and that's another thing I liked about their confrontations: yeah they're deadly swordfight duels, but every time before it starts, they're like doing a typical bickering between brothers, with their sarcastic banters, kinda like the same I used to do with my little bro when I was younger, which adds to the characterization of their brotherly rivalish relationship)
I guess that's where you and I differ immensely on how we view the outcome of the story.
For me, the constant batter and lack of any real motive just doesn't warrant these over-dramatic confrontations in the rain, or in the Underworld, and absolutely doesn't warrant the suicidally-serious tone the narrative is trying to pull towards the climax.
I would be fine if between the banter and immaturity, some more was revealed about
why Dante and Vergil are fighting (beside the game constantly hammering the "DER, SIBLING RIVALRY" card in the audience's faces), maybe a legitimate reference to what happened between them as children, or even their relationship to Eva.
But we don't get anything. It's just stylish fights without any real consequence or narrative weight, all tumbling down on a final confrontation that seems to come out of almost nowhere, and barely escalates past the nonsensical fighting we got in the
last two boss fights.
As for the third one, he's more aware there, witnessing Lady's personal family struggle with Arkham and his evil deeds made him care more about the concept of family, about what's right and what's wrong. It's not a party anymore, he knows it and he gets in the battle more determined than he was in both the first and the second (Vergil instead, kinda follows an opposite direction: more focused in the first fight, more mistakenly reckless in the last one).
That's literally what bothers me the most.
Dante becoming "more aware" of familial importance because of Lady and Arkham's relationship doesn't have any real relevance because
we have no idea what kind of relationship him and Vergil had before the game.
The nature of the two brothers' relationship is never defined outside of "they like fighting...A LOT." We don't know if it's always been this way between them, or even if anything
caused them to start this trend of fighting each other on sight in the first place. The two of them are just thrown together in senseless fight scenes for the sake of building up a final duel that never had any real emotional build to begin with, and the writer shoe-horning that sentimental scene with Lady in an attempt to give Dante some poorly-implemented means of "taking the higher road and being the better brother" completely contradicts his behavior
and his eagerness to fight Vergil for the entirety of the game up till that point.
That plot-point with Lady is there, it exists...I'm not denying it. I'm just saying that it doesn't work, and sticks out like a sore thumb when neither brother has had any real "familial ties" or "emotional draw" towards each other. They're not rivals for any real reason, they're not sworn enemies because of any real reason, and they aren't "spurned siblings fighting out their long-standing quarrel" with each other, because there IS no explained quarrel, and they're just constantly at odds with each other because the game simply says so.
Every battle is a step, so every battle is significant and acts as part of the build-up to the last one (being an action game, I find this to be the best kind of build-up to the final showdown for this type of game). Basically, the whole game build up to the final fight.
And that's my problem, as stated above. That's an extremely poor route for a narrative to take, especially when between the fights themselves, there isn't any real substance or narrative drive at all.
It doesn't matter how flashy, dramatic, or "epic" a fight looks and feels, if the consequences or narrative purpose sandwiched between the fight scenes like narrative cement doesn't hold it together. All you have are a bunch of empty, shallow, but nonetheless well-choreographed fight scenes without any weight to them.
It embodies everything I hate about
DMC3: it's style without a single grain of substance...substance that this story desperately needed if it was going to take its story so unbearably-seriously.
It's no secret Vergil doesn't really hold human values and emotions in high regard. Anyway, I covered it in my post waaaaaay back then during that flame war discussion about Vergil in the DmCDE thread.
I was talking mainly about your claim about Vergil holding Dante's beliefs about humans in low regard. From what I understand, he only seemed to protest Dante as the weaker, less ambitious brother...unworthy of the Sparda bloodline. How he hates the way that Dante views humans is something I swear he never vocalizes or alludes to at all in-game....
....probably because Dante himself never once vocalizes or alludes to how he feels about humans in-game, despite all the wisps of head-canon smoke I keep squinting through from people about "how Dante
BUR-LIIIEVES in humanity". He barely interacts or shows any kind of interest in humans whatsoever.
It's not like Alucard from
Hellsing, who constantly states that he views humans as ultimately superior to vampires in every way, as the "stronger" race, and as the "worthier race." Dante seems to keep his passion circulated around three things: fighting, pizza, and Eva.
I have yet to see him interact or even speak on behalf of humanity. Hell, even New Dante managed to defend their right to be free in the latter half of
DmC...saying that Vergil had "no right to decide the fate of so many", and openly protesting over them being herded into subjectivity.
Meh. If you say so. I disagree on everything.
Good, good...
That's what I like to hear. That's what I'm hear for. To disagree in a friendly fashion and casually debate.
Especially the last phrase, I felt exactly that way in DmC. I found the whole Dante vs Vergil confrontation in DmC to hold a lot less weight than in DMC3, felt kinda shoehorned and rushed, as if the devs thought they HAD to put Dante against Vergil, because it was done in DMC1 and 3.
See, that's something I noticed with
a lot of people. It seems like everyone's under the impression that Dante and Vergil's conflict just sporadically starts at the end of the game.
I don't find this to be the case at all. To me, it was something that had been brewing throughout the game.
Dante and Vergil cooperate seamlessly in the beginning, and trust the "brains vs brawn" relationship that they have. But as the plot continues, they begin to find quarrelsome, opposing traits in one another.
During Mundus' Siege of the Order's Headquarters, Vergil displays how selfish he really is, and how salvaging his own work outweighs the safety of his human comerades. You can even hear it in the way he talks: "If they get their hands on that data, everything I've worked for will be for nothing." He says everything,
"I've worked for", not "we've worked for"...implying that he prizes himself as the Order's most valuable asset, and only his life and contributions of any significance. Dante objects to this behavior profoundly, hollering at Vergil that he's wasting time and endangering everyone, to which Vergil replies:
"Then MAKE time, Dante!"
And not only does he fail to show any interest in Kat's safety when she's being held hostage, he goes as far as to recommend abandoning her for the salvation of their plans. Dante contrasts with him by prioritizing Kat's retrieval above all other things...even the mission at hand.
Incidents like these, the way both brothers react to Lillith's Assassination---and the way Vergil justifies it----are just a few of several moments.
Vergil turning "evil" at the end wasn't any kind of plot twist. It was sprinkled throughout the narrative, breadcrumbs paving the road down to his and Dante's ultimate confrontation. They had fought and argued with each other before, but they took action against one another when their differences put them at too far odds with each other.
Their relationship is a lot like Xavier and Erik's relationship in
X-Men: First Class.
They get along initially, but there are subtle hints about what path each character will take in the events to come....hints that the characters themselves become aware of, and watch as they bloom into conflict. It's the kind of relationship that Dante and Vergil had in
DmC, and absolutely
LACKED in
DMC3.
That's what effective build-up is. Dante and Vergil standing around in the rain, fighting a battle more vague and poorly-implemented than
The Last Airbender is hardly build-up for a climax...
We have a word for that in the industry. It's called abysmal writing.
It's not like it's a bad thing in itself, but to me, didn't feel properly set up. Not to mention what Vergil comes off as in the Mundus fight... that's hardly a good build-up, as I see it. As cool as the beginning of the fight is (you know, when they face each other with that music in the background).
I'd argue the exact same for the Dante and Vergil fights in
DMC3, what with the dialogue and lack of any pre-made tension or narrative build....but you already know that story.
The only part I'll agree with is that the fight in
DmC didn't look as cool. But that's what happens when you
don't have the beautiful assets of Yuji Shimomura and U'Den Flame Works.
But again, to each his own.To be clear, I didn't want to start a bickering with you (like Dante and Vergil, eh? LOL). Just wanted to express my view on it (not saying you didn't want to do the same). It's not that I don't find your points valid, or legitimate (hopefully the sentiment is mutual), I'm sorry if I came across that way, it's just that I don't see it that way, just as much as you don't see it my way. I mean, in the end, what're you gonna do?
Foxy, boy, this isn't bickering. The kind of relentless insulting and shrieking I have to do with certain individuals on this site is "bickering."
This is is us having a casual, but invested debate on something we like talking about. We're both making points, civil in tone, addressing each others' points, and actually getting somewhere with our discussion.
It's the kind of conversation I like having, and the kind I wish I had more often on these forums...but don't.