Let's Talk About That Combat! DMC & DmC.

[ChaserTech]

As someone who enjoys both, I'll be the first to say that DmC's combat isn't as in-depth as DMC4's. I play it in the same context as a pseudo-sequel to Heavenly Sword or Enslaved: Odyssey to the West. In terms of actual Devil May Cry games that embody the original style, I prefer DMC4.

Tbh, you're not the first one to say that.

Tons of people think the same thing when it comes to comparing DmC with DMC4. But to be quite honest about it, the people who claim DmC has more depth than DMC4 are the ones who never really sat down and studied all of the hidden mechanics that DMC4 has to offer.

I guess a lot of people think that more weapons = more depth, which isn't true at all. However it's understandable why people would make that assumption.

 

[DragonMaster2010]

Coming from someone who is actively into action games, I'm just gonna dive right in and explain why technical DMC players think DmC isn't as complex as what people think it is compared to DMC4.

DmC has a lot of variety when it comes to weaponry but it's main problem is that you can't do too much with the weapons that are given to you in a technical way. And seeing how you can't position yourself as well relative to the enemy you're comboing, it limits you quite a bit. In fact, there are times where if you JC an enemy in DmC, it will reset the enemy in a certain position. Let me show you what I mean.

In this video, I'm JCing against a Frost while using Rebellion, Lucifer, and Gilgamesh. I'm positioning myself so I'm going above and below the enemy using Double weapon switching with rebellion/lucifer and guard cancelling aerial rave. The enemy doesn't reset so I have to worry about my positioning. And because of that I can do things like this:

Here, I'm JCing the last hit of aerial rave and immediately using Jealousy to stop the Frost in midair. The enemy keeps it's momentum from the aerial rave AFTER I jump cancelled. But in DmC, you have moves like Helm Breaker, Fireworks, Aerial Rave (last hit), and Showdown, which have different properties when it the hit connects but since JCing resets enemies velocities, it counts as a "pointless JC". Even Dante's Calibur in DmC was patched so that the enemy resets it's ENTIRE POSITION above you when you use it, enabling you to JC at a certain window compared to before.

This alone causes a lot of problems when you want to do certain setups that requires you to JC right after hitting the enemy away. And seeing how Dante's main options for setups are Kablooey and Revenant, I don't see much potential for him. (And yes, I have seen recent DmC vids by michellgun)

There's also A LOT of other things I can go over on why DmC lack as much depth compared to DMC4 but I'm going to keep it short with this post. However if you want me to keep explaining, I can.

But when you put that way, I still don't consider DMC4 better then DmC in gameplay because of those reasons.

DMC4 I will admit has fun gameplay, however I don't want to spend years upon years learning how to button mash twenty buttons at a time just to do cool combos like in combo vids. For me it's a waste of my time and honestly a waste of fun. While in DmC it's allowable for me to be able to do combos with a small amount of button pressing and an easier mechanic scheme to follow. For a master DMC player, this will breed a problem, but for a normal player like me who wants to do some cool combos without having to read a dictionary on DMC4 combo rules, it's a more refreshing experience.

I don't speak for everyone, but I do speak for myself and in my experience, DMC4 seems to only be fun for those who are willing to put hours upon hours of time into the game itself. To me, it just seems like a big hassle and honestly a chore to be done. I don't mind others enjoyment of it, but I really don't have that kind of patience for gaming to that degree that I, figuratively, sell my soul to know how to JC correctly.

The only issue I see in DmC's jump canceling is the timing and attack hit box being slower in JC compared to DMC4, but again, I'm not gonna be throwing out attacks left and right like master players would just to have a good time. And just because I can't do those cool moves, doesn't mean I can't say DmC is still better, because I, and others, can.

That fact that it's difficult to do the over the top combos, thus lowering the replayability (at least for me) of even bothering to play it again is all the reason I need to still say DmC is the better game to play compared to DMC4..

 

[ChaserTech]

But when you put that way, I still don't consider DMC4 better then DmC in gameplay because of those reasons.

DMC4 I will admit has fun gameplay, however I don't want to spend years upon years learning how to button mash twenty buttons at a time just to do cool combos like in combo vids. For me it's a waste of my time and honestly a waste of fun. While in DmC it's allowable for me to be able to do combos with a small amount of button pressing and an easier mechanic scheme to follow. For a master DMC player, this will breed a problem, but for a normal player like me who wants to do some cool combos without having to read a dictionary on DMC4 combo rules, it's a more refreshing experience.

I don't speak for everyone, but I do speak for myself and in my experience, DMC4 seems to only be fun for those who are willing to put hours upon hours of time into the game itself. To me, it just seems like a big hassle and honestly a chore to be done. I don't mind others enjoyment of it, but I really don't have that kind of patience for gaming to that degree that I, figuratively, sell my soul to know how to JC correctly.

The only issue I see in DmC's jump canceling is the timing and attack hit box being slower in JC compared to DMC4, but again, I'm not gonna be throwing out attacks left and right like master players would just to have a good time. And just because I can't do those cool moves, doesn't mean I can't say DmC is still better, because I, and others, can.

I'm talking about combat depth. Not just combat in general.

When I talk about combat depth, I'm talking about what you can do with the combat system by utilizing every advanced technique or game mechanic that the game has to offer under a normal playing field (no mods). This is what makes most action games have deep gameplay.

That fact that it's difficult to do the over the top combos, thus lowering the replayability (at least for me) of even bothering to play it again is all the reason I need to still say DmC is the better game to play compared to DMC4..

The main reason why it's difficult to do over the top combos, as you put it, is because they require you to have a good amount of skill to execute them. And because of this, it makes it rewarding for you to actually pull off those combos. If I play a game that's just holding my hand while I'm comboing an enemy, I feel as if I'm not accomplish anything on my own and it makes it feel as if my skills aren't being tested. But if I'm playing a game that is giving me all of my tools to do what I need to do, then it's only up to me to apply my skills to the game while not having to rely on dumbed down mechanics.

 

[DragonMaster2010]

I'm talking about combat depth. Not just combat in general.

When I talk about combat depth, I'm talking about what you can do with the combat system by utilizing every advanced technique or game mechanic that the game has to offer under a normal playing field (no mods). This is what makes most action games have deep gameplay

Again, that's subjective because I don't WANT to have to press 100 buttons just to have fun with a game. Since when did I need to button mash all these buttons just to have fun with all the weapons and techniques? To me, that's not fun, that's homework and school on a controller.

The main reason why it's difficult to do over the top combos, as you put it, is because they require you to have a good amount of skill to execute them. And because of this, it makes it rewarding for you to actually pull off those combos. If I play a game that's just holding my hand while I'm comboing an enemy, I feel as if I'm not accomplish anything on my own and it makes it feel as if my skills aren't being tested. But if I'm playing a game that is giving me all of my tools to do what I need to do, then it's only up to me to apply my skills to the game while not having to rely on dumbed down mechanics.

That may be for you, but for me, like I said previously, I'm not about to spend half my life dedicated to learn how to button mash 100 buttons just to do one combo that I'm only ever gonna end up using on ONE enemy at a time. I could care less about what a master player considers fun. All I care about is what I, as a gamer, consider fun, and for me, DMC4 is just a chore that I don't have time for.

You can try and try to bring up how much depth you say DMC4 has, but all I see is tedious button mashing all over a controller just to do one move. It's ridiculous and often times unnecessary in my opinion.

You can say DmC holds your hand, but really I just find it fun to play. And if DmC is holding your hand gameplay, then Nero's gameplay is pretty much mothering you on a her breast milk.

DmC is fun because it's more open for players who just wanna have fun killing demons for the fun of it and not spend years upon years perfecting one measly canceling move.

 

[ChaserTech]

Again, that's subjective because I don't WANT to have to press 100 buttons just to have fun with a game. Since when did I need to button mash all these buttons just to have fun with all the weapons and techniques? To me, that's not fun, that's homework and school on a controller.

Uh, how is the depth of DmC's combat system subjective?

That may be for you, but for me, like I said previously, I'm not about to spend half my life dedicated to learn how to button mash 100 buttons just to do one combo that I'm only ever gonna end up using on ONE enemy at a time. I could care less about what a master player considers fun. All I care about is what I, as a gamer, consider fun, and for me, DMC4 is just a chore that I don't have time for.

Well if you don't want to put effort into learning what you can do with a combat system, that's not really my problem.
As stated before, I'm talking about combat mechanics and I'm discussing why DmC lacks depth. If you don't have the knowledge of DMC4's depth and DmC's depth, basing your arguments with opinions as your evidence won't really help in a discussion about explaining why each game has a lot of depth behind the core mechanics of the game.

You can try and try to bring up how much depth you say DMC4 has, but all I see is tedious button mashing all over a controller just to do one move. It's ridiculous and often times unnecessary in my opinion.

This further proves my point on your questionable knowledge about DMC4. If you don't know what's going on, then I'm afraid your points about combat depth are kinda null. Sorry. :[

You can say DmC holds your hand, but really I just find it fun to play. And if DmC is holding your hand gameplay, then Nero's gameplay is pretty much mothering you on a her breast milk.

Execpt I'm not just talking about Nero. I'm talking about both games with both characters when it comes to how deep the combat mechanics are. I'm not talking about overall gameplay.

For combat depth, it needs to have unique technical features. A variety of attacks is obviously necessary, but there needs to be more than just a bunch of different ways to hit your enemies. Under all the damage needs to lie a layer of depth dependent on the options you're provided. The main idea is that there needs to be something in the gameplay that makes it feel like it's has some strategic and/or technical bonus, to crucially separate itself from mentally unappealing button mashers. And DmC just falls in that awkward phase where there is depth but it is held back to ensure that the player can easily dive into the combat system, thus lowering it's high skill capacity immensely. I'm not talking about having fun or about gameplay experiences

I don't know if I can be any more clear about this.

Also, just to clarify, there is no button mashing in DMC4 that's being done in combo videos. Everything that you see are controlled button inputs that players practiced hours upon hours on just to execute their combos correctly. Button mashing is random.

 

[Jack500]

Uh, how is the depth of DmC's combat system subjective?




Well if you don't want to put effort into learning what you can do with a combat system, that's not really my problem.
As stated before, I'm talking about combat mechanics and I'm discussing why DmC lacks depth. If you don't have the knowledge of DMC4's depth and DmC's depth, basing your arguments with opinions as your evidence won't really help in a discussion about explaining why each game has a lot of depth behind the core mechanics of the game.





This further proves my point on your questionable knowledge about DMC4. If you don't know what's going on, then I'm afraid your points about combat depth are kinda null. Sorry. :[





Execpt I'm not just talking about Nero. I'm talking about both games with both characters when it comes to how deep the combat mechanics are. I'm not talking about overall gameplay.

For combat depth, it needs to have unique technical features. A variety of attacks is obviously necessary, but there needs to be more than just a bunch of different ways to hit your enemies. Under all the damage needs to lie a layer of depth dependent on the options you're provided. The main idea is that there needs to be something in the gameplay that makes it feel like it's has some strategic and/or technical bonus, to crucially separate itself from mentally unappealing button mashers. And DmC just falls in that awkward phase where there is depth but it is held back to ensure that the player can easily dive into the combat system, thus lowering it's high skill capacity immensely. I'm not talking about having fun or about gameplay experiences

I don't know if I can be any more clear about this.

Also, just to clarify, there is no button mashing in DMC4 that's being done in combo videos. Everything that you see are controlled button inputs that players practiced hours upon hours on just to execute their combos correctly. Button mashing is random.

You completely missed the point, he's not saying DmC has more Depth than DMC 4, he's saying DmC is more fun to play for him

 

[ChaserTech]

You completely missed the point, he's not saying DmC has more Depth than DMC 4, he's saying DmC is more fun to play for him

And he missed my point, which is DmC lacks combat depth.

I don't really care if he finds DmC fun or not, that's not what I was discussing about. I'm not trying to be rude about it though.

 

[MephistoCarnival]

This is again why DMC games put more effort into gameplay and less on story development while DmC does the opposite.
Now it's a personal matter for WHAT you prefer. I play them both because I like them for both COMBOS and STORY.It isn't that hard to be pleased without having to diss the cons of a game. (this goes both ways)

@Tech and DragonMaster
You were discussing different points of view from the beginning though >_> ...

 

[ChaserTech]

@Tech and DragonMaster
You were discussing different points of view from the beginning though >_> ...

Technically, DragonMaster responded to my post about why DmC isn't as complex as DMC4 with how fun each game is, when I wasn't talking about that at all. And I continued to say that I was talking about combat depth.

 

[ef9dante_oSsshea]

Lmao button mashing oh if only it was that easy i could have saved two and a half years of my time i spent mastering and honing my jc and combat skills in DMC4 and focused on something else lol

 

[DragonMaster2010]

And he missed my point, which is DmC lacks combat depth.

I don't really care if he finds DmC fun or not, that's not what I was discussing about. I'm not trying to be rude about it though.

And you missed everything I said in that
I. DON'T. CARE. About whatever depth DMC4 may have. That doesn't, to me, make it a better game, but rather a bigger burden to play, where as DmC is fun for me because it's more free to play.

Lmao button mashing oh if only it was that easy i could have saved two and a half years of my time i spent mastering and honing my jc and combat skills in DMC4 and focused on something else lol

When I said button mashing, I mean mashing twelve buttons to do one move, and mashing 20 to do 2, metaphorically speaking.

 

[ef9dante_oSsshea]

ah cool fair enough

 

[SSSSwagmasterMLGDmCplaya]

And you missed everything I said in that
I. DON'T. CARE. About whatever depth DMC4 may have. That doesn't, to me, make it a better game, but rather a bigger burden to play, where as DmC is fun for me because it's more free to play.

And you missed everything Chaser said. He was talking about combat, you came and brought up what game is more fun to you.

When I said button mashing, I mean mashing twelve buttons to do one move, and mashing 20 to do 2, metaphorically speaking.

At least you corrected yourself because:

The act of repeatedly pressing random buttons on a video game controller in hopes of executing attacks and/or other various motions found in video games.
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/button_mashing

I don't get how people can minimize the value of stylish combat/gameplay, the core of the series that basically created its own genre and kept improving upon it overall (DMC2 and DmC excluded, even though these games still brought new things to the table).

 

[Demi-fiend]

I don't get how people can minimize the value of stylish combat/gameplay

I get it; it's really easy to do when you no longer give a damn.

 

[SSSSwagmasterMLGDmCplaya]

I get it; it's really easy to do when you no longer give a damn.

So you don't give a damn about combat in the series?

 

[Demi-fiend]

Eh... I enjoy the combat -- but do I actually care? No.

 

[SSSSwagmasterMLGDmCplaya]

Eh... I enjoy the combat -- but do I actually care? No.

Nice. So you don't care about the combat, yet you post on various topics on combat (this one included). Do you care only when the situation suits you?

 

[Demi-fiend]

I care when a person says that one is better than the other.

But I don't care all that much when playing.

Like Dragonmaster said, I play to have fun, not because I'm so into it that it means everything to me.

 

[DragonMaster2010]

And you missed everything Chaser said. He was talking about combat, you came and brought up what game is more fun to you.

No he spoke on WHY DmC wasn't as good with gameplay as DMC4, when really it's all subjective. Just because one person says DMC4 is better, doesn't mean it's universal truth.

At least you corrected yourself because:

I'm sorry, how do you JC? rapidly pressing jump after an attack. Button mashing the jump button mixed with about thirty other buttons.

I don't get how people can minimize the value of stylish combat/gameplay, the core of the series that basically created its own genre and kept improving upon it overall (DMC2 and DmC excluded, even though these games still brought new things to the table).

Like I really care. I still like playing DmC so I don't care what anyone else would think in that disregard because, low and behold, I like playing fun games, and for me, DMC4 doesn't do it for me.

If you prefer DMC4, woo hoo to you, but for me, it's terrible.

That's it. End of story.

 

[Demi-fiend]

Yup. Terrible.

And I'm done here.

... For now.