also challenging your stupid claim of "no one is forcing you to play, so you can't complain." The developers included the single player story as the main feature - it's the only thing that you can play right outta the box. Obviously they want you to complete it. Especially since you need to complete it to get things like Bloody Palace and whatnot. If DMC was really only about combat, then all they'd have is Bloody Palace; they wouldn't bother with animating story cutscenes and even different areas with puzzles.

Two different matters. I've laid them out, and there's really nothing more to be said.

But go ahead, just *yawn* again. You're the one wasting time by not addressing the arguments you brought upon yourself

Drop the attitude, I doubt anyone finds it cool that you can act like a smug asshole on the interwebs.
 

SpawnShooter

This partys getting crazy
If DMC was really only about combat, then all they'd have is Bloody Palace


Man I would love that, especially if they focused more on weapons and styles/gameplay or something similar to the Rachet:Gladiator game. They could do that and just call it a sequel to DMC2 going through the levels of hell.
 

Terrutas

Well-known Member
Man I would love that, especially if they focused more on weapons and styles/gameplay or something similar to the Rachet:Gladiator game. They could do that and just call it a sequel to DMC2 going through the levels of hell.
Careful, you might blow his mind saying that gameplay matters!
 

TWOxACROSS

Hot-blooded God of Guns
Premium
Man I would love that, especially if they focused more on weapons and styles/gameplay or something similar to the Rachet:Gladiator game. They could do that and just call it a sequel to DMC2 going through the levels of hell.

I'd still be interested in a Bloody Palace PSN/XBL game, where you just choose one of several characters, and just fight up through an infinite number of floors, fighting bosses from all across the series. You just fight, get Orbs, get better, keep fighting, and get higher in the palace.

I'd take that as a last hurrah.
 

SpawnShooter

This partys getting crazy
I'd still be interested in a Bloody Palace PSN/XBL game, where you just choose one of several characters, and just fight up through an infinite number of floors, fighting bosses from all across the series. You just fight, get Orbs, get better, keep fighting, and get higher in the palace.

I'd take that as a last hurrah.


I would certainly lap that up in a sec, still waiting on that DMC game that has all the weapons/styles of the series.
But I'm also a real big fan of the characters as well, I'd like to see another party with the whole cast again. The more fan service the better! :)
 

Angel

Is not rat, is hamster
Admin
Moderator
I know I'm late to the party but I will not be wanting to see any more of these personal attacks/insults being thrown around here.

Or the poor attempts at sarcastically putting people down - which, by the way, is SO not working.

And I totally don't get the whole "Macabre=Moses" thing here...wut?

Anyway, carry on, pigeons.
 

Cabbage Detective

Cabbages <3
I'd still be interested in a Bloody Palace PSN/XBL game, where you just choose one of several characters, and just fight up through an infinite number of floors, fighting bosses from all across the series. You just fight, get Orbs, get better, keep fighting, and get higher in the palace.

I'd take that as a last hurrah.
I would play the sh*t out of it
 

Demi-fiend

Metempsychosis
Supporter 2014
I know I'm late to the party but I will not be wanting to see any more of these personal attacks/insults being thrown around here.

Or the poor attempts at sarcastically putting people down - which, by the way, is SO not working.

I was trying to respond (after being spoken to in the first place) in a way that would get the others to back off. Looks like I didn't do so well, in that regard.

I'll try to show more restraint. It's just that it's really hard to do when people are constantly following you around.

And I totally don't get the whole "Macabre=Moses" thing here...wut?

I'll admit that I had thought moses had made another account and was playing innocent.

But I see now that he isn't so, mea culpa. It's just that my patience had run out with smug pseudo-intellectuals (at that time -- I'm ok now). So, now I'm no longer responding to said party anymore.

Anyway, carry on, pigeons.

Will do.

I've already said what I've had to say regarding the fact that action games can (and probably should... at least in some cases like the Arkham and Darksiders series) have good stories and great gameplay that's almost, if not just as good as DMC4.

I see no reason to pick one over the other unless you're the developer who made "Mark of the Ninja" and "Shank" and need to only focus on the gameplay itself due to lack of funding. And even then, they managed to make a decent story out of it.

Certainly better than DMC4, anyway. :ermm:

Addendum:

That, and the "blind-logic" defense:

Saying that DMC4 actually had a better story in some regards than DmC (it didn't, in any regard -- you should watch the DMC4 cutscenes again if you don't believe me) really just got under my skin.

Gameplay, I can understand -- but that can be changed. The story, not so much. Not without retoconning or having another reboot entirely, anyway.

I just can't understand how people can think the DMC4 is better than the Arkham series or Sands of Time.

It's like they refuse to see even the possibility of any other current-gen action game being better than DMC4 (or Bayonetta). Surely you must know the frustration in dealing with people like that.

I still shake my head at that word -- overrated -- when used to describe action games out there with better stories and gameplay that at the very least is just as good as DMC4.

But I'm not responding to them anymore. It's obvious now that some people only see what they want to see, and nothing else.
 

wallenb

Humanoid Typhoon
I'd still be interested in a Bloody Palace PSN/XBL game, where you just choose one of several characters, and just fight up through an infinite number of floors, fighting bosses from all across the series. You just fight, get Orbs, get better, keep fighting, and get higher in the palace.

I'd take that as a last hurrah.

Not for 60 dollars though

and since the only BP i ever got on DLC was free, i would expect nothing less.

i would drop a buck or two for characters though
 

EllDawn

Well-known Member
If anything the rematches in 4 were an improvement on DMC1, because the different movesets presented by the two protagonists meant you could approach the battles with them in entirely different ways. I'm still not fond of the conceit, but I still found it gratifying to use Trickster and Royal Guard on the same bosses that I had to rely on Table Hopper and Devil Arm to get by.
Considering how predictable they were in 4 when it came to the second time around, that doesn't say much for DMC. The only thing that made it different was who you were fighting as. You still knew what attacks to prepare for. I think the only boss that DMC didn't include something new with the repeats was Nelo Angelo, though I can't really remember. I didn't really like fighting them again, either. It was worse with 4 where it was all the same. There weren't any surprises. It would have been better if they'd adjusted their attacks to Dante so it wasn't so predictable.

Edit: On the subject of an action game needing much of a story, I'm going to give two examples of action games that had more game-play than story and really didn't do well. Chaos Legion and Beast Rider. They both still had a story, but it was hardly there. It was all fighting with few breaks.

I do play games for the story, though DMC became more therapeutic when I was in a bad mood. Games with a good story become more enjoyable than movies because you're more involved, you're going through it. It's not as much as with books where it's all playing in your mind. But having an action game with a great story would be perfect. It becomes more of a driving force to see what happens next when you have a really good story in the game.
 
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