The Fine Line of Change

[TWOxACROSS]

Not for 60 dollars though

and since the only BP i ever got on DLC was free, i would expect nothing less.

i would drop a buck or two for characters though

Oh no, it definitely wouldn't be $60 affair. That's why I mention it being a PSN/XBL game.

 

[Zey]

I've already said what I've had to say regarding the fact that action games can (and probably should... at least in some cases like the Arkham and Darksiders series) have good stories and great gameplay that's almost, if not just as good as DMC4.

I see no reason to pick one over the other unless you're the developer who made "Mark of the Ninja" and "Shank" and need to only focus on the gameplay itself due to lack of funding. And even then, they managed to make a decent story out of it.

Certainly better than DMC4, anyway. :ermm:

Addendum:

That, and the "blind-logic" defense:

Saying that DMC4 actually had a better story in some regards than DmC (it didn't, in any regard -- you should watch the DMC4 cutscenes again if you don't believe me) really just got under my skin.

Gameplay, I can understand -- but that can be changed. The story, not so much. Not without retoconning or having another reboot entirely, anyway.

I just can't understand how people can think the DMC4 is better than the Arkham series or Sands of Time.

It's like they refuse to see even the possibility of any other current-gen action game being better than DMC4 (or Bayonetta). Surely you must know the frustration in dealing with people like that.

I still shake my head at that word -- overrated -- when used to describe action games out there with better stories and gameplay that at the very least is just as good as DMC4.

But I'm not responding to them anymore. It's obvious now that some people only see what they want to see, and nothing else.

For my defense...I never said that DMC4 has a better story or is a better game overall. Since you actually say that "some people only want to see what they want", I hope you're talking about you there, instead of reply to the valid points, you just bashed MGR DLC, something unrelated to the discussion. I don't need to talk about the rest of your post because I already throw my arguments and most of them are unresponded,

But well, you never put some effort on actually respond to them, even being a bit disrepectful, with that I can say I'm done with the discussion.

 

[Goldsickle]

If people would just realize that a game company can do whatever the **** they want with their own intellectual property, then they would have less worries and problems in the future.

Fanboys need to stop deluding themselves into thinking that they have some sort of ownership or rights over a game franchise just because they bought one-two games from that franchise in the past.

I remember talking to one deluded fanboy who tells me that "a franchise belongs to it's fans".
What an idiot.

 

[Demi-fiend]

I remember talking to one deluded fanboy who tells me that "a franchise belongs to it's fans". What an idiot.

Amen to that.

That person was just mad because like most fanboys, they can't take action and make a game of their own (not even a 2d flash game). So they cover up their inadequacy and utter uselessness by crying like a little ponce and making things miserable for everyone else.

I can say I'm done with the discussion.

Good. I wasn't talking to you in the first place, anyway.

 

[Chancey289]

I don't think it doesn't know how to develop, but rather didn't really try.
I also think that being consistent with a story isn't really hard and you'd have to actually try in order to screw it up. Which they did, but then people didn't really play DMC1,3 or 4 for the story now did they? At least most of the people I know who played it haven't.

Besides, I don't get what all the fuss is about all over story. This is a game and you should seriously be focusing more on gameplay than story. If you're looking for a good story, there are visual novels, books, novels, movies and so forth.
I'm not saying there shouldn't be any story whatsoever even though God Hand is a prime example of how a game really should be, and DooM. I'm saying there's no point in working on a story more so than gameplay and then calling it a game. If that makes sense.

So we just shrug of something that is up to critique in the final product just because you want to? I don't play Devil May Cry for the stories or characters really. I stopped caring about that stuff a long time ago but if it's still awful then it's not exempt from criticism.After all, if it really wasn't about the story or characters then why do the people who hate DmC so much spend so much time bashing that aspect of the game? With every Devil May Cry game I usually let the cutscenes play out my first go round and with any replay runs I hit the skip option. And every game in the series allows you to skip the cutscenes.

That skip button and I have become good friends.

Thing is DMC 2,3, and 4 have more emphasis at telling a story and they just suck at it. I don't think it's wrong to talk about how bad it was if it is bad. And if the writers themselves really just have a lack of faith in their own ability to improve on something they always screwed up on then I don't think that deserves any praise. It's like asking someone to do a job and because he told you he wasn't trying you let him off the hook even if the finished product was bad. Yet the guy who actually tried to do the job is getting more flack than the dude who sat back and did nothing?

Again I'm not really jumping in to any Devil May Cry expecting the characters and story to be amazing. It would be nice if they really did improve on that part but I'm seriously just playing this game to slash and shoot demons. That being said, I'll still tell you how bad it is if it really is bad. Even though I have fun playing DmC if anyone ask me about the story my usually response, "it's just as dumb as the older stories so basically the same thing." Same thing goes with the previous titles. I'm not going to give it more praise for some unknown reason.

 

[Chancey289]

This is an evolving medium T. Games have the capacity to tell stories that no other medium can, and it's wrong to outright state that you shouldn't look for story in games.

That said, It isn't the primary draw of this franchise or even this genre on the whole, and that the way DmC put a very expensive development focus on it was a poor move. It's not that it couldn't have been done well, it's more that it wasn't what the game needed to become a success.



Yep. Tam is a professional, so he takes on a professional responsibility. Well done.

Anonymous rubes on the internet can't be held accountable for their actions, so of course they aren't. Businessmen taking home a five digit salary are accountable for acting like morons, because it's their job to provide their product with a mature veneer.

Of course everyone should be as mature as possible, but people who are in fact professionals in the public eye have their professions to think about when it comes to writing childish tweets.



And there's that excuse again. It doesn't matter how gay the person stating it is; you're comparing Dante to a film about gay romance as if it's a bad thing, purely because he looks like a cowboy. It's still homophobic, it's still stupid, and it's still Ninja Theory tier wit, as they are happy to demonstrate. I know you are better than that.



The storylines and characters in Classic DMC were intentionally simplistic and mostly illustrated through gameplay. There was room to expand upon them certainly, but it was completely functional for the overall experience to work properly. Dante was ludicrous as a character because the gameplay encourages the same eccentricity in the player, and insodoing it provided a character and an interactive experience that no other game has. Devil May Cry invites you to become a person who is larger than life, who loves to engage in impossible and audacious combat inside gameplay and out, whereas most heroes in this genre are happy to simply kill their enemies as efficiently as possible or simply rack up an adequate combo counter. In that way the gameplay serves the characterization in a more intuitive way than any deadpan monologue or dull cutscene can, but in DmC it's actually internally contradictory: DmC Dante no longer cares about being Crazy, so the Style Rating system creates ludonarrative dissonance. Why should I be rewarded for performing ambitious combos and over the top fighting when my character only cares about killing the enemy as quickly as possible?

DmC Dante's character is two note: He hates Demons and he's protective of Kat. This is in no way an improvement on the simplicity of the previous games, and it's execution undermines it's capacity to be considered on an even keel with the old games. What the previous games conveyed to the player with actual gameplay and the occasional brief cutscene, DmC barely gets across with over an hour of non-interactive content and voiceovers, and it's interactive set pieces which attempt to tell it's story are indistinguishable from normal gameplay.

This is the problem with thinking that simply adding more cutscenes and dialogue instantly makes a videogame's story better. Gameplay too has to be integral to the narrative, otherwise you're just pausing a movie to shoot ducks.

And please stop ending posts with "end of story" for the love of God. It makes you look like you can't tolerate other people's opinions on things, and that's unbearably pathetic.

Bottom line, if Devil May Cry is to survive as a franchise, it has to understand why other titles are beating it's sales and find the common ground which will allow it to compete with them. Inundating the game with PLOT isn't the solution, as demonstrated by DmC's feeble sales compared to DMC4, God Of War: Ascension and Metal Gear Rising. End of story.

An excuse? Yea we called him that in a joking manner. Are we really a bunch of homophobic idiots? No, we aren't. I don't need you to come in and tell me how me and my friends discuss silly things amongst each other. None of us get butthurt and uptight talking about stuff. Are you going to say I'm being racist too when I can go up to my black friend and say "wassup my *N-word*" and he responds with the same thing?

We just don't take stuff like that seriously. It's not like we go overboard but that's just how cool we are with each other. Even if we jokingly toss around stuff like that it is quite obvious we don't mean it and aren't really like that. I apologize if it comes off differently because I just kind of forget I'm not talking amongst my friends. If you really have an issue with it then fine I won't say stuff like that.

I just don't care if they made fun of Dante. I make fun of every version of him. He's just a fictional character. I'm a massive Metal Gear Solid fan and I love Solid Snake but I sure as hell don't spare any jokes on him just because I love the character. I'm a fan. Why not poke fun at it? Same with Devil May Cry. I'm a fan so I poke fun at it. You people act like it's taboo though and take any joke made about Dante personally. Think you should lighten up though.

 

[Demi-fiend]

An excuse? Why not poke fun at it? Same with Devil May Cry. I'm a fan so I poke fun at it. You people act like it's taboo though and take any joke made about Dante personally. Think you should lighten up though.

Yeah, I poke fun at DmC Dante once in a while as well.

And you know that pseudo-intellectual would never lighten up, anyway. Since he takes himself way too seriously, that would be almost impossible for him.

Nah, I'll just say it's an out-and-out impossibility. I have no illusions whatsoever of that individual ever changing his ways.

 

[Stylish Nero]

Funny thing is I never poked fun at DmC Dante, I've questioned his writing/character but that is it, but I made fun of DMC1 Dante.

I never made fun of their clothes even DMC4 Dante because I seen worse

Much worse..........plus its fiction...who cares.

The only real problem with DMC4 outfit's is that it has way too many belts but it never took me out of the game.

I mean I can make fun of DmC Vergil and Dante even Kat's design as much as I want because there is something to make fun of.

But I know if I do SOMEONE out there would feel offended whether it be a video game character, a celebrity, or a relative.

 

[nightrunner_ks]

At this point, I love the game and creative combo video makers like Cedrus, Nisannka and Soupie so much that I really just shrug off all the hate. Don't like the lack of manual lock on? Get better at the game scrub. Hate 30fps? Play it on PC. Hate the lack of styles? DMC3 had one style at a time.

 

[Stylish Nero]

At this point, I love the game and creative combo video makers like Cedrus, Nisannka and Soupie so much that I really just shrug off all the hate. Don't like the lack of manual lock on? Get better at the game scrub. Hate 30fps? Play it on PC. Hate the lack of styles? DMC3 had one style at a time.

I've seen their stuff for DMC4 as well. There good but they're no Brea, Dango, Neko, or Blaze..who (as well as plenty of past DMC3/4 truestyle players) refuse to make videos for DmC. Plus any good/decent hack n slash game can have amazing combo videos/potential God of War has it, MGR has it, and even DMC2 has it. Its about the uniqueness, quality, and content of the gameplay that puts DMC and Bayonetta over the competition.

Its not just the lack of lock on but due to having that button removed (or replaces it with another dodge button) it decreases manual/directional inputs which then makes launchers a dedicated button that only performs launchers (or one attack) and decreases attacks/combos for all the weapons having less moves per weapon than never before.

Well what if they only play console games or don't have a PC. Its not their fault if the series before ran at 60 fps on consoles no problem and then the next game runs at 30 fps.

DMC1 and DMC2 never had styles and at least DMC4 has style switching. Plus its about evolving the series and improving upon what is there before. I would be fine if DmC was just casualized/streamline DMC4 but due to removing so much things that DMC introduced and adding nothing new to replace them its not even a casualized/streamlined version of DMC4 its rather a casualized/streamlined and stripped down version of DMC4.

I have an idea for people who miss styles...play DMC4 instead that has it and you can switch between them.

 

[nightrunner_ks]

I've seen their stuff for DMC4 as well. There good but they're no Brea, Dango, Neko, or Blaze..who (as well as plenty of past DMC3/4 truestyle players) refuse to make videos for DmC. Plus any good/decent hack n slash game can have amazing combo videos/potential God of War has it, MGR has it, and even DMC2 has it. Its about the uniqueness, quality, and content of the gameplay that puts DMC and Bayonetta over the competition.

Its not just the lack of lock on but due to having that button removed (or replaces it with another dodge button) it decreases manual/directional inputs which then makes launchers a dedicated button that only performs launchers (or one attack) and decreases attacks/combos for all the weapons having less moves per weapon than never before.

Well what if they only play console games or don't have a PC. Its not their fault if the series before ran at 60 fps on consoles no problem and then the next game runs at 30 fps.

DMC1 and DMC2 never had styles and at least DMC4 has style switching. Plus its about evolving the series and improving upon what is there before. I would be fine if DmC was just casualized/streamline DMC4 but due to removing so much things that DMC introduced and adding nothing new to replace them its not even a casualized/streamlined version of DMC4 its rather a casualized/streamlined and stripped down version of DMC4.

I have an idea for people who miss styles...play DMC4 instead that has it and you can switch between them.

90% of DMC4 combo videos are the same ****ing JC loop over and over again, coupled with obnoxious Call of Duty xxNo$c0P3xx Montage style editing. Brea is the reason why every ****ing combo video is called "COMBO MAD."

Some of the few DMC4 players I can withstand are the aforementioned Nisannka, Cedrus and HuangRSfly. Because they actually do creative **** with DMC4 and DmC, instead of cranking out the same "vstyle" or "truestyle" bullshit.

Look at the description of that video, and look at his DMC4 videos.

DMC3 is a different story. A limited moveset (relative to DMC4) leads to more creativity with the tools at hand, especially with Artemis.

 

[Goldsickle]

"Styles" is just a way to regulate Dante's large arsenal.

If controllers had more buttons or some more efficient way of executing specific moves when you want them, then there wouldn't be any need for Style-swapping.

To begin, a lot of the "Styles" moves weren't Style-exclusive.
For example, Fireworks (started out as part of a combo), Rainstorm, Drive, Beast Uppercut, Zodiac and so forth.

It doesn't matter how the moves are assigned, as long as the moves are available.

 

[OppressedWriter]

Yeah, being able to switch on the fly between styles/modes/weapons is always better than not. I don't know how that feature being implemented in all future DMC/DmC games could be a bad thing.

 

[aoshi]

You're really not understanding what I'm saying. Things like the castle on Mallet Island (swear it had its own name, but I can't remember it) and Temen-Ni-Gru were great with their backtracking because it's a location in which you see many things that you can't yet do anything about as you progress through the story. As I said, the puzzles and riddles of the old DMCs were firmly rooted in remembering locations and certain setpieces. As example, early on you find a statue with a specific relief, it gives you a riddle pertaining to what it wants, and then there's nothing you can do at the present time. Then later on in another place, you find something that could work in that statue's relief, and you have no other leads on how to progress, so you backtrack to that statue, and lo and behold, the item works on the statue and opens your way to progression! That's the best kind of backtracking - and some people still don't like it.

DMC4 had a small amount of that classic backtracking, but literally going backwards through each area as Dante, fighting the same enemies and bosses, is not the kind of backtracking that people are really okay with. Playing as Dante was peachy-keen, but they really just supplanted the character into Nero's locations (much like they did with Vergil in DMC3) and made you go backwards. Like...straight up backwards, from the Savior's Cradle to the Opera House with everything in between. No puzzles or riddles to have fun with either, because all you're doing is taking items out of stuff Nero put in them.

It's the laziest form of "backtracking" in any DMC because it's not the same as the standard set by the series. It's really rather subpar by regular standards, too.



What in the hell is your point, or for that matter, your problem? So because DMC's focus is on combat, the standard of backtracking and puzzle-solving the series was also known for makes it excusable to a lazy Dante reverse implant for half the game?

It's great we got to play as Dante and whatnot, but the fact that they did literally nothing to make his progression from area to area entertaining, like new enemies, bosses, or puzzles. Fighting the same old enemies that most can be addressed in the same manner as they were as Nero isn't as exciting as if there were new enemies only Dante could face.



How 'bout instead of acting like an arrogant prick you continue to contribute to the discussion you started.




No, I'm clearly explaining to you how the backtracking in DMC3 is different to the entirety of the lazy implementation of Dante in DMC4 where nothing was done other than going backwards and being a new character.

Being forced to go completely in reverse isn't backtracking like in DMC3. Hell, even DMC3 made you go back up Temen-Ni-Gru from the bottom floor, but managed to make the second trip incredibly different from the first. There's nothing worth applauding about DMC4's, other than letting you play a new character. Although it would have been less insulting if they gave Dante his own complete full campaign, where he follows a similar path as Nero, but with different enemies, puzzles, and bosses, instead of taking up half the game to play as Dante doing nothing but going backwards and fighting nothing we hadn't already fought.

The much hated DMC2 did it...why couldn't the much lauded DMC4 :/

I was also challenging your stupid claim of "no one is forcing you to play, so you can't complain." The developers included the single player story as the main feature - it's the only thing that you can play right outta the box. Obviously they want you to complete it. Especially since you need to complete it to get things like Bloody Palace and whatnot. If DMC was really only about combat, then all they'd have is Bloody Palace; they wouldn't bother with animating story cutscenes and even different areas with puzzles.

Two different matters. I've laid them out, and there's really nothing more to be said.

But go ahead, just *yawn* again. You're the one wasting time by not addressing the arguments you brought upon yourself

Drop the attitude, I doubt anyone finds it cool that you can act like a smug asshole on the interwebs.

First , you were totally against the idea of backtracking. Now, you are arguing that backtracking with so called "puzzles" is okay. You seem to troll the argument when it ended with DMC 3 too had backtracking. To me, if backtrackin with puzzles okay, playing as a different character(with different gameplay pattern) to different enemy patterns is acceptable in a hack n slash game.

Also, DMC 2 is not considered a good DMC game. So we can't have another DMC 2 for obvious reasons. And how much had to be sacrificed to have two characters their own campaign is quite visible as DMC 2.

Again, DMC is a hack n slash game. It is not necessary that all missions have different areas for viewing pleasure but emphasis is more on combat which DMC 4 accomplished.

BTW, Welcome to my ignore list.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

First , you were totally against the idea of backtracking. Now, you are arguing that backtracking with so called "puzzles" is okay. You seem to troll the argument when it ended with DMC 3 too had backtracking. To me, if backtrackin with puzzles okay, playing as a different character(with different gameplay pattern) to different enemy patterns is acceptable in a hack n slash game.

BTW, Welcome to my ignore list.

Nowhere did I ever say I was against backtracking in its entirety, only the craptastic "backtracking" in DMC4 that lacked much of the potential or depth of previous entries - even the much-hated DMC2 did a better job than it. But thanks for omitting portions of my argument. No wonder half of what you replied with made no attempt to address what I was saying.

Beeteedubs, I applaud you ungraciously bowing out of the discussion without having added anything valuable to it since we started.

 

[OppressedWriter]

lol don't know what transpired between you two, but that Chow Yun Fat Gif is awesome.

 

[nightrunner_ks]

Nowhere did I ever say I was against backtracking in its entirety, only the craptastic "backtracking" in DMC4 that lacked much of the potential or depth of previous entries - even the much-hated DMC2 did a better job than it. But thanks for omitting portions of my argument. No wonder half of what you replied with made no attempt to address what I was saying.

Beeteedubs, I applaud you ungraciously bowing out of the discussion without having added anything valuable to it since we started.

Somebody call the burn ward!

BTW, aoshi, ignore lists are for pussies

 

[GF9000000Returns]

Also, DMC 2 is not considered a good DMC game.So we can't have another DMC 2 for obvious reasons.

In other words, a DMC5 since Capcom is gonna rush it.

 

[IncarnatedDemon]

DMC is dead to be honest. Capcom doesn't care much for the serie anymore. The storyline is also a mess.

THIS IS FACT:
They said if NT wasnt around they probably wouldnt have made DMC game.

And the fact they decided to reboot and reject Dante is ultimate betrayal of the things us fans like.
They even replaced him to certain degree.

 

[TWOxACROSS]

DMC is dead to be honest. Capcom doesn't care much for the serie anymore. The storyline is also a mess.

THIS IS FACT:
They said if NT wasnt around they probably wouldnt have made DMC game.

Yeah...I'm gonna need a source on that before I believe Capcom says something like that >.>

And the fact they decided to reboot and reject Dante is ultimate betrayal of the things us fans like.
They even replaced him to certain degree.

I don't see much rejection or replacement when Dante is still seen in things like Project X Zone. Just because they made a new one doesn't mean they're forgetting about the old one. Case in point with things like Mega Man. For as long as he had games coming out, there were like five different versions of him all being developed at the same time.