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Stop telling people what to do/believe

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TWOxACROSS said:
Freedom of speech doesn't mean that what you say is worth hearing.

The bigger problem is that a lot of it really just involves people coming to this forum specifically to disagree, and talk crap. Yes, we all know that people don't like DmC, but really...seriously. Honestly. Wholeheartedly - no one gives a sh!t. The game isn't a commercial nor technical failure, it doesn't deserve nearly as much of the disdain as other games that truly are horrible piles.

I'd love to see even just one week of discussion on here devoid of controversy. Without someone dropping in to complain about this or that, to raise up another installment in the franchise while simultaneously shoving DmC in the muck. Just as equally, without the detractors to bring controversy, there'd be no people bringing up controversy of their own trying to question and fight ill-thought and baseless complaints. I'd just be so interested to see that, just to see how it would be like. To just have a nice discussion where someone doesn't jump in and essentially start saying "but this sucks!"

No one can just leave well enough alone, anymore. It's never enough to just not like something and be done with it, nowadays people have to seek out the bastions where people happily discuss their love for something a detractor hates, and spread their own vitriol all over it to prevent anyone from getting any enjoyment.

You wanna talk about how moderators shouldn't be necessary? Then maybe the detractors should leave, take their vitriolic and completely useless views with them, and spend their time and energy on something constructive instead. If they weren't around riling sh!t up, the mods would certainly not have to police threads as much as they do.

Oh, and you can't really say that a group of people has certain inalienable rights. This forum isn't a democracy, we're at the whims and rules of the people running the show. They could establish a new rule that every thread start with a "G'day!" and a picture of a kitten lest it be promptly deleted (if it wasn't too troublesome to police), and we'd have to either adhere to the rule or stop coming around.

Yes, there will always be detractors, but why do I have to deal with them? Why do I have to wade through their bullsh!t just to have a nice discussion with another DmC lover? Why should I offer them any respect when they are so pettily wasting their life focusing on something they hate? It's self-destructive and just really, really sad.

But hey! It's all an exercise in futility on both our ends really, so...
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Honestly, all I can say is that it is a waste of time to focus on petty and trivial things!
 
MultiBro said:
It's not an issue about freedom of speech, the issue is how some people go with the "You don't agree with me, therefore you are wrong" and "My opinion is fact" line of thinking.

Also, you guys don't contribute anything by saying "this thread is gonna go bad!", you are just asking for to get that way.
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Exactly. That is when stuff starts spinning out of control. What people should do is strive to bring forth arguments for their views of being right and the other wrong. It's just that a lot of people can't accept that they could ever be wrong, so they get defensive, and again, stuff gets spinning and the stuff flies everywhere. Damn stuff.
Like I said, if your views are based on your emotions only, then you are not right or wrong. Nor is the other wrong for having a different opinion. Still, opinions are subject to scrutiny, so if you're asked to explain, better explain it with facts. Who knows, maybe you are right and the other is wrong in some way. We just have to give people the chance to explain why they think they're right... etc etc.

You know? XD
 
LysseC said:
We don't have the right to say whatever crosses our minds, if this whatever becomes thoroughly insulting, thus violating another people's right not to be insulted. We have the right to express our opinion respectfully, and 'respectfully' includes not insulting other people. Other people, obviously, have the same duty (because everyone has the right not to be insulted, I'd say).

Not insulting people is necessary if we want to maintain a certain level of civility, that helps the conversation go on smoothly.
Example: if I came here and said something like "you're an idiot, are you so stupid that you don't see that mods are here to defend us from some retarded members who have nothing better to do with their lives that pi$$ing people off with their bull$hit?"... Well, this would be quite disrespectful to you (and those members I gratuitously insulted), don't you think? You'd have every right to feel hurt by my way of putting things. (Obviously, I do not mean anything of which I just said, it was an hypothetical example... :P )

Point is, being respectful is important because it should prevent annoying escalations of insulting sessions. That is what I mean when I say "Don't spread hate". I ask (not order, but suggest) people to act in a way that helps the discussion be a constructive one. When a topic degenerates in a flamewar the problem is, it spoils the fun of everyone who comes here to have a good discussion with other people, and that's why moderators are required. On the other hand, it's also true that it can happen that sometimes some people take a respectful exchange of opinions for a flamewar, and in this case they are wrong.

As always, if everyone managed to keep a level head, not mix opinions with facts, and not attack other people over their respectfully stated opinions, then there would be no need for mods. Since it's not always so, mods are here to prevent this forum becoming a battlefield: if this forum is still a rather peaceful haven for fans of this series it's also because mods have done their job well so far.

As for opinions like "DMC/DmC is complete bull$hit", those are not insulting other people directly, but, once again, they don't help the discussion to be a civilized one either. Some people may not be offended by an opinion stated as such, but some other people may find it at least somehow...how can I say? Annoying? Yeah.
What I mean is, if you come and say "DMC is bs" without even trying to discuss your claim, you're not directly insulting me, but at the same time your attitude doesn't help in putting up for a civilized discussion, but is more likely to get me all riled up and angry. But if you come and say "I don't like DMC because of x and y and z", then I'll be more willing to discuss those x and y and z, and a civilized discussion is more likely to take place. (Assuming that having a civilized discussion is the purpose of a forum)
If you think about it, it's the same as the title of this thread and your posts: if your only contributions to the discussion had been "Stop telling me what to do, 'cause I'm doing it anyway", then it wouldn't have helped to bring about a civilized discussion; but since you explained what you thought respectfully, then other people found it easier to answer you in an equally respectful way, and so on.

So, to sum up: we have the right to express our opinions, but we don't have the right to insult other people, and thus we should maintain a respectful tone when proposing or discussing our opinions. This helps the conversation to go on smoothly, for the fun of everyone.
The fact that "accidents" (people being disrespectful) do in fact happen is not a reason for saying that it is ok if they happen.


...Now, sorry if I'm being THE one who spoils the fun for everyone, but shouldn't this (very interesting) thread go in the General Discussion section?

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Thanks... :blush:
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I can't say I agree that people have the right not to be insulted :P

But the rest I can totally agree on. We need to have civil discussions. Well, as civil as it can get, anyway, in order to keep the forums going. Otherwise, everybody will, at some point, have insulted everyone - which ruins the longevity of the forums, I suppose.

And... yeah, I don't know why I didn't see that earlier. I just feel that if some people are insulting each other out of many, many people in one thread, the thread shouldn't automatically be locked. It just seems to happen a bit too soon every time. Not everybody's going to get involved, and sometimes the discussion can still go on, so in that case, don't close the thread, I'd say.

And I'm done for the day :P
 
TWOxACROSS said:
*snip*
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You know what would solve your problem?

The ignore function...

Instead of you adding to the problem with disdain and a soar attitude then you could simply ignore or add said members who you think are causing problems for discussions to your ignore list.

I still don't see the reason why some fans feel the need to get offended and jump into a argument with someone because they come back and voice their dislike for DmC.

Whether it be hostile like "DmC just SUCKS!" or respectful "DmC really was not all that good in my opinion" I have seen to many fans rage out against comments like this and attack a member.

Now I'm not defending the hostile crowd who attacks DmC, but 1 side has to take the higher ground if you honestly want to have a peaceful discussion, and quite frankly it is more likely to be the people getting drawn in rather than the drawers.

That being said, if someone does voice their opinion in a respectful way even if its critical of DmC they should be allowed to do so. After all, they brought the game and played the game just like other fans around here, and no where in the rules does it say "well you have to be POSITIVE when discussing a game".

Forums are here for DISCUSSION and voicing your opinion on a game you played, whether it be positive or negative the over all rule on most forums is that you be RESPECTFUL while doing it.

so pretty much what i'm asking all my fellow fans and forum goers is...


 
TWOxACROSS said:
That'd be all fine and dandy if many of them didn't spend a lot of their time trying to spread misinformation with their comments. I'm disgustingly compelled to correct such erroneous claims because I cannot stand when people form opinions based on false information.

I can't stop. I disgust myself...
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Misinformation, ah. Every time that happens on the net, I'm just like:
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Just without the large cute bow in my hair...but I sure wouldn't mind one. ;_;

Although there was one guy I spoke with some time ago who got wrong information that I corrected him about, and everything was fine and dandy there. Was a really nice dude.
 
TWOxACROSS said:
That'd be all fine and dandy if many of them didn't spend a lot of their time trying to spread misinformation with their comments. I'm disgustingly compelled to correct such erroneous claims because I cannot stand when people form opinions based on false information.

I can't stop. I disgust myself...
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sad_know_that_feel_hug.jpg
 
TWOxACROSS said:
That'd be all fine and dandy if many of them didn't spend a lot of their time trying to spread misinformation with their comments. I'm disgustingly compelled to correct such erroneous claims because I cannot stand when people form opinions based on false information.

I can't stop. I disgust myself...
​
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Just curious, if someone on these forums said "fans who complained about DmC disliked NTDante because of white hair only", would you say that is false or true information?

Because you say you don't like opinions based on false information, and i want to see if you really mean it.

So if it's ok with you, can i get an answer?
 
People need to learn how to ignore if they aren't comfortable with the idea.
But if they want to change those people's minds then learn how to swing both sides.Try to understand their point of view and to accept it.Just because your opinion is liked by others from obvious reasons,doesn't make yours better.People need to be open minded and to be tolerant, of course, if you can have a discussion with that person,if not,then leave them be and ignore.

I'm neutral. If I don't agree with something, I'm capable of expressing my disagreement politely and clearly,without insulting,at least as much as I can.

There will be always people who don't agree,who can be polite,who can be open-minded and who can be plain haters. But it's important to adapt in these situations,not to imitate their behaviour,but to learn how to live with them,because this is like real life too.There will be always people who won't share the same thinking as you and express their opinions violently or not.This is life afterall :/.

But I learnt something on here.I won't be repressed in expressing my opinion because I don't agree with something.I know people who will be told to shut up because their opinion isn't the same as the other ones.And then those people,will have the right to insult,to spread negative influence,but still tell the others to keep quiet.Thanks but no.

As I already said,it's better to learn how to agree and disagree,but not reacting in a harsh or violent way.Learn how to be open to others,but at the same time,how to be keep your idea,and most important,don't insult others or their preferences just because it doesn't fit your beliefs and tastes.
 
TWOxACROSS said:
That'd be all fine and dandy if many of them didn't spend a lot of their time trying to spread misinformation with their comments. I'm disgustingly compelled to correct such erroneous claims because I cannot stand when people form opinions based on false information.

I can't stop. I disgust myself...
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Well its all well and good that you want to correct mistakes for the benefit of helping others around the web not become misinformed, but you are just going to have to come to the realization that you become part of the problem when you engage such individuals rather than the solution since changing their minds is not going to happen most of the time and if they are honestly doing it on purpose to get a reaction out of you they are succeeding.

As someone else pointed out, if its a honest mistake on said members part and you correct it and they are fine with it then that is a different story, but if they continue to insist that there is no problem when you are pretty sure there is than your going to be dragged into something that could easily be avoided.
To many flame wars start by such actions, and if your ok with continuing your attitude towards replying to these individuals than so be it...
 
I can tell you to do whatever I want to tell you to do. You don't have to listen to me and I don't have to listen to you. But it sure isn't an efficient way of coming to an understanding, so I reserve the right not to tell anyone what to do. XD

Honestly, though, I think a lot of people just want vindication because something isn't their extremely particular taste. It's okay to like different things for different reasons and admit those things are all good, so long as they have merit. People on both sides are guilty of forgetting that there are good things about the old and the new, and they aren't always the same.

The sad part is seeing the fandom we love suffer because people are unwilling to cope with change, and throw so much of their emotions into spoiling the good that could come of the present situation. Everyone is free to do that, and I welcome them to if they think it's a good idea, but I hope they won't ignore the consequences of such vitriol. This is the kind of stuff that can kill a franchise if it gets too out of hand.
 
Lionheart1991 said:
Hey, guys. I don't visit this site that often anymore, but there's some things I have to get off my chest.

Stop telling people to stop spreading hate or whatever. We all have freedom of speech, and if you don't want to listen to what somebody has to say, then don't read it and/or don't reply. There's no need to have moderators come in. I'd almost say it's not necessary to have moderators. We take responsibility for our comments, and we don't lock a thread because ''oooh, it's getting hairy''. And so what if it is? Just accept that being human includes the nasty bits. We're adults; we don't need some motherly figure hovering above us locking threads because we're supposed to play nice in order to protect the soft spots on our heads. This is in response to the Dante's wig joke discussion of about half a week ago.

I will say this, though: if you've got something to say, think long and hard about what it's going to be. Make sure it at least has something to do with the topic. Make sure it isn't solely based on your emotions, because chances are... other people will have other emotions! :O Want to insult people? I guess you can, as long as it's based on something. I'm sure it'll die out if it gets out of hand and somehow strays away from the subject. Locking threads is only going to spoil it for the people who want to have conversations instead of mindlessly assholing around.
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People have freedom of speech to voice opinions but when they all turn into childish idiots who fill the forums with insults being traded backwards and forwards there is no point to it all. Just a huge waste of time that puts people off being here, sharing opinions is all well and good. Telling people you want them to go burn in a fire or jump off a cliff for disagreeing with you is not really a conversation piece people should be 'allowed' to continue to push.

Bottom line is the staff are only here moderating comments because there are a lot of disrespectful and angry people in the world who like nothing more than to insult others and put them down on a daily basis. These people don't have 'conversations' they just go around in circles insulting people, their attitude, their opinions, their families and anything else they can to get a 'rise' out of others. Makes forums look unappealing, disrespectful and unprofessional and then they all eventually die out because its just turned into a troll playground.

LysseC said:
We don't have the right to say whatever crosses our minds, if this whatever becomes thoroughly insulting, thus violating another people's right not to be insulted. We have the right to express our opinion respectfully, and 'respectfully' includes not insulting other people. Other people, obviously, have the same duty (because everyone has the right not to be insulted, I'd say).

Not insulting people is necessary if we want to maintain a certain level of civility, that helps the conversation go on smoothly.
Example: if I came here and said something like "you're an idiot, are you so stupid that you don't see that mods are here to defend us from some retarded members who have nothing better to do with their lives that pi$$ing people off with their bull$hit?"... Well, this would be quite disrespectful to you (and those members I gratuitously insulted), don't you think? You'd have every right to feel hurt by my way of putting things. (Obviously, I do not mean anything of which I just said, it was an hypothetical example... :P )

Point is, being respectful is important because it should prevent annoying escalations of insulting sessions. That is what I mean when I say "Don't spread hate". I ask (not order, but suggest) people to act in a way that helps the discussion be a constructive one. When a topic degenerates in a flamewar the problem is, it spoils the fun of everyone who comes here to have a good discussion with other people, and that's why moderators are required. On the other hand, it's also true that it can happen that sometimes some people take a respectful exchange of opinions for a flamewar, and in this case they are wrong.

As always, if everyone managed to keep a level head, not mix opinions with facts, and not attack other people over their respectfully stated opinions, then there would be no need for mods. Since it's not always so, mods are here to prevent this forum becoming a battlefield: if this forum is still a rather peaceful haven for fans of this series it's also because mods have done their job well so far.

As for opinions like "DMC/DmC is complete bull$hit", those are not insulting other people directly, but, once again, they don't help the discussion to be a civilized one either. Some people may not be offended by an opinion stated as such, but some other people may find it at least somehow...how can I say? Annoying? Yeah.
What I mean is, if you come and say "DMC is bs" without even trying to discuss your claim, you're not directly insulting me, but at the same time your attitude doesn't help in putting up for a civilized discussion, but is more likely to get me all riled up and angry. But if you come and say "I don't like DMC because of x and y and z", then I'll be more willing to discuss those x and y and z, and a civilized discussion is more likely to take place. (Assuming that having a civilized discussion is the purpose of a forum)
If you think about it, it's the same as the title of this thread and your posts: if your only contributions to the discussion had been "Stop telling me what to do, 'cause I'm doing it anyway", then it wouldn't have helped to bring about a civilized discussion; but since you explained what you thought respectfully, then other people found it easier to answer you in an equally respectful way, and so on.

So, to sum up: we have the right to express our opinions, but we don't have the right to insult other people, and thus we should maintain a respectful tone when proposing or discussing our opinions. This helps the conversation to go on smoothly, for the fun of everyone.
The fact that "accidents" (people being disrespectful) do in fact happen is not a reason for saying that it is ok if they happen.


...Now, sorry if I'm being THE one who spoils the fun for everyone, but shouldn't this (very interesting) thread go in the General Discussion section?

EDIT

Thanks... :blush:
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Bravo and finally some wise words on these forums.
 
Yo, if your going to discuss DmC controversy, how about being honest about it?
Have anyone done a scientific study to see whether people dislike DmC because of change itself or because of the game itself?
As far as i am aware ---no.

So how about not stating "People are unwilling to cope with change" as a fact that this is what happened to DmC.

Let me give a e.g. In beginning of DmC they talked about DMC DNA and what that was. One of that DNA was the gameplay , but i believe they didn't realize that Dante (original) is also part of DMC DNA.
He makes DMC...Devil May Cry.
And then they rebooted him, people got annoyed. Not because of a white hair but because they did not ask for a reboot, they did not ask for NTDAnte. They asked for original Dante.
So their reason for complaining was never about a hair colour change, they simply like original Dante and that is how they felt about situation. Change of character isn't a trivial thing, especially in DmC controversy where the serie was out of nowhere rebooted.

I think two important reason DmC was a failure are:
  1. The character
  2. the focus of the game
In DMC the focus was heavily on gameplay. In DmC the focus was divided between gameplay and graphics and story.
Instead of working with Capcom's own engine they decided they wanted to use Unreal Engine for dynamic enviroments, and this they sacrificed frame rate for.
They didn't include taunt because they thought it would intefere with the narrative.
And then there is no lock on or option for it.

There is no "But i am sure NT will make DmC 2 great!" or "DmC has potential". The only potential DmC has a game is the potential the fans of it see in its story because of their own preference.
NT had with help from Capcom a chance to make a better gameplay experience than past iterations, and they failed that job.
But everyone goes around pretending they made a great game, even though the gameplay design was pioonered and evolved by Capcom and was given to NT as a blueprint for what to do.

You argue Ninja theory is talented - where is the talent then? Because focusing on graphics in a genre where graphics is not important to the experience...is not talented.
Graphics do not make you great game designer because games are about gameplay.
A genius can make a small with the crappiest graphics you have ever seen, and if that genius does a good job with the gameplay, that game will be more fun to play than DmC.

If you want to look at pretty things or have your story and character preference catered to, then sure DmC may be for you, but if you want to play games where the gameplay is pushed forward instead of backwards, then DmC isn't it.
 
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