Nero. Is he really Vergil's son?
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Darth Angelo;261324 said:
I'd say that if anyone would know the limitations of being pre-occupied with other people, it would be Vergil. He's
hell-bent on making himself invincible in DMC3, and until he got what he wanted, you'd think he wouldn't have distracted himself either with what he probably thought of as a superficial human urge, or love - a deadly weakness. He doesn't like weakness in the slightest, that's clear... and actually loving somebody would make him super-vulnerable. As would getting his rocks off, too I suppose (unless he planned on keeping hold of Yamato the whole time).
I mean, sure, I think he loves or at least respects Dante, but he knows Dante can take care of himself. A human on the other hand... probably couldn't, just like his mother. Why he would involve himself is a bit baffling.
And the battle rages on. Who, oh who is Nero's daddy? The world may never know.
I wasn't intending to make my first post on these boards in this thread. X) But I can't believe this is still being debated over. Every forum I go to has a lengthy thread about Nero's DNA. Where's Mhaury when you need him, eh?
So here's my stance on the matter:
If you take the DMC4 novels as canon, then Vergil -is- the father. Personally, I don't understand why those who wish to see Vergil return so badly are so upset by this. To be honest, I think its as close as you're going to get to Vergil himself making a reappearance, and here's why:
That "I'll do -anything- to protect her." Stuff he kept spewing? Rings a bell to me. Vergil's desire for power flows strong in them veins methinks. And he had that desire before his arm got all creepyfied and before the Yamato came along.
Now we all have theories for the stewpot. I personally think that Vergil's spirit has fused itself with the Yamato - similar to other devil arms posessed with souls of slain demons. And now that the blade is in the hands of one who shares such close blood, and that same desire for power, the Yamato is totally gonna screw Nero up - Daddy's soul and old desires twisting his Final Fantasy-esque love for Kyrie into a weapon.
In that way, Vergil having a son isn't too far fetched is it? He understood more about their demonic heritage than Dante did. So who said anything about love or intamacy? What if it was some evil masterminded Plan B, eh?
Theories aside, though:
Is likely the only truth in this whole mess. If you believe anything said on the capcom unity forums (if anyone goes there), it was mentioned that a Capcom spokesperson let slip that Vergil was his father, and that it was decided not to reveal this yet even though it was their first intention to do so. But that's likely hearsay.
Still, after seeing Nero's original concept art, along with the story from the novel and everything else, they're going to have a hard time convincing me that Vergil isn't his dad.
I wasn't intending to make my first post on these boards in this thread. X) But I can't believe this is still being debated over. Every forum I go to has a lengthy thread about Nero's DNA. Where's Mhaury when you need him, eh?
So here's my stance on the matter:
If you take the DMC4 novels as canon, then Vergil -is- the father. Personally, I don't understand why those who wish to see Vergil return so badly are so upset by this. To be honest, I think its as close as you're going to get to Vergil himself making a reappearance, and here's why:
That "I'll do -anything- to protect her." Stuff he kept spewing? Rings a bell to me. Vergil's desire for power flows strong in them veins methinks. And he had that desire before his arm got all creepyfied and before the Yamato came along.
Now we all have theories for the stewpot. I personally think that Vergil's spirit has fused itself with the Yamato - similar to other devil arms posessed with souls of slain demons. And now that the blade is in the hands of one who shares such close blood, and that same desire for power, the Yamato is totally gonna screw Nero up - Daddy's soul and old desires twisting his Final Fantasy-esque love for Kyrie into a weapon.
In that way, Vergil having a son isn't too far fetched is it? He understood more about their demonic heritage than Dante did. So who said anything about love or intamacy? What if it was some evil masterminded Plan B, eh?
Theories aside, though:
Lexy said:
Is likely the only truth in this whole mess. If you believe anything said on the capcom unity forums (if anyone goes there), it was mentioned that a Capcom spokesperson let slip that Vergil was his father, and that it was decided not to reveal this yet even though it was their first intention to do so. But that's likely hearsay.
Still, after seeing Nero's original concept art, along with the story from the novel and everything else, they're going to have a hard time convincing me that Vergil isn't his dad.
Hmmrrrrawr. At the end of the day... I can't say it's really that farfetched for a Cold-Hearted Bastard to end up in such a situation, possibly with kids. I mean, looking at myself, I'm almost as screwed up as Vergil appears to be. And have I got myself into situations... It's possible. Very possible. Even CHB's have a flip side. ^_^
S'probably true that it is the only truth in the lovely quagmire CAPCOM created with 4. The only thing that really stands out in it to me is the fact Nero doesn't fit in at all and they refuse to make him fit properly. The ambiguous-ness pretty much screams who he is and where he came from. Although I have heard other theories about Nero being 'created' by the Order, the simplest explanation as they say is often the truth.
S'probably true that it is the only truth in the lovely quagmire CAPCOM created with 4. The only thing that really stands out in it to me is the fact Nero doesn't fit in at all and they refuse to make him fit properly. The ambiguous-ness pretty much screams who he is and where he came from. Although I have heard other theories about Nero being 'created' by the Order, the simplest explanation as they say is often the truth.
I still think that Nero being Sparda reborn makes the most sense. His coat is purple (Sparta's color), his arm has all the colors of the Sparda family (blue, red, and purple), he's in love just like Sparda was, and Berial himself said "You are just like he was". This obviously refers to Sparta, unless we're going to assume that Vergil fought him before, which is ridiculous, given that Berial hasn't been in the human world since Spartas time.
On top of all that, his story is similar to Sparta's in that he rebels against his superiors/brethren upon realizing that they're evil. He falls in love just like Sparta did, and his personality reflects what Sparta was supposedly like in the human world. His attitude in DT also sorta reflects how Sparta was like in the Demon World ("GIVE ME MORE POWER!" and all of that); i realize it could also relate to Vergil, but he's so much like Sparta already, it doesn't matter either way.
For me, if Nero turned out to Vergil's son it would ruin both characters. It would'nt really be in character of Vergil to start have a relationship (even a sexual one) until he had achieved his power. After all, in DMC3, he made the point that without power you can't protect anything, let alone yourself. He would not be able to protect his significant other(s) without his power, and they may be subjected to the terrible fate he was subjected too when he was a child.
As for Nero, storywise his character would lose potential and depth if he were just another descendant of Sparda.
Then there's the theory that he's Sparta's lost son, and that doesnt make any sense either. Mainly because if Sparda was so devoted to Eva, why would he go out and be with another woman? Furthermore, I find it unlikely that he would abandon one son in favor of the other.
Finally, there's the theory that he was created by the Order, and that's incredibly absurd, considering you think people like Agnus, Sanctus, and Credo would know about it. Especially Agnus, since he was the scientist working on all the demonic projects.
So in conclusion, Nero is Sparta reincarnated.
(imo)
On top of all that, his story is similar to Sparta's in that he rebels against his superiors/brethren upon realizing that they're evil. He falls in love just like Sparta did, and his personality reflects what Sparta was supposedly like in the human world. His attitude in DT also sorta reflects how Sparta was like in the Demon World ("GIVE ME MORE POWER!" and all of that); i realize it could also relate to Vergil, but he's so much like Sparta already, it doesn't matter either way.
For me, if Nero turned out to Vergil's son it would ruin both characters. It would'nt really be in character of Vergil to start have a relationship (even a sexual one) until he had achieved his power. After all, in DMC3, he made the point that without power you can't protect anything, let alone yourself. He would not be able to protect his significant other(s) without his power, and they may be subjected to the terrible fate he was subjected too when he was a child.
As for Nero, storywise his character would lose potential and depth if he were just another descendant of Sparda.
Then there's the theory that he's Sparta's lost son, and that doesnt make any sense either. Mainly because if Sparda was so devoted to Eva, why would he go out and be with another woman? Furthermore, I find it unlikely that he would abandon one son in favor of the other.
Finally, there's the theory that he was created by the Order, and that's incredibly absurd, considering you think people like Agnus, Sanctus, and Credo would know about it. Especially Agnus, since he was the scientist working on all the demonic projects.
So in conclusion, Nero is Sparta reincarnated.
(imo)
Legendary Darkslayer;261948 said:
Holy crap. Dude, I agree with you 100%. I had believed this theory before, but I couldn't find enough proof to uphold it until now. Thanks!
Legendary Darkslayer;261950 said:
So do I. It makes the most sense out of all the theories out there.
Yeah, I think so to. Storywise I think It'd be more interesting if he turns out to be Sparta reincarnated, instead of just a plot device to reintroduce Vergil.
Sparda reincarnation "theory" has several issues, actually. It seems to stem from a misunderstanding of what exactly reincarnation is, and dismissing other evidence without consideration. Let me list some of them.
1. The only evidence you have given is very weak, and very circumstantial. Wearing purple and being in love does not make one Sparda, just as having a beard and believing in God does not make one Jesus. This isn't Power Rangers, and reincarnated people don't wear the same colors as they did in their past lives. This is probably just Capcom messing with us or signifying that he has Sparda blood.
2. Berial could be talking about Sparda, when he says "you are just like he was," but we don't know what the actual similarity is. It is just as plausible that Berial could be talking about Vergil, since Vergil has been in Hell for over a decade by the time we get to DMC1. I'm sure they have met.
3. Nero does not reflect Sparda in any way, except maybe for a coincidental rebellion against the organization he works for.But even then, Nero didn't really believe in the Order in the first place. Nowhere do we have an indication that Sparda acted like a crying emo punk while in the human world, and we have no indication that we was all like "GIVE ME MOAR POWER" either. That is Vergil all the way.
4. Reincarnation does not work this way. If Sparda really did reincarnate, his hair would not be white, he would not be partly human, and he would not have any powers or memories from his past life. He would also not have the same DNA, unless he reincarnated back into his own bloodline, which means that he would essentially be his own son or grandson, which is dumb. There are also timeline issues, since if Sparda could reincarnate, then what was he waiting for? Nero is like 17 right, which means that he came to be before DMC3. Why would Sparda not just reincarnate instantly and save his family, and why would he reincarnate on an island with a cult dedicated to him as someone who doesn't even believe in that cult?
If Nero was Sparda reincarnated, that is what would ruin characters. Instead of the badass that Sparda was, we see him transformed into a skinny, whiny, emo kid who can't even finish off a scrub of a boss like Baal. Sparda single-handedly faces Hell, lives for 2000 years defending the world, and gets reincarnated as a punk...I don't think so.
Also, where does the DB fit into this? What about Nero's DT, which is clearly meant to be Vergil?
The truth is that the reincarnation theory only has hints to go on, and has just as many, if not more holes than other theories. The reincarnation theory has no explanation for the "why" behind any of it.
The most plausible theories are that Nero is Vergil's son, or that Nero was created by the Order. The former does seem out of character for Vergil, and it would have to happen before DMC3. The latter makes the most sense, and isn't as absurd as you think. We already know that such artifical beings are possible in the DMC world, as in DMC2, and the Order has tons of experience creating such beings, as with the Angelos, the Basilisks, etc. And Sanctus obviously does know that Nero has Sparda blood and he knows about Dante too. The fact that Agnus doesn't know just means he wasn't around when Nero was made.
In conclusion, Nero is not Sparda reincarnated. There is not enough to support it, and there is too much evidence in support of other theories.
1. The only evidence you have given is very weak, and very circumstantial. Wearing purple and being in love does not make one Sparda, just as having a beard and believing in God does not make one Jesus. This isn't Power Rangers, and reincarnated people don't wear the same colors as they did in their past lives. This is probably just Capcom messing with us or signifying that he has Sparda blood.
2. Berial could be talking about Sparda, when he says "you are just like he was," but we don't know what the actual similarity is. It is just as plausible that Berial could be talking about Vergil, since Vergil has been in Hell for over a decade by the time we get to DMC1. I'm sure they have met.
3. Nero does not reflect Sparda in any way, except maybe for a coincidental rebellion against the organization he works for.But even then, Nero didn't really believe in the Order in the first place. Nowhere do we have an indication that Sparda acted like a crying emo punk while in the human world, and we have no indication that we was all like "GIVE ME MOAR POWER" either. That is Vergil all the way.
4. Reincarnation does not work this way. If Sparda really did reincarnate, his hair would not be white, he would not be partly human, and he would not have any powers or memories from his past life. He would also not have the same DNA, unless he reincarnated back into his own bloodline, which means that he would essentially be his own son or grandson, which is dumb. There are also timeline issues, since if Sparda could reincarnate, then what was he waiting for? Nero is like 17 right, which means that he came to be before DMC3. Why would Sparda not just reincarnate instantly and save his family, and why would he reincarnate on an island with a cult dedicated to him as someone who doesn't even believe in that cult?
If Nero was Sparda reincarnated, that is what would ruin characters. Instead of the badass that Sparda was, we see him transformed into a skinny, whiny, emo kid who can't even finish off a scrub of a boss like Baal. Sparda single-handedly faces Hell, lives for 2000 years defending the world, and gets reincarnated as a punk...I don't think so.
Also, where does the DB fit into this? What about Nero's DT, which is clearly meant to be Vergil?
The truth is that the reincarnation theory only has hints to go on, and has just as many, if not more holes than other theories. The reincarnation theory has no explanation for the "why" behind any of it.
The most plausible theories are that Nero is Vergil's son, or that Nero was created by the Order. The former does seem out of character for Vergil, and it would have to happen before DMC3. The latter makes the most sense, and isn't as absurd as you think. We already know that such artifical beings are possible in the DMC world, as in DMC2, and the Order has tons of experience creating such beings, as with the Angelos, the Basilisks, etc. And Sanctus obviously does know that Nero has Sparda blood and he knows about Dante too. The fact that Agnus doesn't know just means he wasn't around when Nero was made.
In conclusion, Nero is not Sparda reincarnated. There is not enough to support it, and there is too much evidence in support of other theories.
If Nero is Vergil's son, then I will be struck by a flying TV in the next ten seconds.
Guess not.
Okay, then again, you don't have much evidence to support your theories either. There isn't much evidence for ANY theory.
BTW, Sparda in human form had white hair and was described as cold like Vergil but annoying like Dante. Sounds like Nero to me.
And you say things as if Sparda would willingly reincarnate himself. Reincarnation is not a willful thing, it just happens. The reincarnate person has no control over it. And you also lose your memories/experiences of your past life.
Agnus had most likely been with the Order for a long time if he'd been able to create so many demons and do so much research. That would obviously take a long time-span, so that debunks the theory of Nero being an experiment.
If Nero's DT ghost wasn't blue, no one would say it was Vergil's. Just because it has a blue tint doesn't mean it's Vergil's DT. Look at it, the design except for the arm sheath is completely different. You can't say it's wearing Nelo's armor either, because it's not. It's too angular, and the horns are too screwed up.
And I think you're letting your hate for Nero get in the way of some of your judgment. Such as the fact that "Sparda wouldn't get reincarnated as some whiny emo kid". Dude, the guy is f*cking 17. Cut him some slack, he's not mature yet. That's the part that f*cking ticks me off SO MUCH. Nero is YOUNGER than Dante, so OF COURSE he's not going to be as cool! Get the hell over it, people.
Berial is most likely talking about Sparda. Nero is nothing like Vergil in his DMC1 incarnation. Not at all.
Guess not.
Okay, then again, you don't have much evidence to support your theories either. There isn't much evidence for ANY theory.
BTW, Sparda in human form had white hair and was described as cold like Vergil but annoying like Dante. Sounds like Nero to me.
And you say things as if Sparda would willingly reincarnate himself. Reincarnation is not a willful thing, it just happens. The reincarnate person has no control over it. And you also lose your memories/experiences of your past life.
Agnus had most likely been with the Order for a long time if he'd been able to create so many demons and do so much research. That would obviously take a long time-span, so that debunks the theory of Nero being an experiment.
If Nero's DT ghost wasn't blue, no one would say it was Vergil's. Just because it has a blue tint doesn't mean it's Vergil's DT. Look at it, the design except for the arm sheath is completely different. You can't say it's wearing Nelo's armor either, because it's not. It's too angular, and the horns are too screwed up.
And I think you're letting your hate for Nero get in the way of some of your judgment. Such as the fact that "Sparda wouldn't get reincarnated as some whiny emo kid". Dude, the guy is f*cking 17. Cut him some slack, he's not mature yet. That's the part that f*cking ticks me off SO MUCH. Nero is YOUNGER than Dante, so OF COURSE he's not going to be as cool! Get the hell over it, people.
Berial is most likely talking about Sparda. Nero is nothing like Vergil in his DMC1 incarnation. Not at all.
DreadnoughtDT;262089 said:
...This is your rebuttal? :/
As for this:
There actually is. If you're going to look at all sources, you can't discount the novels. Capcom did endorse them, unfortunately.
Capcom endorsed the novels? ._.
That's bad for people like me...
And I'm sorry about that really immature comment. I've not been exactly myself today...
That's bad for people like me...
And I'm sorry about that really immature comment. I've not been exactly myself today...
DreadnoughtDT;262089 said:Okay, then again, you don't have much evidence to support your theories either. There isn't much evidence for ANY theory.
Sure I do, I just didn't present it because I wasn't promoting any theory. I was showing how the reincarnation theory is too faulty to be reasonable. Some theories are more reasonable than others, such as the clone and offspring theories, even the split Vergil and Psychodrama theory. (Last one is mine).
BTW, Sparda in human form had white hair and was described as cold like Vergil but annoying like Dante. Sounds like Nero to me.
I don't believe Sparda was ever called annoying, and Nero himself isn't cold at all. He's more like Dante than any other character. None of this points to Sparda, except the white hair, which the twins also share.
And you say things as if Sparda would willingly reincarnate himself. Reincarnation is not a willful thing, it just happens. The reincarnate person has no control over it. And you also lose your memories/experiences of your past life.
So he just randomly happened to reincarnate into his own bloodline on and island where they worshipped him and somehow got demonic powers?
My point was exactly that reincarnation doesn't work like that. This is the most damning fact against the theory, because it is basically impossible that Sparda would reincarnate as Nero if he had no choice in the matter. If reincarnation does exist in DMC, then Sparda is probably a regular person, who looks nothing like the twins and has no powers. He could even be an animal for all we know, or reincarnated back in Hell.
Agnus had most likely been with the Order for a long time if he'd been able to create so many demons and do so much research. That would obviously take a long time-span, so that debunks the theory of Nero being an experiment.
No, the research didn't take that long. It is implied in the game that it took a few years, after they found the Yamato and shards of Nelo's armor. This means that it has to happen some time after DMC1, at which point Nero was already alive. It is therefore highly likely that Agnus was not the head of research and development at that time, while Sanctus was still the leader of the cult. It doesn't debunk anything.
If Nero's DT ghost wasn't blue, no one would say it was Vergil's. Just because it has a blue tint doesn't mean it's Vergil's DT. Look at it, the design except for the arm sheath is completely different. You can't say it's wearing Nelo's armor either, because it's not. It's too angular, and the horns are too screwed up.
Yeah, the fact that it is blue is a huge hint that it is Vergil, as that is his established motif. It also has a variation of Vergil's leitmotif upon being revealed in the game, the sheath, summoned swords, similar type of horns, etc. Even the fuly body of it, revealed in concept art has the same structure as Vergil's DT in DMC3, with the buttwings. And no, it doesn't look like Nelo, because Nelo is not a natural DT. It looks exactly like a development of the DMC3 DT, where the Mozart hair has turned into a helmet and horns. Go compare them if you want.
One thing is for sure, it looks absolutely nothing like Sparda in any way whatsoever.
And I think you're letting your hate for Nero get in the way of some of your judgment. Such as the fact that "Sparda wouldn't get reincarnated as some whiny emo kid". Dude, the guy is f*cking 17. Cut him some slack, he's not mature yet. That's the part that f*cking ticks me off SO MUCH. Nero is YOUNGER than Dante, so OF COURSE he's not going to be as cool! Get the hell over it, people.
Believe me, I'm not. I'm just using actual logic and reason to guide me. The fact is that, even if Nero is just a kid, it would be a very stupid move for Capcom to choose him as a reincarnation of Sparda. He embodies none of Sparda's power or nobility, he is totally unexplained, and he has basically no connection to Sparda aside from having a girlfriend (I have one too, I don't think that makes me Sparda)
Berial is most likely talking about Sparda. Nero is nothing like Vergil in his DMC1 incarnation. Not at all.
It is more likely he is talking about Sparda, but it could be either. Berial would have met Vergil in Hell, not in DMC1. In any case, it isn't really evidence for Nero being like Sparda.
So, the theory isn't looking so good. I really don't se the big deal with him being offspring of Vergil. It is fairly likely that Sanctus got some DNA off Vergil when he came to Fortuna and made Nero, somehow, either as an example of what Sparda would have been like or in preparation for his dastardly plans.
Edit: BTW, I'm using the novels, but only for hints about what Capcom was trying to do in DMC4. I don't take them as canonical with respect to the rest of the series. The fact of the matter is just that Capcom took things out of the game or failed to include pieces of info that would have cleared this up. The whole game is like focused on Vergil, and they even pulled him as the last minute, supposedly.
You guys both have convincing arguments. But I guess we'll just have to wait and see.
I'm not sure if CAPCOM would endorse the novel and then in the next game go back on all the evidence in it that Vergil's Nero's father, but then again, this is CAPCOM we're talking about... ¬_¬
I'm not sure if CAPCOM would endorse the novel and then in the next game go back on all the evidence in it that Vergil's Nero's father, but then again, this is CAPCOM we're talking about... ¬_¬
Capcom can be dickheads sometimes. >.>
And moseslmpg, you do have some convincing arguments. However, I'd rather stick with my theory.
And see, the thing about Nero being Vergil's son is a big deal because Vergil would never do that. It would make him weak, and he only wanted to be strong. Having a child, showing love to a human woman, would be weakness. In fact, love is mankind's biggest weakness. It's what makes us human, and Vergil wanted to be a demon through and through. Therefore, no weakness, and certainly no love.
And moseslmpg, you do have some convincing arguments. However, I'd rather stick with my theory.
And see, the thing about Nero being Vergil's son is a big deal because Vergil would never do that. It would make him weak, and he only wanted to be strong. Having a child, showing love to a human woman, would be weakness. In fact, love is mankind's biggest weakness. It's what makes us human, and Vergil wanted to be a demon through and through. Therefore, no weakness, and certainly no love.
Uh, first of all, you don't have to love someone to have a kid with them. Secondly, love isn't a weakness in real life or in DMC. And thirdly, like I said, Nero could simply have been created from Vergil's DNA.
I agree it is very unlikely that he has a relationship and a child, but it is more unlikely that Nero is Sparda's third son or Sparda himself. That's why I see the clone theory as the most reasonable intracanonical explanation for his existence, as well as possible the split Vergil theory. The psychodrama theory, the "it was all just a dream" explanation, is the best explanation for DMC4 in general, I'd say, since it is so out there.
If Capcom is smart, they will leave Sparda out of things. You don't cut open the goose that lays the golden eggs, if you know what I mean.
Edit: I think the reason that no theory can really explain everything is because Capcom didn't include enough evidence in the game, maybe as an attempt to look clever. They could come out of left field and say Nero is an alien from planet Mars for all we know, but given what we have now, some theories are more valid than others.
I agree it is very unlikely that he has a relationship and a child, but it is more unlikely that Nero is Sparda's third son or Sparda himself. That's why I see the clone theory as the most reasonable intracanonical explanation for his existence, as well as possible the split Vergil theory. The psychodrama theory, the "it was all just a dream" explanation, is the best explanation for DMC4 in general, I'd say, since it is so out there.
If Capcom is smart, they will leave Sparda out of things. You don't cut open the goose that lays the golden eggs, if you know what I mean.
Edit: I think the reason that no theory can really explain everything is because Capcom didn't include enough evidence in the game, maybe as an attempt to look clever. They could come out of left field and say Nero is an alien from planet Mars for all we know, but given what we have now, some theories are more valid than others.
If DMC4 never happened, that'll be a REALLY big indication to me to stop playing the DMC series. Because seriously... That's a bit absurd.
Psychodrama... Pfft. Not gonna happen.
Psychodrama... Pfft. Not gonna happen.
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